> Before you respond, read up on what Redhat is ACTUALLY doing to KDE rather than what you have heard from some gossip source.
Well, bero himself states that it was crippleware. I generally agree with what RedHat is doing, but I think they should have just kept a common theme between the two environments. Everyone would have been happy then.
> They have ignorantly bitten on to a load of FUD launched by the core KDE development crew.
I don't think it's quite the core development crew that's doing this. Anyways, RedHat and KDE have a bad history. Many people dislike each other. A RedHat employee referred to KDE as "crapland", and some KDE users refer to RedHat as Microhat.
Probably because I accidently typed G4 when I was thinking G5. Not sure how this could be interpreted as a troll, however.
Anyways, there have been rumors that Apple will switch to x86 for the last, well, for a long, long, time. It has never happened, and with new chips coming from Moto/IBM, I don't think it will happen in the future.
> Why can't nvidia at least do this for its older cards.
Because NVIDIA has a unified driver architecture. ATI is trying to do this too now. Actually, they started doing it with the 8500, but they rewrote the drivers for the R200, and broke 8500 compatability, which means unified drivers for anything past the R200.
> Although IE does do some cross platform stuff, but from what I hear, it was the way Netscape used to do it. They have separate codebases. There's an IE for Unix out there somewhere, and of course there's MacOS.
Yeah, IE for MacOS is a completely different application from IE for Windows. It even has a different (arguably more standards compliant) renderer. IE for Unix, although now discontinued, from what I heard, basically was a port of the Windows version, with a large portion of Windows itself ported:)
From my WinXP/Athlon 2200+/512mb ram machine, I get these:
useragent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 MultiZilla/v1.1.22 Mozilla 1.1 with no page open: 18,555K Mozilla 1.1 open to slashdot.org: 22,388K
useragent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1;.NET CLR 1.0.3705) IE 6 open to nothing: 11,516K IE 6 open to slashdot.org: 18,092K
useragent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.1) Gecko/20020919 Phoenix 0.1 with no page open: 17,160K Phoenix 0.1 with no page open: 19,188K
useragent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 K-Meleon 0.6.5 (latest beta build) with no page open: 10,928K K-Meleon 0.6.5 open to slashdot.org: 13,588K
Actually, new builds come out every few weeks. An official 0.7 (or 1.0) release is due out in a month or so. You can get the latest build from the following URL:
Keep in mind that the actual file represented by this URL may change everytime a new build comes out. I guess you have to check kmeleon-dev if you are interested in knowing when new builds come out:)
K-Meleon is still quite a bit lighter/quicker/smaller than Phoenix. The download file itself of Phoenix is almost as large as the full installation of K-Meleon.
> My machine is an 800MHz PIII with 256M of RAM. I use more than just Mozilla on the machine. I should not have to upgrade for Mozilla when the machine is overpowered for everything else.
Wow, I run Mozilla on my 800MHz Athlon with 128Mb of RAM pretty comfortably in Linux. It first became really usable when Mozilla 0.90 came out.
Of course, I'll have to agree that the requirements for IE are much less than Mozilla. But for what it's worth, IE 6 is slower than IE 5 on everything except for modern machines. Of course, it still kicks Mozilla's ass in speed and memory usage. If IE had to be cross platform, it'd be slower/use more memory too.
> relocate DLLs in memory as they load, initialize all of it's components, run through its start-up code
This is done for IE when explorer runs in Win98+. Coincidently, the last time I removed IE (in Win98.. not sure if it's even possible anymore), win98 started quite a bit faster.
> This all started with Apple's QT 4 player, which completely broke the highly regarded Apple Human Interface Guidelines and was put onto the Interface Hall of Shame just for that. Then Winamp came out, creating one of the first in-app skinnable applications, which is cool, but led everyone to release skinnable apps, such as Windows Media Player, and a lot of similar ones on the *NIX side.
Actually, WinAmp 1.2 (the first to have skinning) came out (April 8, 1998) a while before QuickTime 4 did (preview release: May 1999.) kjofol had app-level skinning in a media player even before this, before the author was hired by Nullsoft.
