The constitution is a written document. It is readable and the words have meaning. It is wrong to put precedent and 'standard definition' above the words and meaning that pre-existed those precedents.
There are many instances where a warrant is not needed to enter a private residence. The need for a warrant is not absolute. The 4th amendment, although mentioning warrants, does not require one for searches and seizures. What it prohibits is 'unreasonable' search and seizures. In this case, I believe they did have reason and probably enough for a warrant which they should have gotten.
$2 million dollars for 14 days in jail is unreasonable. There are plenty of innocent average joes who get sent to jail and receive much less, if anything at all. Why does this guy get so much? That $2 million comes from your tax dollars and mine.
When someone uses America and American so much in one post, I do feel like my service counts for something. In this case, it means stop trying to wrap yourself in the flag and/or stuff the flag down my gullet.
The whole idea of 'standard definition' is so rediculous, I have to think maybe you took one too many polysci courses in college. If Bush gets one more Supreme or the next president is not Hillary Clinton, your 'standard definition' is going to radically change. Which means it is not a standard.
I still graduated with honors. CS was in the Natural Sciences so the GPA for honors was inflated by all the idiots taking Interior Design and other cruft.
When I worked at a startup in Silicon Valley, one of my Chinese co-workers gave me the back handed compliment that I was pretty smart for an American.
The truth is that for CS, you are more likely to learn out-dated information rather then cutting edge stuff. When you get out into the real world, you pretty much have to stay on the cutting edge or start working on a career in management.
It's just a piece of paper and mine is framed and hanging in the garage.
I think you are very naive in your assumptions. At the level of interpreting constitutional law, judges are more likely to be political appointees with a life term. It is not a job that any American can get or even try to get. Some states elect judges, but they are almost invariably local and of limited influence.
The idea of a standard interpretation is also flawed. What was the standard interpretation before "Roe vs Wade"? Did society change overnight? If so, why do a majority of Americans still oppose abortion rights? Abortion is still a hot button issue to this day.
If there is a standard interpretation, why do so many civil rights cases get tried on the left coast as opposed to say Utah? Why do so many land mark rulings seem to come from San Francisco and Oregon?
You can mention America a hundred times and even question my patriotism, but that doesn't make you right. I earned my citizenship, can you say the same?
This is just a stupid complaint, not a serious bug. Why doesn't he just activate Visio? It's a valid point.
You may not agree with their philosophy or their implementation, but MS can do this if they want. Maybe they want people to validate all office components, maybe this is a bug in their client or server. Either way, this is just much ado about nothing from people who should know better.
MS gets it coming and going on Slashdot, which gets tedious. Like this whole non-story.
In general, you are correct. However, it takes a different set of skills to be a sniper/scout or a forward air controller, then to be a ranger or seal. In fact, some of the best shots in the military are women. Physical fitness might be important for some missions, but intelligence (ability to think) is always going to be a necessity.
Look at what happened to the seals in Panama. They made some fundamentally wrong choices and paid the price.
I'm not re-interpreting anything. It is my interpretation. You seem to believe that there is a 'standard' interpretation somewhere. There isn't. There are a bunch of judges who hear arguments, usually but not always, based on previous precedents. Those judges re-interpret and add to those precedents all the time.
Lawyers are treated as the new priest class and judges are the high priests. In reality, they are the Wizards of Oz, sounding righteous and superior while hoping beyond hope that we don't peek behind the curtain.
I don't even own a gun even though I am a rifle/pistol expert 3rd award.
Here are some what ifs to consider:
What if the kid in the cart is a skin head and the old women is not white. What if instead of an old woman, it is a mother/father with some little kids. What if instead of an old woman doing the shooting, it is a security guard trying to protect her.
Yelling stop isn't going to stop the kart if the kids can't hear you cause they are yelling and screaming already.
---
There was a girl who baked some cookies. She decided to share them with her neighbors. This is in rural America, btw. She delivered them in the early evening. One of the houses she visited had an old lady who lived there. The old lady wasn't expecting any one to come by and didn't answer the door. The girl knocked harder, which only frightened the old lady more. Then the girl started peering in the windows and knocking on the glass.
Luckily, the old lady called the cops, but she would have been well within her rights to defend her property and her self, with deadly force if necessary. That's a right I will fight for. Idiots doing idiotic things for their own selfish interests and then claiming them as rights, they can go to hell.
