While I'm not saying Replicans are bad and Democrats are good, a large part of the political base for many Republicans is the religious right. While I prefer people explore religion and spirituality (and accept or reject it based on what they learn, not on what they are told to do/believe), it seems to me the churches and organizations in the religious right have always had a strong focus on telling people what to do and how to behave.
What do you expect when the government is controlled by politicians that depend on this religious right for a large number of their votes?
First -- This person has asked a perfectly valid question. He wants to use Linux for video/digital film production. Comments that tell him/her to get illegal copies of software or to switch to a Mac (which just assumes he has the extra money to run out and buy one) are not only not helpful, but are basically a rude way of saying, "I don't have an answer for you, but I want to act like I do, so I'll just suggest something that doesn't really answer your question."
Second -- This is definately an area where Linux does not have the software. I've spent years in video. I d/l'ed Adobe Premiere (the 30 day demo version) and found it extremely easy to use for someone who is used to "real" video editing. I've tried Cinelerra several times, in test installs, and I've found it to be anything BUT easy to comprehend. This stuff about it being "advanced" or for "advanced users" doesn't wash with me. I have the experience and it's just a pain in the but to find your way around the program. The interface is anything BUT intuitive. (As someone pointed out earlier, in editing, this is a time when you need to focus on the work, not on getting your tools to work.)
Now, after those comments, here's what, to me, seems a useful suggestion and what I am currently planning. The company Main Concept is a German company. The last version of their editing program, Main Actor (V. 3.65) cost US $100 and worked on Linux and Windows. It's not Premiere, but for $100, I found it a good comparison. Currently the program is unavailable because they are preparing for the release of version 5.0. If you go to their site, you can download a Windows version of their V 5.0 beta 3 and test it out. This version is roughly comprable with Premiere 6.0. Some features aren't as good, but some are better (for instance, there was no smart gain for audio, but there are more sound adjustment abilities in MA than in Premiere). When I last corresponded with the people at Main Concept (when the beta 2 was out), they were still integrating some features into the betas and final version.
It will probably cost more than the US $100 price of their last version, but I wouldn't expect it to be any more than $150 or so. While it's not open source, and it's not free, it is a good solid program and will do what a video editor needs. They are also working on porting their effects program over to Linux as well.
I don't expect to see much more in the way of video editing in the open source field for a while. It involves too much GUI programming and the kind of intuitive feel that programmers seem to hate to deal with unless they have to.
Before I was even a teenager, I was putting together working Heathkit radios (and other kits). I learned to program in high school, back in the 1970's, on a PDP 11. I used to program in Assembler (often hand coded) on an Apple//e in the 1980s for a hobby. I had my first program sale (an Assembler program) to a magazine before I graduated from college in the mid 1980's.
While I'm sure someone will come in as a troll and think they can be clever by twisting what I say, my point is I have a background of working with technical material -- a background of over 30 years of it.
I tried a test install of Debian on my video workstation. I needed to get the system up and running, get X working, be able to use my USB ramdrive, firewire IO for DV import, get the video IO on my ATI Radeon AIW working, get a CD-RW working, get my DVD player (also the 2nd CD-ROM) working to play NON-CSS DVDs.
After a week, I still could not get X to work with my Radeon card. Even on the Debian mailing list, nobody knew what to do. Not being used to Debian, I hesitated to change from stable to unstable or testing, but I finally did it. The newer version of X worked.
While that, in the long run, was a simple fix, it's just one of the symptoms of what I see as an overall Debian problem. It takes so long for programs to be integrated in the stable branch, hardware that has been out for over 18 months is still unsupported!
As to the CD-RW and DVD, it's true all it takes is links, but there's a problem there, and I'm going to sound quite snotty in saying this (and probably get modded to troll immediately for speaking the truth). I've worked with many programmers, techies, non-techies, and the whole range. The Debian community has a BIG problem of being closed minded. In any distro discussion, there's always got to be a few Debian people who pop up and say, "Hey! Debian is the best." Look at this discussion -- it's happened here.
The problem is, at least in my experience, Debian-ites are so busy being right, they are not interested in listening to other opinions. Whenever I say the install (and post install setup) is impossible unless you're a programmer, I always hear, "But you only have to install it once!" I have never, ever, seen any case, in person, or online, where someone said, Debian has a problem with this, and that's why I don't use it and a Debian person replied, "Hmmmm, you're right. Maybe we should look into it." It's always, "But that's not really a problem. Just do it the way that works for us."