There was a pretty vibrant Windows skinning community in 1998, mostly because of things like LiteStep.
> I'd rather see more effort here with Moz and other programs to provide this, though with much effort, than to keep on reinventing customization wheels that are inconsistant with the OS's customization.
Actually, EFNet ceased to be the largest network in mid-2000. IRCnet was the first network to overtake it, but both Undernet, DALnet also eventually overtook EFnet later in 2000. IRCnet has been pretty much the largest network since then, except for this summer when DALnet jumped ahead of it. Now, DALnet has had lots of DOS problems, so IRCnet is a bit ahead again.
Recently, Quakenet has grown to the point where it is alternating between being second between itself and DALnet.
The IRC History charts at the website you mentioned are very good. I would recommend looking at these:
Try visiting a page like this for a brief history of CS.
> I'm still enjoying 1.5 myself, and it's not running slow at all.
I was talking about slow gameplay (compared to before cs 1.0), not slow fps;)
> CS was bought by valve? Well, from what I understand cs was produced using valve's engine and SDK, so didn't they 'own' it already?
The guy who made CS was gooseman (his real name is Minh Le)... he helped other mods before starting CS, like the famous aq2 for quake2. CS started out as a project completely independant from Valve. It was just a halflife mod. It's status is similiar to how most q3 and UT mods are. id and epic don't support most mods to their games, and their distributors don't put these mods in stores.
However, counterstrike is different. Gooseman was hired by Valve. It was packaged and put in shelves. The post-Valve cs plays quite differently from the Gooseman-only beta CS versions.
> As for killing off the aging counterstrike, wouldn't counterstrike condition zero be the real killer? Updated engine, better graphics, etc... (I haven't followed all the details...)
Who knows.. There have been many CS clones and CS-like mods for q3 (urbanterror, truecombat), UT (tac-ops), but none of them have had the success of CS. Many of these clones actually have arguably better graphics and gameplay than CS (mainly because they aren't based on the quake1-derived engine that halflife is.)
But all games have a limit until they go stale. I don't think CS:CZ will be as a hit as CS was, but who knows..
> Does this mean that Linux is now considered to be a more lucrative market than Mac, or is this just a show of support for Linux?
No, the Linux game is no way more lucrative than Mac. It's just that network games such as ut2k3 most always need at least a Linux server version because roughly all recent FPS game servers (q3/UT/rtcw/jk2/sof2,etc..), run on Linux. A significant portion of halflife/CS servers also run on Linux. So, they basically needed a Linux server at launch of the Windows version of the game to have ut2k3 become any popular online. Unlike Valve with halflife, they didn't want to have a platform with a server and not a client, so they made both for Linux.
> Now that UT2 is more openGLish
Actually, it's more direct3dish, but it has good openGL support.
> Perhaps the portion of linux users that play UT is greater than that of mac?
I doubt it, but there are many more UT servers running on Linux than MacOS.
Well, with Quake3, id/activision wanted to make money of the linux version.
With Quake2, on the other hand, the linux port was a unsupported version.
Ut2k3 seems to be handled similiar to how id handled the linux port of Quake2. Infogames won't give any support to the Linux version, and it won't even say on the box that it includes the Linux version (evidently it was too late to put it on the box.)
After all, they made the Linux version for two main reasons. First of all, a linux server version is _extremely_ important. Slightly more than half of all Quake3 and UT servers run on Linux. Many halflife/cs servers do too. Unlike Valve, Epic didn't want to leave a platform with a server without a client. The second reason was that they'd done an OpenGL port anyways for the Mac version, and several programmers used Linux for development, so they wanted to make a port to the platform.
Mark Rein (vice-President of Epic) said something to this effect recently in the Infogames AG forum.
Return To Castle Wolfenstein is based on the Quake3 engine.
ut2k3 is basically a rewrite of the unreal engine, which means new technology.
