He could sell you the binaries, and force you to send him a letter with $10 S+H to get a floppy disk containing the code.
Hmmm...that brings up an interesting question. Could he charge, say $1 Million for the source floppy, effectively prohibiting anyone from getting the source code and sharing it out in the first place?
In Design and Evolution of C++ he gives very specific reasons why garbage collection is optional.
That is absolutely the book to read before asking Bjarne questions. (Yes, I realize this is not practical for everyone). It's a great book to read since it not only goes into some of the finer points of the C++ language, but it discusses the reasons behind the design decisions. Its an excellent book.
I think you are completely wrongheaded about this. Work ethic has nothing to do with putting up with irritating flames from every story submitter who feels that a rejection is a personal afront. And if you think Rob brought/. this far without work ethic...well...that just doesn't make any sense.
And to be perfectly honest, the extent of the "customer service" required for a site like slashdot is posting stories relevent to most readers and keeping the site online.
You seem to confuse business models here. McDonalds requires you to deal directly with customers and in doing so, be nice to everyone who comes in. Slashdot does not. To reiterate, Rob's job is to a) Keep the site running properly. and b) Post relevant stories.
Notice I didn't include C) Kiss the ass of people who get upset because the story they submitted was rejected.
I have, but not the released version. I was working on the MS Campus until the beginning of the year. For most builds I installed, Win2000 was about as stable as WinNT. What that basically means is that Win2000 was less reliable than Linux, and more reliable than Win9x. I will be picking up a copy simply so I can dump the crappy Win9x I have on my system for playing games. As far as my personal opinion goes. WinNT and 2000 make crappy servers. Really crappy servers. But it makes a pretty nice personal OS. The problem with NT as a personal OS was it's lack of support for things such as DirectX 7 and USB. Windows 2000 solves that. Windows 2000 also makes it obnoxiously difficult to screw up your system directories. So I would say, for home users not willing to make the jump to Linux yet, they should absolutely go for Windows 2000. After all, it can't be any worse than 9x.
(Shrug) I've lost all faith in the intelligence of moderators since the time I posted a humorous reply to a troll. I had disabled the karma bonus but some dumb ass moderator marked it as "flamebait". So I got pissed and posted two messages swearing up a storm at moderators, I kept the +1 bonus for both messages and the content could be boiled down to "fuck you moderators". Neither was moderated down from a two score. Bloody worthless if you ask me.
The argument could be made that, by making the story directly compilable, you've crossed the line into "machine instructions" with interspersed comments. Doing it this way just muddies the line even more, since you cannot directly compile this.
As you point out in your post, your story is--it can be run through a Perl script and then compiled--and thus fails the test.
Actually, if you were to run it through the Perl script in question, it would not compile. Human intervention would be required in order to get a compilable file.
This brings up another muddy area. This story shows just how fuzzy the line is. In order for this to be compilable machine instructions, you not only have to run it through a perl script, but you have to manually make changes to the output of the script. You also must have another file present.
Where is the line? Who knows!
Another point: If you told the typical man on the street that you were being legally enjoined from distributing a computer program, I suspect the typical response would be, "so? That's piracy, right?". When you frame it within a story like this, it's easier for someone with no knowledge of computers to relate.
Pass out paper copies, announcing to each person you give the story to, "I may be breaking the law by giving you this story on this piece of paper. It contains a secret that the movie industry does not want you to see."
Yes, I realize this is a legal grey area, but I was just trying to illustrate a point.
I know it needs to be word wrapped and spell checked, and I'm not even positive that there are no errant single quotes. (Writing without contractions is hard).
Everyone: Feel free to correct, improve, or update the story. I spent very little time making it, and there is much room for improvement in all areas, including plot and style!
I got to thinking. If fiction is protected speech, and source code may not be, what if you combined the two. So here is a story about two intrepid programmers, Dick and Jane.
Feel free to distribute this or run it through any Perl scripts you have lying around.
Though it's great news that the corporate world is embracing free software, it's important to note that this is a pre-alpha release. It barely reads. About all you can do right now is mkfs, mount/unmount, and ls. So no, I don't think Debian will be intergrating this into their kernel yet.:)
Thank you. That's the sort of comment I enjoy responding to. If you want to continue this discussion, e-mail me. I'd be glad to discuss your points with you.
