As xmedar points out, if you piss off the cops, they can make your life a living hell. And I'm not even talking the hyperbole about 'gitmo', either. Just 'ordinary' stuff like arresting you, keeping you for 24hours, then releasing you with no charges. How many times of that will it take for you to lose your job? Oh, you would file harrassment charges against them? Using what exactly for evidence? They say there's no record of your arrest, and you haven't been charged with anything....
Or suff like following you as you drive to work, and pulling you over for speeding... 31mph in a 30mph zone. As you were passing another car. Or stopping you because you were 'swerving' or what have you.
Yes, the average LEO is officially toothless in many situations. But they sure can bite hard in other situations.
how will access to the Oyster card database enable them to "harass political opposition".
This gives the police/security service NO additional powers to detain/charge individuals.
"Mr. Smith, we have here your travel records. Why did you exit the tube at [x] station last Thursday? We only ask because there was a crime comitted nearby..."
I could hire a PI to follow you around and accumulate a log of all your rail usage which would be identical to your Oyster log
But you can't do that to EVERYONE at the same time, nor can you easily cross-check and correlate everyone's trip against everyone else's.
Personally, I really don't care about cameras watching me. What I care about is the fact that these camera (and travel records, etc) are trivial to record and store for... ever. Once records are stored, you can point a computer at them and have it search for 'suspicious' patterns. This will lead to false positives.
You'll still be able to buy single (or multiple) trip tickets for cash,
If you show up at an airport in the US with a ticket paid for with cash (especially a One Way ticket), you are marked SSSS for extra security. I'm sure the UK can do something similar. After all, only those trying to avoid surveilance would use cash, Right?
Larry Niven dealt with this with some of his 'earlier' (earlier in his created history) stories involving Transfer Booths. In fact, one story involved someone carrying a body thru a Transfer Booth to a higher elevation, and he (and the body) warmed up due to the increase in potential energy, or some such. The warmer body was supposed to throw off the estimated time of death so the killer would have an alibi.
As for Time Travel stories, Rainbow Mars includes a mention that the pond out front of the [Time travel building] was not ornamental- they needed somewhere to dump the heat when they bring things forward in time.
You are suggesting that there is a corruption so pervasive in law enforcement
Cops stick together. They cover for each other. This has been shown time and time again.
that your complaint will make an enemy of the entire police force who will them abdicate their sworn duty to the public in order to be vindictive
"Who abdicating what? I just was on the other side of town when the call came in, and it took me a while to get there. Too bad about your wife, I'm sure she'll recover after some therapy..."
about a complaint so minor you didn't bother to actually take it up with someone who could actually do something about it....or wasn't allowed to. There are videos online of people who go to the police station and ask for complaint forms, only to be lied to, or intimidated.
We have a IF-you-kill-enough-people-(or-a-cop),-in-a-bad-enough-way,-AND-you-live-in-a-Death-Penalty-state,-AND-they-have-enough-evidence-to-go-for-the-DP,-AND-the-prosecutor-wants-to-go-for-the-DP,-AND-the-accused-doesn't-plea-bargain-it-down,-AND-there-are-no-mistakes-during-the-trial,-AND-if-the-jury-is-convinced-to-kill-you,-AND-if-the-numerous-mandatory-appeals-all-fall-thru,-AND-if-the-governor-doesn't-need-the-minority-vote-to-be-re-elected,-(so-he-commutes-the-sentence),-AND-the-media-doesn't-distort-the-case-and-drum-up-support-for-you-(Hi,-Mumia!),-THEN-you-might-be-put-to-Death Penalty.
It's a fine distinction, but if you look hard, you'll see it.
Can you provide any references to support this fact? 5% seems very low to me.
To be honest, it's just a number I remember from a previous thread on this topic. But a little Google-Fu got me this:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003265139_imprices19.html At a local QFC, Red Delicious apples go for about 99 cents a pound. Of that, only about 7 cents represents the cost of labor, said Tom Schotzko, a recently retired extension economist at Washington State University. The rest represents the grower's other expenses, warehousing and shipping fees, and the retailer's markup. And that's for one of the most labor-intensive crops in the state
5%, 7%, close enough. The point stands: wages could go up substantially (even enough to attract citizens instead of illegals) and the price of friut would not 'triple' or 'quadruple' as some scaremongers claim.
How much would the price of strawberries increase if the people picking them managed to get minimum wage, health benefits, safer conditions and unions?
Not much at all, all things considered. Labor costs are around 5% of the cost of an item. SO, you could increase labor wages by a factor of 10, and only raise the cost of the final product by 50%.
