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On The Sad State of Macintosh Hardware (rogueamoeba.com)
Quentin Carnicelli, the chief technology officer at Rogue Amoeba, a widely-reputed firm that produces several audio software for Apple's desktop operating system: With Apple recently releasing their first developer beta of MacOS 10.14 (Mojave), we've been installing it on various test machines to test our apps. The inevitable march of technology means Mojave won't install on all of our older hardware. There's no shock there, but the situation is rather distressing when it comes to spending money to purchase new equipment. Here is the situation, as reported by the wonderful MacRumor's Buyers Guide: At the time of the writing, with the exception of the $5,000 iMac Pro, no Macintosh has been updated at all in the past year. Here are the last updates to the entire line of Macs: iMac Pro: 182 days ago, iMac: 374 days ago, MacBook: 374 days ago, MacBook Air: 374 days ago, MacBook Pro: 374 days ago, Mac Pro: 436 days ago, and Mac Mini: 1337 days ago.
Worse, most of these counts are misleading, with the machines not seeing a true update in quite a bit longer. The Mac Mini hasn't seen an update of any kind in almost 4 years (nor, for that matter, a price drop). The once-solid Mac Pro was replaced by the dead-end cylindrical version all the way back in 2012, which was then left to stagnate. I don't even want to get started on the MacBook Pro's questionable keyboard, or the MacBook's sole port (USB-C which must also be used to provide power). It's very difficult to recommend much from the current crop of Macs to customers, and that's deeply worrisome to us, as a Mac-based software company.
Worse, most of these counts are misleading, with the machines not seeing a true update in quite a bit longer. The Mac Mini hasn't seen an update of any kind in almost 4 years (nor, for that matter, a price drop). The once-solid Mac Pro was replaced by the dead-end cylindrical version all the way back in 2012, which was then left to stagnate. I don't even want to get started on the MacBook Pro's questionable keyboard, or the MacBook's sole port (USB-C which must also be used to provide power). It's very difficult to recommend much from the current crop of Macs to customers, and that's deeply worrisome to us, as a Mac-based software company.
And it runs just fine.
I expect your Macs run just fine too.
What has happened is that you have fallen prey to Microsoft's planned obsolesce model of business. When you update your software, are you really providing changes that require more power or are you simply fiddling with shit like Microsoft is?
Moore's law has plateaued in recent years as has the need for faster computers absent some ground breaking, locally hosted AI. You really only need so much power to run a fucking spreadsheet...or audio software.
Except for the very, very few 'pro' products they've (reluctantly) released (and barely updated), they've basically given up on the Pro crowd, and are clearly only concentrating on 'gadget' devices for consumers, not meant for professionals (creators, etc.): iDevices, AppleTV, AppleWatch & HomePod.
AC comments get piped to
As a society, we have become obsessed with never-ending growth and progress. It's not good enough that a company provides jobs and turns a profit. It has to show "growth". It's not good enough that a given computer can perform all sorts of useful functions. It has to be reinvented as more powerful every 374 days.
I do agree that a Mac Mini should cost less now than it did over three years ago. But what's wrong with good enough? I recently went shopping for a new TV. I expected that with 4K TVs being common now, I should be able to pickup a 1920x1080 TV for a good price. I was wrong. I ended up making a deal on a 4K TV, even though I almost never watch anything in 4K.
I've owned every single model of Mac Pro, but enough is enough. I used to do music production and sound design primarily using Logic and Pro Tools on Mac Pros, but the last iteration was my breaking point. The juice just wasn't worth the squeeze any more, and I found much better tools for Windows (Cockos Reaper, Pro Tools, etc). After decades of loving the work-flow and support and quality, I just got the feeling Apple was jerking users around and just didn't care about the desktop platform any more. Happier now.
You are welcome on my lawn.
It's very difficult to recommend much from the current crop of Macs to customers, and that's deeply worrisome to us, as a Mac-based software company.
Apple's Mac division has really kind of gone of the rails in recent years. They've made multiple repeated bizarre design decisions and they seldom update their hardware. While is hasn't been all bad, it's getting hard to recommend the Mac to people I previously would have done so without hesitation. They cater to a fairly specific customer and that's fine but they aren't even doing a very good job of that anymore.
It's pretty clear that the focus of management is on the iPhone. Understandable but I think they are shooting themselves in the foot. A lot of the value proposition from Apple comes from the tight ecosystem integration. Without that it's not so compelling to buy an iPhone or an iPad. Honestly I don't see a lot of tight integration in ways that are useful to me.
I have a Mac Mini and I'm about to replace it but probably not with another Mac Mini and the way things are going not with any other type of Mac either. Apple just isn't investing in the Mac and if they cannot be bothered in spite of the massive cash hoard they have then why should I care either? Apple should be making the Mac the best type of PC available and they just aren't. They are nice enough but they're behind the technology curve at this point. I don't think they need to be bleeding edge but they aren't even close to the edge on PCs anymore. Either they are incompetent or they just can't be bothered and I tend to favor the later theory.
Is that real? $5000 for a laptop? That can't be right. The most expensive one I can find on their site is an absurd $2800.
[This post was written on a $200 laptop].
I don't respond to AC's.
Someone called it on these forums a LOOOONG time ago that Apple was trying to convert Macs into iOS devices. Hell, I think Jobs was still alive when that assertion was made and with iOS apps coming to Macs (which will likely become the ONLY way you'll get new Mac software soon since the Mac app store wooed sooo many iOS developers /sarcasm), we're seeing it come to realization and soon to past.
Damn shame that we'll have to look to Google or Microsoft soon for advancement in PCs especially considering that both of them believe in this "app store" philosophy too. Sigh....
Totally forgot about them. Sure, some useful little tools for some people, but really they are small potatoes. That said, this guy is somewhat right in what he says but my 2009 and 2011 iMacs are running fine. My only concern (and a big one too) is that at some point a future OS upgrade will not be compatible with the aging computers. That I why I avoid upgrading the OS.
http://www.acetonestudio.com
Apple is destroying one of their best markets. That is, people who use it for pro audio and also graphic workstations to some extent. The hardware compatibility silliness and lack of updates and support if pushing tons and tons of audio people away. I organize raves and electronic music shows. Apple machines used to be considered the premium choice for live performances and DJ software, but it has all changed in the last few years. For the first ever since laptops became a thing on stage, I've seen former die hard Apple users make the switch to Windows over the last couple years.
Apple has made it clear that they just don't care about professional media customers anymore, unless they are the kind that can buy $4000 of new gear every year. But even then, people are catching on that it's just not very cost effective anymore. Not to mention that Windows performance and stability has drastically improved too, making it a viable switch, that didn't used to be the case.
The $5,000 machine mentioned is the iMac Pro, a desktop. The $5,000 base model comes with pretty strong specs. 3.2GHz 8-core Xeon W, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Radeon Pro Vega 56, and a 27" 5k display.
iMac Pro is an unrepairable all-in-one "desktop" which Apple pushed as an alternative to their DOA Mac Pro.
Apples recent iPad commercial says it all.
Support Right To Repair Legislation.
That was many years ago.
I got something called a Message Pad 2100, that thing was an awesome wonder (ipad predecessor) invention that packed a whole lot of power for 1993, it packed a punch of 162 MHz, could talk, had a large touchscreen, could bring you to the internet, even wireless with the right PCMCIA card.
I'm no mac fan, especially not today - but back in its heydays with powerpc and a promising new architecture, those things were the beast within the graphics industry, nearly all printing & ad bureaus worth their salt had to have one.
Today - it's all about bling-bling, and looking gorgeous (because frankly, that part they got right). But they're expensive, old-tech consumables that you can basically throw away after a few years of use, because they won't support them anymore. And if you've seen a few experienced repair tech's videos on youtube - there are downright design-flaws that has been repeated thorough the production of the mac's the last 5-7 years.
Mac needs to find its roots again, when innovation and driving our world of tech forward actually meant something.
What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
Imagine a Mac with the newly announced 32 core Threadripper in an ATX case that can be fully upgraded. But instead we will get four core 16gb MBPs with inadequate ports again. They didn’t even announce hardware at WWDC because they are so weak at it.
Also the $5K imac pro sucks to thin / storage locked to the MB / over priced upgrades and it's hard to change the ram on your own.
And the T2 chip is chained off the DMI bus and not some of the open CPU pci-e lanes.