"200 years of professional judicial interpretations"
Funny how 200 years of professional judicial interpretations has produced wildly different interpretations thru the years. Do you really think that all judges see the 4th ammendment the same way? How about any two random judges?
It's pathetic when people appeal to a higher power instead of an actual argument.
I'm not afraid for myself, I'm actually afraid for the kids pushing the karts and the grandma coming around the corner. Don't you think she would be afraid even a little bit? Could you honestly convict her of anything if she did act in self-defense? Should she break her hip so these moronic kids can continue to do moronic things and expect no repurcusions?
There was a bunch of base jumpers up in Yosemite protesting a ban on base jumping. The husband was being interviewed at the same time that his wife was doing a base jump. They were watching it and he was cheering her on. Her chute never opened. I mourn for her and her husband, but I don't have any pity for them.
Simple answer, actions have consequences beyond intentions.
The Marine Corps is pound for pound, dollar for dollar, the most effective war fighting instrument in the US arsenal. If the Army wanted a cheap, effective and rugged prototype for the wired soldier of the future, they should have just asked the Marines to develop it for them.
They probably spent more on this project then the Marines spend on R&D for a whole year.
He got $2 million dollars. Also, he didn't get convicted.
The 4th ammendment protects against unreasonable searches and seizures. I don't see anything in this case that is unreasonable. The FBI had a partial match, they investigated until the person who really matched was found. Then they released the guy. Then he got paid.
The "and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause" part is clearly seperate from the "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated" part. Yeah, I know that it has been interpreted differently, but then I can actually read.
What is unreasonable is that this guy got $2 million for something that happens all the time to people in the US and all over the globe. 14 days in jail?
This is not a case of society giving up any rights. You don't have the right to be above suspicion in you wifes suspicious death. You also don't have the right to be a moron with impunity.
Anyone see that cell phone add where a bunch of people doing different stuff all get an IM and rush off to some super market. They all act very suspicious and then do a cart race in the middle of the store. I think that ad should have a gun shot at the end. I know that will strike some of you as odd or bad, but what a stupid thing to advertise. "Use our products and scare the jeebus out of old people at a supermarket", seems to be an odd message.
I could see the defense lawyer now, "There was a cart coming at high speed down a narrow isle and lots of screaming... my client was afraid for their life and had no chance to withdraw from the situation." That's self-defense, pure and simple.
Same thing with the MIT chick and her play-dough performance art. I would mourn the death of a person in these situations, but I would still find the person responsible 'not guilty'.
"So I don't see why MS wouldn't intentionally taint open/free code with patent-encumbered code, under direction from management. It's only to their benefit."
Because it's open? Because everyone can look at it? Because it will probably have to be built using GNU tools and libraries?
I could go on. Sprint and Verizon didn't have to taint Vonage for them to have violated a patent.
"but their zealotry is confined to doing the right thing"
I'm sure there are many here on slashdot that would consider tainting Office or Exchange a right thing to do. MS is an Illegal Monopoly and opening up either of those two things would certainly be a boon for open/free land. That's why I think it is likely to happen.
Doing the right thing isn't hard. It's knowing what is right. Once you know something is right, doing it is easy.*
Their faction was Marine Grunts or something. They claimed to be stationed at Pendleton, don't remember which camp but they knew enough about the camp to convince me. For all I know they are still doing the same thing. It takes less then 5 minutes to do my turns and I'm only in it until I can afford the private island. That and hotgirl69.
I was in the Corps, which gives me the right to say anything I want about the Suck, including that it sucks.
Some of my favorite quotes: "Every Marine is a qualified janitor first and foremost." "Sir, the plan of the day! The plan of the day is all officers shall wear swords, all enlisted shall wear brooms and mops, carry on with the plan of the day!" "I told Gunny that putting camoflage netting on a three story tower on top of a hill was a bad idea, so I got 3 days leave." "A Master Sgt is just an alcoholic waiting to retire." -- Told to my Master Sgt "I love being a Marine, but I hated being in the Marine Corps"
My brother wrote a book about the Marine Corps titled "The Marines or why they issue you vaseline at boot camp".
