"Well it would be possible should you use something aside from subjective data. Aside from that all I have seen thus far is TROLLING from a child who doesn't like coming in second."
The pot is calling the kettle black, it seems.
"Hey, if I was wrong, I doubt I would have gotten modded up so high."
Haha, how old are you? 12? Dude, this is Slashdot. If you can mange to post a pro-open-source comment and get modded down, let me know! Getting modded up is not proof of your speaking the truth. It means that somf of your open-source friends automatically mod up any post which is pro-OS. How do you think trolls that are gathering karma for trolling get their karma? They are modded up! Does that make them right?
The fact that you use modding to support your argument shows how hopeless of a case you are.
Your comment was factually incorrect, even on the first item: Opera does not have a larger footprint. Opera fits on mobile phones! Does Firefox? Didn't think so.
Then there's your rubbish "more buggy" with useless anecdotal evidence to support it. Sorry dude, my anecdotal evidence contradicts yours. So who is right?
And of course the "less support" comment which doesn't make sense at all.
Oh, and guess what! Firefox makes choices for you too! It has a default setup, which is chosen by someone else!
As you can clearly see, I have shown you that your comment about Opera was misguided and uninformed. Larger footprint?! Opera uses the same engine on PC and mobile, while Mozilla has to strip down Gecko to even fit it into 64 MB! Talk about "larger footprint".
Little boy, let us adults deal with discussions. You should read and learn until you are actually capable of coming up with useful and factually correct arguments, and not just repeating the tired old lies you've heard from someone who heard from someone else who...
Obviously it is near impossible to get through to you.
Wow, Mozilla and Firefox have several, do they! So does Opera, Firefox zealot. I already explained this. The 100K vs. 80K figure was just a simple example, forum vs. forum. I did not make any attempt at counting fansites, newsgroups, mailing lists and so on.
"Yay. You have 100K members, take that number by 10 and come on by come on by Firefox/Mozilla some time."
In case I didn't make myself perfectly clear:
We were talking about "community support". I was pointing out the fact that the Opera forum has more members than the MozillaZine forum. It is a measure of community site, but there are other communities out there as well.
Somehow, your open-source zealot brain has managed to twist this into being about how many people are using it in total, or you think all Opera users visit the Opera forums.
"Yay. You have 100K members, take that number by 10 and come on by come on by Firefox/Mozilla some time."
I've been there. The MozillaZine forum only has 80K members. I was specifically talking about the Opera forum at my.opera.com, and that is not counting the various fan forums, including foreign ones, not counting newsgroups, and not counting mailing lists.
"Again, as I said before, the problems you are having are more than likely related to your platform setup or that you are using an older version."
I regularly check for updates, so I always use the latest version of both Opera and Firefox. And guess what, Firefox is still more unstable than Opera. In fact, the latest Opera beta/preview is far more stable than any recent version of Firefox.
"But I like how your ineptitude with your OS gets blamed on the software; Bill Gates uses that tactic all the time too."
So your anecdotal evidence that Opera is buggier than Firefox is valid, but my anecdotal evidence of the contrary isn't? Please.
"Geezo you are twitchy and defensive. Did your mom beat you with a rake when you were a child?"
You know why I'm defensive? It's because I'm sick and tired of the mindless Firefox drones that keep repeating the same tired old crap about Firefox's magnificence and Opera's crappiness.
I'm sick and tired of hearing Firefox drones repeating the memes they've heard from someone else which they in turn heard from someone else, which... And it goes on forever.
I rarely see Opera users bashing Firefox. They are happy to use Opera and let you get on with your business using whatever floats your boat. However, I frequently see Firefox zealots attacking Opera and Opera users if anyone dares to mention Opera and suggest that it does some things better than Firefox.
I'm sick and tired of brainless open-source drones that go on and on and on about Firefox and how it's almost the second coming of Christ. I don't give a damn if it's open or closed source, I just want the damn job done! And Opera happens to get the job done for me, much better than Firefox does.
I realize that i might be damn near impossible for a brainwashed open-source Firefox zealot to fathom but this is a fact: Firefox is no the be-all end-all of browsers. It's just another browser, and it certainly isn't everyone's cup of tea. Being open-source does not negate this fact.