I'm using it to write this right no{Out of memory error}
Not just Apple really... but yes especially Apple. Companies seem to be very focused on a mobile first approach. Which is perfectly fine. The reality is that many of us still need mouse and/or keyboard and large screens for productive applications. And we probably don't need faster processing, or more RAM or much more storage so spec. stagnation is real in the desktop and laptop space.
Personally I would like to see better "docking" abilities for smartphones in hardware and software so you can just plop your phone down on a desk with a big monitor and keyboard/mouse and start working on a larger screen where you can get all the apps you need. And it would be good if it was much more seamless across android and iphone.
There is another level of creativity and productivity to be had if we can realize more of that future level of integration that has been the stuff of sci-fi for years.
We seem to be closer than ever, but the impediments are both the security of letting devices communicate more freely and the arbitrary divisions of proprietary software hardware stacks that keep our technology apart and makes it less useful than it could be.
The iMac Pro is a desktop machine. Still pretty overpriced of course.
Paul Lenhart writes words!
Dell / hp / others all do specs bumps / price drops over time. But apple still has 5400RPM hdds in the imacs.
Apple looks for ways to make system thinner and thinner and takes ports away.
The real issue here is Intel, not Apple. There is no point in updating any of Apple's computer line as long as Intel can't get their upgrade cycle running smoothly. Add in all the security flaws and you have another reason not to update anything.
Intel can announce all the crap they want and trickle out a small number of chips, but Apple won't jump on board until they can get mass quantities of CPUs...
Apple would be better off doing their own CPUs....
E
Eric Aitala
www.f1m.com
Now you got it. Stop crying. Psst... With PC's you could easily upgrade your hardware...
to crack the whip :(
Dear Apple,
Please spin off your laptop division. Anyone technical with a Mac won't buy crap from your store anyway, and the integration points with your iPhones aren't worth it. (Many of us use Android phones and use your laptops they understand Unix commands and because random system upgrades won't take us offline for half a day at a time.)
Thank you.
Signed,
Most of Your Customers
apple needs to let some like HP sell pro workstations that run mac os in areas where looks or forcing video cards to use TB is not an big deal.
HP does TB loop back cables to tie DP out into an TB add in card. But no apple has to say that looks like crap and we can't do it.
And you'll pay the 300% premium that we typically ask just for putting the Apple logo on it.
This is what you get when you look to Apple for products.
1 4m 571ll 7h3 m057 l337 w17h my m4c m1n1
Yes the locked people are using hackintoshs just to get hardware they need.
Next Macintosh will be a docking station that connects users' hardware to their virtual Macs in the cloud. Latency might suck for a few, but for 90% of Mac users with simple io devices like mice and other pointers being their only hardware, it would be fine.
What's a computer?
That is all.
NT
today's captcha: photon PHUK ME
The Quad Core Mac Mini I bought in 2012 is faster than any Mac Mini sold in 2018. Get it together, Apple.
Apple is showing courage by staying true to its roots. You must respect these pioneers who "Think Different" and don't get caught up in the wasteful, non-green cycle of upgrading their products.
I've been on Apple's platform since 1990, I saw it through the horrid time before Jobs' return. What did Jobs do? He made the mac cool again, sure, but he also made amazing machines with an amazing OS (OSX is the only reason I still am on the platform) and it was embraced by the pros - graphic designers, video editors, music producers... the performance, stability and workflow was unmatched. Now look at it. The only powerful machine they make is well out of the price range of all but the largest companies. The next step down is pathetic to say the least. Design and video professionals leave the platform in droves, why? because Apple made sad, underpowered machines covered in marking wank and focused on their gadgetry. Apple - shape up, or ship out. Unless you make a top end machine for $2500 that can be used in professional 4k video editing, motion graphics, audio production, graphic design, as well as support the huge potential of the mac gaming market (which never has been tapped but always should have been) - then go home and get lost. Make it modular, allow us to customize and upgrade our machines. Be good enough so we can love the mac again. Stop making $2000 facebook machines, make us machines we can be proud of. Unless you do this - my next machine will not be a mac, something I haven't done in 28 years.
incremental OS updates and things like 1st party battery service have to not arbitrarily drop support just because machines are 4-5 years old.
The latest iOS and OSX operating system updates both announced they would support exactly the same devices as the previous OS versions.
After all... Apple consumers are more than happy to to pay a premium to get outdated tech. Why would any company bother to invest in new products when the mindless masses continue to buy the old crap and paying full price?
At this point I wouldn't be too surprised if Apple is deliberately letting Mac hardware die off because they really are secretly working on moving the entire product line to a new ARM-based Apple chipset. I don't really think that's a good idea, and I'd much rather them just get out of the PC hardware business and make a "designed for MacOS" hardware spec that third parties could build in any form factor they wanted. Sadly Apple never seems to call me to see what I want.
But why in the hell would you pay a huge premium for something that is only "good enough"?
That only suggests that Apple people, such as yourself, care about your image more than substance.
The MacBook Air has been last updated a lot more than 374 days ago.
The last "update" was only a small 100MHz upgrade on the CPU of the low-end model but it's still the same old Broadwell CPU, the same used in the 2015 MacBook Air.
The last update to the MacBook Air was about 1150 days ago. And it's still using a TN display in 2018.
For the money Apple are asking for their computers, they can't possibly be proud of the specifications.
#DeleteFacebook
Dell / hp / others all do specs bumps / price drops over time. But apple still has 5400RPM hdds in the imacs.
Apple looks for ways to make system thinner and thinner and takes ports away.
For many front-office and home applications, a 5400 RPM HDD is completely sufficient; plus I would be VERY surprised if many Windows computers aren't still rockin' 5400 RPM HDDs, too...
And 3 years from now, it's still going to be the same machine, with the same $5000 price tag.
Even the new so-called Mac Pro iMac throttles itself before the fans spin up. This is laptop engineering, not desktop engineering and I fear they may have lost that expertise. As someone who depends on a Mac Pro 5,1, sorry but it looks like my next machine will be a Hackintosh. I don't need the latest bell and whistle on the desktop. What I do need are:
Something that I can depend upon for a high availability duty cycle
Using all 110 volts coming out of the wall
Spinning as many large hard drives as I can fit in the box
PCI cards for the SSD raid boot, swap file SSD, full size graphics card and communications card
And I'm no-one special.
Addressing that third point, Our German friends have a wonderful word: Kablesalat (literally cable salad). The current Mac Pro iMac and Coke Can Mac Pro force you to have multiple power bars nearby for brick on string external power supplies for all of your hard drives. Jesus? Who thought that was a practical idea for given how the cable transformers are made it's often impossible make full use of the sockets.
If the answer is put them all in a single raid box you're missing the point. Not everything needs to should be or should be a raid.
If anyone at Apple is listening: you're telling people who want to buy from you, and have options, and are sophisticated enough to be fault tolerant, to f*** off. Well, do as you will but it seems to me you should reserve that attitude for people who don't have options.
PS, can you make another seventeen inch laptop large enough to hold hard drives? Those new video cameras soak up a lot of hard drive space.
---- The above post was generated by the Turing Institute. Maybe.
Nobody asked for the fucking iMac Pro, just like nobody asked for the fucking trashcan Mac Pro.
It would be nice if the industrial designer was pushed aside and Apple let the engineers design computers and then order the industrial designer to make it look nice. It's currently the other way around and unfortunately engineers can't break the laws of physics.
#DeleteFacebook
I was pretty disappointed when I downloaded the 10.14 Developer Beta and was told that it wouldn't install on my Mac Pro....a machine with 12 logical cores running at 3.2 Ghz, 32 GB of RAM, 512 GB SSD, and a 3 GB ATI Radeon 7950 that's Metal compatible . The release notes say that support for this machine is coming in a later beta release, but who knows when this will happen.
I realize that my machine is about 6 years old, but Windows 10 and Ubuntu 18.04 run just fine on it. They really need to release this Mac Pro tower that's been rumored, because I sure don't want to move to the trash-can or an iMac.
If you post as Anonymous Coward, don't expect a reply.
I've owned nothing but Mac desktops since 1990, but I stopped taking software updates from them for all Apple products about two years ago. iPod, Mac Pro, Powerbook, AppleTV, iPhone, iWatch. For years I've advocated for Apple, particularly when they went with Unix underpinnings for the OS. But I'm done. The declining software quality has become too aggravating. And now that they've merged macOS and iOS groups, despite their claims this doesn't mean the end for the mac line, it really seems like it is.
