Bad example about doctors going back to medical school. Let's pretend that ever 7 years doctors have to pay upwards of $30,000 to get a whole new career. In the middle there fill in a year or two of being laid off. That's comparable to what's happening to some of us in IT right now.
So you're missing the point. I'm not saying one can't learn outside of school. In fact, as I've said in many other posts, I've spent upwards of 20 hours a week since I graduated to teach myself new technology. Going from an English degree holder with HTML and JavaScript knowlege to a Java developer with expertise in everything from SQL to Server administration.
The problem, though, is that if jobs don't exist, period, what the apologists are telling us is to retrain for totally different fields. Like Nanotechnology or biochemistry, etc. Am I going to learn that at home? Am I going to buy "Learn Biochemistry in 24 Hours"? Is there a "Professional Nanotechnology" book by Wrox?
So please explain to me how I'm not being professional. I'm learning everything there is to learn outside of spending tons of money to retrain myself completely for a completely different high-level career. Get it yet???
I have $30,000 in student loans. My wife has $28,000. We had to do that to get out of poverty. You try paying that back. You try walking in my shoes and you can say something like that. Otherwise you don't know what you're talking about.
And I didn't have 10 years of booming economy. I had like 4. I graduated in 1997 and worked my way up from English degree holder and HTML "developer" to Java developer in 7 years. So I missed out on most of the big pay years during the "boom".
I was that naive. I had no choice. It was milk cows and live in poverty or borrow my way into education and possibly a better life. I know there are no guarantees, but I was pretty sure I'd be able to get a better job than milking cows. Right now, if all the white collar jobs flee overseas, I'm not so sure. That's my point.
I have the desire, btw. I worked 40 hours a week and put myself through college. Then I worked 40-70 hours a week for the last 7 years while also putting time in to teach myself new skills. I deserve success. I've earned it. The fact that the jobs just aren't here is the problem.
First off, when your options are milk cows or go to school and when everyone is telling you education is the key, you don't really have much of a choice. It's education or poverty. Some of us don't have a middle ground choice really. Secondly, I don't think I deserve a $100k job or even a $60k job. But I certainly deserve better than a $11k job. I think I've earned that through years of hard work and improving my skills. The reason I might not get it is because I live in a nation with a high cost of living.
Excuse me? I worked 40 hours a week while I went through school to make up the difference between what I could get in loans and what my education cost. Then I spent 7 years working 40-70 hours a week plus 20 hours a week off hours learning new skills. I've worked hard enough. That's not the problem. The problem is that I can't afford to take $11,000 a year because it costs more to live in this country. Why is that so exceedingly difficult to understand?
You don't seem to get it. And yes, that was an insult. Saying something like that to someone, when you know nothing of their background is unsulting and immature. I'm a professional. I put myself through college. Worked 40 hours a week while working full time so I didn't end up poor like my parents. And, what do you know, I didn't end up poor. I made a career for myself. Or, at least I thought I did. I then proceeded to work some 20 hours a week off-hours learning new skills to stay fresh and stay ahead of the curve and, what do you know, still not poor. Things are going well.
Suddenly the job goes away. The market sucks. My choices are finite. Especially since I still owe $30,000 in student loans. My options are, go get more school or..... what? Take a lower paying job and hope I can still take care of my family?
I agree with keeping up your skills, but that's not what you're talking about. I was more than willing to do that. What we're talking about here is completely remaking your career at the cost of an entire education every time something like this happens. That's not doable. I wouldn't expect a doctor to go back to medical school every 7 years. Nor should you expect me to completely retool my skillset from scratch to bend to the market. It's just not economically viable. In the end I'll lose more money than I'll make. Thus the service job starts looking attractive.
It's about economics. If I have to spend money to make less money than I spent, then I'm not ahead of the game. Get it?
It's not meaningless, it's true. Capitalism taken to the 9th degree will eventually be unsustainable. Who will buy the products when everyone is either mega-rich or poor?
For the record, the only way in which I'm jealous is that I'm jealous I don't live in a country where the cost of living is this low. I'm not jealous of the rich. Never wanted to be rich. Just wanted to take care of my wife and I and not be poor. Apparantly that makes me greedy.
But the point is, what if you've already made that choice? What if you have kids already (which I don't)? Or $30,000 in student loans (which I do)? There really isn't any turning back. You can't undo children or loans? So your 11g figure is bogus.