My point: I am doing a LOT of programming and I don't consider myself a professional programmer. I'm just doing what I need to do to run my business. I'm working long hours. I don't have time to fart around with adding links to get my CD-RW working. I don't have time to do a lot of post-install work. I need to put in a CD, go through the prompts, and get the box up and running so I can use it for production. If Debian were the only Linux distro out, I'd use WinXP instead. I know that a lot of Debian-ites and programmers will respond to that with something like, "Let him use WinXP..." followed by comments about incompetents that can't or shouldn't be allowed to use Linux. That attitude is doing more to keep Linux tucked away in server rooms and in a tiny corner of the market than anything M$ could ever do.
I've included more than I planned, but the point is, for those of us who have other things to do and a limited time to spend putting our boxes together so we can actually use them to produce services or products, we can't mess around with trial and error setups or researching problems because 18 month old hardware is not well supported wit ha distro. We need to install and get it working. When we have the time, then we can explore and learn.
The computer, to many of us, is nothing more than a tool. A good craftsman, in any field, needs good and reliable tools, but they also have to be able to focus on their work, not on fixing or setting up their tools.
If/When Debian can fit my needs, and can do it without me having to go through and re-adjust everything AFTER an install, I'll be more than happy to use it (the idea of keeping a system up to date w/ a 1 line nightly cron job is VERY appealing), until then, in its present form, Debian is by programmers and for programmers. Unfortunately, this group of people seems incapable of understand there is more than one way to do anything and that their way may work for them, but may not work at all for others.
Actually, if you're not messing w/ CSS, it isn't a problem.
I'm using this in video production, but the Debian didn't even create a mount point for the darn thing -- or even treat it as a 2nd CD-ROM.
While it doesn't take much to make these links, in my case I'm setting up boxes to use for production. I'm not using my boxes to create utilities and make programs that help me write programs. I'm using my computers as tools to get work done. While I hear Debian is easy to maintain, the fact that it's such a pain to install has kept me (and a few other people I know who want to use Linux in their businesses) from bothering it. Quite frankly, if you're business is anything other than programming or sys admin work, Debian is such a pain to install it's not cost effective to waste time learning all it requires to get it up and running.
I don't mean to be rude, and I'm not trying to troll, but I've wrestled with Debian installs before. I am running a business and, due to time constraints, I finally just installed Mandrake, since I could get it up and running and didn't have to muck around with creating extra links for my DVD player, and other junk.
After my experience with Debian and the Debian installer, I would say expecting Debian admins/maintainers/programmers to produce a producet easy enough to install to be considered desktop is kind of like expecting RMS to make a discreet statement, Bill Gates to start promoting OSS, or Britany Spears to record a tolerable album.
It just ain't gonna happen. It's the nature of the scorpion story. (If you don't remember the story about the nature of a scorpion, go back and watch the Trek Voyager 2 parter that introduced 7 of 9.)
Speaking as someone who spent 10 years teaching in treatment settings, I'm willing to bet your friend can't recommend an easy-to-use distro because he needs people to try something hard like Slack and fail so he can reinforce his opinion that he is smart and better than they are.
I wouldn't disagree with you. You have based your opinions on your own experience and done what works for you.
I think Mandrake is basically just Redhat with a better UI. I don't see a problem with it. It makes it easier for me to get a box up and running so I can use it faster.
Almost everybody I've seen who started with Mandrake is still using Linux, many who use it exclusively.
Yes that's correct: TO EASY.
That's like saying, "This car is too esay to start. All people have to do is turn a key and it starts. They don't learn anything when they buy it or when they run it. That means they'll have problems with it later.
For some of us, the computer is just a tool! That's right -- a tool. I use computers to do work. I bought a car so I could drive places, not to learn about automechanics. If I wanted to learn automechanics, I'd buy something I needed to restore so I could learn. I have five comptuers in my studio/office so I can work. So I can produce the products and services my clients need. Yes, I want to learn, but I can't afford to spend time learning when I need to produce.
In my eyes, the fact that it is easy is good. It means I can download or buy the product and use it to produce goods and services quickly. It costs me less, in man hours (and that translates to money) to get a Mandrake box up and running than to get almost any other distro (except Redhat) running. And, aside from Mandrake costing less to install because it is easy, that means I can be producing faster, which means I start making money with that box sooner.
I do not mean to offend, but your comment about it being too easy is a symptom of what I'm saying is a problem with the attitude behind some distros: that one should be at a certain level of intelligence or knowledge in order to use a Linux based system and if one is not there, one should get there now.
Maybe so. But, a year from now Debian will still be around, and Mandrake most likely won't be.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. Right off, the best example I can think of is Chrysler. They went under bankruptcy protection, but came back strong and even paid off loans and debts early.
