Slashdot Mirror
Adopt a [Chinese] Blog
malorkus writes "Here's a great way for bloggers and others with decent web hosting to help fight internet censorship in China and other restrictive countries. Adopt a Chinese Blog aims to match up censored bloggers with volunteer hosts."
Wouldn't their government then just block access to certain servers / sites / blogs?
"I cannot think of any need in childhood as strong as the need for a father's protection." -- Sigmund Freud
Fine, but what do I get in return? Will they farm my World of Warcraft gold for me? Make me a snow-globe or something?
Hrm... so,
In Soviet Russia, Bloggers host you!
Your sig(k) has been stolen. There is a puff of smoke!
*Sally Struthers walks on*
For just 5 megs a month you can adopt a Chinese blog. You will recieve letters, a digital camera picture and more from your sponsored blog. Your blog will recieve bandwidth, FTP access and encryption...
Just 5 megs a month. Isn't that worth it?
What's to stop the government from arresting people who are trying to get around their censorship?
"Leave China alone for Christ's sake. You're not going to change things, especially if you are NOT IN CHINA!"
No way. This has gone way too far.
If there is truth to these accusations that the Chinese government is intimidating citizens of my country in any way for something such as practicing Falun Gong, then we have a serious problem that need s addressing.
I'm in no way in favour of military action, but this is clearly and act of war on their part if it is true.
Is there some law in China against circumventing the censorship laws? Like.... What is the potential punishment that you are probably incurring upon whatever China-person you "help out"?
Methinks the distinction here is censorship of information and legitimate opinion rather than censorship of trolls. We like to censor trolls, nobody wants to wake up to one in the morning...
...you insensitive crod!
I'd be scared shitless to visit China if I let some dissident bloggers use some of my hosting space. The Chinese govt. is probably paranoid enough to start putting together a list of individuals who have helped these "dangerous" individuals.
Another concern I'd have is that a blogger might have lots of harsh words about some local official, but how do I know it isn't simply slander? And what would my liabilities be in such a case?
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
I think I'll outsource my blog to India.
There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
You can't outsource to the US. That just dosn't mesh with the United States' plan for global domination.
You make fun of France once and your Karma is never the same...
It's just a matter of time before Chinese agents sign up for this and starts giving the samaritan nice presents in form of viruses, trojan horses etc.
what's stopping the Chinese secret service (or whatever) to register with this service as hosts, collect all the information needed to snatch the blogger and make an example out of him and his family?
"If there is truth to these accusations that the Chinese government is intimidating citizens of my country in any way for something such as practicing Falun Gong, then we have a serious problem that need s addressing.
/. would say we should not have gone to war with Iraq.
I'm in no way in favour of military action, but this is clearly and act of war on their part if it is true."
yet Saddam Hussein can kill 2 million people and almost all here on
I don't think you are going to get much support for military action on this forum.
Would any chinese adopt my european CVS?
That would be great! If I could move my project to a free country. Reading trivial patents is so boring you know...
This is great idea! What about hosting blogs of citizens of other countries where internet censorship run rampant? I guess the campaign does cover a lot of territory, given China's immense population.
The bits on the bus go on and off... on and off... on and off...
China is a safe haven for all sorts of internet activity which is illegal and reprehensible here, I guess it's only fair that we return the favor.
This is their choice. I am sure they are all too aware of the punishment they may receive if they are discovered. However, this will allow them to operate a blog without having to give the Chinese government their name and address.
Of course they will still have to cover their tracks whenever they post or read their blog (or just about anything else on the Internet), but it will give them one additional layer of protection.
If people are willing to risk their lives in an effort to change their circumstances giving a little bit of storage and bandwidth seems to be the least we can do.
LIVE, Love, die
Isn't the internet flooded with millions of pointless worthless blogs already? The last thing we want is more.
I'm smarter than the average bear.