That being said, I loathe the alternatives. I'm just going to keep using everything I've got until it won't work anymore and then find something to switch to that will hurt the least.
Ninety percent of the market uses Excel to work on small data sets.
I use Excel to keep track of my grocery bills, and sometimes to add up travel expenses when I take a trip.
I expect a faster processor would add *microseconds* to my free time.
People could move to Windows 10.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
margins on computers are small. profit margins on thousand dollar phones that break in a year however....
now go buy another iphone bitch.
People: Apple updates their hardware yearly to cause forced obsolescence, keep people on upgrade treadmills, and make shitloads of money.
Other people: OMG APPLE HASN'T UPDATED THE MACBOOK PRO IN 374 DAYS
Also the $5K imac pro sucks to thin / storage locked to the MB / over priced upgrades and it's hard to change the ram on your own.
And the T2 chip is chained off the DMI bus and not some of the open CPU pci-e lanes.
Because they dedicated the PCI lanes to Thunderbolt.
Still has 5400 RPM HDDs in the Mac minis too.
#DeleteFacebook
there's plenty of room to improve video editing, film production, computer programming, scientific research and even business finance. AMD's doing a brisk business with 16 and 32 core desktop processors. I don't see anything close to that on offer from Apple.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
On the flip-side, my custom built Hackintosh just absolutely screams. I was a purist for so long when it came to the hardware, but no more.
it kinda the way apple is, its the "state of affairs" of things. apple is knife focused on iOS devices. and mac is yea we do that to.
32GB ram laptops are not uncommon, even 64GB can be had... and now lenovo is pushing out a 128GB ram laptop apple? 16GB....
there is alot of people that need power, and apple is not paying attention to them. so they are moving to windows in most cases a few to linux
but most are going to windows 10, not becuase the love windows.. but because they can get better hardware.
I know this is controversial, but if Apple isn't going to care about the hardware any more, perhaps it's time it pulled out of the market and sold macOS as a standalone product for third party PCs. And if they don't want to support it, they can contract that out too, maybe even partner with someone like Canonical (who have a great track record on making a third party OS work on everything out of the box.) With Intel and AMD controlling the entire non-standardized part of the hardware chain it's easier than it's been since the early nineties to produce a single OS that'll work on everything anyway.
It's always been the OS, not the hardware, that's made me crave Macs, but I haven't owned one in over ten years because I just don't trust them with hardware any more, and can't get a Mac with a specification I'm comfortable with.
If they no longer even care, then it's time to let their platform blossom.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
The difference between a 5400 RPM spinner and SSD is like night and day. I guarantee you give people with spinners the option to upgrade to a SDD and 95% will.
-The Fake Woz
You wouldn't think so, but when I kit out a MacBook Pro with upgraded CPU and SSD, I'm told that it can be mine for the low, low price of CA$5,379.
F--k that noise.
Glued-together system, crappy butterfly-switch keyboard, stupid touchbar instead of actual keys, limited to 16GB, no Magsafe, no USB-A ports, no mini-DP or HDMI, no SD card slot, no option to self-upgrade RAM, storage or battery myself later and an opportunity to pay a couple of thousand dollars more than a comparably-configured non-Apple-branded machine? What a bargain! /s
I love my MBP 2010, but I have zero incentive to replace it with a new MBP.
I'm using them since 1998 but since the day the damn Quick Time X & Final Cut Pro X downgrade surfaced there was a unspoken slow retardation going on this platform, saying that this is also happening on the windows side. Already started to move all the good stuff to Linux, its not perfect buy hey no one is forcing me to reboot when watching porn.
I've been a mac user since 1984. My current laptop is a 2010 MacBook Air, which still feels like a solid machine. Of course, I can't upgrade to the latest macOS, and my MacBook is past the 5 year lifespan I originally expected. So what is next?
I use macOS and Ubuntu Linux on a daily basis. I never liked Windows, for reasons, and for years, all of the new software I've installed on my MacBook has been open source. And I'm increasingly using software that depends on OpenGL, which has been deprecated by macOS.
Up to now, I have been super happy with my MacBook -- the hardware is brilliant, and open source software mostly just works (I use homebrew). But that's no longer the case for what Apple currently offers. Although I consider the MacBook pro trackpad to be best in class, the keyboard issues are troubling, and the loss of OpenGL will be a show stopper. The MacBook Pro is no longer the premium, best in class laptop that it used to be, and is still priced as. Although I don't feel the need to run the very latest hardware, the lack of hardware updates on Mac computers is a signal that Apple doesn't give a shit, and you would be buying in to a dying ecosystem.
Suppose Windows 10 linux emulation supported graphics out of the box, so I could run X11 apps, Wayland apps, any of the desktop environments like KDE or Gnome, and OpenGL apps. And suppose I could disable all the Windows spyware. Then I'd seriously consider a Windows laptop. Microsoft just bought Github, so we can hope that they will eventually get a clue and fix these problems. But that's still years away, I would guess.
So I'm going to replace my old MacBook with a Linux ultrabook. Right now, the Dell XPS 13 Developer Edition looks like the overall best replacement for a 13" mac laptop. Other options I've looked at: System 76 Galago Pro and Purism Librem 13.
I have written a truly remarkable program which this sig is too small to contain.
95% of people will not know the difference, nor notice it in their general use.
On the Canadian Apple store the price for a 15 inch MacBook Pro with 2TB storage and a 3.1GHz CPU is $5,379. That's why I switched to PCs. The Windows Linux subsystem means that Windows 10 can approximate a Mac well enough that the huge gap in both price and performance means it was more than worthwhile to switch.
The scary thing is that a year or so ago when they were announcing these new macs with only one type of port and the silly touch bar Microsoft were announcing their new Surface Studio with dial controller and the MS presentation looked far more like the Apple of yesteryear while the Apple roll out looked more like an old-Microsoft one!
I realize that my machine is about 6 years old, ... I sure don't want to move to the trash-can or an iMac.
There is no point - the trash can itself is about 4-5 years old now and its GPUs have less than half the power of modern ones yet Apple still charges for them like they were new. After waiting for a viable desktop replacement for years the final straw was the new laptops with one type of port, no function keys, old GPUs and a terrible keyboard. Windows 10 is not as good as MacOS but the better and cheaper hardware more than makes up for the difference.
...but he got shit done. (I didn't intend for that to line up, but I'm happy it did :D). He was also into the details and into consistency. Tim is a nice guy which is exactly why things are slipping. The elimination of the headphone port under Jobs would have been universal or at the very least consistent in a column (all iPads, iPods, iPhones for example) and the AirPods would be billed as THE solution. That with wireless power... "Wires? Where we are going, we don't need wires!"... cue commercials of people just grabbing their iPads etc. from the charging pad, throwing them into a bag or pocket, putting in their AirPods, music blasting, and heading out the door. Smooth, seamless, etc. Instead we've got mixed support for wireless audio / headphone jacks and wireless charging. Jobs would have squeezed to make sure they were all released together. Tim is more laid back about it and is like, "Don't worry about it. We'll release each of the parts when they are ready, staggered even. No big deal." I suspect the same is happening with the hardware. Combine that with delays on the Intel side... and you've got quite a wait. One good thing about Apple, once they do release something it is pretty well done (although that seems to be slipping too). :P
The car industry release annual models of their cars.
It is often no major changes, but it is a revised version, a few changes, perhaps a new pricetag.
If nothing else it keeps the enthusiasts... enthusiastic.
And... memory and storage is rather cheap in 2018. Apple, however, charge a lot for quite little. Just a little RAM/storage bump would suffice for a new model.
Apple are just terrible 2018.
Apple makes trendy gadgets for the atechnical. It's a very profitable business to be sure. But there is not a lot of "geek cred" in Apple's products once their novelty has worn off.
Except in 2012 I built a $1,500 machine that had more RAM, SSD, CPU and GPU that crushed the trash can Mac Pro.
And, with $2,000 today in an expensive RAM and GPU market, I could still build a machine that stomps the Mac "iMac" Pro.
The latest Macbooks make good frisbees.
My Late 2013 MacBook Pro has kept up fine with my work needs (typically, developing distributed applications with IntelliJ IDEA on Lightbend's stack). After near five years, I'm considering an upgrade once a new model's released with more memory. Every year? Not for me, but I have seen an upgrade cycle that rapid with commodity machines.