You talked about "strongly typed languages". Not language that are stronger typed than Perl. If you are referring to something different than I am, what do you mean by strongly typed languages then?
The context of the discussion was Perl, I was referring to languages that are strongly typed relative to Perl. I thought I had clarified that in my first response to you. Sorry. What it comes down to is this: Do you agree that C and C++ are both more strongly typed than Perl? If so, there's nothing to argue about. If not, we differ on a fundamental point and there's no point in going any further.
My second question was "What about arrays?" after your remark "don't get me started on Perl arrays". Your broad statement about your experienced lack of structure in Perl doesn't address arrays at all. Hence, it doesn't answer the question, it's just a flamebait.
Your initial comment was: What about them? At least Perl has arrays, unlike popular languages like C, which just has monsters that try to look like arrays.
I wasn't sure what that meant. An array is a list of values addressable by a subscript, ie foo[1]. I simply don't understand what you mean by "monsters that try to look like arrays". You seemed offended by my apparent dislike of Perl arrays, so I backed off and made a more broad statement which I felt explained my perceived problem with Perl, arrays included. I was trying to quickly and succinctly summarize my viewpoint. Let me try again:
Arrays in Perl are used to hold data structures. While this makes things quick and easy, I don't think arrays have enough structure for a beginning programmer. While C structs allow you to defeat the structure, you at least have the option of defining a rigid structure and having the compiler enforce it.
If there's any trolling going on, it's you doing it.
Personally, I don't think statements of opinion with earnest attempts to explain the reasoning behind the opinion constitute trolls. I do perceive a statement like:
At least Perl has arrays, unlike popular languages like C, which just has monsters that try to look like arrays.
to be a troll. I don't see how my posts can be seen as trolls. They may be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time) but they don't have some key characteristics of flamebait:
A. Make value judgements. I didn't say that Perl's lack of structure was bad. I simply stated that Perl lacks structure, which makes it unsuitable, in my opinion, for a learning language.
B. Purposefully represent statements of opinion as fact. Again, I may be wrong, but that doesn't constitute flamebait.
My initial response to you was hostile. Why? Because your initial post to me was hostile. Your initial comments to me gave me the impression that you think I'm wrong without explaining your position. Furthermore, their tone conveys arrogance and superiority ("I know something you don't"). If that is true, enlighten me. But don't turn open dialog into one sided interrogation. It's not very nice.
Look, I'm not going to be lured into a pissing contest over which language is better, but I will say a couple things.
When one talks about strong typing vs weak typing, one isn't referring to an on/off switch. There is a whole spectrum of relative strength. I hope everyone agrees that C is more strongly typed than Perl. I would also submit that C++ is more strongly typed than C. Your first question is meaningless since you are referring to something different than I.
As far as the second question goes, I'm just going to make this broad statement: Perl lacks the structure that I feel is necessary for large scale development projects. I also feel that this lack of structure is an impediment to learning good programming methodology.
I will say one more thing. I use Perl on a daily basis. I use Perl as often as I use C or C++. I still stand by my statement that Perl isn't a very good language for someone just learning to program. It will take more than trolls to get me to change my mind.
I don't know where you are renting an apartment, but without a credit history, you are hard pressed to find one here in Seattle. If you are here on an H1, usually your company will help. If not, it's tough, and if you're not white, it's damn near impossible.
I find the state of affairs in the US regarding immigration to be appalling. The hippocracy and thinly veiled racism boggles the mind. I hear these people spout this protectionist crap and I think, "just where the hell do you think you came from?" It's the same story. First Irish, Asian, or Hispanic. And it's all bullshit. I know people affected by layoffs by a well known company last year. These are people who write compilers, a rather specialized skill. Their H1B didn't have enough time left on it, so no company would touch them. If you get laid off on H1B you have 10 days to find a new job or get out of the country.