Example: Price per apple = $1.00 Labor cost per apple= $.05 Non-labor cost per apple= $.95 New Labor cost x 10= $.50 New apple cost= $.95 +.50 = $1.45
That's not bad considering the wage of the apple pickers just jumped from $2.00 per hour to $20.00 per hour!! (which is WAY above the 'minimum wage' you mentioned) I'm certain that, at $20/hour, you could get citizens to do the picking, instead of having to rely on illegals "because no one else will do it (for crap wages)".
Polo, MO, Hardened Underground Communications vault on 10 acres (more or less), built in the 1960's as a nuclear war-proof communications center, 8,800 sq. ft. usable floor space, 24" thick walls & ceiling, 2' to 4' of earth over, metal shield enveloping entire structure, two 1000 pound blast doors, 6 air vents with filtration and blast valve closure mechanisms, well on site, 10,000 gallon stainless steel water storage tank, escape hatch emergency exit, 177 ft. tower (a rental possibility). Lighting, pumps, fans, heating, cooling, dehumidification present in structure. Electric hoist operational. Commercial zoning, low property taxes. Video $24. Excellent for underground home or secure document storage facility.
Price: $299,000.00
So, 300 grand- about the price of a good house.
Atlas-F Sites
Wilber, NE. 21.9 acres (m/l). 30 minutes southwest of Lincoln, 10 minutes to Crete (has Super Wal-Mart). LCC and stairway dry with roughed-in lighting. Underground electrical & phone to structures. 176 ft deep silo stripped to bare walls( 90 ft of water). 2 original wells on site. New 14' X 24' log cabin kit under construction on private entry road.
A pretty home-site. Video available soon (not yet available) $24
Price: $229,000.00
of course, you can go crazy, too:
Titan I Site
Denver, CO. 210 total acres. Very rare piece of history - only 18 built. Massive 45,000 + sq. ft. of underground floor-space; high chain-link fence around central complex; 2 high capacity deep wells (into aquifer) in power dome; 3 missile silos all interconnected by mile of tunnels. Launch control dome is the best we've seen. Distant mountain views, just 20 minutes from metropolitan area and international airport. Large capacity elevator intact; needs reconditioned. Under new ownership; clean-up and refurbishment underway. Many unique possibilities for commercial or private usage. Serious and capable buyers only.
Video $24 PRICE : Firm at $1,800,000.00
(No owner financing, full cash at closing required.)
Your argument from authority is a coffee machine advertisement.
My arguement is the National Coffee Association's recommendations. Why would they LIE about how best to brew coffee???? Their purpose in life is to sell more coffee. If they give give bad instructions on how to brew coffee, people will buy less coffee because they hate how it tastes.
Besides, I have posted NUMEROUS quotes from many different sites on how coffee is best brewed. Your cite is ONE site, the points of which I have already rebutted elsewhere in this thread.
even if I weren't politically inclined to hope an old lady with crotch blisters can have her day in court with a billion-dollar international business
See what I mean about Appeal to Emotion?? "Appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy which uses the manipulation of the recipient's emotions, rather than valid logic, to win an argument. "
YES, she got injured. Severely.
SO WHAT? The accident that caused her injuries was HER OWN DAMN FAULT, NOT McDonalds fault. Repeating how horrible the injury was is "a logical fallacy".
So McDonalds wants me to buy coffee and let it sit for two hours before I drink it? Source please.
Well, I don't know about '2 hours', but this coffee was bought at the DRIVE THRU. As in, you buy it on the way to work. So, it would sit in a cupholder until you got to work. (Yes, some people drink it while driving, but that is unsafe and not to be encouraged.)
So, there is a reasonable expectation that there will be a delay between the customer getting the coffe and drinkign the coffee.
...says the Anonymous Coward./I'd say "Ow! What the fuck! That burns. Owww! Call the Ambulance! Damn!" And then continue to moan in pain.//What I wouldn't do is sue McDonalds.///Unless it was a McDonalds employee they threw it on me.
It's irrelevant how severe her injuries were? How does this even make sense in your head?
It's irrelevent for 2 reasons:
1) The accident was HER FAULT. Therefore, no matter how severe the injuries, McDonalds owed her nothing.
2) It was a BLATANT Appeal to Emotion. 'Oh, the poor woman was in severe pain. Just look at the horrible, horrible injuries she suffered. Look at the flesh peeling off the bone. And did we mention this was her, you know, 'groin area'. Imagine how humiliating to have burns 'there'. Don't you feel sorry for her and want to give her lots of other people's money??'