If you don't like something about Debian, join up and change it.
Good point, but, to me, the computer is a tool. I use it in business. I'm not a programmer and, frankly, I don't have the time to sit around debating or going against the grain to try to improve.
If you spend some time and learn how Debian/GNU programs operate, you can work wonders.
Like I just said, to me the computer is a tool. Like a hammer. I'm in business, which means I produce products. I have to focus my time and efforts on producing products that make money, not on playing around with Debian and learning what it does.
Different people have different needs. I'm glad we have a lot of distros. I don't like seeing ANY distro go under.
My only complaint, in my original post, is that so many Debian fans keep talking about how wonderful it is, but seem unable to understand the basic fact that if you're interested in productivity, you don't have time to sit around learning a new system. You have to go with what works. Again, different people have different needs.
Oh, and whether or not one distro is around in a year and another is not does not prove anything. Betamax was better than VHS. When is the last time you saw a home betamax for sale in a store?
You may be a Linux newbie, but if you're setting up a PDC (or even know what it means), you're very familiar with computers, hardware, and networking. (I'm basing that not just on you setting up a PDC, but on the rest of what you're doing as well).
You obviously know your way around computers. Perhaps I should have specified that many people I've heard asking about a distro for newbies are not that technically oriented anyway. They just want an alternative to the monopoly or are curious.
Don't let the others at your LUG get to you. Be happy that there's a distro for you too.
That's my feeling. My complaint is about the techies who are so out of touch with anyone who is not at their level that they feel their solution is the best and others should adapt to their answer, rather than there being many answers that should adapt to the people involved.
Oh, one last note. For those who have been told that the Debian installer will kill you, read this: you only ever have to install Debian once.:-) per machine...;-)
I never knew this was a problem. I've never seen Mandrake users raggong on Redhat like that. If it is going on, I'd consider it the same as the attitudes I mention in the paragraph you quote. We all have our favorite distro. That's no reason or excuse to be ugly about others.
I could not agree with your post any more than I do. This is an intellectual elitist community and the members are beginning to get upset that other people are coming to play in their playground.
One of the biggest obstacles to widespread Linux adoption is the Linux community.
Actually, I copied the config file from Knoppix at one point, since Knoppix is Debian based and worked perfectly. I spent a LOT of time working with the X config files.
That was just one of MANY things I tried. Not one of the local Debian fans or anybody else I contacted had a good suggestion that actually worked.
My experience is that many Debian people have forgotten the install because updates are so easy. That's the reason I wanted to change over. If/When I can get Debian working on that machine, I'll probably switch. In the meantime, it's Mandrake, which I got up and running quickly and even got all the extras (like firewire) working easily. It's my first Linux video workstation!
Do you realize just how much anger comes through in your post?
Very little else. Just anger.
I read your post. I stand by what I said. If you don't like it, don't use it. It's that simple. What you fail to realize is you have that choice. In this case, it might mean quitting a job. But that means you have a job because of Mandrake. Which means you have another choice. You can 1) Be thankful you have a job that gives you money to pay for rent and food and a car and any tv/vcr/home computer/dvd/etc you might buy, or 2) Complain because you don't like what you have to do in this job, or 3) Quit the job you hate so much and either find another or give up what this job, which involves Mandrake provides you.
It's that simple. I made the point that there are jobs out there because of easy to use software. Your first post and response shows that yours is one of them. Deal with it or get a new job.
Well, let's assume you actually know what you're talking about and your statements logically flow. Therefore, your next one should explain the "open source business model."
Not necissarily a logical conclusion. We're on/. and there are thousands of people her who do understand it. I'm not going to waste time/space by going over it. If you don't know it, you can always do some research.
As for whh they're filing -- that has nothing to do with an open source business model. For example, Chrysler filed for bankruptcy protection in the late '70s or early '80s. They came out of it. Your understanding (or lack thereof) of the open source business models has nothing to do with Mandrake filing for bankruptcy protection.
If you want to look at recent/. articles, you might realize that they worked with a group of venture capitalists for a while who almost drove the company in the ground. Mandrake, on it's own, has done well, and almost all (perhaps all) of their debt problems are related to the business model the VC's set up for them.
As for your post being modded to troll -- take responsibility for what you post. If you post with anger and your post is full of insults and ugly comments, expect to get modded down. You had nothing constructive to say -- just a lot of pissing and moaning.
Not really. I know why so many keyboards are trashed and why $5 keyboards are so popular.
