No, it just proves a point from Gnome human interface design. MDI should be used very rare with extreme prejudice. But when MDI is used that way (and it should be used), MDI rules.
Here is one example where they've gotten it wrong. Having two 22" monitors. Traveling to menu bar from second monitor......... it's aaa looooong waaaaay toooooo goooooo.
And if I'm not wrong. Most of my Mac users have two monitors. I have four on Xinerama on my Linux workstation, so personaly I can't imagine my self travelling all the way to menu bar. It would be the same as buying airline ticket to select a menu or a lot of 'throwing' in the next room.
You should probably read Gnome human interface design, it may make the same interest on you as this one.
Not to be trolling. But Apple made few mistakes.
Like first. From users point of view, they are addressing that grey is out and they posted completely white screenshot. That could be painfull for eyes. I know I was having troubles with MOX on my Powerbook. Everything is too white and bright.
Second point. They are addresing that you need to use big photorealistic icons. Not true. Photorealistic icons are not simple and preety. I agree, first look is gorgeous, but from users point of view, carton like friendly icons are much closer to non-pro user. Second the sizes needed to look cool for photorealistic icons are automaticaly bigger that sizes needed for handdrawn ones. It's the question of on-screen space and memory needed for program. Programs with larger images are automaticaly slower.
Thrird point. Constant use of controls. I agree but, why the hell QT and iTunes looks completely different than other ones.
Fourth point. Drop down dialogs out of captions are not as good as they seem to be. Apple suggests that ok, cancel, etc should be put on bottom of dialog. So you get two ok and two cancel buttons. Without some visible border between.
Fifth point. They forgot to take in consideration points of no happenings. While Aqua constantly freezes while you're waiting on something, there is no visible progress (at least as I checked out in 20%). This point is very good described in Gnome human interface design.
Sixth point. Suggested spaces between controls are too big. this forces them to use pager controls. Bad design Steve. On my powerbook, well simple dialog and screen was full.
Seventh point. Gray is not out. Aqua is not in. As much as I dislike Windows, there at least is option to choose non gray colors. On MOX, well no, it's WHITE. Skin interface rules.
Eight point. MDI is usable. It's just a point of usage (sometimes yes, sometimes not). Having hundred windows belonging to same application on screen all thrown up there on desktop is not really friendly. This point is nicely addressed in Gnome human interface design.
Well I could go on and on. But it should be enough.
Null version has international fonts, beutifully rendered, render chooser and complete intenational set of fonts. At least for language I'm using.
"In short - Red Hat got a LONG way to go to make something which even compared to the easiness of Windows 95! Mandrake right now is much more friendly on the desktop then any version of Red Hat (IMHO)."
In shorter - test the null beta. I've tested 9beta4.mdk and rh.7.3.94.null, guess what mdk has a long way to go. 9.0 just isn't competitor to rhnull
MS forces you to either buy, or subscribe (then cancel and own nothing, subscription doesn't make you permanent owner) Redhat gives, and offers support subscription if you want it.
So, basically YES, you've got it right. MS EVIL! BILL GATES SUXXORS! FIGHT THE DMCA! Good for Red Hat! Hooray open source! I can't wait to sign up!
considering your comment that you're an administrator over such network.
Administration tools? ssh over X11 client calling desktop control panels. webmin. name it, there's plenty of them
automated administration of network with 50-250 clients? service nfs share mounted on every desktop with a simple restoring deamon to please your likes?
firewall on clients? firestarter is gonna be included in future gnome releases
service pack distribution client? up2date in cron set to your local intranet ftp folder, with up2date deamon running on server
antivirus? that is an option
why an SMS option? if you're admin that knows what he needs, you can simply make your own, took me two days to finish and dispatch over all of my networks. now I update my own and remote lients restore all info they need and update them self
Downloaded and installed Redhat null after I long stopped using Redhat. Half of hour and I already knew this is going to be the distro I use on my new notebook which I'm waiting to come out.
It seems they poured serious $$ in desktop development. After I've spent some time on gnome to-do and plans. Well Redhat 8.1 is gonna be a killer (no doubt). 8.0 still isn't there for average Joe user (some small issues) but it's miles ahead any distro I know, there's a lack for gnome2 (mostly they are still in gnome 1 stage) apps, although Redhat shows and manages them the same, changed my keyboard to native and look, all kde, gnome1 and gnome2 apps are using it nice, changed look the same.
Redhat distro is the most easy, good looking and made out-of-the-box distro I've ever used. Predefault settings, and everything worked. But for my likes Rh is still easy maintained the old fashion way.