You overlook the fact that it was hot enough to put her in the hospital with 3rd degree burns.
What's your point? ALL coffee is that hot!
Also, you make coffee at 190-200 degrees, you don't serve it at that temperature.
Actually, you make it at "195 -205". As for serving temp, I've posted numerous references that confirm the correct holding/serving temp to be around 180 to 185, which is exactly what McDonalds used.
"...just 1 injury per 24 million cups sold! " Which goes to show something was wrong at the McDonald's
Huh? ONLY one cup in 24,000,000 ended up causing a burn. There are 50,000 deaths due to car accidents per year, and only 70 McDonalds coffee burns.
A) McDonald's NEW it was too hot.
I'm sorry, but you can't even spell "knew", but we're all supposed to listen to your opinion?
B) This particular cup was well above reasonable temperatures.As shown by the magnitude of the burns.
SHe spilled an entire cup in her crotch, and then sat there for up to 7 seconds. Neither of these things are McDonald's fault.
C) The lady spent 10 days in the hospital.
SO? I mean it's horrible, but it's also irrelevent.
Bunn does not say that 175 is too cold. They say "Dont reheat it".
They say 'don't reheat it', because once it's fallen to 175, it no longer tastes good. Therefore, for it to taste good, you need to keep it ABOVE 175. McDonalds had it 180-185.
And the rest of your articles give brewing temperature, not serving temperature.
NOT TRUE. Learn to read. The Homeclick link says "dispenses at the correct 180 degree temperature" DISPENSES, as in "serving temp", of 180. The Morekitchenappliences link is refering to a SERVING carafe that keeps coffee hot for SERVING to people. It mentions how well it hold the heat "based on water at a starting temperature of 203F".
You want more?
http://www.boyds.com/coffee/brewingguide.html "If brewed coffee must be "held" on a direct heat source, it should be held at 185F,....Lower temperatures make the brew too cold and consumers will be dissatisfied. "
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070926204605AAFm6xU "several restaurants, including the one I work for, have a minimum temperature that coffee must be served. In the case of the company I work for, it's 180 degrees+. So, a coffee may be "too hot" to your standards, but as far as the restaurant that served it, it was "just right""
Did your source [http://www.overlawyered.com/2005/10/urban_legends_and_stella_liebe.html] not seem reputable enough to link?
Sorry, that was not my source. Please play again.
in the early 1990's home coffeemakers only brewed up to 130-140 degrees
And today, they brew hotter.
http://www.bunn.com/retail/bunn_difference.html "The patented ready-to-brew reservoir keeps water at the ideal brewing temperature of approximately 200. (Conventional home brewers heat water until it boils up to coffee basket.)"
Bunn also recommends you DO use "a brewer that keeps water at 200 Fahrenheit" and that you DON'T even bother reheating coffee if it's "below 175 F".
McFact No. 1: For years, McDonald's had known they had a problem with the way they make their coffee - that their coffee was served much hotter (at least 20 degrees more so) than at other restaurants. ::sigh:: Fact: McDonalds did not have the coffee 'too hot': The National Coffee Association recommends coffee be brewed at "between 195-205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction" and drunk "immediately". If not drunk immediately, it should be "maintained at 180-185 degrees Fahrenheit." Coffee makers for your HOME brew at a water temp of 200+ degrees.
McFact No. 2: McDonald's knew its coffee sometimes caused serious injuries - more than 700 incidents of scalding coffee burns in the past decade have been settled by the Corporation -
Fact: 700 cases, in the last 10 years, nationwide. But that doesn't take into account how many cups are sold without incident. A McDonald's consultant pointed out the 700 cases in 10 years represents just 1 injury per 24 million cups sold! For every injury, no matter how severe, 23,999,999 people managed to drink their coffee without any injury whatever. Isn't that proof that the coffee is not "unreasonably dangerous"?
McFact No. 3: The woman involved in this infamous case suffered very serious injuries - third degree burns on her groin, thighs and buttocks that required skin grafts and a seven-day hospital stay.
Appeal to Emotion. It is irrelevent how severe her injuries were.
McFact No. 5: A McDonald's quality assurance manager testified in the case that the Corporation was aware of the risk of serving dangerously hot coffee and had no plans to either turn down the heat or to post warning about the possibility of severe burns, even though most customers wouldn't think it was possible.
Fact: McDonalds coffee cups have ALWAYS had a "Caution: Hot" warning on them.