I just think a lot of people making their keyboards so sticky need to take the advice William Shatner gave out in his (in)famous Saturday Night Live skit.
I have to admit I don't understand this post. I figure it is either a troll, or someone is just venting his/her anger.
Obviously this is a person who knows something about OSS, since he's complaining about what Mandrake did to SYSLINUX, but his last statement: how was MandrakeSoft expecting to make money? Anyone? Anyone? seems to be a clear declaration that he does not understand the open source business model.
People may not like Mandrake -- I've noticed the more someone pisses and moans about Mandrake, the more technically oriented they are. It's a generalization, but it's something I've noticed.
While most of use doing development work realize that without users who need easy-to-use UI's, we would not have jobs, it seems that there are always those who are willing to go on a rampage and complain about anybody or any company that tries to make Linux easier to use.
While you may not like what Mandrake has done in their distro, I dare say they've introduced more people to Linux and have created more happy Linux users than you have.
Personally, I think the more users that are on Linux, the more opportunities there are for those of use doing development work to sell our Linux products. I know some people feel the opposite, and want to keep everything pure and clean and pristine -- all technical, all perfect -- just a haven for techies. We can do that, but if we do, it means VERY few jobs for Linux developers.
Without the users that need easy-to-use systems like Mandrake, (whether they use Linux or Windows or Mac or anything else), there would be far fewer jobs for developers, since computers would remain in the hands of the technically elite.
If you don't like it, don't use it. If you hate it, then it seems only fair that you make sure you never take advantage of what Mandrake has brought to the Linux world -- which is many more users and more opportunities for developers to sell their products and make money.
It's not only sad to see Mandrake having to declare bankruptcy, but it is also sad to see some of the nasty comments that have already been posted.
At my LUG, whenever a newbie asks, "What distro should I install?" A bunch of techies respond, "Debian." To which I now point out (after having spent over a week trying to get Debian Woody to work with my ATI Radeon) that newbies have no idea how to handle the module config and that I've had a post on the local LUG board for almost a month now and NOT ONE Debian fan there has been able to tell me how to get Woody to support a common video card (I did get it working - that is not the point -- the point is that it wasn't supported.)
At this LUG, Mandrake has become a dirty word. I've noticed, overall, that programmers (and I used to be one -- used to program a LOT in Assembler on my Apple//e AND made money at it!) and techies tend to hate Mandrake. I cannot see why. They may not want it, but it seems to me the more technically oriented a person is, the more disdain they show on those who are not "as smart" as they are in that particular field. I think this shows a fundamental lack of understanding that comptuers are made for people, not people for computers.
If computers and all OS's stayed as difficult to set up as Debian or Slackware, there would not be many computers in offices or homes. As much as I hate M$, Windows is easy enough for even my 80 year old mother to use. That ease of use is a large factor responsible for the omni-presence of computers.
Mandrake has brought Linux to thousands, probably tens of thousands (or millions, for all I know) of users and computers. This is the distro that dared to explore the desktop years before Redhat introduced Bluecurve. This is the distro that is easy enough to use that it is pre-installed on computers at Wal-Mart. While those of use who think we know better act like snobs and talk with disdain over any distro that does not play by our rules, Mandrake has done a better job of any distro (except maybe Lindows) at spreading Linux aroudn the world and making it more popular among people other than programmers and techies.
If you want to talk ugly about Mandrake, go on. It just shows an elitist side that does not realize that without users, programming is just writing utilities and tools so we can write more utilities and tools. In short, without users who need easy to use distros, all we're left with is writing code and making systems for ourselvs. I don't know about you, but to me that is a bit much like masteurbation.
I hope Mandrake pulls out of this.
I also hope those who keep ragging on Mandrake take a step back and realize if it weren't for the easy to use desktops, computers would not be popular, would cost MUCH more, and far fewer of use would have jobs in computers (and these jobs are getting rare enough already).
normally, the women don't need to be "pumped up by a drug"
I won't argue that.
But it's not whether or not they need the drug.
It's whether or not Harry Mudd decides they should be taking it. And considering the type of male Harry Mudd is, I'm sure he wants his women as...., well, as "venus-y" as possible.
Isn't that the academic institution where all the teachers are androids who wear a necklace with the course number they teach on it (and otherwise almost tend to look like each other)?
And didn't I hear the headmaster android was named Stella?
Or was all that something in a dream I had last night?
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When vote to let Republicans run the government.
While I'm not saying Replicans are bad and Democrats are good, a large part of the political base for many Republicans is the religious right. While I prefer people explore religion and spirituality (and accept or reject it based on what they learn, not on what they are told to do/believe), it seems to me the churches and organizations in the religious right have always had a strong focus on telling people what to do and how to behave.