With Macs is always the same. As soon as a significant upgraded specs machine is anounced, you buy it, with max CPU and RAM (since those are soldered). Skimp on the (removable) SSD if you must.
When Updated machines just hit, they are price-competitive with whatever has similar specs in the PC world (apple uses their scale to get good deals from component suppliers, and pass a very, very little part of the savings to us).
then hold on to it for a Very, very long time. Because, after a couple of semesters without upgrades, thos machines stop being price-competitive with their similar specd PC equivalents. If you are "forced" to buy a mac ahead of time, buy 2nd hand.
When the next significant update hits, lather, rinse, repeat.
Since this tends to align with my personal tastes, I have no Problem, but some people can not (or do not want) to operate in that pattern, I feel for them.
My MacBook aluminum Unibody Late 2008 lasted me (with SSD and RAM upgrade) until 2015. Now I am rocking and Early 2015 Air (maxed CPU, Maxed RAM, Downgraded SSD). And by the looks of it, this Air will last 7 years as well...
Yes, I am not a pro. Nowadays I am just a lousy cloud (mostly openstack) trainer and architect.
*** Suerte a todos y Feliz dia!
the sad state of their software as well.
Nobody asked for the fucking iMac Pro, just like nobody asked for the fucking trashcan Mac Pro.
The iMac Pro is a trojan horse.
apple also need at least 2 dual wide pci-e X16 slots with that + 3-4 m.2 slots + at least 1 sata 3.5 SSD / HDD bay.
AMD for apple to go with all ATI video cards.
What? People can recognize when a computer is running faster. You don't need to be a nerd to see the results.
I'm glad someone modded you down. You are clueless.
OMG only a fucking apple zealot of wizard proportions would claim an HDD is "completely sufficient"
I guess that has been apple motto all along. "Buy apple; we are completely sufficient"
The company and the higher ups obviously only care about their cash cow, the iPhone. I would bet however that the Mac hardware division is still profitable on it's own. It has to be when you look at those margins.
Apple has just gotten too big. (That's a really weird thing to say, I never thought that would happen.)
What they really need to do is take the macOS developers and the Mac hardware guys and you know, the people who actually like the Mac, and let them split off and form their own company or independent division. I would bet they would do great.
The worst part about Apple neglecting the Mac is their cheerful statements about hardware that has not been updated for 3, 4 or 5 years being "important" to them. If you are abandoning the Mac, tell people so they can adjust. Stringing them along with false statements of commitment while the hardware becomes ever more obsolete is a sure way to alienate even the most rabid fan.
Tim Cook quote from October 2017: "I'm glad you love Mac mini. We love it too. ... we do plan for Mac mini to be an important part of our product line going forward."
Last upgrade to Mac mini = 2012. (elimination of quad core in 2014 does not count as an upgrade)
This did not seem to happen under Steve Jobs. At the recent WWDC, both Tim Cook and at least one other Apple executive said, "We love the Mac." Really? When you sincerely love something, other people know it by your actions. When you let the Macintosh wither on the vine, then your words of "love" ring hollow.
Tim Cook has put all of Apple's eggs in the iPhone basket. With so much cash, Apple letting the Mac product line slowly die this way is very, very wrong.
OS X cannot really take advantage of multi-core hw. Faster processors are not coming out really - just more cores. You will notice that Apple purposely omits certain command lines like vmstat and sar.
Performance-gains were modest in the last couple of years. Only very recently has Intel been offering substantial performance-gains (via core-count increase) from one generation to the next.
I think that only with the current top-of-the-line i7 non-Pro iMac has the Geekbench-score basically doubled to what I have on my 2012 i7 Mini.
It remains to be seen how Apple is going to push forward, though. Intels roadmap goes up to 28 cores for their desktop-chips, AMD has a 32-core ThreadRipper2.
The 18-core iMacPro will actually look a bit wimpy next to one of those.
I guess they need to redesign their whole lineup for the upcoming core-count explosion.
Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin
Long ago Apple stopped making great workstations. I still have my 2013-era Macbook Pro but after the crap software and lack of decent hardware to even put another OS on my next workstation (and yeah, a laptop is my workstation these days) will not be a fruit one.
I find their phones and tablets pretty bad (I'll keep my Android devices, thank you very much) so that pretty much means I will not be an Apple customer anymore. When you think I used to have my PowerBook PPC laptop (it still works) as my main development/engineering machine almost 13 years ago it's a shame Apple is willing to give up on me as a customer. I suspect I'm not alone.
Not everyone wants to sit and post to social media all day -- some of us are power users. Audio editing is no exception. And Apple hasn't figured that out.
While being old certainly disqualifies Apple as "shiny" or even "fancy", that's about all it does. I have an Athlon II from 2010 that I use on a regular basis, and while I wouldn't ever brag about its benchmarks, it's definitely just fine (i.e. infinitely I/O-bound) for most kinds of modest jobs (e.g. web browsing, old games, etc.). Ubuntu 16.04 works fine on it and I'm sure 18.04 will too.
Similarly, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to use the latest Mac OS on a Mac from 2010. If you can't, that would probably be due to malicious intent in the software. And if that's the case, then you should probably just be moving away from Apple's OS. And obviously you'd want to do that regardless of whether they introduce new hardware or not, since this is a question of trustworthiness and good faith, rather than tech.
So if you're having a problems, that's not "sad state of Macintosh hardware" but rather "sad state of Apple software and goodwill." And let's face it: that's basically what all "computer nerds" have been saying since iOS came out, so I'd think you would have already faced the issue of Apple's evils and had already made a decision one way or the other. Somehow I think you already knew 10.14 was a way to have more problems, rather than being a way to solve something.
wow. Thank goodness literacy isn't required to post on /.!!
This. And have enough money to buy 3 4K monitors.
I have to admit, that's what I'm curious about IRT the iMac Pro.
Apple's apology tour last year talked about how they put themselves in a "thermal envelope" with the Mac Pro where, basically, they couldn't upgrade to the new Intel CPUs because their design just wouldn't be able to handle the heat. What was unsaid was that Apple didn't want to spend the money to redesign it because, while profitable, the Mac Pro doesn't sell that many units.
So what I'm curious about is what's going to happen when Intel releases the next generation of Xeons. Will we see an upgraded iMac Pro? I'd like to think that Apple learned their lesson and designed the iMac Pro so that it could handle hotter CPUs. But I have my doubts.
And, frankly, if I'm plunking down $5000 for a computer, it better have the latest and greatest therein.
Only on /. will someone find a way to justify Apple's lack of updating hardware by saying how bad Microsoft is.
LOL. No kidding. That's like the old time flame wars over one-button-mice.
I always get a laugh when Apple fanboiz bend over backwards to defend the indefensible. It's so darn cute! In 2018 no less!
Better hang onto those old machines then. Now a days, installing an SSD in a mac with a laminated screen requires you to cut the glue out and buy glue kits ($30) to replace it. And you better hope you dont scratch the screen while completely disassembling it!
Your post is just anecdotal flamebait. I have tens of dell laptops on site here and they are all fine. Much less headaches than the handful of macs which require OS rebuilds every year or so. Oh and i can centrally manage the dells, so i can reimage one and have it back in use for the user in 30-60min depending on what software they have installed. Contrast that with a mac which takes half a day to reimage and get going because i have to be present infront of the machine clickity clicking for every step of the process. The mac reimaging instructions are 22 steps. The windows machine imaging instructions are 1) boot to pxe 2) select deployment task 3) give computer name 4) wait 15 minutes, and then its ready for the user in most cases with the standard software load.
and dont even get me started on the lack of wake on fucking lan! its god damn 2018 and you still cant WOL a mac? come the fuck on!
Apple computers are, and always have been, computers for dandies. When they switched to intel, there was zero reason to ever go to a mac again. But people like paying lots of money because they confuse expensive with quality.
As a potential lottery winner, I totally support tax cuts for the wealthy
When I finally bought a laptop in 2006, I got myself a MacBook. Used it successfully for seven or eight years until I decided to get myself a used 2011 MacBook Pro, because by this time Apple had already made both the MacBook and the MacBook Pro into systems I didn't want. Since then, I've had to replace the logic board on the 2011 Pro once due to the graphics card failure and it recently started showing signs of the problem again. I got into the configuration and disabled the discrete graphics card to make sure I can keep using the laptop for a while longer. Which, of course, means that it's even less useful for games and other graphic-intensive work than it was before. So when I finally decided to buy myself a desktop as well, I didn't even consider Apple. When I finally replace that laptop, I'm not going to buy Apple. I don't use a iPhone or an iPad. I can't buy an iPod Classic anymore. Once I replace that laptop, I have no reason to deal with Apple again. It might not be much of a financial loss, but it's still the loss of one more customer and the creation of someone who will no longer recommend Apple to others.