McFact No. 6: After careful deliberation, the jury found McDonald's was liable because the facts were overwhelmingly against the company
The jury found for the poor little old lady with the great big, painful burns. It's called basign their decision on their Emotions instead fo the facts.
McDonald's consistently keeps its coffee at 185 degrees, still approximately 20 degrees hotter than at other restaurants
http://www.bunn.com/retail/dos_donts.html Do: "us[e] a brewer that keeps water at 200 Fahrenheit (the ideal temperature) " also Don't: "Re-heat for serving any coffee with a temperature below 175 F "
Do I need to continue???? All these references show that the 'proper' temp for brewing coffee is around 200 degrees. Several references show that the coffee should be served hot, around 180-190 degrees (ie: Bunn says if it's below 175 degrees, it is too cold).
So you say. I don't know, I don't drink coffee. What would YOU say is the 'correct' temperature, and why?
For what it's worth, the Coffee Association of Canada says "Restaurant and coffee shop machines are specifically designed to achieve water temperatures of 200oF (75oC)... ".
Why do people still bring up the McDonald's coffee case?
because it's a classic case of wild, outrageous, or ridiculous lawsuits.
Go look up the actual facts of the case and then STFU!
I am quite familiar with the facts of the case.
Stella Liebeck was in the passenger seat of her grandson's car when they got coffee at a McDonalds. Instead of handling the cup safely, she placed it between her (pointy) knees, and pulled the lid off. The pulling caused the cup to rotate between her knees, spilling the coffee on her crotch. This resulted in severe burns to her groin.
The main argument was that the coffee was "too hot" at 185 degrees.. This is not correct. Firstly, the National Coffee Association (and who better to know how to properly prepare coffee?) recommends coffee be brewed at "between 195-205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction" and drunk "immediately". If not drunk immediately, it should be "maintained at 180-185 degrees Fahrenheit." Second, coffee makers you buy for your home use water at that same temperature. (I can provide links to some online coffeemaker manuals if you doubt me.)
Another arguement the plaintiff used was that there are (gasp!) 700 other burns reported to McDonalds. 700 sounds like a large number, until you realize three things: 1) That number includes burns of all degrees. From First Degree (red skin, like sunburn) to Second Degree (blisters) to Third Degree (skin coming off). Since the number was not broken down by degree, one can only conclude that breaking the number down did not serve the purposes of the plaintiff. ie: most of the burns were mild. 2) that 700 figure was for the previous 10 years 3) that figure was NATIONWIDE. Also, that doesn't take into account how many cups are sold without incident. A McDonald's consultant pointed out the 700 cases in 10 years represents just 1 injury per 24 million cups sold! For every injury, no matter how severe, 23,999,999 people managed to drink their coffee without any injury whatever.
Conclusion- clumsy biatch dumped coffee on herself. It was NOT 'too hot', she was just clumsy. It was not "unreasonably dangerous", she was just clumsy. It was her own fault, McDonalds owed her nothing.
As a result of the foregoing, biological information indicative of a photographer need not be acquired every time an image is taken and, hence, processing executed by the imaging apparatus is not subjected to a load in terms of the sequence of photography.
And I still don't see how maglev can compete with airlines for speed on a cross country trip, it would have to average 500mph including stops to beat a 5 hour flight. And the article even says that maglev systems current average around 260MPH, so that's over a 9 hour trip.
That's a 9 hour trip sitting an a roomy train car vs a 5 hours flight crammed in like sardines with everyone afaid to go to the bathroom because they might be mistaken for a terrorist and get beaten down./Not to mention getting to the airport 2 hours early to get stripsearched and have your nail clippers and half empty 3.5 ounce bottle of shampoo thrown away.
Slashdot Mirror
"running the same analysis on different parts of the image and then comparing the results" is not the same as "you pick the results".
It is if you get to pick the parts of the image.
As xmedar points out, if you piss off the cops, they can make your life a living hell. And I'm not even talking the hyperbole about 'gitmo', either. Just 'ordinary' stuff like arresting you, keeping you for 24hours, then releasing you with no charges. How many times of that will it take for you to lose your job? Oh, you would file harrassment charges against them? Using what exactly for evidence? They say there's no record of your arrest, and you haven't been charged with anything....
Or suff like following you as you drive to work, and pulling you over for speeding... 31mph in a 30mph zone. As you were passing another car. Or stopping you because you were 'swerving' or what have you.
Yes, the average LEO is officially toothless in many situations. But they sure can bite hard in other situations.
how will access to the Oyster card database enable them to "harass political opposition".
This gives the police/security service NO additional powers to detain/charge individuals.