What do you expect when the government is controlled by politicians that depend on this religious right for a large number of their votes?
Or, perhaps, he may not be able to afford a Mac because he bought Avid Xpress.
First -- This person has asked a perfectly valid question. He wants to use Linux for video/digital film production. Comments that tell him/her to get illegal copies of software or to switch to a Mac (which just assumes he has the extra money to run out and buy one) are not only not helpful, but are basically a rude way of saying, "I don't have an answer for you, but I want to act like I do, so I'll just suggest something that doesn't really answer your question."
Second -- This is definately an area where Linux does not have the software. I've spent years in video. I d/l'ed Adobe Premiere (the 30 day demo version) and found it extremely easy to use for someone who is used to "real" video editing. I've tried Cinelerra several times, in test installs, and I've found it to be anything BUT easy to comprehend. This stuff about it being "advanced" or for "advanced users" doesn't wash with me. I have the experience and it's just a pain in the but to find your way around the program. The interface is anything BUT intuitive. (As someone pointed out earlier, in editing, this is a time when you need to focus on the work, not on getting your tools to work.)
Now, after those comments, here's what, to me, seems a useful suggestion and what I am currently planning. The company Main Concept is a German company. The last version of their editing program, Main Actor (V. 3.65) cost US $100 and worked on Linux and Windows. It's not Premiere, but for $100, I found it a good comparison. Currently the program is unavailable because they are preparing for the release of version 5.0. If you go to their site, you can download a Windows version of their V 5.0 beta 3 and test it out. This version is roughly comprable with Premiere 6.0. Some features aren't as good, but some are better (for instance, there was no smart gain for audio, but there are more sound adjustment abilities in MA than in Premiere). When I last corresponded with the people at Main Concept (when the beta 2 was out), they were still integrating some features into the betas and final version.
It will probably cost more than the US $100 price of their last version, but I wouldn't expect it to be any more than $150 or so. While it's not open source, and it's not free, it is a good solid program and will do what a video editor needs. They are also working on porting their effects program over to Linux as well.
I don't expect to see much more in the way of video editing in the open source field for a while. It involves too much GUI programming and the kind of intuitive feel that programmers seem to hate to deal with unless they have to.
Oh, I get that point.
//e in the 1980s for a hobby. I had my first program sale (an Assembler program) to a magazine before I graduated from college in the mid 1980's.
You are missing my point.
Before I was even a teenager, I was putting together working Heathkit radios (and other kits). I learned to program in high school, back in the 1970's, on a PDP 11. I used to program in Assembler (often hand coded) on an Apple
While I'm sure someone will come in as a troll and think they can be clever by twisting what I say, my point is I have a background of working with technical material -- a background of over 30 years of it.
I tried a test install of Debian on my video workstation. I needed to get the system up and running, get X working, be able to use my USB ramdrive, firewire IO for DV import, get the video IO on my ATI Radeon AIW working, get a CD-RW working, get my DVD player (also the 2nd CD-ROM) working to play NON-CSS DVDs.
After a week, I still could not get X to work with my Radeon card. Even on the Debian mailing list, nobody knew what to do. Not being used to Debian, I hesitated to change from stable to unstable or testing, but I finally did it. The newer version of X worked.
While that, in the long run, was a simple fix, it's just one of the symptoms of what I see as an overall Debian problem. It takes so long for programs to be integrated in the stable branch, hardware that has been out for over 18 months is still unsupported!
As to the CD-RW and DVD, it's true all it takes is links, but there's a problem there, and I'm going to sound quite snotty in saying this (and probably get modded to troll immediately for speaking the truth). I've worked with many programmers, techies, non-techies, and the whole range. The Debian community has a BIG problem of being closed minded. In any distro discussion, there's always got to be a few Debian people who pop up and say, "Hey! Debian is the best." Look at this discussion -- it's happened here.
The problem is, at least in my experience, Debian-ites are so busy being right, they are not interested in listening to other opinions. Whenever I say the install (and post install setup) is impossible unless you're a programmer, I always hear, "But you only have to install it once!" I have never, ever, seen any case, in person, or online, where someone said, Debian has a problem with this, and that's why I don't use it and a Debian person replied, "Hmmmm, you're right. Maybe we should look into it." It's always, "But that's not really a problem. Just do it the way that works for us."