All I've said is that combining fiction with fiction is much easier than combining real movie with fiction. Results produced by the second one are often made lame and obvious, you always notice what's real and what's CG added. While on the other hand fiction in fiction blends more into a complete product
LOTR destroying culture? Never said that. I'm a fan of Tolkien. Movie adaptation of the book SUCKS MAJOR. Sometimes is good to take time and read a good book instead watching a lame movie adatation.
Starship troopers? At least the movie was going somewhere and wasn't 3 hour of lame shoot without feeling based on a well known book, ST is a light weight movie with action going on and that's it. Lame too, but better CG.
I would say only that watching (most of the) Hollywood movies is lame. They've been destroying movie culture with their low (or sometimes high) budget production and lame CGI with poor effects. Nice example of that is ATOC or LOTR.
While anime on the other side always has a plot and a story which is made more terrily. This doesn't come because it's anime, but because they always extend story to 6 or more hours.
Last great movie (movie not anime) I've seen was Juan Xin (The Eye) Chinese movie. No lame CGI, no lame tricks just a beautifull story and a pure horror (or thrill, whatever you choose).
Well, the trick in anime is that carton and pure CGI without combining with real movie enables you to enjoy SCI-FI without bounds, eveything is possible. There's everything made in a constant manner without bounds while Movie, well movie has bounds, too many. So when I look from my perspective, I like to watch a good movie, and I like to watch a good anime, I don't care if only whatever I'm watching is good (and since movies are getting more and more lame, anime is not getting worster).
Base idea and solution could arrise if one thread would be improwed with other comments. HOWTO would come out from himself out of this or some other better thread
Well, in my opinion he's risen out the right question.
There should be some HOWTO for that kind of thing, at least if you wanna see some more desktops joining in. I remember when everybody was eager to help schools to move to linux./. month or so ago.
HOWTO ----- Process should be divided to some various points.
1. Securing machine.
Securing bios, lockaway of power and reset button 2. Securing boot loader to disable user commands to kernel. You can even compile kernel to make some improvments to that point 3. Securing interactive service boot mode, make a change in rc scripts just to comment the lines waiting for input key to start interactive mode. 4. Securing X by disabling accessing terminals with Ctrl + Alt + F? 5. Disabling reboot without password and disabling reboot with Ctrl + Alt + Del (otherwise in some various points Ctrl + Alt + BckSpc and Ctrl + Alt + Del might enable user to reboot) 6. Disabling any kind of autologin
7. Next thing is securing desktop manager
It could be done in some various ways but best in my opinion is forst one. Personally I don't think that idea with guest accounts would be good. Much better choice is LDAP users and LDAP login. With this you can have as many centralised users as you want. But every new user gets new preferences and every user is able to choose desktop (Still you can install only one and disable that choice if you want equal desktops). Just protect icons on desktop for softwares you want (chmod 555). Extend that option with NFS share for storing their home folders. You just got your self moving profiles accessible from any computer in network.
Second idea is far easyer to achieve. after session, delete home folder, recreate new one from templated one with rsync and here is the point where user modifications to desktop are reset
Not a troll. But one who experienced wanna-be-comunism. And as it seems we do agree about apple and orange.
Comunism was a goal, result was something completely different. But the result was still called and common known as comunism. So apple became orange.
"An honest and Propaganda(TM) Free analysis of Socialism (Communism) does not lead to the ignorant McCarthyism 100% of Americans display."
Good point actualy. But considering that I was reffering "lack of knowledge" as "not living in country that was wanna-be-comunism". Not reffering to your political knowledge but practical (and only in the knowledge of what comunism is, sorry badly pointed out). Real truth is that comunism regime was never clearly represented outside of that state, because all countries I'm reffering were practicaly closed to outside world. Picture shown to outside world was completely different than reality. You might call that a misguided point of view.
To explain in a different simpler way. US is practicaly bounding it self with DRM, RIAA.... The ones who get worst of it are common people. That's a comunism from insider, but never comunist. Except that a participant in comunist party always had an advantage in every view. Look at that from another point "Cop never betrays cop". Doesn't that mean that cop can break the laws but avoid the punishment. Same was in comunism, comunist were always more protected by laws. On the other hand, having one company that dictates government as MS. Well, that's just a capitalist way of comunism (try to take this sentence not so hard as is, but as a refferal).
Which comunist country was ever promoting open standards. No one, comunism in the boks of Marx and Engels should be like that. Real life ain't. That's proven realm of comunism. Comunist party rules, other suffer and pretend they're happy. Either that or penalty.
Every comunist country I know has far less freedom of speech than some other non-comunist one. There were always strict (and cruel ones) penalties for even talking something against national politics and regime.