"Mr. Smith, we have here your travel records. Why did you exit the tube at [x] station last Thursday? We only ask because there was a crime comitted nearby..."
I could hire a PI to follow you around and accumulate a log of all your rail usage which would be identical to your Oyster log
But you can't do that to EVERYONE at the same time, nor can you easily cross-check and correlate everyone's trip against everyone else's.
Personally, I really don't care about cameras watching me. What I care about is the fact that these camera (and travel records, etc) are trivial to record and store for... ever. Once records are stored, you can point a computer at them and have it search for 'suspicious' patterns. This will lead to false positives.
You'll still be able to buy single (or multiple) trip tickets for cash,
If you show up at an airport in the US with a ticket paid for with cash (especially a One Way ticket), you are marked SSSS for extra security. I'm sure the UK can do something similar. After all, only those trying to avoid surveilance would use cash, Right?
Larry Niven dealt with this with some of his 'earlier' (earlier in his created history) stories involving Transfer Booths. In fact, one story involved someone carrying a body thru a Transfer Booth to a higher elevation, and he (and the body) warmed up due to the increase in potential energy, or some such. The warmer body was supposed to throw off the estimated time of death so the killer would have an alibi.
As for Time Travel stories, Rainbow Mars includes a mention that the pond out front of the [Time travel building] was not ornamental- they needed somewhere to dump the heat when they bring things forward in time.
a reasonably educated community
Have you seen what comes out of the public school system?
You are suggesting that there is a corruption so pervasive in law enforcement
...or wasn't allowed to. There are videos online of people who go to the police station and ask for complaint forms, only to be lied to, or intimidated.
Cops stick together. They cover for each other. This has been shown time and time again.
that your complaint will make an enemy of the entire police force who will them abdicate their sworn duty to the public in order to be vindictive
"Who abdicating what? I just was on the other side of town when the call came in, and it took me a while to get there. Too bad about your wife, I'm sure she'll recover after some therapy..."
about a complaint so minor you didn't bother to actually take it up with someone who could actually do something about it.
In short, since I stopped drinking milk, I stopped getting sick.
Even assuming you're telling the truth, "Correlation is not Causation".
Even the death penalty doesn't deter crime.
We don't have a Death Penalty.
We have a IF-you-kill-enough-people-(or-a-cop),-in-a-bad-enough-way,-AND-you-live-in-a-Death-Penalty-state,-AND-they-have-enough-evidence-to-go-for-the-DP,-AND-the-prosecutor-wants-to-go-for-the-DP,-AND-the-accused-doesn't-plea-bargain-it-down,-AND-there-are-no-mistakes-during-the-trial,-AND-if-the-jury-is-convinced-to-kill-you,-AND-if-the-numerous-mandatory-appeals-all-fall-thru,-AND-if-the-governor-doesn't-need-the-minority-vote-to-be-re-elected,-(so-he-commutes-the-sentence),-AND-the-media-doesn't-distort-the-case-and-drum-up-support-for-you-(Hi,-Mumia!),-THEN-you-might-be-put-to-Death Penalty.
It's a fine distinction, but if you look hard, you'll see it.
Can you provide any references to support this fact? 5% seems very low to me.
To be honest, it's just a number I remember from a previous thread on this topic.
But a little Google-Fu got me this:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003265139_imprices19.html
At a local QFC, Red Delicious apples go for about 99 cents a pound. Of that, only about 7 cents represents the cost of labor, said Tom Schotzko, a recently retired extension economist at Washington State University. The rest represents the grower's other expenses, warehousing and shipping fees, and the retailer's markup.
And that's for one of the most labor-intensive crops in the state
5%, 7%, close enough. The point stands: wages could go up substantially (even enough to attract citizens instead of illegals) and the price of friut would not 'triple' or 'quadruple' as some scaremongers claim.
How much would the price of strawberries increase if the people picking them managed to get minimum wage, health benefits, safer conditions and unions?
Not much at all, all things considered. Labor costs are around 5% of the cost of an item. SO, you could increase labor wages by a factor of 10, and only raise the cost of the final product by 50%.
Example:
Price per apple = $1.00
Labor cost per apple= $.05
Non-labor cost per apple= $.95
New Labor cost x 10= $.50
New apple cost= $.95 +.50 = $1.45
That's not bad considering the wage of the apple pickers just jumped from $2.00 per hour to $20.00 per hour!! (which is WAY above the 'minimum wage' you mentioned) I'm certain that, at $20/hour, you could get citizens to do the picking, instead of having to rely on illegals "because no one else will do it (for crap wages)".
