Issues like loop length and the way the traffic is carried over the backbone can be issues for deploying DSL or Cable. We won't even address the reliability factor.
Try putting a server shelling out even 256kbps averages and see what the @home folks do. Cable doesn't support up speeds anywhere near the rate of a T-1. DSL tops out at between 1.1Mbps and 1.5Mbps, that is if you meet the loop qual and their aren't a shit load of bridge taps on the circuit.
T-1s far more flexible, reliable and available than any broadband. Cable isn't even an option for any professional business, and DSL is still limited in many areas and applications.
DSL traffic with most Baby Bells is carried on the an ATM backbone. When traffic is high, your DSL connection may train down to a lower throughput. Covad and Northpoint use their own networks, so this mitigates this issue.
A T-1 is a T-1, 1.5Mbps. While a 7MB down is good for surfing. A 700k up is less than half a T-1 on the server side. We only have a moderate site, and peak at 512k several times per day.
In about 15 years of various online activities, from Wildcat BBS to Usenet to WWWBoard to Slashdot, and I haven't found that to be the case. I've found linear boards harder to follow, and more easily able to fragment or hinder a discussion, precisely because the thread structure is hard to follow. It's like a mailing list, unless one quotes ruthlessly, it's difficult at times to ascertain where in the disussion one is reading. Threads are a quick, easy way for users to view a message tree, and decide weather or not to read the entire tree, based on the subject titles and posts.
And there is a chap by the name of Mike Sosteric that took the last GPL version of W3T and did a complete rewrite. He added an API, and cleaned up the code a significant amount. It's pretty much the package on which I've decided. The version 1.0 has better performance than W3T, but has fewer features and a few show stopper issues. The package is called Bazaar, (http://www.icaap.org/Bazaar/) and it's licensed under GPL.
Though the 2.0 version is still alpha and mostly likely a month or so away from even considering production deployment, Mike is pounding away at the code. Source available via CVS tree at nl.linux.org.
When I first migrated the mailing list to the Web nearly 5 years ago, I considered NNTP. I'd been on Usenet since about 1989. There were a few like forums at the time on Compuserve. Operating a Wildcat BBS in the mid 80's, the Web was a natural choice.
I didn't choose NNTP for a variety of reasons. Usenet was out of the question. That was about the time that the public started to find Usenet and we all know what happened after that. NNTP, evenon a private server, isn't as flexible as a Web based board to administer. This is a tightly controled forum, though not fully moderated. There are also user configuration issues to deal with, as an NNTP client is not quite as ubiqutious as a browser. Browsers are easy for the pariticipants. We are finding these same user configuration issues, with IRC for our live chat. We have to remember, not everyone is "hooked up", when it comes to using computers. For the widest audience, we have to cater to the lowest common denominator..
Er, you know who Bill Joy IS, don't you? Ever use vi?
The only reason I even bothered to read it was because it WAS written by Joy. How you say, is just as important as what you say. That still doesn't excuse the fact that particular style is difficult to read. Old habit, so fucking what?
I'm well familiar with vi, but I don't hold that against him........;-)
M$ could no more "hijack" Linux or anything Gnu than I could hijack Coke by adding vanilla syrup to it and selling it at a roadside stand.
Not at all the same. Some intellectual property issues addressed in the GPL are ambiguous, at best. The one that cracks me up the most, is section 7, stating effectively, that if a court or other judgment finds against you regarding IP issues with the property under license, that you are still required to uphold any contested parts of the license. Yeah, I'd like to see that stand up under challenge.
There haven't been any landmark challenges to the GPL, not any of which I'm aware.
It would be quite easy for MS to appropriate Linux, and I doubt that anyone could pony up the money for a civil case. If they did, MS would use the OJ defense that they did during the DOJ trial. The only reason they haven't taken a full frontal assault, is that the DOJ judgement is pending. Don't think for a minute they wouldn't have crushed the movement on a commercial level if Big Brother wasn't watching.
Even if someone did manage a case if MS appropriated Linux, it would be a few years before it was brought to trial and settled. Just determining the various copyright holders that have contributed to Linux would be a gigantic undertaking.
GPL may not make it into the world of big business, based on the wording of the license. The sooner the OSS zealots and exteremists recognize and accept the limitations of the GPL langauge, the better for for the Linux community as a whole.