I worked on C64's in my youth. I'm 28. Are you saying I should be making $150,000 by now? Should EVERYONE with skill be making $150,000 by that point in their lives or their losers/slackers? I fail to see your logic.
There are too many of us fighting for too few jobs, many of which are now going overseas. I can do the job. It just doesn't exist any longer. Or there are less of them. Get it?
Adapt how? Adapt to jobs that don't exist (i.e. the aforementioned manufacturing jobs)? Adapt by getting MORE education at MORE cost while your family starves and/or you divorce your wife because you never see her? Explain to me how to adapt to a market where jobs don't exist in my field and I still owe for the previous time I "adapted" and I'll gladly take that road. But I've looked and I don't see anything but a path to worsening economic conditions for the majority of us. Just because things are good for you doesn't deny the reality of the situation for the rest of us.
And for the record the rich are getting much richer and most don't spend money on the things you've mentioned. The income disparity in this country has gone from something like 50 times to 1000 times. Not all of that money is being reinvested in jobs that benefit the middle class.
This is different. The end game here is that the rich are widening the gap between themselves and the middle class to a gross excess that history has never seen. There's absolutely no comparison. This is capitalism eating itself.
This is the boat I'm in. My education is a burden, not a help. Wasn't that way when I started, but it is where it ended. And I never got to make $80,000 in between, in spite of the fact that I have a wide variety of skills.
Yes. I can see our quality of life increasing exponentially under this kind of structure. I can take out another $30,000+ in loans or else I can not see my family/work full time/go to school full time as I retool in the hopes that when I'm done I don't need to go back to step *A* and repeat all over again in order to get a job.
Of course, if (in my haste to respond to the crap being posted on this board) I commit typos like "their" instead of "there" too often, I might end up a Wal-Mart greeter anyway.:-)
That's essentially the problem for many of us. We did what we were supposed to, or what we thought we had to to compete. We saw the manufacturing jobs fleeing, so we took out student loans, etc. to get better jobs. We got those better jobs, which came with higher taxes. So we bought houses. Now, all of a sudden, we have no jobs. Still have the houses. Still have the student loans. Now I'm supposed to live on $11,000 a year? Come join the real world (not you, but the poster before).
Very clever, but ultimately a ridiculous response. My point is that if the answer to all of us who don't have a job is to retool and learn a marketable trade, my answer is that this costs money. At one point does one reach a point of diminishing returns on this? I know I have already. I have $28,000 in student loans and no job to show for it. That's not my fault. I did the best I could to get out of poverty, given the information I had at the time. I can't keep retooling forever, otherwise by the time I'm done I'll never be able to retire. But you probably wouldn't understand this as you weren't forced to make this choice.
That's a great idea. Are you going to pay off the $30,000 in student loans I had to take out when I was hoodwinked into believing the way out of poverty (which I truly grew up in) was to get an education? Otherwise I have to make more than $11,000 a year. As do, I imagine, most people here. Many of us didn't get a free ride or stumble right from high school into the tech sector. Some did. Others of us have had to fight a little harder, maybe assume a little debt at a young age when we didn't know any better.
You don't seem to understand. Even if my skills were 4 times better, it costs 4 times as much to live in this country. I have no control over that. Can't you get that through your thick skull?
Secondly, how do you know anyone is doing a better job than me? I'm perfectly qualified. It's just a crummy job market. A buyers market, if you will. I have no control over that. Unemployment has indeed held steady, but the standard of living had gone down as middle class jobs have turned into service jobs.
So what you're saying is that once we're all working at Target/Wal-Mart we'll have the ideal economy?
"The poor who do not embrace capitalism"???? Huh???? What else do I have to do to embrace capitalism? I went to college, dutifully took out copious debt to get my education and now that I'm educated I got a full 7 years of being employed before I lost my job. What do I do now to "embrace capitalism"? Line up for my job at Wal-Mart? Borrow another $30,000 to educated again so I can get a job, then start over again? I was poor. I did what I could to embrace capitalism, now I'm out of work. There are no jobs to be had. What else should I do to "embrace capitalism" oh guru of capitalism?
Except that in the process the rich are turning into the mega rich. So eventually we'll have distributed the wealth to the point where the entire planet is poor except for a small elite rich.
Oh wait, we're already almost there. Great world we're headed towards.
Slashdot Mirror
Bad example about doctors going back to medical school. Let's pretend that ever 7 years doctors have to pay upwards of $30,000 to get a whole new career. In the middle there fill in a year or two of being laid off. That's comparable to what's happening to some of us in IT right now.