"yet Saddam Hussein can kill 2 million people and almost all here on /. would say we should not have gone to war with Iraq"
Excellent point. This is why I am also not in favour of military action against China. On this account, at least you cannot call me a hypocrite.
I'm talking about diplomacy, and possibly outlawing trade with them.
Methinks the distinction here is censorship of information and legitimate opinion rather than censorship of trolls. We like to censor trolls, nobody wants to wake up to one in the morning...
Yeah right.
Until you make a joke about Mac's and get banned for a month. Of course, making jokes about Windows in every other article is ok, but don't touch the blessing children of Slashdot, the mac, or anything running linux.
The people who run slashdot abuse their power to enforce their views. It's not really that bad though, Slashdot isn't professional journalism, it's just a crappy website that became more successful than it ever should have.
Sorry to tell you this but its only an "act of war" if the US goverment doesn't like the country, just look at Israel and what they do.
But don't they use services like free blogger.com?
This is my sig. There are thousands more, but this one is mine.
A trade embargo is not going to make China change it's policy on internet content filtering.
The linked site does not exactly show how they plan to limit (ab)use to actual opressed bloggers and keep the spam and ads out.
BTW, what is wrong with opening a (Chinese) blog account on one of Western sites and emailing blog posts via some foreign Webmail site that provides HTTPS encryption of Web sessions?
a secluded NOC was the target of what appears to have been a small nuclear strike. The only other traffic in the area was a Chinese cargo blimp twenty klicks south- southwest which also seems to have been destroyed in the incident.
"Our interests are to see if we can't scale it up to something more exciting," he said.
Considering the large amount of goods the United States buys from China and the small amount they buy from us, we could probably do a lot of damage to their economy if we restricted trade. We could do without cheap linen goods and plastic toys; can they do without their money?
And its not like other countries aren't doing the same ... (hello, France wrt louis vuitton auctions, Germany wrtnazi memorabilia, Microsoft wrt Mike Rowe Soft) ... oops, forgot, Microsoft isn't a country - they outsource that function by renting their politicians.
Yes, they're people will just suffer a lot more and lose whatever chance they may have had at goverment reform in the future (from everything I've read the Chinese goverment isn't stupid enough to believe they can keep their current system going once China become rich/capitalistic enough). Look at Iraq and North Korea, or Cuba.
Quite. Other nations are looking to *increase* trade with China, not to decrease it. Forget about embargos in terms of leverage against Beijing.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
anti-war = friendly elf, mod up /. China
question anti-war = troll, mod down
question Bush's past = friendly elf, mod up
question democrat's past = troll, mod down
anti-gun = friendly elf
pro-gun = troll
.
pro Chinese Gov. troll FE
Chinese dissadent. FE troll
fucking idiots
It may seem drastic I know, but why do we trade with countries that have a bad human rights record ? It seems a little odd to me
This is true too. I am much less familiar with that situation than this one. I am however aware that the Jew -vs- Muslim war has tyrants on both sides. Buddhism is concerned primarily with having compassion for others. I do not believe you will find an example of Buddhists retaliating against oppression. I have no idea the depths of what happens in Israel, or to Muslims when they travel there, but this quote is what I am concerned about:
...and possibly outlawing trade with them. Yeah! Put Wal Mart out of business!!!
If it's for spreading political propaganda, you're guaranteed a place in the sun at a Lao Gai prison.
This isn't about blogging. Its a somewhat rhetorical, outside-of-the-box question -- "What if the Chinese government is using the right approach?"
Their economic growth has been much better than ours over the last decade. Their top-down economy can decide to build new nuclear plants when they need them without having to deal with environmentalists interfering for a decade or more. [One of the best prospects for eliminating dependence on foreign oil is relatively cheap electricity combined with hybrid and eventually full electric cars.] They don't have to worry about the "networks" trying to slip "broadcast flag" ammendments onto appropriations bills. Their politicians don't have to worry about catering to the money. Etc.