To take that thinking and compare to United States. I guess you're the ones that are moving towards comunism silently.
Open standard would be out of question believe me.
If you're not the original thread poster then accept my appologies, otherwise... But since we're so nicely posting previous posts comments, I doubt it.:-)
But if you're not, you should probably notice that it started as major trolling. So if you've fallen into this thread in a wrong time, well it has been a mistake. Check whole thread and then you'll know how big/. is. Oh, yes. I've just checked your info, and I'm almost sure you're the right person. You must enjoy in conversations like this. God forbid me, I enjoy them too. That's tipical either for life losers or people that are used to have the last word (guess what, I'm the second one).
"Not sure what version they're using" God, you've had a great and intensive look over something so complex as OS. It's just as terrile as testing space shuttle by spell checking what it writes on the bumper sticker.
And... My lack of faith has come from "using" Windows longtime:-) not looking
"I'm more worried about a good word processor. I looked into the OpenOffice windows client, and it simply doesn't meet my needs."
I agree, until MS Word can't make linked text frames, with tables that go trough few pages (with self maintained styled headers) and cross calculate beetwen them, and in the same time change graphs, pages overlayed with transparent pictures, oh yes and print to PDF. I agree, I don't need him. This wasn't begging for help, or dismaying a problem so I don't need an explanations. Second reason is that word processor is not what I need much (need other tools much more), but I need it in some manners very intensively
But since you're probably used to work in some different way, I won't persuade you to use it. Simply, I don't care what you're using.
Slashdot Mirror
So can I select green and everything is green. Wouldn't bother to edit preferences file
Personally I hate XP from my guts, as all Windows versions. But at least you have a choice to select colors. AQUA IS WHITE.
No, it just proves a point from Gnome human interface design. MDI should be used very rare with extreme prejudice. But when MDI is used that way (and it should be used), MDI rules.
Here is one example where they've gotten it wrong. Having two 22" monitors. Traveling to menu bar from second monitor ... ... ... it's aaa looooong waaaaay toooooo goooooo.
And if I'm not wrong. Most of my Mac users have two monitors. I have four on Xinerama on my Linux workstation, so personaly I can't imagine my self travelling all the way to menu bar. It would be the same as buying airline ticket to select a menu or a lot of 'throwing' in the next room.
You should probably read Gnome human interface design, it may make the same interest on you as this one.
Not to be trolling. But Apple made few mistakes.
Like first. From users point of view, they are addressing that grey is out and they posted completely white screenshot. That could be painfull for eyes. I know I was having troubles with MOX on my Powerbook. Everything is too white and bright.
Second point. They are addresing that you need to use big photorealistic icons. Not true. Photorealistic icons are not simple and preety. I agree, first look is gorgeous, but from users point of view, carton like friendly icons are much closer to non-pro user. Second the sizes needed to look cool for photorealistic icons are automaticaly bigger that sizes needed for handdrawn ones. It's the question of on-screen space and memory needed for program. Programs with larger images are automaticaly slower.
Thrird point. Constant use of controls. I agree but, why the hell QT and iTunes looks completely different than other ones.
Fourth point. Drop down dialogs out of captions are not as good as they seem to be. Apple suggests that ok, cancel, etc should be put on bottom of dialog. So you get two ok and two cancel buttons. Without some visible border between.
Fifth point. They forgot to take in consideration points of no happenings. While Aqua constantly freezes while you're waiting on something, there is no visible progress (at least as I checked out in 20%). This point is very good described in Gnome human interface design.
Sixth point. Suggested spaces between controls are too big. this forces them to use pager controls. Bad design Steve. On my powerbook, well simple dialog and screen was full.
Seventh point. Gray is not out. Aqua is not in. As much as I dislike Windows, there at least is option to choose non gray colors. On MOX, well no, it's WHITE. Skin interface rules.
Eight point. MDI is usable. It's just a point of usage (sometimes yes, sometimes not). Having hundred windows belonging to same application on screen all thrown up there on desktop is not really friendly. This point is nicely addressed in Gnome human interface design.
Well I could go on and on. But it should be enough.
Leading seller maybe. But still 95% of mac users still use macos9. So that would make Apple leading seller of non used OS.
Move to X is just too expensive. Most of the applications run still in classic (if they do), so there's no point to move from macos to X.
if you don't now already is! go to freshmeat snd type up2date in projects search :-) compatible with redhat up2date, tested
You haven't tested null version I see.
Null version has international fonts, beutifully rendered, render chooser and complete intenational set of fonts. At least for language I'm using.