So you're missing the point. I'm not saying one can't learn outside of school. In fact, as I've said in many other posts, I've spent upwards of 20 hours a week since I graduated to teach myself new technology. Going from an English degree holder with HTML and JavaScript knowlege to a Java developer with expertise in everything from SQL to Server administration.
The problem, though, is that if jobs don't exist, period, what the apologists are telling us is to retrain for totally different fields. Like Nanotechnology or biochemistry, etc. Am I going to learn that at home? Am I going to buy "Learn Biochemistry in 24 Hours"? Is there a "Professional Nanotechnology" book by Wrox?
So please explain to me how I'm not being professional. I'm learning everything there is to learn outside of spending tons of money to retrain myself completely for a completely different high-level career. Get it yet???
???????????????????
I have $30,000 in student loans. My wife has $28,000. We had to do that to get out of poverty. You try paying that back. You try walking in my shoes and you can say something like that. Otherwise you don't know what you're talking about.
And I didn't have 10 years of booming economy. I had like 4. I graduated in 1997 and worked my way up from English degree holder and HTML "developer" to Java developer in 7 years. So I missed out on most of the big pay years during the "boom".
So frankly, get bent.
I was that naive. I had no choice. It was milk cows and live in poverty or borrow my way into education and possibly a better life. I know there are no guarantees, but I was pretty sure I'd be able to get a better job than milking cows. Right now, if all the white collar jobs flee overseas, I'm not so sure. That's my point.
I have the desire, btw. I worked 40 hours a week and put myself through college. Then I worked 40-70 hours a week for the last 7 years while also putting time in to teach myself new skills. I deserve success. I've earned it. The fact that the jobs just aren't here is the problem.
First off, when your options are milk cows or go to school and when everyone is telling you education is the key, you don't really have much of a choice. It's education or poverty. Some of us don't have a middle ground choice really. Secondly, I don't think I deserve a $100k job or even a $60k job. But I certainly deserve better than a $11k job. I think I've earned that through years of hard work and improving my skills. The reason I might not get it is because I live in a nation with a high cost of living.
Thank you! Finally someone who gets it.
Excuse me? I worked 40 hours a week while I went through school to make up the difference between what I could get in loans and what my education cost. Then I spent 7 years working 40-70 hours a week plus 20 hours a week off hours learning new skills. I've worked hard enough. That's not the problem. The problem is that I can't afford to take $11,000 a year because it costs more to live in this country. Why is that so exceedingly difficult to understand?
You don't seem to get it. And yes, that was an insult. Saying something like that to someone, when you know nothing of their background is unsulting and immature. I'm a professional. I put myself through college. Worked 40 hours a week while working full time so I didn't end up poor like my parents. And, what do you know, I didn't end up poor. I made a career for myself. Or, at least I thought I did. I then proceeded to work some 20 hours a week off-hours learning new skills to stay fresh and stay ahead of the curve and, what do you know, still not poor. Things are going well.
Suddenly the job goes away. The market sucks. My choices are finite. Especially since I still owe $30,000 in student loans. My options are, go get more school or..... what? Take a lower paying job and hope I can still take care of my family?
I agree with keeping up your skills, but that's not what you're talking about. I was more than willing to do that. What we're talking about here is completely remaking your career at the cost of an entire education every time something like this happens. That's not doable. I wouldn't expect a doctor to go back to medical school every 7 years. Nor should you expect me to completely retool my skillset from scratch to bend to the market. It's just not economically viable. In the end I'll lose more money than I'll make. Thus the service job starts looking attractive.
It's about economics. If I have to spend money to make less money than I spent, then I'm not ahead of the game. Get it?
It's not meaningless, it's true. Capitalism taken to the 9th degree will eventually be unsustainable. Who will buy the products when everyone is either mega-rich or poor?
For the record, the only way in which I'm jealous is that I'm jealous I don't live in a country where the cost of living is this low. I'm not jealous of the rich. Never wanted to be rich. Just wanted to take care of my wife and I and not be poor. Apparantly that makes me greedy.
But the point is, what if you've already made that choice? What if you have kids already (which I don't)? Or $30,000 in student loans (which I do)? There really isn't any turning back. You can't undo children or loans? So your 11g figure is bogus.
I worked on C64's in my youth. I'm 28. Are you saying I should be making $150,000 by now? Should EVERYONE with skill be making $150,000 by that point in their lives or their losers/slackers? I fail to see your logic.