Anyways, stop complaining. It's great they ported it to Linux in the first place. I can't help but understand why most gaming companies prefer using Direct3d over OpenGL these days; it's the difference in quality/capabilities of various drivers.
I think many people are hoping that this game kills the aging counterstrike (and the less-old Quake3 and UT).
But yeah, there will likely be counterstrike-like mods for ut2k3. It would not be counterstrike itself, since it's owned by valve now. Many old-time counterstrike players, hated cs after it was bought by valve. They just kept on making the game slower and slower. cs beta 5.2 was the best cs version:)
I think the best thing about ut2k3 is the better physics than UT. Quaker's, like myself, have always felt restricted by UT's lack of strafe jumping. ut2k3 doesn't include strafe jumping, but it's dodge jumping is a bit more pronounced than the dodge jumping in UT. Also, it has a Quake2-like double jumping system. Also, wall jumps and lift jumps (which were found in UT), also seem more pronounced, especially with a faster than default game speed (110%), and a higher fov than normal (around 100 is best, imho).
It's not that companies like AMD and Intel particularly like this effort. As hardware/chip/part manufacturers, it's just more work for them. They support the inititive because they need to stay on Microsoft's good side in the up coming x86-64/itanium battle.
Slashdot Mirror
> Before you respond, read up on what Redhat is ACTUALLY doing to KDE rather than what you have heard from some gossip source.
Well, bero himself states that it was crippleware. I generally agree with what RedHat is doing, but I think they should have just kept a common theme between the two environments. Everyone would have been happy then.
> They have ignorantly bitten on to a load of FUD launched by the core KDE development crew.
I don't think it's quite the core development crew that's doing this. Anyways, RedHat and KDE have a bad history. Many people dislike each other. A RedHat employee referred to KDE as "crapland", and some KDE users refer to RedHat as Microhat.
Probably because I accidently typed G4 when I was thinking G5. Not sure how this could be interpreted as a troll, however.
Anyways, there have been rumors that Apple will switch to x86 for the last, well, for a long, long, time. It has never happened, and with new chips coming from Moto/IBM, I don't think it will happen in the future.
when the G4 comes out... Apple has too much of a commitment to Motorola (since 1982?) and IBM (since 1992?)
Gentoo has a good page filled with information about NvAGP vs. AGPGart here.
The page isn't Gentoo specific (I use debian personally)
> Why can't nvidia at least do this for its older cards.
Because NVIDIA has a unified driver architecture. ATI is trying to do this too now. Actually, they started doing it with the 8500, but they rewrote the drivers for the R200, and broke 8500 compatability, which means unified drivers for anything past the R200.
> (and buggy) Linux drivers?
You might want to try switching from nvagp to agpgart, or vice versa, depending on your mobo.
I went from agpgart->nvagp a few months ago, and suddenly most of my stability problems with the drivers were gone.
> Although IE does do some cross platform stuff, but from what I hear, it was the way Netscape used to do it. They have separate codebases. There's an IE for Unix out there somewhere, and of course there's MacOS.
:)
Yeah, IE for MacOS is a completely different application from IE for Windows. It even has a different (arguably more standards compliant) renderer. IE for Unix, although now discontinued, from what I heard, basically was a port of the Windows version, with a large portion of Windows itself ported
> It is not done for IE when Explorer runs if you've checked the box for running new windows as separate processes
Is the available for > Win98? I haven't seen it since then.
> processes don't fork under Windows, they start fresh.
Yes, but the dll's would have already loaded?
From my WinXP/Athlon 2200+/512mb ram machine, I get these:
.NET CLR 1.0.3705)
useragent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 MultiZilla/v1.1.22
Mozilla 1.1 with no page open: 18,555K
Mozilla 1.1 open to slashdot.org: 22,388K
useragent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1;
IE 6 open to nothing: 11,516K
IE 6 open to slashdot.org: 18,092K
useragent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.1) Gecko/20020919
Phoenix 0.1 with no page open: 17,160K
Phoenix 0.1 with no page open: 19,188K
useragent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826
K-Meleon 0.6.5 (latest beta build) with no page open: 10,928K
K-Meleon 0.6.5 open to slashdot.org: 13,588K
> AFAIK Kmeleon hasn't been updated in a year.
e xe
:)
Actually, new builds come out every few weeks. An official 0.7 (or 1.0) release is due out in a month or so. You can get the latest build from the following URL:
http://kmeleon.sf.net/files/beta/kmeleon065-beta.