Consider the following:
You have 6 years with H1-B. During those 6 years you are stuck with the same company for all intents and purposes, since it is difficult to get picked up by a different company. It becomes more difficult as time goes on. After 5 years of working for the company, basically on their terms, they hit some trouble and lay you off. They were sponsoring you for a green card, but that hadn't gone through (remember, it takes around 3 years to process the things). Now, that all gets dropped because the company working on it has just laid you off. You've only got 1 year left in the country, so no other company is going to touch you. So what happens? That's right, 10 days to leave the country.
Sorry, you're right. Most Perl programmers I've run into are level headed people smart enough to know when a language like Perl can save them a lot of grief. I was refering to the "other" Perl programmers. Lots of C programmers have the same ridiculous bone-headedness.
Perl has only 3 types: Scalars, arrays (of scalars) and hashes (of scalars).
Want proof? From Programming Perl: Perl has three basic data types: scalars, arrays of scalars, and hashes of scalars, also known as associative arrays.
A scalar encompases anything from a a floating point value to a string. It doesn't matter that there are distinct types under the hood, since from a Perl programmers perspective, there is only the scalar.
Can you give me a reference? I'm really not being obstinate, I have a genuine interest in studying the good and bad points of various languages and I'd be fascinated to read a comparison from a Java expert's perspective.
And as a side note, I didn't mean to imply that Java is better or worse than C. Far from it. However, I'm reluctant to point a beginner to Java as a learning language.
I actually like Code Complete better. Written by Steve McConnell, who is a veritable font of programming wisdom for both developers in the trenches and project managers. Though both books are well worth it.
Slashdot Mirror
He could sell you the binaries, and force you to send him a letter with $10 S+H to get a floppy disk containing the code.
Hmmm...that brings up an interesting question. Could he charge, say $1 Million for the source floppy, effectively prohibiting anyone from getting the source code and sharing it out in the first place?
--GnrcMan--
In Design and Evolution of C++ he gives very specific reasons why garbage collection is optional.
That is absolutely the book to read before asking Bjarne questions. (Yes, I realize this is not practical for everyone). It's a great book to read since it not only goes into some of the finer points of the C++ language, but it discusses the reasons behind the design decisions. Its an excellent book.
Casey
--GnrcMan--
I think you are completely wrongheaded about this. Work ethic has nothing to do with putting up with irritating flames from every story submitter who feels that a rejection is a personal afront. And if you think Rob brought /. this far without work ethic...well...that just doesn't make any sense.
And to be perfectly honest, the extent of the "customer service" required for a site like slashdot is posting stories relevent to most readers and keeping the site online.
You seem to confuse business models here. McDonalds requires you to deal directly with customers and in doing so, be nice to everyone who comes in. Slashdot does not. To reiterate, Rob's job is to a) Keep the site running properly. and b) Post relevant stories.
Notice I didn't include C) Kiss the ass of people who get upset because the story they submitted was rejected.
We don't pay members of the press to be nice.
--GnrcMan--
I actually subscribe to the tree-killing version, believe it or not.
--GnrcMan--
I have, but not the released version.
I was working on the MS Campus until the beginning of the year. For most builds I installed, Win2000 was about as stable as WinNT. What that basically means is that Win2000 was less reliable than Linux, and more reliable than Win9x. I will be picking up a copy simply so I can dump the crappy Win9x I have on my system for playing games.
As far as my personal opinion goes. WinNT and 2000 make crappy servers. Really crappy servers. But it makes a pretty nice personal OS. The problem with NT as a personal OS was it's lack of support for things such as DirectX 7 and USB. Windows 2000 solves that. Windows 2000 also makes it obnoxiously difficult to screw up your system directories. So I would say, for home users not willing to make the jump to Linux yet, they should absolutely go for Windows 2000. After all, it can't be any worse than 9x.
--GnrcMan--
(Shrug) I've lost all faith in the intelligence of moderators since the time I posted a humorous reply to a troll. I had disabled the karma bonus but some dumb ass moderator marked it as "flamebait". So I got pissed and posted two messages swearing up a storm at moderators, I kept the +1 bonus for both messages and the content could be boiled down to "fuck you moderators". Neither was moderated down from a two score. Bloody worthless if you ask me.