I play Torn City, which doesn't have avatars, yet there are a lot of males pretending to be females. Believe me, when you find out hotgirl69 is really a 12 year old boy, you have to wonder if this is a good phenomenon. Try explaining to a judge and jury that it was only a game or your wife.
Then there is the faction of male US Marines who marry each other to live in a better house. I'm sure their Gunny will just take their word for it that it's only a game, as well as their fellow grunts. Right or wrong, that would get you thrown down a flight of stairs in my day.
Eventually they will ask for protection on the desktop. Before everyone starts calling me a dunce or troll, I understand how impossible that will be. I'm just saying that they will eventually ask for some sort of legal remedy to suppress peoples ability to circumvent their copyrights. I'm pretty sure that the congress will give it to them.
Expect to receive a letter from "ebay" or "pay-pal" even if you really weren't one of the 1200.
Seriously, if you know anyone who uses ebay, let them know that email is not verified as regards the sender. My wife uses ebay on my account and I get phishing attacks thru ebay and paypal all the time. I'm sure this breach(?) will only make those phishing attacks more common and more effective.
Not trying to pick a fight, but the open/free community is certainly not without its ethically challenged members.
I think it is entirely possible that we will see GPLv3 code maliciously added to non-GPL code with the express purpose of tainting it. I seriously doubt that MS employees have the same zealotry that the open/free community has. After all, most MS employees are probably only there for the pay check. You definately can't say the same thing about the open/free crowd.
Thanks for the responses, I really didn't know. I'll continue to legally take header files and structures that implement standards, as there is no copyright protection for them, irregardless of the license. I'll also continue to report bugs and bug fixes to the projects that I have to interract with, irregardless of the license.
Got to keep protecting the 5th freedom, which is to not give a damn.
Couldn't agree more with you about Gould. One of the great things he does is weave his own fascination into the science. Some of my favorite articles by him are about non-startling science, such as discovering 'Stasis' in Greece. I was too young to have made the connection when I lived there.
His article about 'the myth of a flat earth' is frankly brilliant and his conclusion of why the myth developed such a strong following is dead on (especially here on slashdot where accusing some one of believing in a flat earth is the height of witticism).
My advice if you really want to report science to the masses is to not dumb it down and don't try to sensationalize it. Your audience is already interested or they wouldn't have started reading it in the first place.
It's more likely that a patent infringement would be added unwittingly by a third (or fourth) party. The GPLv3 does what it can, but it can't magically give immunity from patent infringement. Well, except for the case you outlined which is probably the least likely to occur.
I think this attitude is why so many developers are turned off by the GPLv3.
Is there a clause in the GPLv3 that makes the "or later" mandatory? If that's the case, might as well sign it all over to the FSF or better yet just put "This software is released in whatever manner RMS decides at any time now or in the future".
Still, I wonder about the legality of enforcing a license that doesn't exist or didn't exist when you first got the source. "This software is released under a future license which we will let you know about when we get around to it" doesn't sound very legal.
You posted this... "However, as I pointed out, the AG didn't sign that piece of paper authorizing whatever the NSA is doing now, which would say something like 'Under penalty of perjury I certify that this is tap is on non-citizens to the best of my knowledge'."
And now this... "He's not asserting that. We already figured that out. He's not stupid enough to risk perjury charges, and, more to the point, that wouldn't allow the administration to install spy equipment inside the telecoms."
"This lawbreaking didn't have anything to do with the non-citizen authorization the AG can make, that's a stupid red herring."
Asserting a reason for a tap and guaranteeing that the tap is of non-US-citizens only, are two completely different things. I'm not even saying that it is not how you describe. Maybe the AG does assert something in his authorization, I'm saying it is stupid to do so.
I assert you will not respond in a stupid manner to this post. See, I can't guarantee that, can I.
I assert that the phone we are tapping will never be used either by a US citizen or used to call a US citizen. See, you can't guarantee that either. No one can. Maybe he is asserting it. If he is, he probably shouldn't be the AG.
Anywhile, this is mostly a moot point since the law has since been amended and the congress is going to give the telcos immunity. Feel free to keep whining about it though. It's never a good idea to let these things fester.
Slashdot Mirror
The constitution is a written document. It is readable and the words have meaning. It is wrong to put precedent and 'standard definition' above the words and meaning that pre-existed those precedents.
