in being facetious you haven't actually thought about what you're saying. In some ways we DO have standardised home decor - light switches are usually just inside the door of a room, doors open into aroom, closets open outwards. There are, of course, a great many building regulatios in effect all over the world that actually aim to reduce accidents by making the interior design of houses moderately standardised. Just think before you bang away at your keyboard and you'll see the purpose of this - no-one's trying to tell you how to live - but have you never noticed just how many interior walls are painted Magnolia?
OK, take a complete newbie and stick 'em infront of Win9x - allow them to select their CDROM, and then let them eject it by pressing the load button on the drive - BLUESCREEN. Sit that same newbie in front of a Mac - they won't be able to find the load key where it was on the PC, so next they'll probably see the FUCKING EJECT KEY ON THE FUCKING KEYBOARD. And save a file to a different disk? What kind of disk would that be on a Mac? CD-R? - full finder integration. DVD-R? FULL FINDER INTEGRATION? ZIP? If you hit a zip or Jaz or floppy drives load button you get a message on your screen as to how to eject the disc -IS THAT SO HARD? No, I don't think the drag-to-trash is the most intelligent design choice ever, but Apple provide at least five other ways of doing it - notably the keyboard eject key - so your whinge is just so fucking tired. I WAS talking "classic" MacOS', but moving to OSX we find that moving a disc in the finder causes the trash to be replaced by an eject symbol - again, not too fucking tricky is it? Christ, you'll start on the mouse button next.
"then it would be better if all other OSes (Linux, MacOS, etc) opted to mimic the Windows UI." well, this pretty much EXACTLY the approach being taken by OSX and KDE - and for exactly the reason you surmise. The fact that it makes both of them significantly worse than they could be is not relevent where the market is 90-95% Windows. Just ONE more reason why MS' mnopoly is bad news for all of us - even it's competitors get worse in their attempts to lure away long time Windows victims. It's a death spiral.
1. the idea of the menu being at the top of the screen is that it provides a fixed target to aim at - this has been proved time and time again to be faster 2. have you never seen the application switcher? 3. you're right! imagine selecting "eject" from the special menu to eject a disk, or "eject" from the contextual menu, or "put away" or pressing CMD-E - i can see how someone might be confused by that. I prefer the Win9x method where you remove the disk from the drive and the machine bluescreens until you replace it - much more sensible. As OSX demonstrates admirably, Apple HAVE now unfortunately dissolved their human interface lab.
as Raskin himself points out, theming and eye candy has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with usability. And "most Mac users are fine with it"?? what the hell does THAT mean? - MOST Mac users most certainly are NOT using OSX - I can only use it on my home machine it's completely useless at work as it doesn't properly support the applications and hardware that we use with our production machines. Of the 53 Macs in my company exactly NONE of them are running OSX as of now - and none of our PCs are running XP either. We run a combination of Mac OS9, Win2K and NT4 - and I'd be surprised if any of those systems go to OSX or XP inside a year. The only possible reason why more people would dislike Platinum than Aqua would be that so many more people have been exposed to Platinum.
you're missing the point - the UI that you are so keen to modify was NOT scientifically designed, merely to someone else's preference (ie Jobs'). I too use OSX, but only because I HAVE to (OS9 WILL die), and I find it a usability disaster almost on par with Win2K - the worrying thing is that the only reason I use a Mac is because it's quicker, easier and more logical. OSX has changed that equation - Apple seem to think the reason people use Macs is because of the stylish hardware, I hope for their sake that they're right.
err... a 747 has controls suited to a machine that moves in 3 dimensions, whereas the backhoe and car both move in 2. hence the similarities and differences. it is no mere coincidence that so many "creatives" prefer the Mac - the classic Mac Ui is demonstrably the quickest and simplest to use, therefore the least distracting from the REASON why you're sitting in front of the computer in the first place.
Re:And If I Don't Agree With Your Design Choices?
on
Jef Raskin Talks Skins
·
· Score: 1
...because YOU are a computer manufacturer with over 25 years experience and therefore know better? Are you IBM?
clearly you have not experienced BMW's i-Drive. In 5 years we'll ALL be fighting with a feeble Microsoft rip-off of THAT one... yes, YOU'RE car will be running an MS misoperating system.
no, UI science is not misguided when you realise it IS a science and NOT a fucking opinion. You've heard of scientific method, I presume? UI science is what WASN'T applied to just about every non "Classic" MacOS, and that's why the MacOS (no, not X) is now - and probably will remain - the high water mark for general-purpose computer usability. The sad part is that Linux and Windows victims actually seem to find the infuriating Aqua desktop easier to learn than Platinum - personally I think that's down to having to unlearn less idiotic Windows/KDE paradigm, but still...
