That's just silly. Wake up. Java is the biggest thing out there. Just look out into the enterprise and see who has the biggest market share. Simple.
And as for fragmentation. Just look at Linux. Quick, how many different and incompatible versions of Linux can you name? (ps, I use Linux) Fragmentation is not because of closed products, it's because of big egos in the developer communities who do not want to fix what's out there because they think their stuff is better. All I know, Java is semi-open source. It works well and it does not need to be GPL. Where as I see plenty of open source stuff which is not finished. I don't care if its GPL, if its broke, its broke.
Well, first, there is a Linux 86_64 JVM, I'm running it right now.
And as for other JVM's. What I really meant is that I don't have to worry about other JVM's. JVM's have to certify with Sun by using Sun tests. This makes sure that I'm not impacted. Face it, Java is already open source and it does not need to be GPL (or the likes).
I'm really tired of people railing on Sun for not open sourcing Java. Leave Sun and Java out of it. Its semi-open source and it works! No fragmentation. Works on multiple platforms. What else do you want? You want a fully open source language? Use Python. One of the things I absolutely love about Java is that there is One Java. One JVM (that anyone really needs). I don't have to deal with many different JVM's with different problems. Simply this, look at Linux, its good and all, but its 80% done and will never be done. I don't want that to happen to Java too. Simply, leave my Java alone.
Truly, even through I hate MS with a passion, I applaud Gates for spending so much of his personal wealth on such causes. At the end of the day, he does not have to do this, but yet he does. No matter how "Evil" MS is, those who benefit from his philanthropy are better off with Gates than with out.
More talking to his source in front of the Saudi embassy, asking how much Saudi's have invested in us. The guy says, "I've heard figures as high as 870 billion". Moore what part is that of our stock market, and the guy quotes about 6-7%. In the next footage more narrates, "These people own 7% of the country..." Now does anyone see a problem here? This is classical brain washing. First the initial figure is hear say, "I've heard" is not a fact, no matter how much you dislike Bush. Then he quotes 6-7% of the stock market is Saudi! BULLSHIT! Look it up, even Yahoo will tell you this one. But now he says that they own 7% of our economy! Economy!=Stock Market! Also, I thought it was 6-7%, not just 7%! It's a classical 'raze the stakes' while no one is paying attention. Amazing bullshit. He should run for office!
You had to go to a movie theater for that? How about newspapers and books? That's why Americans are pissed, they are out of the loop and now need some one to blame for that. A sleep at the wheel is more like it.
I've seen this done before. He's good at what he does, leading the angry masses. No hard facts, no other view, just propaganda. I have no love for current administration, but I do not stand for lies, half-truths and brain washing! Simply pisses me off. We deserve what we get if we so blindly follow.
BTW, with regard to all the terrorist attack warnings that are coming out of Washington. Before 9/11 Washington said nothing, and we were pissed about that and demanded to know. Now they tell us everything, and we are still pissed because we don't want to know. What people really want is some one to hang for this whole thing and forget about it, so we decide to hang our own because it is easier and more convenient. I see more compassion for terrorists then our own leaders. Not that simple, is it now.
In Soviet Russia, propaganda has YOU! Been there done that, will not stand for it here.
Would someone please explain to me why Sun Java VM can not be included in a Linux distro? Is because you can't modify it for commercial use? Then what is wrong with putting it in as it is? Why exactly do we need an OSS version of Java if the JCP is in charge of changes in Java? I think that its good that there is only one variation of the Java VM/language. Isn't that what we want in a platform, stability?
I don't believe that OSS is a big danger to our jobs through, since it thrives on large number of programmers to contribute. It becomes sort of self regulating. If too much OSS is written, programmers drop off in numbers for the lack of jobs/opportunity (they still need to eat and that costs money) and that leads to less OSS programmers which slows down OSS work. Circular. Now outsourcing is a one way street. I cant compete with someone who is willing to work for 1/3 of my salary. I'd have to live out of a box for that. But that's for a different thread.
He is right to some extent. I am a young programmer (22) and I write proprietary stuff. I try pushing some OSS products when I can. But I understand very well that with out the proprietary work that I do, I would not be able to do the things that I enjoy. I like going out with friends and being able to pay for drinks. I like being able to take a girl out and not go broke. I want to be able to buy that new and shiny processor. Materialistic? Hell yes, but that's life. I am not some monk! So I think this man is right, almost. I think that OSS and proprietary software can live together. OSS does extremely well for the general stuff and ninch stuff that corporate types ignore. Proprietary has its place too. Inter-company software belongs in this world. Systems that run corporate data. So on and so on.