95% of people will not know the difference, nor notice it in their general use.
Not notice the difference between an OS running on SSD and not? No way.
Do they *need* SSD? Probably not. But virtually eliminating IO bottlenecks allows many other functions to proceed faster... and not talking just about boot speed and initial load here.
Hire a Linux system administrator, systems engineer,
Apple will never get back those that gave up and bought a PC.
New ones with 128g ram, socket Apple I am in with that.
A Trojan horse to what? Bank accounts?
#DeleteFacebook
Yeah..... I'm only a hobbyist with the music recording or production thing, at best. (Many years ago, I spent a lot more time and focus on those things. These days, I just try to keep up with them as a side interest.)
I've also chosen to use Macs as my primary systems at home for the last 10+ years now. I owned several Mac Pros too. I got a LOT of mileage out of both my 2006 and 2008 model. Picked up a used 2010 model after that. but wound up reselling it for a small profit when the opportunity arose. Plugged along with the 2013 "trash can" Mac Pro until just recently. I decided to buy the new iMac Pro as its replacement, only because Micro Center stores kept selling the base model for $1,000 off. And at that price, it really seemed like a pretty good value.
I agree that Apple has been basically stringing along the computer-using community for several years now. If they didn't release this iMac Pro AND someone quickly put the discount on it, though? I would have been done with the Mac moving forward.
There are a lot of arguments to be made why it's worth sticking with the Mac. All of my existing software investment would be one, as well as the investment in the rest of the ecosystem that just works well together. (I have a number of HomeKit devices here, for example -- and my wife and I have gotten used to keeping all of our schedules on iCloud shared calendars.) But everything has a price limit -- and that $5,000 starting point for a new "Pro" series desktop exceeded mine.
The notebook computers are really not where I want them to be either. I have one of the new 13" Macbook Pros, courtesy of my work. There are times I really like things about it, such as the overall size, weight and look of it. But other times, the dongle collection gets on my nerves, and I'll never agree with Apple's decision on the new keyboard design on them. The battery life is great and the screen is crisp. But I *really* want a better GPU in one of these. This new idea to sell external GPUs feels like a band-aid LONG after the bleeding has gone on.
The state of music software today is such that I don't think there's any need to stick with OS X though. The single biggest benefit to Mac is probably the lack of hassle configuring things to reduce latency. But Windows PC speeds have gotten so fast now, I'm doubtful that optimization is as necessary as it used to be.
And as I mentioned in another post, the $5000 base model was on sale for $3,999 almost as soon as it came out, at all Micro Center stores. You had to go in to buy it in store to get the price. But my experience was that their stores were well stocked with them, and they did restock several times when they sold out at one.
They ran that sale again several times, as well as another sale where it was $799 discounted. I saw other stores like Best Buy do similar sales in response. So many of the iMac Pros people purchased were for far less than that $5,000 price tag.
I see you, Tim Cook.
CPU technology is approaching a plateau; hopefully, in the long run, it's not an endless plateau, but over the next several years we will hit the known limits of process technology without a major revolution in how silicon chips are made. We've already seen a slowing CPU speed growth curve, and GPUs/etc. will catch up soon, so measuring "new" by the traditional metrics of CPU speed and cores is going to become pointless. Hopefully we'll still see a bit of growth in number of cores, co-processors, etc., but the same limits will apply there; there's only so much heat/power/cost you can deal with in laptops and home systems.
I know statements like this have been made before (I remember the "1 micron" barrier :-) ) but this time I think it's much more real.
basically, they couldn't upgrade to the new Intel CPUs because their design just wouldn't be able to handle the heat.
I believe it was the GPUs, not CPU - CPU TDP has stayed pretty steady (and as a result, performance has been pretty stagnant). T the GPU complexity has been continuing to go up, bringing lots more heat.
Don't blame Apple. Maybe putting all of your software development eggs in the Apple basket isn't the best business plan. Maybe start working on tools for other operating systems. Apple doesn't owe you anything, if their platform is no longer conducive to your business then you need a new plan.
The new iMac Pro is, apparently, almost completely unsupported by Apple (very few to no technicians trained to service them).
Worse, they're badly engineered as well. The stand/VESA mount issue is beyond the point of farce.
They're willing to fuck over major reviewers with huge reach on repairs for these expensive devices.
So. How's Apple going to treat YOU with YOUR significantly less expensive device?
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
I have that one, the fastest Mac Mini I could get, and also a 2010 Mac Pro, which is the most powerful "pro" machine. I have upgraded it close to the max, 6-core 3.4GHz Xeon, 32GB RAM, USB3, e-Sata, 2x500GB SSD & 2x2TB HD (didn't touch graphics as I don't game) and I've been waiting for them to give me something to replace it with all these years, but they really don't care about power users anymore...
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
Absolutely. As a filmmaker who also does animation in After Effects & Cinema 4D I am [futilely] hoping that Apple updates their MBP lineup to reintegrate all the ports they eliminated. Thunderbolt, USB, remove the Touch Bar, and especially bring back the magnetic charger since I can be clumsy af. Right now I'm still using a Mid 2014 MBP and will continue to do so until I'm either forced to switch back to a PC or Apple gives me back some basic options. Animating isn't pretty right now, but luckily I don't have gobs of it to do since I mostly do basic film productions, but I would kill to get a better graphics card, it's getting painful.
Now that they've moved to Power8/9 chips all Apple would need to do is recompile for PPC/Power64 again, convince somebody to do a refresh of their GPU with a PCIe4.0 controller, and start embarassing the competition with their 8-36+ core workstation systems.
And since they've already produced the hardware to run 'libre' operating systems on, at a price premium that apple could profit considerably off of with their economy of scale, it's basically an open and shut choice they'd be stupid to give up.
After all, at least there are no confederate flags on the app store now. Priorities people!
My mid or late (can't recall, I'm at work) MacBook Pro from 2013 "suffers no detectable slowdown or inability to handle complex websites, etc" as well. Mind you, a 500GB SSD, Intel i7, and 16GB of RAM should still be decent, even today.
That being said, though, the chances of my next computer being an Apple are 50:50. I'm probably going to come back to Linux and just have a decent mid tower PC.
Apple is the iPhone company now, like Xerox used to be the toner heads and HP became the ink company.
If you look at Cook's products, they're all inspired by the iPhone. Short (2-3 year) life cycle, no user updatable parts, glued together. Cook knows how to turn a profit. He doesn't know how to make computers.
You forgot the 90% after that first sentence... of what you MEAN...
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No need to repeat the same exact comments others have made as they are spot on about how Apple now only appears to cares about its mobile division. (even if their corporate double-speak says otherwise)
But the kicker here is that they will not allow any third-party company to make absolutely balls-to-the-wall cutting-edge machines to run OS-X on probably because they couldn't stand the thought of someone else staining this hallowed image as a technology leader that memes people into paying higher prices for their hardware, therefore the only real alternative for pro users who have to come rely on OS-X's stability and want to keep it as their desktop of choice is to install it on commodity PC hardware as a Hackintosh.
That being said, and even though we must all eventually upgrade, the late 2011 17" 2.5 GHz core i7 laptops are currently still selling for very high amounts on eBay, and so are their spare parts as all of those who are still using them are not upgrading to anything else. These machines can be fitted with 16 Gigs of RAM (Apple says 8 but that's known to be a lie) as well as upgraded to two internal disks by removing the DVD drive (one high-capacity SSD and one traditional 2.5" hard drive), so they are portable workhorses and can still be used for most everyday tasks as long as the this doesn't involve 4K video or other high-performance gaming.
What an ironic turn of events for a company that only managed to stay afloat because it kept providing media professionals with the tools they required to create content with, and that now appears satisfied with merely making stuff for people to consume content with.
Most pro users will eventually have no choice but to migrate to Windows 10 or figure out a way to use their existing OS-X apps with Hackintosh.