In short, is a top-down command controlled political system (and economy) better than a system run by a bunch of special interests elected into place by people who vote based in large part on how someone looks [according to results of a recent scientific study]?
just look at Israel and what they do
What exactly? Protect their citizens (15% of which is Arab by the way)?
No, governments should do nothing while palestinians blow up kids in nightclubs and school buses.
I think this is a great idea. Sure, there may be some legalities involved but who cares? Thats what disclaimers are for, I suppose. I think its worth the risk, if there is even any at all. I never would have been involved in websites to this day if a few generous souls donated some webspace for me to play around with. Besides, I dont know anyone in China, its a nice way to meet some new people and get another perspective on life on the other side of the globe.
sig: Playfully doing something difficult, whether useful or not
The argument by sane people has never been that we should not have ever gone to war with Iraq. It was always that Bush's war with Iraq was shady and would not have a positive impact on terrorism. Stop arguing with idiots, it's making you dumber.
We went to war with Iraq because Hussein was killing his people?? Ohhhh, I forgot to turn my code wheel to Tuesday to see what today's justification was.
"Yes, they're people will just suffer a lot more and lose whatever chance they may have had at goverment reform in the future"
At this point I'm pretty sure the Chinese people feel hopeless about any chances for reform. Iraq, North Korea, and Cuba aren't involved in spying on and arresting citizens of foreign countries, that we know of. What a government does to its citizens is one thing, but foreigners are different. The citizens have a responsibility to keep their governments in line. I fear the same issues have arisen closer to home as well though, there's plenty of this stuff going on right now in the US.
It's great to see efforts being made to give the people of China free speech, but the increasing level of madness and greed emanating from (corporate)America the situation is no longer as one-sided as it once was.
The Chinese government should return fire with fire by encouraging "legal" Chinese web site operators to "Adopt a patent-free website" or Adopt a DMCA victim".
They could start with the author of DVD Decrypter.
The American Government is no longer the squeaky-clean defender of the oppressed that it never was, and now that Canada and Europe have fallen,
it looks like the time has come for a kind of copyright anti-here.
China fits the bill like no other country in the world...
You mean like spying on my goverment and stealing information from it?
In exchange, I promise to be scathingly critical about nation you choose.
The internet is no longer safe for many of the activities that we once liked. Slapping a band-aid on one little piece of it won't fix the problem, and it can only serve to provoke a crackdown. Does no one remember Tiannamen Square?
We need a new network. An anonymous one, one where no one can figure out if you are even connected to i, let alone the one that wrote a blog that appears on it. It isn't Freenet. It needs to be IPv4/IPv6 capable... we got rid of all the old layer 3 protocols because nothing less would suffice. It can't be Tor, we got rid of host files, because we want real, human-readable domain names, rye932hj2h3.onion doesn't count. Sadly, everyone seems to have missed out that anonymity isn't some phd-level cryptography puzzle. We have all the software tools we need, off the shelf.
Take your favorite vpn software, freeswan, openvpn, hell, even pptp. Once you use it to connect to a friend, you have your own (2 host) IP network. It can't be eavesdropped on. But you're not anonymous to that person, you have to know his internet IP, right? So make sure that person is always in another nation than your own. If they wiretap your internet connection, they'll see ipsec packets going to that IP, make sure he is beyond the reach of your law enforcement authorities (and you will also be beyond the reach of his!). Now, if you connect to a second person outside your own country, that person can communicate with your other partner, and they are anonymous for all intents and purposes. They can ping each other, lob UDP packets at each other, any number of things, that we take for granted, each and every day on the internet.
Still, it's a lame network, with just 3 people. But it can grow. Every person that connects that is willing to set up a router (even a crappy little 486 will do) can invite yet more people. It could scale to thousands of people, tens of thousands. IRC, webpages, email, everything that works here. And at best, you only know the identities of a few people on it, all of whom are safe on the other side of an international border even if you are forced to reveal who they are.