There are many instances where a warrant is not needed to enter a private residence. The need for a warrant is not absolute. The 4th amendment, although mentioning warrants, does not require one for searches and seizures. What it prohibits is 'unreasonable' search and seizures. In this case, I believe they did have reason and probably enough for a warrant which they should have gotten.
$2 million dollars for 14 days in jail is unreasonable. There are plenty of innocent average joes who get sent to jail and receive much less, if anything at all. Why does this guy get so much? That $2 million comes from your tax dollars and mine.
When someone uses America and American so much in one post, I do feel like my service counts for something. In this case, it means stop trying to wrap yourself in the flag and/or stuff the flag down my gullet.
The whole idea of 'standard definition' is so rediculous, I have to think maybe you took one too many polysci courses in college. If Bush gets one more Supreme or the next president is not Hillary Clinton, your 'standard definition' is going to radically change. Which means it is not a standard.
I still graduated with honors. CS was in the Natural Sciences so the GPA for honors was inflated by all the idiots taking Interior Design and other cruft.
When I worked at a startup in Silicon Valley, one of my Chinese co-workers gave me the back handed compliment that I was pretty smart for an American.
The truth is that for CS, you are more likely to learn out-dated information rather then cutting edge stuff. When you get out into the real world, you pretty much have to stay on the cutting edge or start working on a career in management.
It's just a piece of paper and mine is framed and hanging in the garage.
I think you are very naive in your assumptions. At the level of interpreting constitutional law, judges are more likely to be political appointees with a life term. It is not a job that any American can get or even try to get. Some states elect judges, but they are almost invariably local and of limited influence.
The idea of a standard interpretation is also flawed. What was the standard interpretation before "Roe vs Wade"? Did society change overnight? If so, why do a majority of Americans still oppose abortion rights? Abortion is still a hot button issue to this day.
If there is a standard interpretation, why do so many civil rights cases get tried on the left coast as opposed to say Utah? Why do so many land mark rulings seem to come from San Francisco and Oregon?
You can mention America a hundred times and even question my patriotism, but that doesn't make you right. I earned my citizenship, can you say the same?
This is just a stupid complaint, not a serious bug. Why doesn't he just activate Visio? It's a valid point.
You may not agree with their philosophy or their implementation, but MS can do this if they want. Maybe they want people to validate all office components, maybe this is a bug in their client or server. Either way, this is just much ado about nothing from people who should know better.
MS gets it coming and going on Slashdot, which gets tedious. Like this whole non-story.
In general, you are correct. However, it takes a different set of skills to be a sniper/scout or a forward air controller, then to be a ranger or seal. In fact, some of the best shots in the military are women. Physical fitness might be important for some missions, but intelligence (ability to think) is always going to be a necessity.
Look at what happened to the seals in Panama. They made some fundamentally wrong choices and paid the price.
I'm not re-interpreting anything. It is my interpretation. You seem to believe that there is a 'standard' interpretation somewhere. There isn't. There are a bunch of judges who hear arguments, usually but not always, based on previous precedents. Those judges re-interpret and add to those precedents all the time.
Lawyers are treated as the new priest class and judges are the high priests. In reality, they are the Wizards of Oz, sounding righteous and superior while hoping beyond hope that we don't peek behind the curtain.
I don't even own a gun even though I am a rifle/pistol expert 3rd award.
Here are some what ifs to consider:
What if the kid in the cart is a skin head and the old women is not white.
What if instead of an old woman, it is a mother/father with some little kids.
What if instead of an old woman doing the shooting, it is a security guard trying to protect her.
Yelling stop isn't going to stop the kart if the kids can't hear you cause they are yelling and screaming already.
---
There was a girl who baked some cookies. She decided to share them with her neighbors. This is in rural America, btw. She delivered them in the early evening. One of the houses she visited had an old lady who lived there. The old lady wasn't expecting any one to come by and didn't answer the door. The girl knocked harder, which only frightened the old lady more. Then the girl started peering in the windows and knocking on the glass.
Luckily, the old lady called the cops, but she would have been well within her rights to defend her property and her self, with deadly force if necessary. That's a right I will fight for. Idiots doing idiotic things for their own selfish interests and then claiming them as rights, they can go to hell.