"...and finished development" THAT'S WHY JOBS IS A BILLIONAIRE - even if he IS an arsehole. Still, Raskin could really help out Aqua right now - APPLE I WANT MY AUTO-SIZING WINDOWS BACK PLEASE!
it really needs to be able to handle a fat Horsefly and a teeny Mosquito without falling apart - ideally it should be accesible but not too exposed to the wind, and anchored in at least 2 places to something solid.
I hate to see this kind of butchery too, but in this case he pulled the cases out of a DUMPSTER - Frankenstein's SGI has got to be better than landfill... saw someone turn a Vax rack into a fridge once - looked damn sharp in the cold machine room!
why would a billionaie be a crackhead - the man can afford the finest wines known to humanity without a second thought. Shit, he's got a gulfstream V hasn't he? 500knots at 50000ft? I wish I was rich:-[
I'm a long time Mac user and I laugh at PC case mods but I think this guys' work is really good. The only things that would have improved it (in my view) would have been to use a slot-load drive and a cleaner door arrangement. I LOVE his fan placement and lighting ideas. Kudos!
the problem here is that you can identify and replicate the EXACT specifications of your IBM or Compaq box for around half the cost with a self-build. putting it another way, you could upgrade a self-build TWICE as often. It's all IBM and Compaq's fault for offering NO ADDED VALUE in their systems - they could be and should be offering more than you could build yourself - that they aren't is a testament to the failure of their management teams - sooner or later they will have to leave the market - IBM lost over a BILLION dollars on desktop PCs last year...
exactly - there's no such things as "complete" or "exact" when it comes to real world simulation. Your original point was (to paraphrase) "when we can simulate reality faster than real time, we'll be fast enough" which raises the obvious question - how MUCH faster? look at a system like ASCI White - as far as we know it IS being used for the kind of simulations that you're talking about, and it's obvious that the skill of the programmers to correctly identify and implement the proper variables to be modelled is just as important as the hardware used to run their programs. garbage in...
have you been sniffing glue? simulate a scene down to the molecular level? this isn't HHGTG you know. get a grip, I think you've been playing The Sims too much.
Slashdot Mirror
in being facetious you haven't actually thought about what you're saying. In some ways we DO have standardised home decor - light switches are usually just inside the door of a room, doors open into aroom, closets open outwards. There are, of course, a great many building regulatios in effect all over the world that actually aim to reduce accidents by making the interior design of houses moderately standardised. Just think before you bang away at your keyboard and you'll see the purpose of this - no-one's trying to tell you how to live - but have you never noticed just how many interior walls are painted Magnolia?
in that case, why would you have paid good money for it in the first place? no-one held a gun to your head did they?
OK, take a complete newbie and stick 'em infront of Win9x - allow them to select their CDROM, and then let them eject it by pressing the load button on the drive - BLUESCREEN. Sit that same newbie in front of a Mac - they won't be able to find the load key where it was on the PC, so next they'll probably see the FUCKING EJECT KEY ON THE FUCKING KEYBOARD. And save a file to a different disk? What kind of disk would that be on a Mac? CD-R? - full finder integration. DVD-R? FULL FINDER INTEGRATION? ZIP? If you hit a zip or Jaz or floppy drives load button you get a message on your screen as to how to eject the disc -IS THAT SO HARD? No, I don't think the drag-to-trash is the most intelligent design choice ever, but Apple provide at least five other ways of doing it - notably the keyboard eject key - so your whinge is just so fucking tired. I WAS talking "classic" MacOS', but moving to OSX we find that moving a disc in the finder causes the trash to be replaced by an eject symbol - again, not too fucking tricky is it? Christ, you'll start on the mouse button next.
"then it would be better if all other OSes (Linux, MacOS, etc) opted to mimic the Windows UI." well, this pretty much EXACTLY the approach being taken by OSX and KDE - and for exactly the reason you surmise. The fact that it makes both of them significantly worse than they could be is not relevent where the market is 90-95% Windows. Just ONE more reason why MS' mnopoly is bad news for all of us - even it's competitors get worse in their attempts to lure away long time Windows victims. It's a death spiral.
I think you're talking about OSX - no UI expert would ever describe OSX as scientifically designed, it even breaks APPLE'S guidelines!