"In short - Red Hat got a LONG way to go to make something which even compared to the easiness of Windows 95! Mandrake right now is much more friendly on the desktop then any version of Red Hat (IMHO)."
In shorter - test the null beta. I've tested 9beta4.mdk and rh.7.3.94.null, guess what mdk has a long way to go. 9.0 just isn't competitor to rhnull
MS forces you to either buy, or subscribe (then cancel and own nothing, subscription doesn't make you permanent owner)
Redhat gives, and offers support subscription if you want it.
So, basically YES, you've got it right.
MS EVIL! BILL GATES SUXXORS! FIGHT THE DMCA!
Good for Red Hat! Hooray open source! I can't wait to sign up!
yes, but there's an easy way.
you've got up2date server deamon for clients on network. update server and all clients will have a fast connection and no connection lost
considering your comment that you're an administrator over such network.
Administration tools?
ssh over X11 client calling desktop control panels. webmin. name it, there's plenty of them
automated administration of network with 50-250 clients?
service nfs share mounted on every desktop with a simple restoring deamon to please your likes?
firewall on clients? firestarter is gonna be included in future gnome releases
service pack distribution client?
up2date in cron set to your local intranet ftp folder, with up2date deamon running on server
antivirus?
that is an option
why an SMS option? if you're admin that knows what he needs, you can simply make your own, took me two days to finish and dispatch over all of my networks. now I update my own and remote lients restore all info they need and update them self
From the point of desktop, I used to think the same.
Tryed null, not anymore. Mandrake has just to big gap to close to come close to what Redhat has done.
And it seems they are succeding.
Downloaded and installed Redhat null after I long stopped using Redhat. Half of hour and I already knew this is going to be the distro I use on my new notebook which I'm waiting to come out.
It seems they poured serious $$ in desktop development. After I've spent some time on gnome to-do and plans. Well Redhat 8.1 is gonna be a killer (no doubt). 8.0 still isn't there for average Joe user (some small issues) but it's miles ahead any distro I know, there's a lack for gnome2 (mostly they are still in gnome 1 stage) apps, although Redhat shows and manages them the same, changed my keyboard to native and look, all kde, gnome1 and gnome2 apps are using it nice, changed look the same.
Redhat distro is the most easy, good looking and made out-of-the-box distro I've ever used. Predefault settings, and everything worked. But for my likes Rh is still easy maintained the old fashion way.
Subscription to support, you can still download it. up2date works too
Both are made lame and using overdose of CG and SF? But movies are different, I agree
Nope, not a bad example.
All I've said is that combining fiction with fiction is much easier than combining real movie with fiction. Results produced by the second one are often made lame and obvious, you always notice what's real and what's CG added. While on the other hand fiction in fiction blends more into a complete product
LOTR destroying culture? Never said that. I'm a fan of Tolkien. Movie adaptation of the book SUCKS MAJOR. Sometimes is good to take time and read a good book instead watching a lame movie adatation.
Starship troopers? At least the movie was going somewhere and wasn't 3 hour of lame shoot without feeling based on a well known book, ST is a light weight movie with action going on and that's it. Lame too, but better CG.
Wouldn't say that!
I would say only that watching (most of the) Hollywood movies is lame. They've been destroying movie culture with their low (or sometimes high) budget production and lame CGI with poor effects. Nice example of that is ATOC or LOTR.
While anime on the other side always has a plot and a story which is made more terrily. This doesn't come because it's anime, but because they always extend story to 6 or more hours.
Last great movie (movie not anime) I've seen was Juan Xin (The Eye) Chinese movie. No lame CGI, no lame tricks just a beautifull story and a pure horror (or thrill, whatever you choose).
Well, the trick in anime is that carton and pure CGI without combining with real movie enables you to enjoy SCI-FI without bounds, eveything is possible. There's everything made in a constant manner without bounds while Movie, well movie has bounds, too many. So when I look from my perspective, I like to watch a good movie, and I like to watch a good anime, I don't care if only whatever I'm watching is good (and since movies are getting more and more lame, anime is not getting worster).
They probably don't have server versions. And only remote administration is free, Client license not.
/.
Renew your license costs before you lecture others.
That theme has been discused too many times on
If only people would forget (KDE and GNOME) (Linux and FreeBSD) (One distro and other distro) disputes and concentrate on the problems instead.
Base idea and solution could arrise if one thread would be improwed with other comments. HOWTO would come out from himself out of this or some other better thread
Well, in my opinion he's risen out the right question.
/. month or so ago.
There should be some HOWTO for that kind of thing, at least if you wanna see some more desktops joining in. I remember when everybody was eager to help schools to move to linux.