I understand one thing. If most programming would become OSS, most programmers will have to find other jobs to sustain their lives, since food, shelter and recreation is not free.
Now I just hope my job does not get outsourced...
I completely agree with this. I have been programming for such a long time now, that I don't even dare to remember. Now I work full time as, guess what, a programmer. Anyhow, being constantly pissed of with windows, I'd love to use Linux as my primary OS. But, certain things are just ridiculously complicated, and I don't have the hours that one needs to kill to learn and configure the system properly. (apt4rpm and freshrpms are a great help when it comes to keeping up to date on software) How difficult it was to access SMB shares and configuring my wireless cards... But, I got to admit, its getting better. I have been trying linux on and off for 5 years now, and I like the improvement. I am set solid on Fedora Core 1 for now, but it still needs a lot of work before it is fully usable. I should not need to be a 'techie' to use a system, but having an ability to do that IF YOU WANT TO is good. A little thought could take this a long way.
Tell me this. What would stop MS from shipping a version of Java that it calls, lets say 'Java Lite'. Now what MS would do is simplify it by stripping all the 'extra' features. Of course it distributes it back to the community as GPL. Now, what you have is 90% of user computers running a crippled version of Java and there is nothing you or the GPL license can do about it.
I like the fact that there is only 1 Java and it works for me (nearly perfectly) everywhere. I am happy enough with the JCP (Java Community Process). I am a Java developer and I am happy! Leave it (me) be!
How does this contradict my views? I realize there are some problems with Java as Sun has it, but I can point out problems with other languages too. The loss of control is the problem. Re read my post after you cool off, and you will see what I am trying to say.
And by the way, I hope English is not your first language, since you have horrible grammar. So do your homework read and proofread.
MS wanted to own/kill Java for a long time. IBM wants to have control over Java. Now lets say Java goes free. 20 different not entirely compatible VMs are created. (How many similar but not entirely compatible GNU/Linux distros do we have:) MS creates a JVM (very crippled since now they have.Net and fair competition is a no-no) lets call JavaDOA.Net and release it with winXP 'Screw you and you'll like it' edition. EOL the old versions and that's it. No more Java. A good, object oriented, standard, extremely well documented, nearly write once run anywhere language goes the way of the Dodo. Is that really what we want? Java is a community process language. The community participates heavily. The only difference from truly 'Free' is that Sun can tell the likes of M$ to shove-it (as they did before). They keep the JVM standard and compatible! Thank your respective deity that Java is not 'entirely free'. Java is a good example of free for you and stable for me. If you cant see it, go port some 'standard' C++ code between windows and *nix(s), and we will talk again when you are done going bald. Not every peace of software has to be entirely 'Free'.
This may be a good thing in the long run. Since Novel will have a 'very strong' influence on Gnome development and on KDE development through SuSE, they may be able to bring the two desktops closer together. Maybe we will see closer interoperability? Or at least Evolution client that is ported to QT.
Lets leave the desktop wars for a minute here. Most users of SuSE Linux are KDE users, since that was the main desktop environment of SuSE. Also SuSE is a European distribution, and in Europe the tendency is to use KDE (German homegrown). (Mandrake, another big European distribution, French to be exact, also uses KDE as a main desktop) So a move by Novel from KDE to Gnome might upset more then a few hardcore fans.
... how this is going to fly. SuSE is a German company which uses KDE predominantly. Since Novel bought Ximian and with it GNome development... Anyone has any thoughts on what is to follow?
Quoting:
Information Rights Management (IRM) tools will be included in the professional versions of all Office applications, including the Word processor and Excel spreadsheet programs.
To use IRM features, businesses will need a server running Microsoft's Windows Server 2003 operating system and Windows Rights Management Services software.
So I guess that for the time being its not a default, but I can see some internet based services springing up to provide internet wide access permissions, if this ever becomes big.
Slashdot Mirror
I'm running JRun on it, works well.
You're right, non there. But what's stopping people from creating one? Nothing that I see.
