A while back, I had looked into what would be involved in setting up a X.Org traffic weekly/monthly/whatever. If anyone is interested in doing this, I have some info from Zack Brown who does Kernel Traffic about how he makes it all happen. Something like that for the various X.Org lists (DRI-devel, and the X.Org lists themselves) would be very helpful I think. I wish I had the time and patience to make it happen myself.:(
I think it would be very helpful for attracting new developers if people could easily keep tabs on what is going on under the hood.
"I'd like to say how smug and pleased I feel that, just this once, it isn't the United States with the new idiotic copyright law to push through"
It's the same groups that are lobbying governments worldwide to enact these sky-is-falling-laws though. It is already illegal to publish copyrighted material that you don't have permission for doing that. We need a fair way for copyright holders to enforce their rights against people who are breaking the law. That can be done without most of the content of this legislation. I think that is the message we need to give our politicians.
"Iraq was not a sovereign state. Therefore, it is quite legitimate for the US and the Coalition of 88 countries to attack it."
Iraq is not a U.S. state either. The U.S. has no jurisdiction there, and the people of Iraq have no say in the leadership of the U.S.. They should not be subject to terrorism by the U.S..
" The Iraqi people simply had no sovereignty under Saddam"
I think you are confused about what sovereignty means. Iraq was a sovereign nation, but now isn't.
"Now these same people are free to form their own government and have been awarded their human rights for the first time in their history."
No they aren't. They aren't even free to sit in their own homes without the fear of bombs falling on them.
"To say that 26 million Iraqis should remain in bondage because no WMDs were found, is so asinine."
No, to say that 26 million Iraqis should not be able to walk down the street and feel safe today and call it freedom is asinine.
"Only a fascist would even think like this"
I don't even know how you come to this conclusion. Fascist governments just love to impose their rules and beliefs on others. That is exactly what the U.S. is doing now.
"I believe the idea of attacking Iraq is to get the leadership of terrorist sympathetic nations to think twice."
Wouldn't it make more sense to attack a nation that is known to be sympathetic to terrorists then? Attacking Iraq is terrorism, it fits the definition perfectly. The justification for this war had nothing to do with terrorism though. It was about fictional WMDs, remember?
"a linux pam module to login with a spoken password. May even be doable from a livecd."
We'll just have to wait for Blu-Ray so we can just fit the voice-print of every person on the planet on the companion CD. Great idea though. Imagine a beowulf cluster of those..
"I don't believe that election was anywhere near free and fair - most candidates were banned from standing for example. If they had of been the outcome would have been very different."
It doesn't really matter what we believe. Most people in the U.S. believe that Bush was elected unfairly as well. Depending on how you look at it, Iran should be invading the U.S. to liberate them.
"And even if they were, they still don't give the government the right to take away the freedom of the people that didn't vote for them by forcing their religious beliefs on them."
Iraq didn't attack the U.S., and didn't even threaten them. They are being "liberated" because they were unable or unwilling to do it themselves. Or so the theory goes.
We don't have a right to do this. It was us who helped create the situation in the first place. All that is happening now, is they are becoming more fearful of us.
"Doesn't seem to be working. Tested with Wine 20050524 and Cedega 4.3. Barfs at the installer already."
It's doing the same thing here. That's interesting because Keyhole would run, but with many rendering glitches. It wasn't very usable, but it would install.
"But places like Iran aren't less free because people have chosen, it's because they haven't been given a choice."
They are given some choice, and they just chose that again. The people of Iran have the same concerns about crime, and feeling safe in their neighbourhoods as people in the western world do. They just feel more strongly about them, and see a different way to combat those things. What you call "freedom" is more like what you would call "anarchy", to them.
What they choose, or do not choose isn't of concern to us. We should respect them, and they will learn to respect us as well.
"It's really scary that SO many people believe that socialism could be something good. Nope."
Socialism has it's place. I'll give you an example of socialism here in Manitoba, Canada. We generate a great deal of hydro electric power, and are looking to increase the amount. We generate more than enough to supply all of Manitoba with its electricity. Manitoba Hydro, is a crown corporation that is owned by the province of Manitoba. It's mandate is to supply Manitobans with electricity as cheaply as possible. Then we can sell the excess to other parts of North America through the power grid.
This appears to be very beneficial to us, because we buy electicity at below the cost to produce it. We try to reduce our usage, in order to leave more to be sold, and benefit our province (which is not in great shape financially). Every so often, the debate comes up whether we should sell this corporation for a huge profit, and pay off a big chunk of our debt, as we did with the Manitoba Telephone System in the early 90's I think it was. I'm not sure what the answer is, the cost of servicing that debt is killing us. On the other hand, our hydro electric power is one of the few things we really have going for us. If we can grow it to a much higher level, we can get that debt under control and do some serious investment in our crumbling infrastructure.