What keeps you people from doing this? Does it sound to simple to work? Is the end result too polished, you want to spend the next 2 weeks trying to insert a file on freenet? Does openvpn and bgp intimidate you?
Go on, ignore me. Spend the next 5 years whining about this strategic withdrawal, and that EFF holding action, slashdot.
Anyone that is interested, reply to this post with a method of contact. Tell a friend (who resides in nation other than your own) about it, get him interested. Everyone who brings in another person gets to connect, no other requirements.
On the surface, I think this is a wonderful idea. I just happen to own a server, and very well may participate in this.
But I have one concern.
If I get caught by the Chinese government, all they can do is block my server. If the person I'm hosting gets caught, they get tossed in to jail or stood up against a wall and shot.
I must contemplate this on the tree of woe...
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
"No, governments should do nothing while palestinians blow up kids in nightclubs and school buses."
They should consider themselves lucky that the US gives them billions of dollars of weapons to fight enemies that are equiped with rocks and primitive explosives. Enemies that they imposed upon, and enemies that they threaten and steal from when they attempt to expand their borders.
Israel lost its sympathy card a long time ago.
Yeah, like what goes on in the south of Thailand proves that.
This would be irresponsible, especially if you are of Chinese decent. It is highly probable that out of 1 billion people, your name collides with someone else's. You won't get in trouble, but they might receive the torture chamber due to mistake identity.
This is an excellent idea! Teaming up with people from across the globe, thus changing their view about a country or person etc.
This is definately the opportunity of a lifetime.
----- You know you have ego issues when you register a domain in your name.
sadly, I've blown my mod points for today... otherwise, I'd have modded you up
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
I've read hundreds of posts on slashdot that were wrongly modded down (censored) as trolls because people didn't like what they had to say, and others modded up as 'insightful' with content like 'MS SUCKS' and nothing else to say. Now this community is bitching about China?!! The looking glass is a mirror.
BTW, -1 as a troll. To hell with my karma.
Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach him to fish and he'll wipe out the species.
I think we're more against lies. If you say it's clearly because of the people's rights and that's why you're invading we might support you. If you make up something about weapons of mass destruction (ok china actually has them, so you wouldn't be making that up, but something along those lines) we won't.
I am trolling
China's gov. does nothing to stop de floods of SPAM sent everyday from there but want to fsck up bloggers? Simple! Just start sending out all your political considerations by spamming the world with it.
If you can sell vI@gr@ and enlarge my penis maybe you can make me read all the things you have to say about living in a represive country (not that by living in Brazil we don't already know).
If you cannot blog it, SPAM it!
A government like that is certainly more efficient but what happens when the people in charge aren't benevolent and decide that their first priority is something other than keeping the trains running on time. For example say you get some folks in power that are like the Taliban and want to impose their morality and views on the populace because they're serving what they consider a higher cause.
Give me the checks and balances and flaws of a democracy any day. There are more important things than efficiency.
They should consider themselves lucky that the US gives them billions of dollars of weapons to fight enemies that are equiped with rocks and primitive explosives.
WTF? Do you think they use all of those weapons on the Palestinians? The best thing that can happen for Israel is for he world to acknowledge that it *IS* a war. The fact is, if they used those weapons in an all out war, the Palestinians wouldn't have a fucking change.
And to describe palestinian as poor enemies with only rocks and primitive explosives is nothing short of fuckign ignorant. A suicide bomber who can disguise himself, walk into a nightclub and blow himself up is far more dangerous than the restricted actions of the IDF. Especially since it creates a situtation where liberties (including those of Palestinians) have to be exchanged for security.
Enemies that they imposed upon, and enemies that they threaten and steal from when they attempt to expand their borders.
I invite you to read some history and get damn a clue.
A country like Israel, despite being attacked repeatedly by its neighbours, being built up of people who have had their lands stolen off them (in both Europe and Arabia) has managed to develop into the only multi-cultural, multi-ethnic democracy in the middle east. Israel is responsible for inventions ranging from the MRI to ICQ to the Pentium-M.