HOWTO
-----
Process should be divided to some various points.
1. Securing machine.
Securing bios, lockaway of power and reset button
2. Securing boot loader to disable user commands to kernel. You can even compile kernel to make some improvments to that point
3. Securing interactive service boot mode, make a change in rc scripts just to comment the lines waiting for input key to start interactive mode.
4. Securing X by disabling accessing terminals with Ctrl + Alt + F?
5. Disabling reboot without password and disabling reboot with Ctrl + Alt + Del (otherwise in some various points Ctrl + Alt + BckSpc and Ctrl + Alt + Del might enable user to reboot)
6. Disabling any kind of autologin
7. Next thing is securing desktop manager
It could be done in some various ways but best in my opinion is forst one.
Personally I don't think that idea with guest accounts would be good. Much better choice is LDAP users and LDAP login. With this you can have as many centralised users as you want. But every new user gets new preferences and every user is able to choose desktop (Still you can install only one and disable that choice if you want equal desktops). Just protect icons on desktop for softwares you want (chmod 555).
Extend that option with NFS share for storing their home folders. You just got your self moving profiles accessible from any computer in network.
Second idea is far easyer to achieve. after session, delete home folder, recreate new one from templated one with rsync and here is the point where user modifications to desktop are reset
Isn't that funny?
Thoughts like this were known already.
Weren't people saying something like?
Linux as a server yes, but there's no way to use it on corporate desktop.
And this thoughts aren't even one year old
Not a troll. But one who experienced wanna-be-comunism. And as it seems we do agree about apple and orange.
Comunism was a goal, result was something completely different. But the result was still called and common known as comunism. So apple became orange.
"An honest and Propaganda(TM) Free analysis of Socialism (Communism) does not lead to the ignorant McCarthyism 100% of Americans display."
Good point actualy. But considering that I was reffering "lack of knowledge" as "not living in country that was wanna-be-comunism". Not reffering to your political knowledge but practical (and only in the knowledge of what comunism is, sorry badly pointed out). Real truth is that comunism regime was never clearly represented outside of that state, because all countries I'm reffering were practicaly closed to outside world. Picture shown to outside world was completely different than reality. You might call that a misguided point of view.
To explain in a different simpler way. US is practicaly bounding it self with DRM, RIAA.... The ones who get worst of it are common people. That's a comunism from insider, but never comunist. Except that a participant in comunist party always had an advantage in every view. Look at that from another point "Cop never betrays cop". Doesn't that mean that cop can break the laws but avoid the punishment. Same was in comunism, comunist were always more protected by laws. On the other hand, having one company that dictates government as MS. Well, that's just a capitalist way of comunism (try to take this sentence not so hard as is, but as a refferal).
That just proves your lack of knowledge.
Which comunist country was ever promoting open standards. No one, comunism in the boks of Marx and Engels should be like that. Real life ain't. That's proven realm of comunism. Comunist party rules, other suffer and pretend they're happy. Either that or penalty.
Every comunist country I know has far less freedom of speech than some other non-comunist one. There were always strict (and cruel ones) penalties for even talking something against national politics and regime.
To take that thinking and compare to United States. I guess you're the ones that are moving towards comunism silently.
Open standard would be out of question believe me.
If you're not the original thread poster then accept my appologies, otherwise... But since we're so nicely posting previous posts comments, I doubt it. :-)
/. is.
:-) not looking
But if you're not, you should probably notice that it started as major trolling. So if you've fallen into this thread in a wrong time, well it has been a mistake. Check whole thread and then you'll know how big
Oh, yes. I've just checked your info, and I'm almost sure you're the right person. You must enjoy in conversations like this. God forbid me, I enjoy them too. That's tipical either for life losers or people that are used to have the last word (guess what, I'm the second one).
"Not sure what version they're using"
God, you've had a great and intensive look over something so complex as OS. It's just as terrile as testing space shuttle by spell checking what it writes on the bumper sticker.
And...
My lack of faith has come from "using" Windows longtime
"I'm more worried about a good word processor. I looked into the OpenOffice windows client, and it simply doesn't meet my needs."
I agree, until MS Word can't make linked text frames, with tables that go trough few pages (with self maintained styled headers) and cross calculate beetwen them, and in the same time change graphs, pages overlayed with transparent pictures, oh yes and print to PDF. I agree, I don't need him. This wasn't begging for help, or dismaying a problem so I don't need an explanations. Second reason is that word processor is not what I need much (need other tools much more), but I need it in some manners very intensively
But since you're probably used to work in some different way, I won't persuade you to use it. Simply, I don't care what you're using.