How would they afford such a premises?
They're not that expansive.
From http://www.missilebases.com/ :
Polo, MO, Hardened Underground Communications vault on 10 acres (more or less), built in the 1960's as a nuclear war-proof communications center, 8,800 sq. ft. usable floor space, 24" thick walls & ceiling, 2' to 4' of earth over, metal shield enveloping entire structure, two 1000 pound blast doors, 6 air vents with filtration and blast valve closure mechanisms, well on site, 10,000 gallon stainless steel water storage tank, escape hatch emergency exit, 177 ft. tower (a rental possibility). Lighting, pumps, fans, heating, cooling, dehumidification present in structure. Electric hoist operational. Commercial zoning, low property taxes. Video $24. Excellent for underground home or secure document storage facility.
Price: $299,000.00
So, 300 grand- about the price of a good house.
Atlas-F Sites
Wilber, NE. 21.9 acres (m/l). 30 minutes southwest of Lincoln, 10 minutes to Crete (has Super Wal-Mart). LCC and stairway dry with roughed-in lighting. Underground electrical & phone to structures. 176 ft deep silo stripped to bare walls( 90 ft of water). 2 original wells on site. New 14' X 24' log cabin kit under construction on private entry road.
A pretty home-site. Video available soon (not yet available) $24
Price: $229,000.00
of course, you can go crazy, too:
Titan I Site
Denver, CO. 210 total acres. Very rare piece of history - only 18 built. Massive 45,000 + sq. ft. of underground floor-space; high chain-link fence around central complex; 2 high capacity deep wells (into aquifer) in power dome; 3 missile silos all interconnected by mile of tunnels. Launch control dome is the best we've seen. Distant mountain views, just 20 minutes from metropolitan area and international airport. Large capacity elevator intact; needs reconditioned. Under new ownership; clean-up and refurbishment underway. Many unique possibilities for commercial or private usage. Serious and capable buyers only.
Video $24
PRICE : Firm at $1,800,000.00
(No owner financing, full cash at closing required.)
Your argument from authority is a coffee machine advertisement.
My arguement is the National Coffee Association's recommendations. Why would they LIE about how best to brew coffee???? Their purpose in life is to sell more coffee. If they give give bad instructions on how to brew coffee, people will buy less coffee because they hate how it tastes.
Besides, I have posted NUMEROUS quotes from many different sites on how coffee is best brewed. Your cite is ONE site, the points of which I have already rebutted elsewhere in this thread.
even if I weren't politically inclined to hope an old lady with crotch blisters can have her day in court with a billion-dollar international business
See what I mean about Appeal to Emotion??
"Appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy which uses the manipulation of the recipient's emotions, rather than valid logic, to win an argument. "
YES, she got injured. Severely.
SO WHAT? The accident that caused her injuries was HER OWN DAMN FAULT, NOT McDonalds fault. Repeating how horrible the injury was is "a logical fallacy".
So McDonalds wants me to buy coffee and let it sit for two hours before I drink it? Source please.
Well, I don't know about '2 hours', but this coffee was bought at the DRIVE THRU. As in, you buy it on the way to work. So, it would sit in a cupholder until you got to work. (Yes, some people drink it while driving, but that is unsafe and not to be encouraged.)
So, there is a reasonable expectation that there will be a delay between the customer getting the coffe and drinkign the coffee.
...says the Anonymous Coward. /I'd say "Ow! What the fuck! That burns. Owww! Call the Ambulance! Damn!" And then continue to moan in pain. //What I wouldn't do is sue McDonalds. ///Unless it was a McDonalds employee they threw it on me.
It's irrelevant how severe her injuries were? How does this even make sense in your head?
It's irrelevent for 2 reasons:
1) The accident was HER FAULT. Therefore, no matter how severe the injuries, McDonalds owed her nothing.
2) It was a BLATANT Appeal to Emotion. 'Oh, the poor woman was in severe pain. Just look at the horrible, horrible injuries she suffered. Look at the flesh peeling off the bone. And did we mention this was her, you know, 'groin area'. Imagine how humiliating to have burns 'there'. Don't you feel sorry for her and want to give her lots of other people's money??'
You overlook the fact that it was hot enough to put her in the hospital with 3rd degree burns.
What's your point? ALL coffee is that hot!
Also, you make coffee at 190-200 degrees, you don't serve it at that temperature.
Actually, you make it at "195 -205". As for serving temp, I've posted numerous references that confirm the correct holding/serving temp to be around 180 to 185, which is exactly what McDonalds used.