"And Buggier? Yes. Opera is slightly buggy. I've used Mozilla since 0.3 and I have to say that I haven't had a crash since 0.9; I have had discrepancies in how it shows the page but I realized that was due to bad HTML and not the browser."
Wow, anecdotal evidence is sooo great! Let me tell you, I use Opera more often than Firefox (which is only used for testing), but Firefox crashes far more often. Opera never crashes here. And stop blaming "bad HTML". It's a browser, so it should handle it.
"Less support means less community support. And no matter how you slice it, this is extremely true of any proprietary system vs an open source system. Open source software generally always has a larger community support network."
Oh please. The Opera forum has over 100K members, while the Mozilla forum has less than 80K. And that's just the Opera forum, and not counting mailing lists, newsgroups, and of course the support team at Opera.
Please, stop making assumptions and generalizing over open-source vs. closed-source. No, open-source software does not generally have a larger community support network. We shouldn't be making comments either way.
But stop it already, this "community support" nonsense is obviously not a fact, but yet another assumption from an open-source zealot.
"Yes, having others make choices for you is a very good thing... in a dictatorship. But luckily King George the second is about to get dethroned so I'm allowed to make choices for myself again. Yay pseudo-democracy!"
Great job on the useless analogies. Again, my point is that Opera gives you a useful place to start. You don't have to spend ages building your own browser. Everything is there, ready for use. Firefox needs to be extended and enhanced, because the default install is completely stripped down and nearly useless.
"Don't tell me what I am talking about. Opera's text ads change on a periodic basis. It is this animation that I am referring to; it's distracting to have something changing in the corner of your eye when you are trying to read something."
Wow, talk about grasping for straws:) But anyway, you seem to be referring to the useless throbber in Firefox again.
"Firefox decentralises this process by allowing anybody to extend the browser. If it turns out it's a feature most casual users want, then it'll get rolled into the main distribution. If not, at least it's an option for those that want it. With Opera, it's either put in for everyone, or left out."
You are completely wrong. Why do you Firefox zealots have to lie about Opera? Opera's default UI with Google ads is very small and easy to use. There are loads of advanced things you can do if you want to. But if you don't, you have an easy to use program right there, and loads of features at your finger tips, without them getting in the way.
Larger footprint?! Opera is a smaller download than Firefox, and Opera can even fit on a mobile phone. Firefox can't. Opera is far better with memory on my PC.
Buggier? Firefox crashes daily here, and even though I use Opera more often, it never crashes.
What is "less support" supposed to mean? It has forums, newsgroups, mailing lists, and proper QA, and free email support. You can get in touch with a real person who knows the program well!
As for Opera making choices, that's a good thing. Everything works out of the box, and I don't have to waste my valuable time finding an extension that works, sort of.
I still use Opera because I'm sick and tired of buggy and useless Firefox extensions. I'll happily pay for the convenience of a fully supported product which I know will work when I upgrade, and I won't have to upgrade every tiny little part separately.
Who cares? Seriously, I want the tool best suited for the job. Open-source is nice and all that, but if a commercial piece of software works better for me, I'll use it. Lots of people do use Opera, you know... They even pay for it:)
1. Opera fits on mobile phones, Firefox doesn't. Of course Opera is better with memory.
2. Faster than Firefox here. Ever tried going back?
3. So? You hardly notice it after a while.
4. Who cares? I use the best tool for the job. If it's commercial software, so be it. I pick my tools by quality, not by politics.
5. Well supported? What is that supposed to mean? You mean apart from the forums, newsgroups, mailing lists, the commercial company backing it, having to stay ahead of everyone else to survive?
6. Opera 7.5 is a lot prettier than the new Firefox theme...:(
7. Too simple is bad. It restricts me. Opera has a very nice interface, smooth and flexible. I far prefer it to Firefox.
Regarding bloated, that's a lame argument used by fanboys to justify their own browser. Opera is a smaller download than Firefox, even when you remove the exe compression. When a Firefox fanboy starts talking about "Opera bloat" I know he's grasping for straws.
"I wouldn't call something with an annoying, distracting animation in the corner of my eye all the time to be a damn good browser."
You mean the useless throbber in Firefox which gives no useful information? You can't be talking about Opera, because it uses static text ads served by Google these days.
"XMLHTTPRequest object, which isn't "weird""
It's certainly non-standard.