"200 years of professional judicial interpretations"
Funny how 200 years of professional judicial interpretations has produced wildly different interpretations thru the years. Do you really think that all judges see the 4th ammendment the same way? How about any two random judges?
It's pathetic when people appeal to a higher power instead of an actual argument.
I'm not afraid for myself, I'm actually afraid for the kids pushing the karts and the grandma coming around the corner. Don't you think she would be afraid even a little bit? Could you honestly convict her of anything if she did act in self-defense? Should she break her hip so these moronic kids can continue to do moronic things and expect no repurcusions?
There was a bunch of base jumpers up in Yosemite protesting a ban on base jumping. The husband was being interviewed at the same time that his wife was doing a base jump. They were watching it and he was cheering her on. Her chute never opened. I mourn for her and her husband, but I don't have any pity for them.
Simple answer, actions have consequences beyond intentions.
The Marine Corps is pound for pound, dollar for dollar, the most effective war fighting instrument in the US arsenal. If the Army wanted a cheap, effective and rugged prototype for the wired soldier of the future, they should have just asked the Marines to develop it for them.
They probably spent more on this project then the Marines spend on R&D for a whole year.
He got $2 million dollars. Also, he didn't get convicted.
The 4th ammendment protects against unreasonable searches and seizures. I don't see anything in this case that is unreasonable. The FBI had a partial match, they investigated until the person who really matched was found. Then they released the guy. Then he got paid.
The "and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause" part is clearly seperate from the "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated" part. Yeah, I know that it has been interpreted differently, but then I can actually read.
What is unreasonable is that this guy got $2 million for something that happens all the time to people in the US and all over the globe. 14 days in jail?
There are chop shops in the US that will make any car you please. Never seen 'pimp my ride'?
This is not a case of society giving up any rights. You don't have the right to be above suspicion in you wifes suspicious death. You also don't have the right to be a moron with impunity.
Anyone see that cell phone add where a bunch of people doing different stuff all get an IM and rush off to some super market. They all act very suspicious and then do a cart race in the middle of the store. I think that ad should have a gun shot at the end. I know that will strike some of you as odd or bad, but what a stupid thing to advertise. "Use our products and scare the jeebus out of old people at a supermarket", seems to be an odd message.
I could see the defense lawyer now, "There was a cart coming at high speed down a narrow isle and lots of screaming... my client was afraid for their life and had no chance to withdraw from the situation." That's self-defense, pure and simple.
Same thing with the MIT chick and her play-dough performance art. I would mourn the death of a person in these situations, but I would still find the person responsible 'not guilty'.
"So I don't see why MS wouldn't intentionally taint open/free code with patent-encumbered code, under direction from management. It's only to their benefit."
Because it's open? Because everyone can look at it? Because it will probably have to be built using GNU tools and libraries?
I could go on. Sprint and Verizon didn't have to taint Vonage for them to have violated a patent.
"but their zealotry is confined to doing the right thing"
I'm sure there are many here on slashdot that would consider tainting Office or Exchange a right thing to do. MS is an Illegal Monopoly and opening up either of those two things would certainly be a boon for open/free land. That's why I think it is likely to happen.
Doing the right thing isn't hard. It's knowing what is right. Once you know something is right, doing it is easy.*
---
*Stolen from Ghandi -er- Ben Kingsley.
Their faction was Marine Grunts or something. They claimed to be stationed at Pendleton, don't remember which camp but they knew enough about the camp to convince me. For all I know they are still doing the same thing. It takes less then 5 minutes to do my turns and I'm only in it until I can afford the private island. That and hotgirl69.
I was in the Corps, which gives me the right to say anything I want about the Suck, including that it sucks.
Some of my favorite quotes:
"Every Marine is a qualified janitor first and foremost."
"Sir, the plan of the day! The plan of the day is all officers shall wear swords, all enlisted shall wear brooms and mops, carry on with the plan of the day!"
"I told Gunny that putting camoflage netting on a three story tower on top of a hill was a bad idea, so I got 3 days leave."
"A Master Sgt is just an alcoholic waiting to retire." -- Told to my Master Sgt
"I love being a Marine, but I hated being in the Marine Corps"
My brother wrote a book about the Marine Corps titled "The Marines or why they issue you vaseline at boot camp".
OOH RAH, to that brother-man.