The servlet engine is not happening on Cobalt Linux yet. Once they iron the bugs of Jetspeed, it looks like a great way to do this kind of thing, and would be worth changing hardware platforms to be able to accomodate that.
As the original poster, I want to address a few things.
First, the original script has been in use for more than four years, with scores of mods. Only over the past year or so, has it shown any signs of wear. The tradeoff with using Matt's script, even modified, is in admin flexiblity and the several well known hacks that can wipe out the message board. Hence the reason I haven't posted the URL here. The last thing I need is a bunch of fucking script kiddies running over there trying to topple the board.
I did buy a copy of Web Board earlier this year. The performance on a dual PII 233 with 512MB RAM (Dell Poweredge 2200) was horrible. There was a nasty issue where Web Board virtually locked up one of the processors. There were also other issues relating to performance.
Support at the ORA site was anything but but helpful, denying any problems, until some other posts meticulously detailed the issue. Then there was no comment. It's a classic case for Open Source, as there were several on the forum with the chops to take a look and fix what was wrong, but the nature of closed software prohibited such.
I'm probably not the only one with whom the irony is not lost on the fact the Tim O'Reilly, while lately pushing OSS models, still has Web Board under an commercial license, for a single platform.
Cost is another issue. Counting NT, SQL Server, Web Board, the cost was near US$3000.00, for software alone. Add hardware and support, plus Resource Kit docs, and it's around US$7000, or US$8000.
The cost of the current solution, including hardware, is about US$2500.00, plus another US$500 or so in ORA books (I DO like the ORA books and CD kits) Our users perceive our current solution as faster, easier to use. We're all about the users, because they are the one's that make it happen.
I've got a few solutions being tested, with the most promising three being W3T (deployed since June), Bazaar (went up two days ago, still beta, but GPL and very promising) and one I'm putting up right now, RPG (suggested by another/.er)
The real problem now, is how to deal with the nearly 30,000 messages in the archive since January.
There is plenty of hardware and throughput to serve our load. The reason we allow users to initiate and post threads, is because it is a user to user forum. Moderating the post submission defeats that purpose, and would cause an extra work load for the admin.
I was able to get a MIPS Cobalt distribution of Webcrossing, and it's pretty good, except for the lack of threading capability. One thing the users want more than anything, is to be able to view the messages in a threaded mode.
Max writes: I have been to the US of A several times, and found out the level of liberty out there is really lower than what I'm living here in evil Europe.
Having lived in both Europe and the US, there is without a doubt a substantial difference in the way each deal with personal liberties, particularly with regard to personal freedom and the right of the state to interfere.
The control excerted over citizenry in many parts of Europe is far greater than in the US. As an example, as part of the EU, you may be stopped at any point and asked for identification, at certain areas around borders and train stations. There is no such equivalent in the US. You also are required in many parts of Europe to carry your passport, even as a citizen of the country. There is no requirement to posess ANY kind of identification in the US, except for certain priveleges, such as driving, gambling or drinking alcohol. At one point, when I lived in Britain, they had roving trucks that monitored who was watching TV, as to make certian the licenses were paid. There is no equivalent in the US.
You see Max, in the US there is a principal embodied in a document called The US Constitution. The basic gist of it is, the Country belongs to the people, and the government only runs it, as a sort of servant. There are certain freedoms, guaranteed, that most other countries in the world do not have. Paramount, the freedom of speech and expression, the right against self incrimination, the right to due process, the presumption of innocence, the right to vote, right against unreasonable search, right to assemble, the right to a trial by a jury of your peers, and the right to bear arms, among others.
Having traveled extensively overseas during the past 20 years, with some living time abroad, in my observation there are personal freedoms allowed in the US, of which many others can only dream, particularly in terms of the judical system and the police.
Your observations of the US are stereotypical, and grossly exagerated. There are not roaming bands of gun toting theives, and everyone's neighbor doesn't sue them.
You are just resorting to the same tactics of which you accuse others. We call that hypocrisy. In truth, you know as little about the way of life in the US, and the US system of democracy, as much as you accuse others of the lack of knowledge of socialism.
If you don't like it, go get your own servers, host your own community and see what it takes.
Other than what should be a vast improvement to the miserable performance for a site this size, now maybe this might have the added benefit of thinning the heard some, so punks without much to contribute will haul their narrow asses out of/.