That's just silly. Wake up. Java is the biggest thing out there. Just look out into the enterprise and see who has the biggest market share. Simple. And as for fragmentation. Just look at Linux. Quick, how many different and incompatible versions of Linux can you name? (ps, I use Linux) Fragmentation is not because of closed products, it's because of big egos in the developer communities who do not want to fix what's out there because they think their stuff is better. All I know, Java is semi-open source. It works well and it does not need to be GPL. Where as I see plenty of open source stuff which is not finished. I don't care if its GPL, if its broke, its broke.
Well, first, there is a Linux 86_64 JVM, I'm running it right now.
And as for other JVM's. What I really meant is that I don't have to worry about other JVM's. JVM's have to certify with Sun by using Sun tests. This makes sure that I'm not impacted. Face it, Java is already open source and it does not need to be GPL (or the likes).
I'm really tired of people railing on Sun for not open sourcing Java. Leave Sun and Java out of it. Its semi-open source and it works! No fragmentation. Works on multiple platforms. What else do you want? You want a fully open source language? Use Python. One of the things I absolutely love about Java is that there is One Java. One JVM (that anyone really needs). I don't have to deal with many different JVM's with different problems. Simply this, look at Linux, its good and all, but its 80% done and will never be done. I don't want that to happen to Java too. Simply, leave my Java alone.
Truly, even through I hate MS with a passion, I applaud Gates for spending so much of his personal wealth on such causes. At the end of the day, he does not have to do this, but yet he does. No matter how "Evil" MS is, those who benefit from his philanthropy are better off with Gates than with out.
I'll be crossing over to the dark side. MBA here I come. I think I hate myself now...
More talking to his source in front of the Saudi embassy, asking how much Saudi's have invested in us. The guy says, "I've heard figures as high as 870 billion". Moore what part is that of our stock market, and the guy quotes about 6-7%. In the next footage more narrates, "These people own 7% of the country..." Now does anyone see a problem here? This is classical brain washing. First the initial figure is hear say, "I've heard" is not a fact, no matter how much you dislike Bush. Then he quotes 6-7% of the stock market is Saudi! BULLSHIT! Look it up, even Yahoo will tell you this one. But now he says that they own 7% of our economy! Economy!=Stock Market! Also, I thought it was 6-7%, not just 7%! It's a classical 'raze the stakes' while no one is paying attention. Amazing bullshit. He should run for office!
Half-Truth=Half Lie!
You had to go to a movie theater for that? How about newspapers and books? That's why Americans are pissed, they are out of the loop and now need some one to blame for that. A sleep at the wheel is more like it.
I've seen this done before. He's good at what he does, leading the angry masses. No hard facts, no other view, just propaganda. I have no love for current administration, but I do not stand for lies, half-truths and brain washing! Simply pisses me off. We deserve what we get if we so blindly follow. BTW, with regard to all the terrorist attack warnings that are coming out of Washington. Before 9/11 Washington said nothing, and we were pissed about that and demanded to know. Now they tell us everything, and we are still pissed because we don't want to know. What people really want is some one to hang for this whole thing and forget about it, so we decide to hang our own because it is easier and more convenient. I see more compassion for terrorists then our own leaders. Not that simple, is it now. In Soviet Russia, propaganda has YOU! Been there done that, will not stand for it here.
Why exactly can't sun JVM be attached to Linux? Also, if Sun VM gets OSS'ed what will keep Java standard? What will stop it from forking in 20 ways?
Would someone please explain to me why Sun Java VM can not be included in a Linux distro? Is because you can't modify it for commercial use? Then what is wrong with putting it in as it is? Why exactly do we need an OSS version of Java if the JCP is in charge of changes in Java? I think that its good that there is only one variation of the Java VM/language. Isn't that what we want in a platform, stability?
I don't believe that OSS is a big danger to our jobs through, since it thrives on large number of programmers to contribute. It becomes sort of self regulating. If too much OSS is written, programmers drop off in numbers for the lack of jobs/opportunity (they still need to eat and that costs money) and that leads to less OSS programmers which slows down OSS work. Circular. Now outsourcing is a one way street. I cant compete with someone who is willing to work for 1/3 of my salary. I'd have to live out of a box for that. But that's for a different thread.