"Smaller and faster? Not in my experience. More feature-packed? You haven't actually listed any features it has that its competitors do not."
We all know that many (or most?) FF extensions duplicate Opera functionality, and you can count features all you want, but here's the part where Opera takes the lead:
The way everything is put together!
Opera is an integrated package, and everything is created to fit smoothly together. Features work together, complementing each other, working together, working well. And it works without having to build your own browser!
In contrast, Firefox is stripped down, and you have to spend a long time finding useful extensions. Problem is, they don't fit very well together, or at least not as smoothly as Opera, and they tend to be rather buggy, and you get problems when upgrading...
Opera is just a smoother ride. No effort, everything is there, ready to use.
One thing is that Opera is innovative and introduces new features for Firefox to borrow. What's really nice is that these features are created with a common goal in mind, and require no additional downloads, and they work when you upgrade.
Oh, and Opera goes back instantly, which Firefox doesn't.
Even with all these features (including chat, mail, rss and so on!), Opera is still a smaller download than Firefox. Yes, even if you remove the exe compression.
With Opera you can start surfing with speed immediately. No need to browse through hundreds of extensions to find something useful. It has what I need, built in, smoothly integrated, and so on.
That Opera works "out of the box" is a huge plus. I don't want to build my own browser, I just want something that works.
"Guess what - it's Opera's JS (or more specifically, DOM Level 2) support. Opera's DOM support is worse than IE for gods sake!"
Opera's DOM support is perfectly fine. The thing that doesn't work in Gmail isn't even part of a standard. It's a non-standard Gecko extension, XMLHttpRequest. I think you should probably inform yourself before repeating tired old memes that aren't correct anyway.
As for the UI, it's fine. It has lots of functionality, but doesn't take up much space, and it's easy to use.
Your post is a typical example of an uninformed Firefox fanboy who bashes Opera without good reasons.
"However, I just don't see why people expect that a _desktop_ browser should work on a Nokia Phone. I think a separate (or heavily cut down) rendering engine is a better idea, specialized exactly for small screens."
That's the beauty of Opera. You use the exact same engine on both PC and mobile. That's why it's so fast and smooth on PC too, I guess.
That Opera is bad at JavaScript is a myth from the old days when it didn't have proper DOM support.
Today, Opera does have proper DOM and JS support. It's just popular among hobbyist webmasters to claim otherwise. People who actually know their stuff, however, know that Opera handles JavaScript perfectly fine.
Sure, it might have bugs, but so does any browser, including Firefox.
Stop repeating the tired old lie you heard from someone else and keep passing on, that Opera has poor JS support. It doesn't anymore. It was fixed a couple of years ago.
Wow, you just found a minor issue in Opera. Firefox sure doesn't have any bugs!
Re:Does it work properly/completely with Opera yet
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Reality check... Firefox does crash. That's why you report crashes - to have them fixed.
Re:Does it work properly/completely with Opera yet
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The problem is that you'd suddenly be shutting out the vast majority of users - those using IE. Not a good idea, from a business point of view.
The "bloat" discussion, and more.
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"What on earth happened to the accusations of bloat?"
"Bloat" is very subjective. Mostly, the word seems to be used as an argument to put down another program. Opera is "bloated" because it is feature-rich. Firefox is "bloated" because it's a bigger download than Opera. It's almost always used as flamebait when browser zealot are fighting each other over which browser is better...
"Bloat" doesn't matter much, since Opera runs just fine with all these features included. They don't slow Opera down, and the latest UI is toned down so you won't get all features thrown in your face at once.
"As for stability, I have found that Opera fairly often when fed very bad HTML."
Then Opera would always fail. Most sites out there have very bad HTML. If a page crashes Opera, just report it to them so it can be fixed. Same with Firefox really.
"It also has some bugs, like making duplicate emails."
I've never seen this, ever. Not on my own PCs, and not from other Opera users. I have seen servers going mad and changing stuff so the email client downloads everything again, but that's a server problem. Opera itself does not duplicate emails. Maybe you are mistaking the fact that Opera has everything stored in one place and one email can show up in any number of virtual views, with duplication?
If we are to use a car analogy, you will obviously get serious flaws in the car itself fixed.
However, you will not get airbags and other safety enhancements in newer model cars for free.