Having an opinion is fine. Being a prick isn't.
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out...................
In Washington State, USWest has become immune to threats of a complaint, since so many people complain. I've had to go to the State three times on ISDN issues. Twice for being non responsive to install orders, and once for billing for a service that wasn't able to be turned up, due to the building wiring.
After 8 months, I got a single $1000 plus bill, for the previous 8 months. When contacted, USWest offered to waive the install and first month, only. The State took care of it and I ended up with a credit.
Anyone that says having USWest is good, hasn't used them.
SDSL from USWest in Seattle is US$29.95 month for 256k. ISDN 128k BRI is about US$75 a month. DSL is far less expensive than ISDN. The problem is that you have to deal with USWest to get it.
We just got (well, they are pulling the bridge taps off our loop) 1.1MB SDSL from Covad for US$349 a month including router and a/20 hunk of IP addresses. The problem is that Covad has to get USWest to provision a clean loop.
If Linux were sold by Microsoft, would you be using it? If it was just the MS name, probably not. As another poster noted, under the GPL you can't "sell" Linux, except for duplication and manual costs.
We pay several thousand dollars a year to MS for what I feel is poor support for NT. Just to keep NT up to date with the latest revs, requires in our environment a few hundred dollars a year, in just patches.
In terms of the quality and knowledge of the personel providing support at MS, many times is most unimpressive, considering the per incident cost of NT support.
Windows of any flavor is expensive to support, and even more so when one counts the MCP or MCSE training costs.
We deploy several solutions. Windows has its problems, Macs have theirs, Linux has its problems. One has to look at the deployment of a specific OS for a specific task. Just because the solution has an MS tag on it, doesn't make it any better for the intended deployement.
I'd agree that a text editor is the way to go, but Notepad? Yuck!
Bare Bones BBEdit is FAR AND AWAY the best text tool for the creation and editing of ANY kind of text, programming language or HTML. Removes, creates and edits line breaks across three platforms, real helpful for Perl editing. Ever try to run a Perl script with DOS line breaks on a UN*X server, without converting them? It also denotes syntax by color for several different langauges, including HTML and Perl.
It also opens and saves DIRECTLY to ftp servers. And has a very comprehensive syntax checker.
It's small, takes about a meg of ram, easy to use, far easier than any UNIX based test editor, and simple to install, just drag it over to your hard drive. It costs just under US$100. If you program using a Mac based IDE, you can use BBEdit as your editor,and run your debugger from inside BBEdit.
There is NOTHING else like it on ANY platform. Some might think a caveat is that it is Mac only, but it and Photoshop and Pro Tools are three of the main reasons we still have Macs in our mixed NT, Solaris, Linux and Mac shop.
Slashdot Mirror
Dave
You can lose your trademark, NOT your copyright.
Dave
Try putting a server shelling out even 256kbps averages and see what the @home folks do. Cable doesn't support up speeds anywhere near the rate of a T-1. DSL tops out at between 1.1Mbps and 1.5Mbps, that is if you meet the loop qual and their aren't a shit load of bridge taps on the circuit.
T-1s far more flexible, reliable and available than any broadband. Cable isn't even an option for any professional business, and DSL is still limited in many areas and applications.
Dave
A T-1 is a T-1, 1.5Mbps. While a 7MB down is good for surfing. A 700k up is less than half a T-1 on the server side. We only have a moderate site, and peak at 512k several times per day.
Dave
The T-1 offered by the coop does not include Telco loop charges, which add another US$300 or so.
Dave
Dave
Though the 2.0 version is still alpha and mostly likely a month or so away from even considering production deployment, Mike is pounding away at the code. Source available via CVS tree at nl.linux.org.
Dave
I didn't choose NNTP for a variety of reasons. Usenet was out of the question. That was about the time that the public started to find Usenet and we all know what happened after that. NNTP, evenon a private server, isn't as flexible as a Web based board to administer. This is a tightly controled forum, though not fully moderated. There are also user configuration issues to deal with, as an NNTP client is not quite as ubiqutious as a browser. Browsers are easy for the pariticipants. We are finding these same user configuration issues, with IRC for our live chat. We have to remember, not everyone is "hooked up", when it comes to using computers. For the widest audience, we have to cater to the lowest common denominator..