I have to confess that I don't know much about Mac keyboards, but I gather that the Prime Directive of Thinness means that keyboard feel and key-travel are way down the list.
I really like my Corsair mechanical gaming keyboard (though I am not a gamer). The buckling-spring feel of those Cherry key-switches is wonderful.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" -- HST
right.. it's called vm_stat, and sar was removed from MacOS since sierra but there's still the official Apple repository for sar:
https://opensource.apple.com/s...
Download sar.c, sar.h and also sadc.h and sadc.c from a sibling folder.
Compile and test:
clang sar.c -o sar -I . ./sar -A -f test > testout
clang sadc.c -o sadc -I . -framework Foundation -framework IOKit
terminated by signal SIGFPE (Floating point exception)
And output, testout looks like this:
17:32:23 %usr %nice %sys %idle
17:32:23 pgout/s
17:32:23 pgin/s pflt/s vflt/s
17:32:23 device r+w/s blks/s
17:32:23 IFACE Ipkts/s Ibytes/s Opkts/s Obytes/s
17:32:23 IFACE Ierrs/s Oerrs/s Coll/s Drop/s
New Disk: [disk0] IODeviceTree:/PCI0@0/SATA@1F,2/PRT0@0/PMP@0/@0:0
17:32:23 %usr %nice %sys %idle
17:32:23 0 0 0 0
17:32:23 pgout/s
17:32:23 nan
17:32:23 pgin/s pflt/s vflt/s
17:32:23 nan nan inf
So it compiles, data can be collected and kindof processed, but not fully.
I've found the Apple repository of SAR thanks to this superuser answer: https://superuser.com/a/581128
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But the Genius Bar might have access to parts by then! Yay! Repairs!
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
...Sucks.
Running a computer with 4GB RAM and 1TB HDD (it's DDR4, so I can't just take a 2GB stick from a dead laptop yet to upgrade the RAM)
There can be some horrible hard drive grinding but tripling or quadrupling the RAM would fix most of it.
I'd do ok on HDD and 16 to 32GB RAM.
When you're using over 150% of your physical RAM it's where the attitude that we don't care a calculator takes 50MB or a video player takes 100MB hurts : the OS has to swap out RAM, swap some libraries or stuff in. So you get something silly like the Win 10 start menu taking 5-10 seconds to show up, ditto the Win 10 calculator. Another example of silliness is waiting as much for a file open dialog (which also grind at reading directory or 'recently used' contents)
This all can get worse if there's background HDD activity or severe swapping.
An SSD would hide some of this. But I estimate the HDD is enough even for Win 10 bloat if you can afford the RAM (currently way overpriced. There's news of a new RAM vendor in China that makes DDR4 2133 but I don't know if they're shipping their stuff yet and I forgot their Chinese name too)
Some tasks legitimately need better I/O and indeed I can't deny an SSD is tons better and useful (one example is shuffling mail around in Thunderbird. A friend asked me why the hell it's so slow and I explained the drive heads physically move back and forth. As the operation was so infrequent - sorting many years of old mail - it was decided that waiting 5 minutes on the computer's work was acceptable)
Better performing hardware for a much cheaper price. Stability to boot.
I'm a reformed Mac fanatic. In the era of MacOS 7, before NT 4 and subsequently Windows became partly usable, the Mac was the best thing going.
Having said all that, today I'm pretty much an Apple hater. With regard to the topic under discussion, they don't offer any compelling computer hardware whatsoever. And even if they did, I wouldn't be interested - at all, due to their behavior with regard to developers and development for iOS. They've made it clear that they don't want the likes of me developing for their platform (using whatever tools and hardware I see fit, and making products the availability of which they do not control).
Combine that with the fact that they have long since abandoned desktop computing users, and I just don't see a reason to care, or consider Apple products of any kind for any purpose.
Over the years since just before Steve Jobs returned, they've made giant leaps in corporate survival - but I'd rather have seen them perish than watch them become what they are today.
I just don't know what to make of this.
At work I have a brand new Intel Core i9 setup that's so maxed out our finance team nearly fainted. I've never had a 5 digit priced PC to work on. I still wait minutes on Windows to simply sort my Downloads folder by Date, or for Visual Studio to finish thrashing, or for my machine to start up. It has a different SSD for every separate project that I need to run for testing. It still is overwhelmingly slow. I wait almost the same time I did on my old core-i7 laptop. I have to restart it several times a day. Sometimes I BSOD with IRQ_LESS_THAN_OR_EQUAL errors.
At home I have a iMac from 2016 that feels and runs faster. It opens Android Studio faster. Web pages feel faster. Heck starting up and even typing feels faster. I haven't restarted it since I last moved to a different apartment. I can't ever justify upgrading the OS as everything works fine for me. It has a spinning hard drive (fusion drive). I don't get it.
I think the current CEO of Apple is somehow Steve Balmer's evil twin, and he needs to step down. I think the current hardware is junk. I think they have stopped innovating and have started just becoming a crapola company. I've even recently switched to Android after being on an iPhone since day one. They're totally a mess. I am outright scared each time I install an update from them.
Nobody asked for the iPod, the iPhone, or the iPad.
That said, the trashcan styled mac pro is awful and the removal of buttons for an OLED bar on the Macbook Pro is showing how out of touch Apple is with it's users.
Typed from a 2012 MBP.
You describe my thoughts and feelings so much it is amazing. I have been a ecstatic mac user since 1993. I used to by a macbook pro every 2 years. Now, I am still going on my aging 2013 computer. I would love to replace it, but lets face it, the new laptops are pieces of shit.
Despite what people repeat on these forums, the mac laptops used to be finest of breed. Jobs even managed to get intel to release processors for the Mac first, so it was faster. Sure, there were cheaper things out there, but as many people had shown at the time, once you specced a PC to the same standards, the mac actually held its own or one. It was priced like a Caddy and was one.
Now, I am in the enviable and horrid position of having my wife wanting to make me happy and suggesting I get a new computer. I have to sadly say no. I think it would be a downgrade. I do not need as the OP said, and emoji machine.
Apple's margin is extremely high on phones. It's one of the reasons it is a darling of Wall Street.
What's the margin on new PC hardware? Minimal, even for Apple.
If Apple were to come out with new computers every year, they would have a higher amount NRE on their books, and the components to make their computers would be more expensive to boot. Older components on a large scale are cheaper by a long shot. Apple can't compete with smaller companies since it needs parts on such a scale when it releases new computers that manufacturers can't keep up. By not investing in new computer development, Apple is playing the dangerous game of having a locked in market, overcharging those who use their gear, and expecting it to last -- or not caring about its users at all.
Apple may be on the egregious side. But they're far from the only offender here. *Everyone* seems to be letting their real computers stagnate in favor of gadgets. And I suspect that it's not even the fault of any of them; but a result of Intel's recent trend of sitting around with their thumbs up their bums.
About three years ago, I bought a top-end iMac with a core i7 CPU that tops out "turbo boost"ing at 4Ghz. Leaving aside "pro" model and Xeons, the top-end iMac now is an i7 @ 4.2Ghz... which you would think would say something bad about Apple. But a quick check for the top-end consumer non-Xeon HP and Dell machines that I could find, turns up machines specced at core i7s topping out at most 4.6hz. That's better; but not by much. Granted, an i7 @ 4Ghz today is not quite the same thing as an i7 @ 4Ghz from three years ago. But the improvements are fairly incremental and underwhelming yawners... especially considering we've had two full 18-month Moore cycles in the meantime. The Intel of old would have improved its product lineup considerably more than they have bothered to do these last 36 months.
Perhaps this is the root of the persistent rumors of Apple switching to its own ARM-based chip designs? After all, that's pretty much how Apple wound up on Intel in the first place... IBM was letting the PPC G5 stagnate and Motorola pretty much checked out entirely.
Imagine all the people...
Lot of Apple apologist here. They can't admit the company's failings. This is what the ghost town that Slashdot has become is left with.
Dell / hp / others all do specs bumps / price drops over time. But apple still has 5400RPM hdds in the imacs.
Apple looks for ways to make system thinner and thinner and takes ports away.