"...just 1 injury per 24 million cups sold! "
Which goes to show something was wrong at the McDonald's
Huh? ONLY one cup in 24,000,000 ended up causing a burn. There are 50,000 deaths due to car accidents per year, and only 70 McDonalds coffee burns.
A) McDonald's NEW it was too hot.
I'm sorry, but you can't even spell "knew", but we're all supposed to listen to your opinion?
B) This particular cup was well above reasonable temperatures.As shown by the magnitude of the burns.
SHe spilled an entire cup in her crotch, and then sat there for up to 7 seconds. Neither of these things are McDonald's fault.
C) The lady spent 10 days in the hospital.
SO? I mean it's horrible, but it's also irrelevent.
Bunn does not say that 175 is too cold. They say "Dont reheat it".
They say 'don't reheat it', because once it's fallen to 175, it no longer tastes good. Therefore, for it to taste good, you need to keep it ABOVE 175. McDonalds had it 180-185.
And the rest of your articles give brewing temperature, not serving temperature.
NOT TRUE. Learn to read. The Homeclick link says "dispenses at the correct 180 degree temperature" DISPENSES, as in "serving temp", of 180.
The Morekitchenappliences link is refering to a SERVING carafe that keeps coffee hot for SERVING to people. It mentions how well it hold the heat "based on water at a starting temperature of 203F".
You want more?
http://www.boyds.com/coffee/brewingguide.html
"If brewed coffee must be "held" on a direct heat source, it should be held at 185F,....Lower temperatures make the brew too cold and consumers will be dissatisfied. "
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070926204605AAFm6xU
"several restaurants, including the one I work for, have a minimum temperature that coffee must be served. In the case of the company I work for, it's 180 degrees+.
So, a coffee may be "too hot" to your standards, but as far as the restaurant that served it, it was "just right""
http://coffeeflavour.blogspot.com/2008/02/right-temperature-for-hot-coffee.html
"Ideally, the right temperature for serving coffee is 165 - 175 degrees."
http://solutions-cds.com/FAQ.htm
"185 degrees to 190 degrees temperature for holding beverage coffee. "
Sheesh.
Did your source [http://www.overlawyered.com/2005/10/urban_legends_and_stella_liebe.html] not seem reputable enough to link?
Sorry, that was not my source. Please play again.
in the early 1990's home coffeemakers only brewed up to 130-140 degrees
And today, they brew hotter.
http://www.bunn.com/retail/bunn_difference.html
"The patented ready-to-brew reservoir keeps water at the ideal brewing temperature of approximately 200. (Conventional home brewers heat water until it boils up to coffee basket.)"
Bunn also recommends you DO use "a brewer that keeps water at 200 Fahrenheit" and that you DON'T even bother reheating coffee if it's "below 175 F".
McFact No. 1: For years, McDonald's had known they had a problem with the way they make their coffee - that their coffee was served much hotter (at least 20 degrees more so) than at other restaurants.
::sigh::
Fact: McDonalds did not have the coffee 'too hot':
The National Coffee Association recommends coffee be brewed at "between 195-205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction" and drunk "immediately". If not drunk immediately, it should be "maintained at 180-185 degrees Fahrenheit." Coffee makers for your HOME brew at a water temp of 200+ degrees.
McFact No. 2: McDonald's knew its coffee sometimes caused serious injuries - more than 700 incidents of scalding coffee burns in the past decade have been settled by the Corporation -
Fact: 700 cases, in the last 10 years, nationwide. But that doesn't take into account how many cups are sold without incident. A McDonald's consultant pointed out the 700 cases in 10 years represents just 1 injury per 24 million cups sold! For every injury, no matter how severe, 23,999,999 people managed to drink their coffee without any injury whatever. Isn't that proof that the coffee is not "unreasonably dangerous"?
McFact No. 3: The woman involved in this infamous case suffered very serious injuries - third degree burns on her groin, thighs and buttocks that required skin grafts and a seven-day hospital stay.
Appeal to Emotion. It is irrelevent how severe her injuries were.
McFact No. 5: A McDonald's quality assurance manager testified in the case that the Corporation was aware of the risk of serving dangerously hot coffee and had no plans to either turn down the heat or to post warning about the possibility of severe burns, even though most customers wouldn't think it was possible.
Fact: McDonalds coffee cups have ALWAYS had a "Caution: Hot" warning on them.
McFact No. 6: After careful deliberation, the jury found McDonald's was liable because the facts were overwhelmingly against the company
The jury found for the poor little old lady with the great big, painful burns. It's called basign their decision on their Emotions instead fo the facts.