This is perfectly reasonable, and is what Microsoft is doing: Security fixes will obviously be available for older supported Windows versions, but security enhancements, such as the popup blocker, will not be available.
"A couple of things you need to understand about the technology before you immediately jump out and declare it to be "slow"."
I think most people know how it's supposed to be in theory. But in practice, a lot of people, myself included, find it to be extremely slow.
Yes, eDonkey is still very nice. It has rare files, and they do come down eventually.
It just takes a helluva long time, theories or not! You can't will eD2k to be faster you know. It sounds like you are trying to explain that "slow is actually fast". People who have tried it know otherwise.
"The photos that come after the one at the top of the tower where you see the creepy hunched over guy's reflection are clearly meant to appear as though they were taken as the photographer ran like hell."
Slashdot Mirror
The fact that you use modding to support your argument shows how hopeless of a case you are.
Your comment was factually incorrect, even on the first item: Opera does not have a larger footprint. Opera fits on mobile phones! Does Firefox? Didn't think so.
Then there's your rubbish "more buggy" with useless anecdotal evidence to support it. Sorry dude, my anecdotal evidence contradicts yours. So who is right?
And of course the "less support" comment which doesn't make sense at all.
Oh, and guess what! Firefox makes choices for you too! It has a default setup, which is chosen by someone else!
As you can clearly see, I have shown you that your comment about Opera was misguided and uninformed. Larger footprint?! Opera uses the same engine on PC and mobile, while Mozilla has to strip down Gecko to even fit it into 64 MB! Talk about "larger footprint".
Little boy, let us adults deal with discussions. You should read and learn until you are actually capable of coming up with useful and factually correct arguments, and not just repeating the tired old lies you've heard from someone who heard from someone else who...
LOL!
Wow, Mozilla and Firefox have several, do they! So does Opera, Firefox zealot. I already explained this. The 100K vs. 80K figure was just a simple example, forum vs. forum. I did not make any attempt at counting fansites, newsgroups, mailing lists and so on.
I'm not sure how many ways I can explain this.
I just don't think there's any way I can really get through your thick open-source skull.
We were talking about "community support". I was pointing out the fact that the Opera forum has more members than the MozillaZine forum. It is a measure of community site, but there are other communities out there as well.
Somehow, your open-source zealot brain has managed to twist this into being about how many people are using it in total, or you think all Opera users visit the Opera forums.
Geez.
I'm sick and tired of hearing Firefox drones repeating the memes they've heard from someone else which they in turn heard from someone else, which... And it goes on forever.
I rarely see Opera users bashing Firefox. They are happy to use Opera and let you get on with your business using whatever floats your boat. However, I frequently see Firefox zealots attacking Opera and Opera users if anyone dares to mention Opera and suggest that it does some things better than Firefox.
I'm sick and tired of brainless open-source drones that go on and on and on about Firefox and how it's almost the second coming of Christ. I don't give a damn if it's open or closed source, I just want the damn job done! And Opera happens to get the job done for me, much better than Firefox does.
I realize that i might be damn near impossible for a brainwashed open-source Firefox zealot to fathom but this is a fact: Firefox is no the be-all end-all of browsers. It's just another browser, and it certainly isn't everyone's cup of tea. Being open-source does not negate this fact.
Please, stop making assumptions and generalizing over open-source vs. closed-source. No, open-source software does not generally have a larger community support network. We shouldn't be making comments either way.
But stop it already, this "community support" nonsense is obviously not a fact, but yet another assumption from an open-source zealot.
Great job on the useless analogies. Again, my point is that Opera gives you a useful place to start. You don't have to spend ages building your own browser. Everything is there, ready for use. Firefox needs to be extended and enhanced, because the default install is completely stripped down and nearly useless.Buggier? Firefox crashes daily here, and even though I use Opera more often, it never crashes.
What is "less support" supposed to mean? It has forums, newsgroups, mailing lists, and proper QA, and free email support. You can get in touch with a real person who knows the program well!
As for Opera making choices, that's a good thing. Everything works out of the box, and I don't have to waste my valuable time finding an extension that works, sort of.
I still use Opera because I'm sick and tired of buggy and useless Firefox extensions. I'll happily pay for the convenience of a fully supported product which I know will work when I upgrade, and I won't have to upgrade every tiny little part separately.