For the iMacs, Apple is pushing Fusion Drive if you don't want a pure SSD. Fusion Drive is merging an SSD and the slow 5400 RPM HDD into a large device with the goal that the frequently used files and areas are available at SSD speeds, while things you access seldom is available at the HDD price (the Apple version of that, anyway).
they're not sinking the way older models' prices used to. people are actually finding the older models more desirable than the newer ones (esp. the portables).
the touch bar seems like a dead end and they're stuck - if they withdraw it, the people who've committed to it would be mad. if they keep making it, well, it's a lot of cost for no real benefit.
they need to review their management processes as to how that decision was made, because it's a self-inflicted wound that's not healing.
I'm not sure what you think is "behind the technology curve" with the iMac Pro or the 2017 MBP. Even the 2017 iMacs are up-to-date, too.
Yes, we ALL know the Mac mini and Mac Pro are SADLY in need of a refresh; but don't damn the entire BRAND, just because they have let a couple of products languish.
A "couple of products languish"? They only have a couple of products! They've got basically three desktop machines (with various configurations) and the iMac is the only one that is even remotely up to date as I write this. The Mac Mini and Mac Pro are not even close to the best hardware available in their respective market segments right now. They are better on the laptop side of things but their decisions there haven't been universally great either. (16GB max ram on MBP? One USB-C port for the whole machine?) I understand that they sell more laptops than desktops but that's not an acceptable excuse. With the billions Apple has in the bank I'm fairly confident that it isn't a resources problem so that means it is a decision rather than a limitation.
Most damning to my mind is that Apple still can't seem to figure out how to really tightly integrate the software between their Macintosh computers and their phones and tablets and other devices. The Mac has kind of become the bastard step child. Ironic since the real value proposition for any Apple machine is in the software. Put Windows on a Mac without OS X and nobody is going to pay a premium for that. People buy Apple products for the software and Apple really is a software company. If they are going to bundle their software with hardware as they have always done, then the hardware for their Macintosh line needs to be better than it currently is and needs to remain so. Otherwise one can find more value in a Windows or Linux box for a lot of use cases.
Apple has no been a company that believes they need to release a new Mac "just because" for several years now, and it isn't as if Intel has made great SIGNIFICANT progress on their "roadmap" in recent years.
Apple charges premium prices for their products and historically they've been good enough to justify that pricing. That's fine but with premium pricing we should fully expect to get a premium product including hardware that is somewhere close to the best available at the time of purchase. With as few products as Apple has in their lineup (by design) they should have NO problem keeping their products at or near the best available in their respective categories. And currently it is undeniable that they routinely fail in this test in their Macintosh division particularly with their desktop machines.
As a society, we have become obsessed with never-ending growth and progress.
You say that as if I'm supposed to axiomatically agree that it is a bad thing. Sorry but growth and progress ARE good things.
It's not good enough that a company provides jobs and turns a profit. It has to show "growth".
That's correct. Do you understand why? If I'm going to invest in a company I'm going to expect a return on my investment. Companies that don't grow don't provide a return. Companies that don't grow are replaced by those that do and the jobs go to the ones that are growing. Companies that don't improve their products lose to those that do and their profits follow.
It's not good enough that a given computer can perform all sorts of useful functions. It has to be reinvented as more powerful every 374 days.
Quite so. I want to be able to do more tomorrow than I can do today. Otherwise we may as well still be living as hunter gatherers. Maybe you aren't old enough to remember when computers weren't a part of our daily lives but I am and it's better now that they are. And I want the ones tomorrow to be better than the ones today. The paper phone directory was "good enough" but the internet is better. Rotary phones worked fine but mobile phones are better. Societies that don't steadily improve their technology stagnate and fail. You really don't want that.
I do agree that a Mac Mini should cost less now than it did over three years ago. But what's wrong with good enough?
What's wrong with it is that I'm not going to buy it when there is something else available that is better. Apple charges premium prices for their devices so it's not unreasonable to expect their products to *gasp* actually be premium products. Selling a computer that basically hasn't been updated for 3 years for the same price you did 3 years ago is just either arrogance or stupidity. Apple has by design a small product line and they have plenty of resources (esp cash) so there really is no excuse for them selling any products that aren't best in class or nearly so. If some other company comes out with a better product then I'm going to buy that instead.
Even for that configuration, it's an insane price.
My washer uses tech from 20 years ago. It cost $250 delivered. The latest washers cost nearly $1,000.
You can buy a washer for considerably less than $1000. $1000 gets you a top of the line unit. Most of them cost $400-700 and adjusted for inflation that is roughly the same as your price from 20 years ago. Price competition on appliances like these is incredibly intense so no, prices have not gone up at all on an inflation adjusted basis and the products actually have gotten modestly better too.
My clothes still come out clean. And the Dryer dries them.
And they almost certainly consume more energy and more water doing it. Just because it works well enough for your purposes doesn't mean you'd buy the same unit today if you were in the market.
When my 20 year old toaster died, I want another one just like it, not some shiny contraption with electronic doodads that add no value to what I want to do, which is toast bread.
Poor analogy. Toaster technology is fully mature and hasn't advanced meaningfully in the last 20 years. PC technology has advanced more in the last 6 months than toasters have in the last 50 years. Sure PCs are a more mature technology than they were 10 or 20 years ago but compared to most other products they still are improving at a breathtaking pace. A PC you buy today will for the same price point be notably better for most use cases than one you bought just 3 years ago.
Nobody is saying you have to upgrade for no purpose but if you are in the market for a computer you simply aren't going to buy a 3 year old model unless you have a very specific reason to do so. The reason is because the state of the art has moved significantly in that relatively short time span.
They probably make 10x profit on the phones compared to Mac. So they have decided to focus on the moneymaker.
There are 1000x more status-concerned Rich Women than professional Mac users.
Maybe they will soon port their dev tools to Windows and shut down the Mac. Who knows.
My point is that is really hasn't. My laptop already does all the things I need to do with it.
That does not matter for purposes of buying a new one. All that means is that you aren't going to upgrade until you either get a new use case requirement or it breaks. And when you do replace it you almost certainly are not going to buy the same model even if it worked just fine. You are going to buy something that most likely is technologically superior to whatever you are currently and likely for the same or less money. Because why wouldn't you? It's like buying a new car that gets notably better gas mileage and goes faster for the same money as what you bought 3 years prior. Nobody is going to buy old inferior technology unless they absolutely have to. And companies that don't keep up with the state of the art are going to lose sales to companies that do keep up. Right now Apple is not keeping up in their Macintosh division.
I know that there are cars on the market that can hit top speeds of 200 miles per hour. They may be "technologically superior", but I don't buy one because it is capability I don't need and will never use.
If Apple sold a reasonably-specced computer (either a mini or a tower) that let me upgrade the memory, storage, and video card whenever I desired, I'd click 'Buy' on that immediately. Since they don't, they're forcing me to question whether I really need to continue using macOS.
Right now my desktop is a Hackintosh that I built in 2011. Over the years I added more memory, upgraded the HD to an SSD, and upgraded the video card a few times. I boot into Windows for games, and into macOS for most everything else.
But frequent rebooting back and forth is a pain. Recently I've been getting into VR (HTC Vive) and have been thinking about building a new computer with current parts ... and I've been putting thought into how much I really need macOS, given that so many of the apps and services I use are online and cross--platform. Do I want to continue dual-booting? Or do I want to run macOS in VirtualBox (which apparently has problems with sound, and FaceTime and iMessage don't work)? Or do I want a Mac mini, or to build a small Hackintosh with an ITX-based PC, so I can remote into it from Windows with VNC? Or do I want to wean myself off macOS entirely?
My realization is that I use macOS for lifestyle stuff. Using the Safari web browser is nice because it has access to the same bookmarks I have on my iPhone and iPad. Photos is a good library app for the photos I take with my iPhone. macOS is generally easier to get around in ... though it absolutely sucks for games. And so I will continue to need to run both operating systems for now.
And don't even get me started on Mac laptops.
Seriously, you think Apple is blameless and Intel is the one with the problem??
1). Your insistence on LPDDR is an error. It puts you into a box where there is one and only one solution, and your solution is not working. Maybe you are the one with the problem here?
2). Lots of competitors manage to find solutions. Apple can find solutions too, they've simply chosen not to.
3). Do you think that Intel is the only supplier of chipsets? Why do you think that?
It is hard not to notice the number of posts in favor of Microsoft lately after Slashdot has traditionally reflected the views of hackers who typically have an anti-Microsoft world view.