McDonald's consistently keeps its coffee at 185 degrees, still approximately 20 degrees hotter than at other restaurants
Wrong, wrong wrong.
http://www.coffeeserviceplus.com/perfect-cup.html
"Brewing temperature should be 195 to 205 degrees Fahrenheit. "
http://www.auniquecoffeeservice.com/brewingsystems.html
"205 F Brewing Temperature "
http://www.morekitchenappliances.com/asp/show_detail.asp?sku=ZOJ1066&PiID=2259383&refid=MP108-ZOJ1066_2259383#ProdDetails
"Heat Retention*: 169F at 10 hrs./136F at 24 hrs.
*Rating is based on water at a starting temperature of 203F (95C) at a room temperature of 68F (20C) "
http://www.bunn.com/retail/dos_donts.html
Do: "us[e] a brewer that keeps water at 200 Fahrenheit (the ideal temperature) "
also
Don't: "Re-heat for serving any coffee with a temperature below 175 F "
http://www.homeclick.com/1/1/13032-velox-travel-coffee-maker-yellow-7027y.html
"Just plug in and the coffee automatically dispenses at the correct 180 degree temperature"
Do I need to continue???? All these references show that the 'proper' temp for brewing coffee is around 200 degrees. Several references show that the coffee should be served hot, around 180-190 degrees (ie: Bunn says if it's below 175 degrees, it is too cold).
So you say. I don't know, I don't drink coffee. What would YOU say is the 'correct' temperature, and why?
For what it's worth, the Coffee Association of Canada says "Restaurant and coffee shop machines are specifically designed to achieve water temperatures of 200oF (75oC)... ".
Why do people still bring up the McDonald's coffee case?
because it's a classic case of wild, outrageous, or ridiculous lawsuits.
Go look up the actual facts of the case and then STFU!
I am quite familiar with the facts of the case.
Stella Liebeck was in the passenger seat of her grandson's car when they got coffee at a McDonalds. Instead of handling the cup safely, she placed it between her (pointy) knees, and pulled the lid off. The pulling caused the cup to rotate between her knees, spilling the coffee on her crotch. This resulted in severe burns to her groin.
The main argument was that the coffee was "too hot" at 185 degrees.. This is not correct. Firstly, the National Coffee Association (and who better to know how to properly prepare coffee?) recommends coffee be brewed at "between 195-205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction" and drunk "immediately". If not drunk immediately, it should be "maintained at 180-185 degrees Fahrenheit." Second, coffee makers you buy for your home use water at that same temperature. (I can provide links to some online coffeemaker manuals if you doubt me.)
Another arguement the plaintiff used was that there are (gasp!) 700 other burns reported to McDonalds. 700 sounds like a large number, until you realize three things:
1) That number includes burns of all degrees. From First Degree (red skin, like sunburn) to Second Degree (blisters) to Third Degree (skin coming off). Since the number was not broken down by degree, one can only conclude that breaking the number down did not serve the purposes of the plaintiff. ie: most of the burns were mild.
2) that 700 figure was for the previous 10 years
3) that figure was NATIONWIDE.
Also, that doesn't take into account how many cups are sold without incident. A McDonald's consultant pointed out the 700 cases in 10 years represents just 1 injury per 24 million cups sold! For every injury, no matter how severe, 23,999,999 people managed to drink their coffee without any injury whatever.
Conclusion- clumsy biatch dumped coffee on herself. It was NOT 'too hot', she was just clumsy. It was not "unreasonably dangerous", she was just clumsy. It was her own fault, McDonalds owed her nothing.
Um, you fail.
As a result of the foregoing, biological information indicative of a photographer need not be acquired every time an image is taken and, hence, processing executed by the imaging apparatus is not subjected to a load in terms of the sequence of photography.
without a print-out of the order confirmation, there's no evidence the contract was ever made
Um, who DOESN'T make a printout of their online orders??? Especially ones like this with 'extra special savings'?
And I still don't see how maglev can compete with airlines for speed on a cross country trip, it would have to average 500mph including stops to beat a 5 hour flight. And the article even says that maglev systems current average around 260MPH, so that's over a 9 hour trip.
/Not to mention getting to the airport 2 hours early to get stripsearched and have your nail clippers and half empty 3.5 ounce bottle of shampoo thrown away.
That's a 9 hour trip sitting an a roomy train car vs a 5 hours flight crammed in like sardines with everyone afaid to go to the bathroom because they might be mistaken for a terrorist and get beaten down.