Keep in mind that the actual file represented by this URL may change everytime a new build comes out. I guess you have to check kmeleon-dev if you are interested in knowing when new builds come out
K-Meleon is still quite a bit lighter/quicker/smaller than Phoenix. The download file itself of Phoenix is almost as large as the full installation of K-Meleon.
I don't think most Windoze users have heard about KDE. And the official name of K-Meleon is K-Meleon, not kmeleon.
> My machine is an 800MHz PIII with 256M of RAM. I use more than just Mozilla on the machine. I should not have to upgrade for Mozilla when the machine is overpowered for everything else.
Wow, I run Mozilla on my 800MHz Athlon with 128Mb of RAM pretty comfortably in Linux. It first became really usable when Mozilla 0.90 came out.
Of course, I'll have to agree that the requirements for IE are much less than Mozilla. But for what it's worth, IE 6 is slower than IE 5 on everything except for modern machines. Of course, it still kicks Mozilla's ass in speed and memory usage. If IE had to be cross platform, it'd be slower/use more memory too.
> relocate DLLs in memory as they load, initialize all of it's components, run through its start-up code
This is done for IE when explorer runs in Win98+.
Coincidently, the last time I removed IE (in Win98.. not sure if it's even possible anymore), win98 started quite a bit faster.
> This all started with Apple's QT 4 player, which completely broke the highly regarded Apple Human Interface Guidelines and was put onto the Interface Hall of Shame just for that. Then Winamp came out, creating one of the first in-app skinnable applications, which is cool, but led everyone to release skinnable apps, such as Windows Media Player, and a lot of similar ones on the *NIX side.
Actually, WinAmp 1.2 (the first to have skinning) came out (April 8, 1998) a while before QuickTime 4 did (preview release: May 1999.) kjofol had app-level skinning in a media player even before this, before the author was hired by Nullsoft.
There was a pretty vibrant Windows skinning community in 1998, mostly because of things like LiteStep.
> I'd rather see more effort here with Moz and other programs to provide this, though with much effort, than to keep on reinventing customization wheels that are inconsistant with the OS's customization.
But many other people like app-level skinning.
Um, I read that page again and again, but it doesn't explain how to change Mozilla keyboard shortcuts. It just shows what the default ones are.
just switch to something better than entertheanime.. like gamesnet, qnet, or pgp
Actually, EFNet ceased to be the largest network in mid-2000. IRCnet was the first network to overtake it, but both Undernet, DALnet also eventually overtook EFnet later in 2000. IRCnet has been pretty much the largest network since then, except for this summer when DALnet jumped ahead of it. Now, DALnet has had lots of DOS problems, so IRCnet is a bit ahead again.
Recently, Quakenet has grown to the point where it is alternating between being second between itself and DALnet.
The IRC History charts at the website you mentioned are very good. I would recommend looking at these:
Top Ten IRC networks in 1999
Top Ten IRC networks in 2000
Top Ten IRC networks in 2001
Top Ten IRC networks so far in 2002
> Beta 5.2? Hmm... never heard of that version...
;)
Try visiting a page like this for a brief history of CS.
> I'm still enjoying 1.5 myself, and it's not running slow at all.
I was talking about slow gameplay (compared to before cs 1.0), not slow fps
> CS was bought by valve? Well, from what I understand cs was produced using valve's engine and SDK, so didn't they 'own' it already?
The guy who made CS was gooseman (his real name is Minh Le)... he helped other mods before starting CS, like the famous aq2 for quake2. CS started out as a project completely independant from Valve. It was just a halflife mod. It's status is similiar to how most q3 and UT mods are. id and epic don't support most mods to their games, and their distributors don't put these mods in stores.