My point: I am doing a LOT of programming and I don't consider myself a professional programmer. I'm just doing what I need to do to run my business. I'm working long hours. I don't have time to fart around with adding links to get my CD-RW working. I don't have time to do a lot of post-install work. I need to put in a CD, go through the prompts, and get the box up and running so I can use it for production. If Debian were the only Linux distro out, I'd use WinXP instead. I know that a lot of Debian-ites and programmers will respond to that with something like, "Let him use WinXP..." followed by comments about incompetents that can't or shouldn't be allowed to use Linux. That attitude is doing more to keep Linux tucked away in server rooms and in a tiny corner of the market than anything M$ could ever do.
I've included more than I planned, but the point is, for those of us who have other things to do and a limited time to spend putting our boxes together so we can actually use them to produce services or products, we can't mess around with trial and error setups or researching problems because 18 month old hardware is not well supported wit ha distro. We need to install and get it working. When we have the time, then we can explore and learn.
The computer, to many of us, is nothing more than a tool. A good craftsman, in any field, needs good and reliable tools, but they also have to be able to focus on their work, not on fixing or setting up their tools.
If/When Debian can fit my needs, and can do it without me having to go through and re-adjust everything AFTER an install, I'll be more than happy to use it (the idea of keeping a system up to date w/ a 1 line nightly cron job is VERY appealing), until then, in its present form, Debian is by programmers and for programmers. Unfortunately, this group of people seems incapable of understand there is more than one way to do anything and that their way may work for them, but may not work at all for others.
Actually, if you're not messing w/ CSS, it isn't a problem.
I'm using this in video production, but the Debian didn't even create a mount point for the darn thing -- or even treat it as a 2nd CD-ROM.
While it doesn't take much to make these links, in my case I'm setting up boxes to use for production. I'm not using my boxes to create utilities and make programs that help me write programs. I'm using my computers as tools to get work done. While I hear Debian is easy to maintain, the fact that it's such a pain to install has kept me (and a few other people I know who want to use Linux in their businesses) from bothering it. Quite frankly, if you're business is anything other than programming or sys admin work, Debian is such a pain to install it's not cost effective to waste time learning all it requires to get it up and running.
I don't mean to be rude, and I'm not trying to troll, but I've wrestled with Debian installs before. I am running a business and, due to time constraints, I finally just installed Mandrake, since I could get it up and running and didn't have to muck around with creating extra links for my DVD player, and other junk.
After my experience with Debian and the Debian installer, I would say expecting Debian admins/maintainers/programmers to produce a producet easy enough to install to be considered desktop is kind of like expecting RMS to make a discreet statement, Bill Gates to start promoting OSS, or Britany Spears to record a tolerable album.
It just ain't gonna happen. It's the nature of the scorpion story. (If you don't remember the story about the nature of a scorpion, go back and watch the Trek Voyager 2 parter that introduced 7 of 9.)
Speaking as someone who spent 10 years teaching in treatment settings, I'm willing to bet your friend can't recommend an easy-to-use distro because he needs people to try something hard like Slack and fail so he can reinforce his opinion that he is smart and better than they are.
I wouldn't disagree with you. You have based your opinions on your own experience and done what works for you.
I think Mandrake is basically just Redhat with a better UI. I don't see a problem with it. It makes it easier for me to get a box up and running so I can use it faster.
Almost everybody I've seen who started with Mandrake is still using Linux, many who use it exclusively.
Yes that's correct: TO EASY.
That's like saying, "This car is too esay to start. All people have to do is turn a key and it starts. They don't learn anything when they buy it or when they run it. That means they'll have problems with it later.
For some of us, the computer is just a tool! That's right -- a tool. I use computers to do work. I bought a car so I could drive places, not to learn about automechanics. If I wanted to learn automechanics, I'd buy something I needed to restore so I could learn. I have five comptuers in my studio/office so I can work. So I can produce the products and services my clients need. Yes, I want to learn, but I can't afford to spend time learning when I need to produce.
In my eyes, the fact that it is easy is good. It means I can download or buy the product and use it to produce goods and services quickly. It costs me less, in man hours (and that translates to money) to get a Mandrake box up and running than to get almost any other distro (except Redhat) running. And, aside from Mandrake costing less to install because it is easy, that means I can be producing faster, which means I start making money with that box sooner.
I do not mean to offend, but your comment about it being too easy is a symptom of what I'm saying is a problem with the attitude behind some distros: that one should be at a certain level of intelligence or knowledge in order to use a Linux based system and if one is not there, one should get there now.
Maybe so. But, a year from now Debian will still be around, and Mandrake most likely won't be.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. Right off, the best example I can think of is Chrysler. They went under bankruptcy protection, but came back strong and even paid off loans and debts early.