1. the idea of the menu being at the top of the screen is that it provides a fixed target to aim at - this has been proved time and time again to be faster 2. have you never seen the application switcher? 3. you're right! imagine selecting "eject" from the special menu to eject a disk, or "eject" from the contextual menu, or "put away" or pressing CMD-E - i can see how someone might be confused by that. I prefer the Win9x method where you remove the disk from the drive and the machine bluescreens until you replace it - much more sensible. As OSX demonstrates admirably, Apple HAVE now unfortunately dissolved their human interface lab.
as Raskin himself points out, theming and eye candy has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with usability. And "most Mac users are fine with it"?? what the hell does THAT mean? - MOST Mac users most certainly are NOT using OSX - I can only use it on my home machine it's completely useless at work as it doesn't properly support the applications and hardware that we use with our production machines. Of the 53 Macs in my company exactly NONE of them are running OSX as of now - and none of our PCs are running XP either. We run a combination of Mac OS9, Win2K and NT4 - and I'd be surprised if any of those systems go to OSX or XP inside a year. The only possible reason why more people would dislike Platinum than Aqua would be that so many more people have been exposed to Platinum.
you're missing the point - the UI that you are so keen to modify was NOT scientifically designed, merely to someone else's preference (ie Jobs'). I too use OSX, but only because I HAVE to (OS9 WILL die), and I find it a usability disaster almost on par with Win2K - the worrying thing is that the only reason I use a Mac is because it's quicker, easier and more logical. OSX has changed that equation - Apple seem to think the reason people use Macs is because of the stylish hardware, I hope for their sake that they're right.
you're absolutely right - should've occured to me too :-]
err... a 747 has controls suited to a machine that moves in 3 dimensions, whereas the backhoe and car both move in 2. hence the similarities and differences. it is no mere coincidence that so many "creatives" prefer the Mac - the classic Mac Ui is demonstrably the quickest and simplest to use, therefore the least distracting from the REASON why you're sitting in front of the computer in the first place.
...because YOU are a computer manufacturer with over 25 years experience and therefore know better? Are you IBM?
clearly you have not experienced BMW's i-Drive. In 5 years we'll ALL be fighting with a feeble Microsoft rip-off of THAT one... yes, YOU'RE car will be running an MS misoperating system.
no, UI science is not misguided when you realise it IS a science and NOT a fucking opinion. You've heard of scientific method, I presume? UI science is what WASN'T applied to just about every non "Classic" MacOS, and that's why the MacOS (no, not X) is now - and probably will remain - the high water mark for general-purpose computer usability. The sad part is that Linux and Windows victims actually seem to find the infuriating Aqua desktop easier to learn than Platinum - personally I think that's down to having to unlearn less idiotic Windows/KDE paradigm, but still...
"...and finished development" THAT'S WHY JOBS IS A BILLIONAIRE - even if he IS an arsehole. Still, Raskin could really help out Aqua right now - APPLE I WANT MY AUTO-SIZING WINDOWS BACK PLEASE!
it really needs to be able to handle a fat Horsefly and a teeny Mosquito without falling apart - ideally it should be accesible but not too exposed to the wind, and anchored in at least 2 places to something solid.
I hate to see this kind of butchery too, but in this case he pulled the cases out of a DUMPSTER - Frankenstein's SGI has got to be better than landfill... saw someone turn a Vax rack into a fridge once - looked damn sharp in the cold machine room!
why would a billionaie be a crackhead - the man can afford the finest wines known to humanity without a second thought. Shit, he's got a gulfstream V hasn't he? 500knots at 50000ft? I wish I was rich :-[
I'm a long time Mac user and I laugh at PC case mods but I think this guys' work is really good. The only things that would have improved it (in my view) would have been to use a slot-load drive and a cleaner door arrangement. I LOVE his fan placement and lighting ideas. Kudos!
relax - you'll live longer
here comes the HAMMER
the problem here is that you can identify and replicate the EXACT specifications of your IBM or Compaq box for around half the cost with a self-build. putting it another way, you could upgrade a self-build TWICE as often. It's all IBM and Compaq's fault for offering NO ADDED VALUE in their systems - they could be and should be offering more than you could build yourself - that they aren't is a testament to the failure of their management teams - sooner or later they will have to leave the market - IBM lost over a BILLION dollars on desktop PCs last year...
exactly - there's no such things as "complete" or "exact" when it comes to real world simulation. Your original point was (to paraphrase) "when we can simulate reality faster than real time, we'll be fast enough" which raises the obvious question - how MUCH faster? look at a system like ASCI White - as far as we know it IS being used for the kind of simulations that you're talking about, and it's obvious that the skill of the programmers to correctly identify and implement the proper variables to be modelled is just as important as the hardware used to run their programs. garbage in...
have you been sniffing glue? simulate a scene down to the molecular level? this isn't HHGTG you know. get a grip, I think you've been playing The Sims too much.
you just have to work out whether your computer is more thermally effecient than your heating system - it probably is
w00t!