There are too many of us fighting for too few jobs, many of which are now going overseas. I can do the job. It just doesn't exist any longer. Or there are less of them. Get it?
Adapt how? Adapt to jobs that don't exist (i.e. the aforementioned manufacturing jobs)? Adapt by getting MORE education at MORE cost while your family starves and/or you divorce your wife because you never see her? Explain to me how to adapt to a market where jobs don't exist in my field and I still owe for the previous time I "adapted" and I'll gladly take that road. But I've looked and I don't see anything but a path to worsening economic conditions for the majority of us. Just because things are good for you doesn't deny the reality of the situation for the rest of us.
And for the record the rich are getting much richer and most don't spend money on the things you've mentioned. The income disparity in this country has gone from something like 50 times to 1000 times. Not all of that money is being reinvested in jobs that benefit the middle class.
This is different. The end game here is that the rich are widening the gap between themselves and the middle class to a gross excess that history has never seen. There's absolutely no comparison. This is capitalism eating itself.
This is the boat I'm in. My education is a burden, not a help. Wasn't that way when I started, but it is where it ended. And I never got to make $80,000 in between, in spite of the fact that I have a wide variety of skills.
Or maybe he's young? Or maybe he likes what he does? Jesus!
Yes. I can see our quality of life increasing exponentially under this kind of structure. I can take out another $30,000+ in loans or else I can not see my family/work full time/go to school full time as I retool in the hopes that when I'm done I don't need to go back to step *A* and repeat all over again in order to get a job.
Sounds like a super idea.
Of course, if (in my haste to respond to the crap being posted on this board) I commit typos like "their" instead of "there" too often, I might end up a Wal-Mart greeter anyway. :-)
Oh boy. You're all over the map. Did it ever occur to you that hard-working people also get caught in this? Not just "union thugs" and the lazy?
I think I have the answer. Change my name, so I can get rid of the student loans and the mortgage. Divorce my wife. Eventually I will find nirvana.
Good post.
That's essentially the problem for many of us. We did what we were supposed to, or what we thought we had to to compete. We saw the manufacturing jobs fleeing, so we took out student loans, etc. to get better jobs. We got those better jobs, which came with higher taxes. So we bought houses. Now, all of a sudden, we have no jobs. Still have the houses. Still have the student loans. Now I'm supposed to live on $11,000 a year? Come join the real world (not you, but the poster before).
Very clever, but ultimately a ridiculous response. My point is that if the answer to all of us who don't have a job is to retool and learn a marketable trade, my answer is that this costs money. At one point does one reach a point of diminishing returns on this? I know I have already. I have $28,000 in student loans and no job to show for it. That's not my fault. I did the best I could to get out of poverty, given the information I had at the time. I can't keep retooling forever, otherwise by the time I'm done I'll never be able to retire. But you probably wouldn't understand this as you weren't forced to make this choice.
That's a great idea. Are you going to pay off the $30,000 in student loans I had to take out when I was hoodwinked into believing the way out of poverty (which I truly grew up in) was to get an education? Otherwise I have to make more than $11,000 a year. As do, I imagine, most people here. Many of us didn't get a free ride or stumble right from high school into the tech sector. Some did. Others of us have had to fight a little harder, maybe assume a little debt at a young age when we didn't know any better.
You don't seem to understand. Even if my skills were 4 times better, it costs 4 times as much to live in this country. I have no control over that. Can't you get that through your thick skull?
Secondly, how do you know anyone is doing a better job than me? I'm perfectly qualified. It's just a crummy job market. A buyers market, if you will. I have no control over that. Unemployment has indeed held steady, but the standard of living had gone down as middle class jobs have turned into service jobs.
So what you're saying is that once we're all working at Target/Wal-Mart we'll have the ideal economy?
"The poor who do not embrace capitalism"???? Huh???? What else do I have to do to embrace capitalism? I went to college, dutifully took out copious debt to get my education and now that I'm educated I got a full 7 years of being employed before I lost my job. What do I do now to "embrace capitalism"? Line up for my job at Wal-Mart? Borrow another $30,000 to educated again so I can get a job, then start over again? I was poor. I did what I could to embrace capitalism, now I'm out of work. There are no jobs to be had. What else should I do to "embrace capitalism" oh guru of capitalism?
Except that in the process the rich are turning into the mega rich. So eventually we'll have distributed the wealth to the point where the entire planet is poor except for a small elite rich.
Oh wait, we're already almost there. Great world we're headed towards.