If you don't like something about Debian, join up and change it.
Good point, but, to me, the computer is a tool. I use it in business. I'm not a programmer and, frankly, I don't have the time to sit around debating or going against the grain to try to improve.
If you spend some time and learn how Debian/GNU programs operate, you can work wonders.
Like I just said, to me the computer is a tool. Like a hammer. I'm in business, which means I produce products. I have to focus my time and efforts on producing products that make money, not on playing around with Debian and learning what it does.
Different people have different needs. I'm glad we have a lot of distros. I don't like seeing ANY distro go under.
My only complaint, in my original post, is that so many Debian fans keep talking about how wonderful it is, but seem unable to understand the basic fact that if you're interested in productivity, you don't have time to sit around learning a new system. You have to go with what works. Again, different people have different needs.
Oh, and whether or not one distro is around in a year and another is not does not prove anything. Betamax was better than VHS. When is the last time you saw a home betamax for sale in a store?
You may be a Linux newbie, but if you're setting up a PDC (or even know what it means), you're very familiar with computers, hardware, and networking. (I'm basing that not just on you setting up a PDC, but on the rest of what you're doing as well).
You obviously know your way around computers. Perhaps I should have specified that many people I've heard asking about a distro for newbies are not that technically oriented anyway. They just want an alternative to the monopoly or are curious.
Helpful people.
No working answers.
Don't let the others at your LUG get to you. Be happy that there's a distro for you too.
:-) per machine... ;-)
That's my feeling. My complaint is about the techies who are so out of touch with anyone who is not at their level that they feel their solution is the best and others should adapt to their answer, rather than there being many answers that should adapt to the people involved.
Oh, one last note. For those who have been told that the Debian installer will kill you, read this: you only ever have to install Debian once.
Thank you for your kind words.
I never knew this was a problem. I've never seen Mandrake users raggong on Redhat like that. If it is going on, I'd consider it the same as the attitudes I mention in the paragraph you quote. We all have our favorite distro. That's no reason or excuse to be ugly about others.
I could not agree with your post any more than I do. This is an intellectual elitist community and the members are beginning to get upset that other people are coming to play in their playground.
One of the biggest obstacles to widespread Linux adoption is the Linux community.
That is just so true.
Actually, I copied the config file from Knoppix at one point, since Knoppix is Debian based and worked perfectly. I spent a LOT of time working with the X config files.
That was just one of MANY things I tried. Not one of the local Debian fans or anybody else I contacted had a good suggestion that actually worked.
My experience is that many Debian people have forgotten the install because updates are so easy. That's the reason I wanted to change over. If/When I can get Debian working on that machine, I'll probably switch. In the meantime, it's Mandrake, which I got up and running quickly and even got all the extras (like firewire) working easily. It's my first Linux video workstation!
Actually, that's the way I originally learned to spell it back in prep school. I just never changed it.
Do you realize just how much anger comes through in your post?
/. and there are thousands of people her who do understand it. I'm not going to waste time/space by going over it. If you don't know it, you can always do some research.
/. articles, you might realize that they worked with a group of venture capitalists for a while who almost drove the company in the ground. Mandrake, on it's own, has done well, and almost all (perhaps all) of their debt problems are related to the business model the VC's set up for them.
Very little else. Just anger.
I read your post. I stand by what I said. If you don't like it, don't use it. It's that simple. What you fail to realize is you have that choice. In this case, it might mean quitting a job. But that means you have a job because of Mandrake. Which means you have another choice. You can 1) Be thankful you have a job that gives you money to pay for rent and food and a car and any tv/vcr/home computer/dvd/etc you might buy, or 2) Complain because you don't like what you have to do in this job, or 3) Quit the job you hate so much and either find another or give up what this job, which involves Mandrake provides you.
It's that simple. I made the point that there are jobs out there because of easy to use software. Your first post and response shows that yours is one of them. Deal with it or get a new job.
Well, let's assume you actually know what you're talking about and your statements logically flow. Therefore, your next one should explain the "open source business model."
Not necissarily a logical conclusion. We're on
As for whh they're filing -- that has nothing to do with an open source business model. For example, Chrysler filed for bankruptcy protection in the late '70s or early '80s. They came out of it. Your understanding (or lack thereof) of the open source business models has nothing to do with Mandrake filing for bankruptcy protection.
If you want to look at recent
As for your post being modded to troll -- take responsibility for what you post. If you post with anger and your post is full of insults and ugly comments, expect to get modded down. You had nothing constructive to say -- just a lot of pissing and moaning.