Dave
The only reason I even bothered to read it was because it WAS written by Joy. How you say, is just as important as what you say. That still doesn't excuse the fact that particular style is difficult to read. Old habit, so fucking what?
I'm well familiar with vi, but I don't hold that against him........ ;-)
Dave
Not at all the same. Some intellectual property issues addressed in the GPL are ambiguous, at best. The one that cracks me up the most, is section 7, stating effectively, that if a court or other judgment finds against you regarding IP issues with the property under license, that you are still required to uphold any contested parts of the license. Yeah, I'd like to see that stand up under challenge.
There haven't been any landmark challenges to the GPL, not any of which I'm aware.
It would be quite easy for MS to appropriate Linux, and I doubt that anyone could pony up the money for a civil case. If they did, MS would use the OJ defense that they did during the DOJ trial. The only reason they haven't taken a full frontal assault, is that the DOJ judgement is pending. Don't think for a minute they wouldn't have crushed the movement on a commercial level if Big Brother wasn't watching.
Even if someone did manage a case if MS appropriated Linux, it would be a few years before it was brought to trial and settled. Just determining the various copyright holders that have contributed to Linux would be a gigantic undertaking.
GPL may not make it into the world of big business, based on the wording of the license. The sooner the OSS zealots and exteremists recognize and accept the limitations of the GPL langauge, the better for for the Linux community as a whole.
Dave
Hmmmmmm, that's actually a quote attributed to Stallman, NOT Joy.
Dave
Would that OS be Linux, or Solaris? ;-)
Dave
The servlet engine is not happening on Cobalt Linux yet. Once they iron the bugs of Jetspeed, it looks like a great way to do this kind of thing, and would be worth changing hardware platforms to be able to accomodate that.
Dave
First, the original script has been in use for more than four years, with scores of mods. Only over the past year or so, has it shown any signs of wear. The tradeoff with using Matt's script, even modified, is in admin flexiblity and the several well known hacks that can wipe out the message board. Hence the reason I haven't posted the URL here. The last thing I need is a bunch of fucking script kiddies running over there trying to topple the board.
I did buy a copy of Web Board earlier this year. The performance on a dual PII 233 with 512MB RAM (Dell Poweredge 2200) was horrible. There was a nasty issue where Web Board virtually locked up one of the processors. There were also other issues relating to performance.
Support at the ORA site was anything but but helpful, denying any problems, until some other posts meticulously detailed the issue. Then there was no comment. It's a classic case for Open Source, as there were several on the forum with the chops to take a look and fix what was wrong, but the nature of closed software prohibited such.
I'm probably not the only one with whom the irony is not lost on the fact the Tim O'Reilly, while lately pushing OSS models, still has Web Board under an commercial license, for a single platform.
Cost is another issue. Counting NT, SQL Server, Web Board, the cost was near US$3000.00, for software alone. Add hardware and support, plus Resource Kit docs, and it's around US$7000, or US$8000.
The cost of the current solution, including hardware, is about US$2500.00, plus another US$500 or so in ORA books (I DO like the ORA books and CD kits) Our users perceive our current solution as faster, easier to use. We're all about the users, because they are the one's that make it happen.
I've got a few solutions being tested, with the most promising three being W3T (deployed since June), Bazaar (went up two days ago, still beta, but GPL and very promising) and one I'm putting up right now, RPG (suggested by another /.er)
The real problem now, is how to deal with the nearly 30,000 messages in the archive since January.
Dave
There is plenty of hardware and throughput to serve our load. The reason we allow users to initiate and post threads, is because it is a user to user forum. Moderating the post submission defeats that purpose, and would cause an extra work load for the admin.
Dave
I was able to get a MIPS Cobalt distribution of Webcrossing, and it's pretty good, except for the lack of threading capability. One thing the users want more than anything, is to be able to view the messages in a threaded mode.
Dave
Having lived in both Europe and the US, there is without a doubt a substantial difference in the way each deal with personal liberties, particularly with regard to personal freedom and the right of the state to interfere.