--GnrcMan--
I added a note to the beginning explicitly licencing the story under the GPL 2.
--GnrcMan--
The argument could be made that, by making the story directly compilable, you've crossed the line into "machine instructions" with interspersed comments.
Doing it this way just muddies the line even more, since you cannot directly compile this.
--GnrcMan--
Imbed it in the complaint filed by the CCA. :)
--GnrcMan--
As you point out in your post,
your story is--it can be run through a Perl script and then compiled--and thus fails the test.
Actually, if you were to run it through the Perl script in question, it would not compile. Human intervention would be required in order to get a compilable file.
This brings up another muddy area. This story shows just how fuzzy the line is. In order for this to be compilable machine instructions, you not only have to run it through a perl script, but you have to manually make changes to the output of the script. You also must have another file present.
Where is the line? Who knows!
Another point: If you told the typical man on the street that you were being legally enjoined from distributing a computer program, I suspect the typical response would be, "so? That's piracy, right?". When you frame it within a story like this, it's easier for someone with no knowledge of computers to relate.
Pass out paper copies, announcing to each person you give the story to, "I may be breaking the law by giving you this story on this piece of paper. It contains a secret that the movie industry does not want you to see."
--GnrcMan--
Cool, I'm curious, does it strip properly? I haven't had a chance to check.
--GnrcMan--
Yes, I realize this is a legal grey area, but I was just trying to illustrate a point.
I know it needs to be word wrapped and spell checked, and I'm not even positive that there are no errant single quotes. (Writing without contractions is hard).
Everyone: Feel free to correct, improve, or update the story. I spent very little time making it, and there is much room for improvement in all areas, including plot and style!
--GnrcMan--
I got to thinking. If fiction is protected speech, and source code may not be, what if you combined the two. So here is a story about two intrepid programmers, Dick and Jane.
Feel free to distribute this or run it through any Perl scripts you have lying around.
--GnrcMan--
One of the problems is that in order to get a licence, you must sign a NDA. A licenced DVD player could not be open sourced.
--GnrcMan--
Though it's great news that the corporate world is embracing free software, it's important to note that this is a pre-alpha release. It barely reads. About all you can do right now is mkfs, mount/unmount, and ls. So no, I don't think Debian will be intergrating this into their kernel yet. :)
--GnrcMan--
Thank you. That's the sort of comment I enjoy responding to. If you want to continue this discussion, e-mail me. I'd be glad to discuss your points with you.
Casey
--GnrcMan--
You talked about "strongly typed languages". Not language that are stronger typed than Perl. If you are referring to something different than I am,
what do you mean by strongly typed languages then?
The context of the discussion was Perl, I was referring to languages that are strongly typed relative to Perl. I thought I had clarified that in my first response to you. Sorry.
What it comes down to is this: Do you agree that C and C++ are both more strongly typed than Perl? If so, there's nothing to argue about. If not, we differ on a fundamental point and there's no point in going any further.
My second question was "What about arrays?" after your remark "don't get me started on Perl arrays". Your broad statement about your experienced
lack of structure in Perl doesn't address arrays at all. Hence, it doesn't answer the question, it's just a flamebait.
Your initial comment was:
What about them? At least Perl has arrays, unlike popular languages like C, which just has monsters that try to look like arrays.
I wasn't sure what that meant. An array is a list of values addressable by a subscript, ie foo[1]. I simply don't understand what you mean by "monsters that try to look like arrays". You seemed offended by my apparent dislike of Perl arrays, so I backed off and made a more broad statement which I felt explained my perceived problem with Perl, arrays included. I was trying to quickly and succinctly summarize my viewpoint. Let me try again:
Arrays in Perl are used to hold data structures. While this makes things quick and easy, I don't think arrays have enough structure for a beginning programmer. While C structs allow you to defeat the structure, you at least have the option of defining a rigid structure and having the compiler enforce it.
If there's any trolling going on, it's you doing it.
Personally, I don't think statements of opinion with earnest attempts to explain the reasoning behind the opinion constitute trolls. I do perceive a statement like:
At least Perl has arrays, unlike popular languages like C, which just has monsters that try to look like arrays.
to be a troll.