And the bad guys say, "I myself understand this anti-Microsoft slant having experienced the numerous annoying glitches and knowing how easy it has been over the years to hook system calls and otherwise break this weakling operating system. In one way, Windows has been a great platform for me but not for its strengths but for its weaknesses. And every dummy in the world has this thing running behind their broadband access point and so it helps me mine personally identifying information in massive volumes."
And the guys who have had experience with other platforms (including Macintosh) and have to use Windows say, "Sh*t this thing keeps breaking in such stupid ways? How fast can I get this operating system off of my computer?"
So the bias of late indicates to me a change in attitude at Slashdot and maybe a change in editorial leadership and maybe a little money changing hands and a loss of honest reporting on the state of the art.
Reading the posts in response to this article reminds me of the same old FUD that is meant to target those who have never actually used the competing platform. This tactic is meant to encourage non-users of the technology that they have made a sound choice in *not* using the target technology. A common tactic used by Microsoft.
My bet is that 100% of the anti-Mac hardware posts here are 100% paid for by Microsoft. And if not then they are definitely high on the Cool Aid.
So, Slashdot moderators, moderate my comment down to zero so it will be hidden in the collapsed comments that no one will ever see.
De Latibulis Surrexissent!
Has anyone else noticed its support and quality are going downhill too? Bugs, issues, etc. Also, its support is lame like its $29 battery issues in old iPhones a couple months ago:
iPhone 6+'s $29 battery recalls. Apple sent to the wrong e-mail address even though it was never used when preordering the $29 batteries over the phones. Even their e-mails confirmed the correct addresses. How in the world did Apple messed up with two incorrect (Apple ID) e-mail addresses when the preorder confirmations were correct? They were never changed! No e-mails and calls about the delivered batteries for over four months!
Following up for status updates had incompetent people like setting up two appointments for two iPhones 6+es. There were two openings back to back (3:40 and 3:50 PM PDT). The gal gave us the first one, but the second one was gone. We wanted to save a trip since its store was far. What the heck? Supervisor wasn't any better.
Why only seven days in advance and not more?
Why didn't Apple not tell authorized repair centers like Best Buy's Geek Squad that there were no batteries during appointment setups back in January 2018?
Argh! We need really need Steve Jobs back. Oh yeah... :(
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
Clearly the Mac Mini is the 'leetest of the bunch
When you have to buy a new car (for whatever reason) would you buy a car that has lower fuel consumption, and is faster and costs the same as your old car?
Always knew the Mini was leet!
The Macintosh is dying. The money is all in iPhones. Apple is not interested in the small Macintosh market anymore.
Last year I upgraded to the latest model MBPs. I got the base one without the stupid touch bar because I want my damn physical Esc key and while it has "only" 8GB of RAM, it's perfectly adequate for everything I do with it and it didn't really feel faster at all compared to the 2014 model I had before. About the only noticeable difference was in building the large Swift codebase I work on.
It was only a few weeks ago that I finally upgraded the OS from 10.12 to 10.13 and it feels noticeably faster. Safari seems more performant and everything else seems to run faster which is probably down to now being on the new filesystem. I also upgraded the OS on my iPhone 6 from 10 to 11 and that too feels noticeably faster as well.
The latest Xcode 9.4 is also significantly faster as well and the Xcode 10 beta is even faster still.
CPU and memory speeds haven't been increasing much in the last 5-10 years. It's not the 1990s or 2000s anymore where it seemed like every 12 months computers were 2x as powerful. In the last few years it feels like most of the performance improvements on the Mac have come from software optimisations that have been driven by the imperative of maximising battery life, which is a great thing - more battery life and faster software.
My parents still use a 10 year-old iMac because it does everything they want and is still ticking along. I maxed out the RAM in it years ago, but all they use it for is Skype calls, Facebook games and keeping track of their finances with ancient accounting software they started using for their business back in 2001 in a Windows VM. I've offered to buy them a new one, but they're happy with it and mostly use a MacBook and iPhone these days instead.
I read a day or two ago about new PC laptops shipping with 128GB of RAM. I'm not knocking it, but what would you use that for? This 8GB machine I'm using right now rarely cracks 1GB of VM pagefile and I always have Xcode, Skype, Pages, Numbers, Slack, Safari, iTunes and Instruments open, with many browser tabs, documents and workspaces open at the same time and everything runs fine. The flash storage is very fast so paging doesn't cause as much of a slowdown as it did with spinning disks.
If I was into high-end graphics or GPU-accelleration stuff then I can see an argument, but if you're really after high performance you can now use external GPUs or rent insanely powerful/expensive ones in the cloud.
Apple has given up on being "cool" in favor of being "rich".
Had been very happy with them, since getting an MBP back in '09 and cutting the WinDoze cord.
Unfortunately, it's getting to be a little long in the tooth. Have already lost one USB port, getting spontaneous re-boots and logouts. It's annoying, and as old as the machine is, no sense throwing money at replacement parts from eBay.
Still need a good rig, though, and am not interested in something glued and soldered that I can never work on.
So, recently, spent around the same amount as that '09 MBP and built a Hackintosh.
It's not a laptop anymore, but gosh, does it run!
Intel Z370 (using onboard graphics), i7 8700, 32GB DDR4, M.2 drive, 28" 4K screen, Matias keyboard (over the last nine years, my fingers have gotten really used to the touch on that MBP)
Everything works, running High Sierra. Did have to spring for a Broadcom WiFi/Bluetooth card, but fortunately Intel lets you remove the one they included.
Still want a portable box for when I'm away from the desk, so am going to reload the MBP and see if that breathes some life into it. If not, will just find a middle-of-the-read laptop and build another Hackintosh. (It's just for on the road, so no need for super-cow powers.)
This is really too bad for Apple, because if they had just continued to make excellent hardware that folks could actually work on, I would have spent the money on them instead.
Not only are the new Mac Proâ(TM)s just âokayâ(TM) itâ(TM)s something of a crappy outcome when the 17â inch line is no longer supported. Well, itâ(TM)s been a good run but I think itâ(TM)s goodbye for me and Apple.
Not having any updates for over a year also means that Apple has missed out on the most interesting year of CPU upgrades in a long time. On the Intel side, we got the first mainstream six core CPUs for desktops, the first six core H-series (power laptop) processors, and the first quad core U-series (mainstream laptop) processors. These all meant performance improvements of 30 to 40%, a much bigger jump than we have seen for a while. (Nothing new in the Y series yet; that's probably waiting for the 10nm Cannon Lake.) And AMD debuted Ryzen and Mobile Ryzen, offering a viable alternative to many of Intel's processors.
So over on the Windows side, we have a bunch of new systems that are quite a bit faster at multi-threaded workloads than the ones you could get a year ago. But Mac users are totally missing out. (The iMac Pro uses a Xeon workstation and server processor, and that line did not get the same dramatic performance jump that the consumer processors did; higher core counts have been available there for a while.)
Mac computer sales are ~10 percent of Apple total sales over the last 3 years.
iPad is roughly the same.
66% sales are iPhone.
Apple will likely have 5 year product cycles for iPad and Mac computers given the sales have been roughly flat for those areas in the last few years.
More intriguing is Microsoft's apparent lack of product releases in anything other than Azure cloud.
This effectively turns non-cloud software into zombie mode hanging onto end of life for dev tools, desktop office suite, desktop software.
SQL Server database and Exchange server excluded.
Windows 10 is only getting a yearly hodge-podge assortment of software with no Windows 11 on the horizon.
Psssssst, having rolled out and lived with cloud based Office, desktop Office is better.
I think Apple has little to no interest in upgrading their laptops as long as the vast majority of PC laptops keep having the same crappy displays with narrow viewing angles and low contrast. It doesn't matter if they're 2x as powerful for half the price if I can't trust them for even adjusting the brightness and contrast of photos on the road.
The only laptops with decent displays cost not much less than a MacBook. And without Mac OS, which is still more appealing than Windows.
OP speaks true. But as a front-end developer, what other machine am I supposed to buy that can do all of the following?
Windows 10 has come a long way with its Linux integration re: command line, but I've yet to find anything that comes close to approximating Font Book or LinoType Explorer X.
A 5400RPM drive is sufficient, but but upgrading that drive to a SSD or even a 7200RPM drive will make a world of difference, and easily is the best bang for your buck upgrade for a computer that has a 5400RPM drive. Of course, you'll find plenty of Windows computers sporting a 5400RPM drive too, but they are also trying to hit a $249 price point. Only Apple would sell you a 5400RPM drive in a $1000 computer.