This all fits very well in to the definition of socialism, and is benign. It doesn't have anything to do with creating an oppressive communist regime.
"Free societies are *better* than less free ones, not just different - if you don't believe that then you don't believe in anything."
What happens when a society decides that they *want* more rules? If you're saying that they don't have that right, then you're not talking about freedom at all.
"you are trying to fit one definition of a word to a obviously different common usage of it"
No, you are assuming that the 'common usage' is in fact common. It isn't outside of the U.S., that is why I was asking how that came to be. It was a question not a statement, and it's been answered already I think.
"Theo et. al. have complete control of the kernel all the way down to the user-land. In Linux, however, userland tools are GNU"
I am aware of that. To a point. BSD machines, very often contain a lot of GNU software as well in userland.
"A refactoring is a change of interface or architecture, and by definition breaks an interface contract"
And 'stable' is not subject to sudden or extreme change or fluctuation and consistently dependable. When Theo says 'We can change interfaces as we want to. We can move quickly', he's saying it is a good thing that they can do exactly what Christos is accusing Linux of doing.
Theo is saying that if they change the kernel interface, then they can change libc as well basically. When Linux changes their API, glibc changes as well. The fact that it's one group and not two intermingled groups (RedHat maintains glibc, and is a Linux distributor, and contributor for example), doesn't mean much as far as stability is concerned. The difference is mostly political as far as I'm concerned.
"Have you visted any churches outside of the religion or denominiation you're most familiar with?"
Yeah, my parents are divorced. My Mom's side of the family is Anglican, and my Dad's side of the family is part of the 'Good News Fellowship'. I'm not even sure if that is a denomination, or part of another one. It was a friend though who convinced me that I should be more open to religion a few years back, and first I began attending this church. So I was raised "Anglican", but was not a person of strong faith. Then moved on to investigate some others. Today I would very much consider myself a Buddhist, more so than a Christian, but I'm not entirely convinced that they are all that different. I hope that is what you are asking anyway.:)
Linux's code is much newer [than BSD] and it keeps constantly being re-factored [...] but stability is suffering [in relation to BSD]
and Theo is saying
We can change interfaces as we want to. We can move quickly [in relation to Linux]. Sometimes changes are even made which break previous executables [IE: sacrifice stability for flexibility, AKA re-factoring]
The point of the interview was to ask them questions about how BSD differs from Linux, and how they cooperate. It was a followup to similar questions asked of Linus. They just seem to have a very different view of how their projects relate to Linux. One seems to be a bit more political, if that's the right word.
"In the United States the terms liberal and conservative are associated with the political parties"
What is really funny about that, is here in Canada we just named them The Liberal Party, and The Conservative Party. Helps to keep it straight. But the Liberals are the center, or closer to one side depending on who you ask. The New Democrats are the far left.
Absolutely it makes sense. It just seems very strange from where I'm sitting to call someone a moderate wacko.:)
Maybe for you. For your average person, there's also a $60+ annual spyware/virus removal/detection charge. Then there's upgrades, which are included with Cedega.
I don't use Cedega at all though, Wine proper is plenty good for enough for my needs.
I'm interpreting his message as how it is told by the majority of Christians. Most of my family is Christian, and they are very aware of the fact that I don't believe Jesus was the son of God any more than you or I am.
I attend church sometimes, not to worship anything in particular, but mainly to help understand a perspective other than my own. The social groups that exist in churches, are just awesome too. I don't think it does any good to judge people's beliefs, and I speak my mind when I am offended around them (such as being told that I am going to hell). They accept me, and I have a lot of respect for them for that.
No, I think he was saying that for less money, you can get Cedega and a game, maybe two. Buy Windows, and it costs you more, plus you still need games.
BSD has been where everything seems to find a crowd of whackos to implement stuff.
There's a lot of very intelligent people working BSD. I'm a Linux zealot myself, but I really enjoyed reading this interview with Theo de Raadt, and Christos Zoulas. It's very interesting how much they seem to different in what they believe. One of the more striking ones was:
When we find that a change must be made to the system (security or otherwise) we can therefore force such a change into the system by changing it all the way from userland through the libraries down to the kernel. We can change interfaces as we want to. We can move quickly. Sometimes changes are even made which break previous executables; but if we need to, we can choose to make such decisions.
This gives us great flexibility to move forward fast. If something is designed wrong, and the fix depends on changes in more than just the kernel, we can fix it by. We change all the required pieces in the right places. We don't need hacks in the wrong place to fix a problem.
-- Theo de Raadt
-vs-
Linux's code is much newer and it keeps constantly being re-factored. This has the nice side effect of keeping the code simple and readable (at the base system layers such as VM and FS), but stability is suffering.