Not really. I know why so many keyboards are trashed and why $5 keyboards are so popular.
I just think a lot of people making their keyboards so sticky need to take the advice William Shatner gave out in his (in)famous Saturday Night Live skit.
I have to admit I don't understand this post. I figure it is either a troll, or someone is just venting his/her anger.
Obviously this is a person who knows something about OSS, since he's complaining about what Mandrake did to SYSLINUX, but his last statement: how was MandrakeSoft expecting to make money? Anyone? Anyone? seems to be a clear declaration that he does not understand the open source business model.
People may not like Mandrake -- I've noticed the more someone pisses and moans about Mandrake, the more technically oriented they are. It's a generalization, but it's something I've noticed.
While most of use doing development work realize that without users who need easy-to-use UI's, we would not have jobs, it seems that there are always those who are willing to go on a rampage and complain about anybody or any company that tries to make Linux easier to use.
While you may not like what Mandrake has done in their distro, I dare say they've introduced more people to Linux and have created more happy Linux users than you have.
Personally, I think the more users that are on Linux, the more opportunities there are for those of use doing development work to sell our Linux products. I know some people feel the opposite, and want to keep everything pure and clean and pristine -- all technical, all perfect -- just a haven for techies. We can do that, but if we do, it means VERY few jobs for Linux developers.
Without the users that need easy-to-use systems like Mandrake, (whether they use Linux or Windows or Mac or anything else), there would be far fewer jobs for developers, since computers would remain in the hands of the technically elite.
If you don't like it, don't use it. If you hate it, then it seems only fair that you make sure you never take advantage of what Mandrake has brought to the Linux world -- which is many more users and more opportunities for developers to sell their products and make money.
It's not only sad to see Mandrake having to declare bankruptcy, but it is also sad to see some of the nasty comments that have already been posted.
//e AND made money at it!) and techies tend to hate Mandrake. I cannot see why. They may not want it, but it seems to me the more technically oriented a person is, the more disdain they show on those who are not "as smart" as they are in that particular field. I think this shows a fundamental lack of understanding that comptuers are made for people, not people for computers.
At my LUG, whenever a newbie asks, "What distro should I install?" A bunch of techies respond, "Debian." To which I now point out (after having spent over a week trying to get Debian Woody to work with my ATI Radeon) that newbies have no idea how to handle the module config and that I've had a post on the local LUG board for almost a month now and NOT ONE Debian fan there has been able to tell me how to get Woody to support a common video card (I did get it working - that is not the point -- the point is that it wasn't supported.)
At this LUG, Mandrake has become a dirty word. I've noticed, overall, that programmers (and I used to be one -- used to program a LOT in Assembler on my Apple
If computers and all OS's stayed as difficult to set up as Debian or Slackware, there would not be many computers in offices or homes. As much as I hate M$, Windows is easy enough for even my 80 year old mother to use. That ease of use is a large factor responsible for the omni-presence of computers.
Mandrake has brought Linux to thousands, probably tens of thousands (or millions, for all I know) of users and computers. This is the distro that dared to explore the desktop years before Redhat introduced Bluecurve. This is the distro that is easy enough to use that it is pre-installed on computers at Wal-Mart. While those of use who think we know better act like snobs and talk with disdain over any distro that does not play by our rules, Mandrake has done a better job of any distro (except maybe Lindows) at spreading Linux aroudn the world and making it more popular among people other than programmers and techies.
If you want to talk ugly about Mandrake, go on. It just shows an elitist side that does not realize that without users, programming is just writing utilities and tools so we can write more utilities and tools. In short, without users who need easy to use distros, all we're left with is writing code and making systems for ourselvs. I don't know about you, but to me that is a bit much like masteurbation.
I hope Mandrake pulls out of this.
I also hope those who keep ragging on Mandrake take a step back and realize if it weren't for the easy to use desktops, computers would not be popular, would cost MUCH more, and far fewer of use would have jobs in computers (and these jobs are getting rare enough already).
normally, the women don't need to be "pumped up by a drug"
I won't argue that.
But it's not whether or not they need the drug.
It's whether or not Harry Mudd decides they should be taking it. And considering the type of male Harry Mudd is, I'm sure he wants his women as...., well, as "venus-y" as possible.
So it wasn't a dream? Thank heaven for that!
Aren't all the female students there required to be on some kind of medication? Venus pills or something?
Isn't that the academic institution where all the teachers are androids who wear a necklace with the course number they teach on it (and otherwise almost tend to look like each other)?
And didn't I hear the headmaster android was named Stella?
Or was all that something in a dream I had last night?