The control excerted over citizenry in many parts of Europe is far greater than in the US. As an example, as part of the EU, you may be stopped at any point and asked for identification, at certain areas around borders and train stations. There is no such equivalent in the US. You also are required in many parts of Europe to carry your passport, even as a citizen of the country. There is no requirement to posess ANY kind of identification in the US, except for certain priveleges, such as driving, gambling or drinking alcohol. At one point, when I lived in Britain, they had roving trucks that monitored who was watching TV, as to make certian the licenses were paid. There is no equivalent in the US.
You see Max, in the US there is a principal embodied in a document called The US Constitution. The basic gist of it is, the Country belongs to the people, and the government only runs it, as a sort of servant. There are certain freedoms, guaranteed, that most other countries in the world do not have. Paramount, the freedom of speech and expression, the right against self incrimination, the right to due process, the presumption of innocence, the right to vote, right against unreasonable search, right to assemble, the right to a trial by a jury of your peers, and the right to bear arms, among others.
Having traveled extensively overseas during the past 20 years, with some living time abroad, in my observation there are personal freedoms allowed in the US, of which many others can only dream, particularly in terms of the judical system and the police.
Your observations of the US are stereotypical, and grossly exagerated. There are not roaming bands of gun toting theives, and everyone's neighbor doesn't sue them.
You are just resorting to the same tactics of which you accuse others. We call that hypocrisy. In truth, you know as little about the way of life in the US, and the US system of democracy, as much as you accuse others of the lack of knowledge of socialism.
If you don't like it, go get your own servers, host your own community and see what it takes.
/.
Other than what should be a vast improvement to the miserable performance for a site this size, now maybe this might have the added benefit of thinning the heard some, so punks without much to contribute will haul their narrow asses out of
Having an opinion is fine. Being a prick isn't.
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out...................
Dave
In Washington State, USWest has become immune to threats of a complaint, since so many people complain. I've had to go to the State three times on ISDN issues. Twice for being non responsive to install orders, and once for billing for a service that wasn't able to be turned up, due to the building wiring.
After 8 months, I got a single $1000 plus bill, for the previous 8 months. When contacted, USWest offered to waive the install and first month, only. The State took care of it and I ended up with a credit.
Anyone that says having USWest is good, hasn't used them.
Dave
SDSL from USWest in Seattle is US$29.95 month for 256k. ISDN 128k BRI is about US$75 a month. DSL is far less expensive than ISDN. The problem is that you have to deal with USWest to get it.
/20 hunk of IP addresses. The problem is that Covad has to get USWest to provision a clean loop.
We just got (well, they are pulling the bridge taps off our loop) 1.1MB SDSL from Covad for US$349 a month including router and a
Dave
If it was just the MS name, probably not. As another poster noted, under the GPL you can't "sell" Linux, except for duplication and manual costs.
We pay several thousand dollars a year to MS for what I feel is poor support for NT. Just to keep NT up to date with the latest revs, requires in our environment a few hundred dollars a year, in just patches.
In terms of the quality and knowledge of the personel providing support at MS, many times is most unimpressive, considering the per incident cost of NT support.
Windows of any flavor is expensive to support, and even more so when one counts the MCP or MCSE training costs.
We deploy several solutions. Windows has its problems, Macs have theirs, Linux has its problems. One has to look at the deployment of a specific OS for a specific task. Just because the solution has an MS tag on it, doesn't make it any better for the intended deployement.
Dave
I'd agree that a text editor is the way to go, but Notepad? Yuck!
:-)
Bare Bones BBEdit is FAR AND AWAY the best text tool for the creation and editing of ANY kind of text, programming language or HTML. Removes, creates and edits line breaks across three platforms, real helpful for Perl editing. Ever try to run a Perl script with DOS line breaks on a UN*X server, without converting them? It also denotes syntax by color for several different langauges, including HTML and Perl.
It also opens and saves DIRECTLY to ftp servers. And has a very comprehensive syntax checker.
It's small, takes about a meg of ram, easy to use, far easier than any UNIX based test editor, and simple to install, just drag it over to your hard drive. It costs just under US$100. If you program using a Mac based IDE, you can use BBEdit as your editor,and run your debugger from inside BBEdit.
There is NOTHING else like it on ANY platform. Some might think a caveat is that it is Mac only, but it and Photoshop and Pro Tools are three of the main reasons we still have Macs in our mixed NT, Solaris, Linux and Mac shop.
Besides, it's a good excuse to buy an iMac.
Dave