-- Christos Zoulas
It's hard to imagine that they are even talking about the same things.
Slashdot Mirror
A while back, I had looked into what would be involved in setting up a X.Org traffic weekly/monthly/whatever. If anyone is interested in doing this, I have some info from Zack Brown who does Kernel Traffic about how he makes it all happen. Something like that for the various X.Org lists (DRI-devel, and the X.Org lists themselves) would be very helpful I think. I wish I had the time and patience to make it happen myself. :(
I think it would be very helpful for attracting new developers if people could easily keep tabs on what is going on under the hood.
I concur.
;)
I knew we'd finally agree on something.
"I'd like to say how smug and pleased I feel that, just this once, it isn't the United States with the new idiotic copyright law to push through"
It's the same groups that are lobbying governments worldwide to enact these sky-is-falling-laws though. It is already illegal to publish copyrighted material that you don't have permission for doing that. We need a fair way for copyright holders to enforce their rights against people who are breaking the law. That can be done without most of the content of this legislation. I think that is the message we need to give our politicians.
Mandatory monkey-boy link.
Bush gave 5 reasons to attack Iraq, one was WMD
Which of the five was mentioned to the U.N.?
"Iraq was not a sovereign state. Therefore, it is quite legitimate for the US and the Coalition of 88 countries to attack it."
Iraq is not a U.S. state either. The U.S. has no jurisdiction there, and the people of Iraq have no say in the leadership of the U.S.. They should not be subject to terrorism by the U.S..
" The Iraqi people simply had no sovereignty under Saddam"
I think you are confused about what sovereignty means. Iraq was a sovereign nation, but now isn't.
"Now these same people are free to form their own government and have been awarded their human rights for the first time in their history."
No they aren't. They aren't even free to sit in their own homes without the fear of bombs falling on them.
"To say that 26 million Iraqis should remain in bondage because no WMDs were found, is so asinine."
No, to say that 26 million Iraqis should not be able to walk down the street and feel safe today and call it freedom is asinine.
"Only a fascist would even think like this"
I don't even know how you come to this conclusion. Fascist governments just love to impose their rules and beliefs on others. That is exactly what the U.S. is doing now.
"I believe the idea of attacking Iraq is to get the leadership of terrorist sympathetic nations to think twice."
Wouldn't it make more sense to attack a nation that is known to be sympathetic to terrorists then? Attacking Iraq is terrorism, it fits the definition perfectly. The justification for this war had nothing to do with terrorism though. It was about fictional WMDs, remember?
"a linux pam module to login with a spoken password. May even be doable from a livecd."
We'll just have to wait for Blu-Ray so we can just fit the voice-print of every person on the planet on the companion CD. Great idea though. Imagine a beowulf cluster of those..
Sigh..
"you'd better think a bit more than twice before saying such things. War is not the answer to a lot of things.
You should have quoted the beginning of that..
I'm in no way in favour of military action
"I don't believe that election was anywhere near free and fair - most candidates were banned from standing for example. If they had of been the outcome would have been very different."
It doesn't really matter what we believe. Most people in the U.S. believe that Bush was elected unfairly as well. Depending on how you look at it, Iran should be invading the U.S. to liberate them.
"And even if they were, they still don't give the government the right to take away the freedom of the people that didn't vote for them by forcing their religious beliefs on them."
Iraq didn't attack the U.S., and didn't even threaten them. They are being "liberated" because they were unable or unwilling to do it themselves. Or so the theory goes.
We don't have a right to do this. It was us who helped create the situation in the first place. All that is happening now, is they are becoming more fearful of us.
"Doesn't seem to be working. Tested with Wine 20050524 and Cedega 4.3. Barfs at the installer already."
It's doing the same thing here. That's interesting because Keyhole would run, but with many rendering glitches. It wasn't very usable, but it would install.
"But places like Iran aren't less free because people have chosen, it's because they haven't been given a choice."
They are given some choice, and they just chose that again. The people of Iran have the same concerns about crime, and feeling safe in their neighbourhoods as people in the western world do. They just feel more strongly about them, and see a different way to combat those things. What you call "freedom" is more like what you would call "anarchy", to them.
What they choose, or do not choose isn't of concern to us. We should respect them, and they will learn to respect us as well.
"It's really scary that SO many people believe that socialism could be something good. Nope."
Socialism has it's place. I'll give you an example of socialism here in Manitoba, Canada. We generate a great deal of hydro electric power, and are looking to increase the amount. We generate more than enough to supply all of Manitoba with its electricity. Manitoba Hydro, is a crown corporation that is owned by the province of Manitoba. It's mandate is to supply Manitobans with electricity as cheaply as possible. Then we can sell the excess to other parts of North America through the power grid.