I don't see how my posts can be seen as trolls. They may be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time) but they don't have some key characteristics of flamebait:
A. Make value judgements. I didn't say that Perl's lack of structure was bad. I simply stated that Perl lacks structure, which makes it unsuitable, in my opinion, for a learning language.
B. Purposefully represent statements of opinion as fact. Again, I may be wrong, but that doesn't constitute flamebait.
My initial response to you was hostile. Why? Because your initial post to me was hostile. Your initial comments to me gave me the impression that you think I'm wrong without explaining your position. Furthermore, their tone conveys arrogance and superiority ("I know something you don't"). If that is true, enlighten me. But don't turn open dialog into one sided interrogation. It's not very nice.
--GnrcMan--
Look, I'm not going to be lured into a pissing contest over which language is better, but I will say a couple things.
When one talks about strong typing vs weak typing, one isn't referring to an on/off switch. There is a whole spectrum of relative strength. I hope everyone agrees that C is more strongly typed than Perl. I would also submit that C++ is more strongly typed than C. Your first question is meaningless since you are referring to something different than I.
As far as the second question goes, I'm just going to make this broad statement:
Perl lacks the structure that I feel is necessary for large scale development projects. I also feel that this lack of structure is an impediment to learning good programming methodology.
I will say one more thing. I use Perl on a daily basis. I use Perl as often as I use C or C++. I still stand by my statement that Perl isn't a very good language for someone just learning to program. It will take more than trolls to get me to change my mind.
Casey
--GnrcMan--
Overrated? Could be. That's an opinion. Offtopic? No.
--GnrcMan--
I don't know where you are renting an apartment, but without a credit history, you are hard pressed to find one here in Seattle. If you are here on an H1, usually your company will help. If not, it's tough, and if you're not white, it's damn near impossible.
--GnrcMan--
I find the state of affairs in the US regarding immigration to be appalling. The hippocracy and thinly veiled racism boggles the mind. I hear these people spout this protectionist crap and I think, "just where the hell do you think you came from?" It's the same story. First Irish, Asian, or Hispanic. And it's all bullshit.
I know people affected by layoffs by a well known company last year. These are people who write compilers, a rather specialized skill. Their H1B didn't have enough time left on it, so no company would touch them. If you get laid off on H1B you have 10 days to find a new job or get out of the country.
Consider the following:
You have 6 years with H1-B. During those 6 years you are stuck with the same company for all intents and purposes, since it is difficult to get picked up by a different company. It becomes more difficult as time goes on.
After 5 years of working for the company, basically on their terms, they hit some trouble and lay you off. They were sponsoring you for a green card, but that hadn't gone through (remember, it takes around 3 years to process the things). Now, that all gets dropped because the company working on it has just laid you off. You've only got 1 year left in the country, so no other company is going to touch you. So what happens? That's right, 10 days to leave the country.
It makes me sick.
--GnrcMan--
Sorry, you're right. Most Perl programmers I've run into are level headed people smart enough to know when a language like Perl can save them a lot of grief. I was refering to the "other" Perl programmers. Lots of C programmers have the same ridiculous bone-headedness.
--GnrcMan--
Perl has only 3 types: Scalars, arrays (of scalars) and hashes (of scalars).
Want proof? From Programming Perl:
Perl has three basic data types: scalars, arrays of scalars, and hashes of scalars, also known as associative arrays.
A scalar encompases anything from a a floating point value to a string. It doesn't matter that there are distinct types under the hood, since from a Perl programmers perspective, there is only the scalar.
--GnrcMan--
C++ has flaws, according to the Java journals.
Can you give me a reference? I'm really not being obstinate, I have a genuine interest in studying the good and bad points of various languages and I'd be fascinated to read a comparison from a Java expert's perspective.
And as a side note, I didn't mean to imply that Java is better or worse than C. Far from it. However, I'm reluctant to point a beginner to Java as a learning language.
--GnrcMan--
I actually like Code Complete better. Written by Steve McConnell, who is a veritable font of programming wisdom for both developers in the trenches and project managers. Though both books are well worth it.
--GnrcMan--