However, counterstrike is different. Gooseman was hired by Valve. It was packaged and put in shelves. The post-Valve cs plays quite differently from the Gooseman-only beta CS versions.
> As for killing off the aging counterstrike, wouldn't counterstrike condition zero be the real killer? Updated engine, better graphics, etc... (I haven't followed all the details...)
Who knows.. There have been many CS clones and CS-like mods for q3 (urbanterror, truecombat), UT (tac-ops), but none of them have had the success of CS. Many of these clones actually have arguably better graphics and gameplay than CS (mainly because they aren't based on the quake1-derived engine that halflife is.)
But all games have a limit until they go stale. I don't think CS:CZ will be as a hit as CS was, but who knows..
> Does this mean that Linux is now considered to be a more lucrative market than Mac, or is this just a show of support for Linux?
No, the Linux game is no way more lucrative than Mac. It's just that network games such as ut2k3 most always need at least a Linux server version because roughly all recent FPS game servers (q3/UT/rtcw/jk2/sof2,etc..), run on Linux. A significant portion of halflife/CS servers also run on Linux. So, they basically needed a Linux server at launch of the Windows version of the game to have ut2k3 become any popular online. Unlike Valve with halflife, they didn't want to have a platform with a server and not a client, so they made both for Linux.
> Now that UT2 is more openGLish
Actually, it's more direct3dish, but it has good openGL support.
> Perhaps the portion of linux users that play UT is greater than that of mac?
I doubt it, but there are many more UT servers running on Linux than MacOS.
Well, with Quake3, id/activision wanted to make money of the linux version.
With Quake2, on the other hand, the linux port was a unsupported version.
Ut2k3 seems to be handled similiar to how id handled the linux port of Quake2. Infogames won't give any support to the Linux version, and it won't even say on the box that it includes the Linux version (evidently it was too late to put it on the box.)
After all, they made the Linux version for two main reasons. First of all, a linux server version is _extremely_ important. Slightly more than half of all Quake3 and UT servers run on Linux. Many halflife/cs servers do too. Unlike Valve, Epic didn't want to leave a platform with a server without a client. The second reason was that they'd done an OpenGL port anyways for the Mac version, and several programmers used Linux for development, so they wanted to make a port to the platform.
Mark Rein (vice-President of Epic) said something to this effect recently in the Infogames AG forum.
Return To Castle Wolfenstein is based on the Quake3 engine.
ut2k3 is basically a rewrite of the unreal engine, which means new technology.
Anyways, stop complaining. It's great they ported it to Linux in the first place. I can't help but understand why most gaming companies prefer using Direct3d over OpenGL these days; it's the difference in quality/capabilities of various drivers.
I think many people are hoping that this game kills the aging counterstrike (and the less-old Quake3 and UT).
:)
But yeah, there will likely be counterstrike-like mods for ut2k3. It would not be counterstrike itself, since it's owned by valve now. Many old-time counterstrike players, hated cs after it was bought by valve. They just kept on making the game slower and slower. cs beta 5.2 was the best cs version
I think the best thing about ut2k3 is the better physics than UT. Quaker's, like myself, have always felt restricted by UT's lack of strafe jumping. ut2k3 doesn't include strafe jumping, but it's dodge jumping is a bit more pronounced than the dodge jumping in UT. Also, it has a Quake2-like double jumping system. Also, wall jumps and lift jumps (which were found in UT), also seem more pronounced, especially with a faster than default game speed (110%), and a higher fov than normal (around 100 is best, imho).
It's not that companies like AMD and Intel particularly like this effort. As hardware/chip/part manufacturers, it's just more work for them. They support the inititive because they need to stay on Microsoft's good side in the up coming x86-64/itanium battle.
I was talking about the fact that KDE comes in various FREE licenses that are not always the GPL, like BSD, X11, Artistic, etc..