Who cares? Seriously, I want the tool best suited for the job. Open-source is nice and all that, but if a commercial piece of software works better for me, I'll use it. Lots of people do use Opera, you know... They even pay for it :)
2. Faster than Firefox here. Ever tried going back?
3. So? You hardly notice it after a while.
4. Who cares? I use the best tool for the job. If it's commercial software, so be it. I pick my tools by quality, not by politics.
5. Well supported? What is that supposed to mean? You mean apart from the forums, newsgroups, mailing lists, the commercial company backing it, having to stay ahead of everyone else to survive?
6. Opera 7.5 is a lot prettier than the new Firefox theme... :(
7. Too simple is bad. It restricts me. Opera has a very nice interface, smooth and flexible. I far prefer it to Firefox.
Regarding bloated, that's a lame argument used by fanboys to justify their own browser. Opera is a smaller download than Firefox, even when you remove the exe compression. When a Firefox fanboy starts talking about "Opera bloat" I know he's grasping for straws.
The way everything is put together!
Opera is an integrated package, and everything is created to fit smoothly together. Features work together, complementing each other, working together, working well. And it works without having to build your own browser!
In contrast, Firefox is stripped down, and you have to spend a long time finding useful extensions. Problem is, they don't fit very well together, or at least not as smoothly as Opera, and they tend to be rather buggy, and you get problems when upgrading...
Opera is just a smoother ride. No effort, everything is there, ready to use.
One thing is that Opera is innovative and introduces new features for Firefox to borrow. What's really nice is that these features are created with a common goal in mind, and require no additional downloads, and they work when you upgrade.
Oh, and Opera goes back instantly, which Firefox doesn't.
With Opera you can start surfing with speed immediately. No need to browse through hundreds of extensions to find something useful. It has what I need, built in, smoothly integrated, and so on.
That Opera works "out of the box" is a huge plus. I don't want to build my own browser, I just want something that works.
As for the UI, it's fine. It has lots of functionality, but doesn't take up much space, and it's easy to use.
Your post is a typical example of an uninformed Firefox fanboy who bashes Opera without good reasons.
Today, Opera does have proper DOM and JS support. It's just popular among hobbyist webmasters to claim otherwise. People who actually know their stuff, however, know that Opera handles JavaScript perfectly fine.
Sure, it might have bugs, but so does any browser, including Firefox.
Stop repeating the tired old lie you heard from someone else and keep passing on, that Opera has poor JS support. It doesn't anymore. It was fixed a couple of years ago.
Wow, you just found a minor issue in Opera. Firefox sure doesn't have any bugs!
Reality check... Firefox does crash. That's why you report crashes - to have them fixed.
The problem is that you'd suddenly be shutting out the vast majority of users - those using IE. Not a good idea, from a business point of view.
"Bloat" doesn't matter much, since Opera runs just fine with all these features included. They don't slow Opera down, and the latest UI is toned down so you won't get all features thrown in your face at once.
Then Opera would always fail. Most sites out there have very bad HTML. If a page crashes Opera, just report it to them so it can be fixed. Same with Firefox really. I've never seen this, ever. Not on my own PCs, and not from other Opera users. I have seen servers going mad and changing stuff so the email client downloads everything again, but that's a server problem. Opera itself does not duplicate emails. Maybe you are mistaking the fact that Opera has everything stored in one place and one email can show up in any number of virtual views, with duplication?WC2 does not have the same engine as SC.
Obviously it's fiction, but how do you know that the pictures were supposed to show someone running from something/someone in the woods?
If we are to use a car analogy, you will obviously get serious flaws in the car itself fixed.
However, you will not get airbags and other safety enhancements in newer model cars for free.
This is perfectly reasonable, and is what Microsoft is doing: Security fixes will obviously be available for older supported Windows versions, but security enhancements, such as the popup blocker, will not be available.
Yes, eDonkey is still very nice. It has rare files, and they do come down eventually.
It just takes a helluva long time, theories or not! You can't will eD2k to be faster you know. It sounds like you are trying to explain that "slow is actually fast". People who have tried it know otherwise.
What gave it away was that people got the unedited ones, not that they analyzed the photoshopped ones and saw that they were tampered with.