This appears to be very beneficial to us, because we buy electicity at below the cost to produce it. We try to reduce our usage, in order to leave more to be sold, and benefit our province (which is not in great shape financially). Every so often, the debate comes up whether we should sell this corporation for a huge profit, and pay off a big chunk of our debt, as we did with the Manitoba Telephone System in the early 90's I think it was. I'm not sure what the answer is, the cost of servicing that debt is killing us. On the other hand, our hydro electric power is one of the few things we really have going for us. If we can grow it to a much higher level, we can get that debt under control and do some serious investment in our crumbling infrastructure.
This all fits very well in to the definition of socialism, and is benign. It doesn't have anything to do with creating an oppressive communist regime.
"Free societies are *better* than less free ones, not just different - if you don't believe that then you don't believe in anything."
What happens when a society decides that they *want* more rules? If you're saying that they don't have that right, then you're not talking about freedom at all.
"you are trying to fit one definition of a word to a obviously different common usage of it"
No, you are assuming that the 'common usage' is in fact common. It isn't outside of the U.S., that is why I was asking how that came to be. It was a question not a statement, and it's been answered already I think.
"Theo et. al. have complete control of the kernel all the way down to the user-land. In Linux, however, userland tools are GNU"
I am aware of that. To a point. BSD machines, very often contain a lot of GNU software as well in userland.
"A refactoring is a change of interface or architecture, and by definition breaks an interface contract"
And 'stable' is not subject to sudden or extreme change or fluctuation and consistently dependable. When Theo says 'We can change interfaces as we want to. We can move quickly', he's saying it is a good thing that they can do exactly what Christos is accusing Linux of doing.
Theo is saying that if they change the kernel interface, then they can change libc as well basically. When Linux changes their API, glibc changes as well. The fact that it's one group and not two intermingled groups (RedHat maintains glibc, and is a Linux distributor, and contributor for example), doesn't mean much as far as stability is concerned. The difference is mostly political as far as I'm concerned.
"Have you visted any churches outside of the religion or denominiation you're most familiar with?"
:)
Yeah, my parents are divorced. My Mom's side of the family is Anglican, and my Dad's side of the family is part of the 'Good News Fellowship'. I'm not even sure if that is a denomination, or part of another one. It was a friend though who convinced me that I should be more open to religion a few years back, and first I began attending this church. So I was raised "Anglican", but was not a person of strong faith. Then moved on to investigate some others. Today I would very much consider myself a Buddhist, more so than a Christian, but I'm not entirely convinced that they are all that different. I hope that is what you are asking anyway.
That's just it.. Christos is saying
and Theo is saying
The point of the interview was to ask them questions about how BSD differs from Linux, and how they cooperate. It was a followup to similar questions asked of Linus. They just seem to have a very different view of how their projects relate to Linux. One seems to be a bit more political, if that's the right word.
"In the United States the terms liberal and conservative are associated with the political parties"
:)
What is really funny about that, is here in Canada we just named them The Liberal Party, and The Conservative Party. Helps to keep it straight. But the Liberals are the center, or closer to one side depending on who you ask. The New Democrats are the far left.
Absolutely it makes sense. It just seems very strange from where I'm sitting to call someone a moderate wacko.
"but I'd like to point out one small detail: I believe it was recently made into law that in Canada, privatized health care is now legal."
Really?
"BTW. Despite what the mod was thinking, I wasn't flaming. Thanks for the pleasant conversation."
;)
You bet. Glad to have you on the team.
"But the Windows cost is a one time cost."
Maybe for you. For your average person, there's also a $60+ annual spyware/virus removal/detection charge. Then there's upgrades, which are included with Cedega.
I don't use Cedega at all though, Wine proper is plenty good for enough for my needs.
I'm interpreting his message as how it is told by the majority of Christians. Most of my family is Christian, and they are very aware of the fact that I don't believe Jesus was the son of God any more than you or I am.
I attend church sometimes, not to worship anything in particular, but mainly to help understand a perspective other than my own. The social groups that exist in churches, are just awesome too. I don't think it does any good to judge people's beliefs, and I speak my mind when I am offended around them (such as being told that I am going to hell). They accept me, and I have a lot of respect for them for that.
" So you're saying $180 is less than $80?"
No, I think he was saying that for less money, you can get Cedega and a game, maybe two. Buy Windows, and it costs you more, plus you still need games.
There's a lot of very intelligent people working BSD. I'm a Linux zealot myself, but I really enjoyed reading this interview with Theo de Raadt, and Christos Zoulas. It's very interesting how much they seem to different in what they believe. One of the more striking ones was:
-vs-
It's hard to imagine that they are even talking about the same things.
"Thanks for keeping the reply to non-flame. I usually get slammed for comments like this."
Same to you, it's very much apreciated. And good for you for believing in something. Apathy is the only evil that I know of.