He is right to some extent. I am a young programmer (22) and I write proprietary stuff. I try pushing some OSS products when I can. But I understand very well that with out the proprietary work that I do, I would not be able to do the things that I enjoy. I like going out with friends and being able to pay for drinks. I like being able to take a girl out and not go broke. I want to be able to buy that new and shiny processor. Materialistic? Hell yes, but that's life. I am not some monk! So I think this man is right, almost. I think that OSS and proprietary software can live together. OSS does extremely well for the general stuff and ninch stuff that corporate types ignore. Proprietary has its place too. Inter-company software belongs in this world. Systems that run corporate data. So on and so on. I understand one thing. If most programming would become OSS, most programmers will have to find other jobs to sustain their lives, since food, shelter and recreation is not free. Now I just hope my job does not get outsourced...
I completely agree with this. I have been programming for such a long time now, that I don't even dare to remember. Now I work full time as, guess what, a programmer. Anyhow, being constantly pissed of with windows, I'd love to use Linux as my primary OS. But, certain things are just ridiculously complicated, and I don't have the hours that one needs to kill to learn and configure the system properly. (apt4rpm and freshrpms are a great help when it comes to keeping up to date on software) How difficult it was to access SMB shares and configuring my wireless cards... But, I got to admit, its getting better. I have been trying linux on and off for 5 years now, and I like the improvement. I am set solid on Fedora Core 1 for now, but it still needs a lot of work before it is fully usable. I should not need to be a 'techie' to use a system, but having an ability to do that IF YOU WANT TO is good. A little thought could take this a long way.
Tell me this. What would stop MS from shipping a version of Java that it calls, lets say 'Java Lite'. Now what MS would do is simplify it by stripping all the 'extra' features. Of course it distributes it back to the community as GPL. Now, what you have is 90% of user computers running a crippled version of Java and there is nothing you or the GPL license can do about it. I like the fact that there is only 1 Java and it works for me (nearly perfectly) everywhere. I am happy enough with the JCP (Java Community Process). I am a Java developer and I am happy! Leave it (me) be!
np :)
If anyone from Intel is reading this thread, thanks! Conpetibility is important to me, code/end user.
How does this contradict my views? I realize there are some problems with Java as Sun has it, but I can point out problems with other languages too. The loss of control is the problem. Re read my post after you cool off, and you will see what I am trying to say. And by the way, I hope English is not your first language, since you have horrible grammar. So do your homework read and proofread.
MS wanted to own/kill Java for a long time. IBM wants to have control over Java. Now lets say Java goes free. 20 different not entirely compatible VMs are created. (How many similar but not entirely compatible GNU/Linux distros do we have :) MS creates a JVM (very crippled since now they have .Net and fair competition is a no-no) lets call JavaDOA.Net and release it with winXP 'Screw you and you'll like it' edition. EOL the old versions and that's it. No more Java. A good, object oriented, standard, extremely well documented, nearly write once run anywhere language goes the way of the Dodo. Is that really what we want? Java is a community process language. The community participates heavily. The only difference from truly 'Free' is that Sun can tell the likes of M$ to shove-it (as they did before). They keep the JVM standard and compatible! Thank your respective deity that Java is not 'entirely free'. Java is a good example of free for you and stable for me. If you cant see it, go port some 'standard' C++ code between windows and *nix(s), and we will talk again when you are done going bald. Not every peace of software has to be entirely 'Free'.
You have nearly no idea what you are talking about. Please keep coding in what ever you are coding and keep your code to yourself.
This may be a good thing in the long run. Since Novel will have a 'very strong' influence on Gnome development and on KDE development through SuSE, they may be able to bring the two desktops closer together. Maybe we will see closer interoperability? Or at least Evolution client that is ported to QT.
Lets leave the desktop wars for a minute here. Most users of SuSE Linux are KDE users, since that was the main desktop environment of SuSE. Also SuSE is a European distribution, and in Europe the tendency is to use KDE (German homegrown). (Mandrake, another big European distribution, French to be exact, also uses KDE as a main desktop) So a move by Novel from KDE to Gnome might upset more then a few hardcore fans.
... how this is going to fly. SuSE is a German company which uses KDE predominantly. Since Novel bought Ximian and with it GNome development... Anyone has any thoughts on what is to follow?
Quoting: Information Rights Management (IRM) tools will be included in the professional versions of all Office applications, including the Word processor and Excel spreadsheet programs.
To use IRM features, businesses will need a server running Microsoft's Windows Server 2003 operating system and Windows Rights Management Services software.
So I guess that for the time being its not a default, but I can see some internet based services springing up to provide internet wide access permissions, if this ever becomes big.