I play Torn City, which doesn't have avatars, yet there are a lot of males pretending to be females. Believe me, when you find out hotgirl69 is really a 12 year old boy, you have to wonder if this is a good phenomenon. Try explaining to a judge and jury that it was only a game or your wife.
Then there is the faction of male US Marines who marry each other to live in a better house. I'm sure their Gunny will just take their word for it that it's only a game, as well as their fellow grunts. Right or wrong, that would get you thrown down a flight of stairs in my day.
Eventually they will ask for protection on the desktop. Before everyone starts calling me a dunce or troll, I understand how impossible that will be. I'm just saying that they will eventually ask for some sort of legal remedy to suppress peoples ability to circumvent their copyrights. I'm pretty sure that the congress will give it to them.
If it can happen in Germany, sigh...
Expect to receive a letter from "ebay" or "pay-pal" even if you really weren't one of the 1200.
Seriously, if you know anyone who uses ebay, let them know that email is not verified as regards the sender. My wife uses ebay on my account and I get phishing attacks thru ebay and paypal all the time. I'm sure this breach(?) will only make those phishing attacks more common and more effective.
Not trying to pick a fight, but the open/free community is certainly not without its ethically challenged members.
I think it is entirely possible that we will see GPLv3 code maliciously added to non-GPL code with the express purpose of tainting it. I seriously doubt that MS employees have the same zealotry that the open/free community has. After all, most MS employees are probably only there for the pay check. You definately can't say the same thing about the open/free crowd.
Thanks for the responses, I really didn't know. I'll continue to legally take header files and structures that implement standards, as there is no copyright protection for them, irregardless of the license. I'll also continue to report bugs and bug fixes to the projects that I have to interract with, irregardless of the license.
Got to keep protecting the 5th freedom, which is to not give a damn.
Couldn't agree more with you about Gould. One of the great things he does is weave his own fascination into the science. Some of my favorite articles by him are about non-startling science, such as discovering 'Stasis' in Greece. I was too young to have made the connection when I lived there.
His article about 'the myth of a flat earth' is frankly brilliant and his conclusion of why the myth developed such a strong following is dead on (especially here on slashdot where accusing some one of believing in a flat earth is the height of witticism).
My advice if you really want to report science to the masses is to not dumb it down and don't try to sensationalize it. Your audience is already interested or they wouldn't have started reading it in the first place.
It's more likely that a patent infringement would be added unwittingly by a third (or fourth) party. The GPLv3 does what it can, but it can't magically give immunity from patent infringement. Well, except for the case you outlined which is probably the least likely to occur.
Still, SAMBA!
I think this attitude is why so many developers are turned off by the GPLv3.
Is there a clause in the GPLv3 that makes the "or later" mandatory? If that's the case, might as well sign it all over to the FSF or better yet just put "This software is released in whatever manner RMS decides at any time now or in the future".
Still, I wonder about the legality of enforcing a license that doesn't exist or didn't exist when you first got the source. "This software is released under a future license which we will let you know about when we get around to it" doesn't sound very legal.
You posted this...
"However, as I pointed out, the AG didn't sign that piece of paper authorizing whatever the NSA is doing now, which would say something like 'Under penalty of perjury I certify that this is tap is on non-citizens to the best of my knowledge'."
And now this...
"He's not asserting that. We already figured that out. He's not stupid enough to risk perjury charges, and, more to the point, that wouldn't allow the administration to install spy equipment inside the telecoms."
"This lawbreaking didn't have anything to do with the non-citizen authorization the AG can make, that's a stupid red herring."
Which you brought up, btw.
Asserting a reason for a tap and guaranteeing that the tap is of non-US-citizens only, are two completely different things. I'm not even saying that it is not how you describe. Maybe the AG does assert something in his authorization, I'm saying it is stupid to do so.
I assert you will not respond in a stupid manner to this post. See, I can't guarantee that, can I.
I assert that the phone we are tapping will never be used either by a US citizen or used to call a US citizen. See, you can't guarantee that either. No one can. Maybe he is asserting it. If he is, he probably shouldn't be the AG.
Anywhile, this is mostly a moot point since the law has since been amended and the congress is going to give the telcos immunity. Feel free to keep whining about it though. It's never a good idea to let these things fester.