When was the last time you saw a Jew blowing himself up in Saudi Arabia or Germany demanding their land back? Nope, they just get on with their fucking lives and contribute to humanity instead of becoming career refugees like a certain group of people.
Oh, like no Governments except for the Israeli government spys on other nations.
Get some fucking perspective.
"I think we're more against lies. If you say it's clearly because of the people's rights and that's why you're invading we might support you."
The reality is, if we go to war with China nuclear weapons are going to be used. They will likely also ally with the "Axis of Evil" that Bush invented. We have to send a strong message that our citizens are free, and that isn't up for negotiation though. It doesn't take a war to do that.
Community Colocation Project is part of the Online Policy Group which provides Free (as in speech AND beer) hosting to any individual or non profit entity. They're the peoeple who fought Diebold, refuse to work with unacceptable takedown notices, and in general, are here to host these kinds of sites.
/. is a commercial entity. goto slashdot.com
Words don't kill people, people's actions or choices do.
----- You know you have ego issues when you register a domain in your name.
Why did you post this as AC? Scared? Oh well. I'm not grinding a personal axe but stating something most people either ignore, or don't see. People always talk about China/Saudi Arabia/*insert country US doesnt like* lack of human rights/free speech and so on, and are totally oblivious to the fact that they are being completely hypocritical. What about Guantanamo Bay, where people have been held for years without trial? What about the Patriot Act, that gives the government the right to arrest and spy on people without being questioned? People should be considering this before blasting countries like China. And note I'm not saying China is good and the US is bad.
There's already quite a lot of chinese users, and the application supports free blogging (and international character sets) - seems like a good fit?
I also question how the parent poster (and people in general) seem to assume that anyone who is interested in protecting the environment is some kind of wacko.
Businesses are successful when they're profitable. Many times it's more profitable to say, dump your companies waste in the river than to dispose of it safely.
Now certainly there are environmentalists that would rather save one little fish than build a sub-division. Those people are extremists.
But it's a fact that power and money are corrupting influences. And we absolutely need people and organizations to work to make sure that our paint isn't filled with lead, our water isn't contaminated by waste from hog farms and our beaches don't have medical trash washing up on them.
The media likes to paint anyone interested in the environment as a wacko as that gets viewers to tune in.
The US has become a country where people think you have to be THIS or THAT. You're either conservative or liberal. You're either an environmental nutcase or you're pro-business.
There are many shades of grey. I want a positive business environment so I and my children have stable jobs AND I want it with clean air. You can have both.
Doesn't China consider Falun Gong practioners to be terrorists ?
In which case they seem to be going about things in much the same way the US/UK are with their terrorists.
"The fact is, if they used those weapons in an all out war, the Palestinians wouldn't have a fucking change."
The fact is, they should not have those weapons at all. I find the idea of giving someone weapons and calling it humanitarian aid offensive.
Isreal has been attacked by its neighbours, but Isreal has also attacked them. Neither one is right
Suicide bombers are attempting to show how hopeless they feel about their situation in the very loudest way possible. There is a fair solution, and it doesn't involve more death. Unfortunately the suicide bombers have done such a good job, that they have also lost their sympathy card. And further, Isreal doesn't feel it can offer them anything without being seen as giving in to terrorism. The situation is very very sad, and it just feeds on itself through fear.
The best thing the world can do at this point is look on with sorrow I'm afraid. The best thing that Isreal, and the Palestinians can do at this point is wake up from the terrible nightmare they are having. Nothing is worth all this.
Well, you seem to say, since we have the Patriot Act, we have no standing to observe any other country's wrong?
Can't both items be wrong and be corrected? Why can't we complain about the treatment of people by foreign governments when we have a restrictive act of our own?
You imply that we cannot and should not comment of any thing any other nation does that hurts their own citizens. I think you are wrong in that point.
Do I get a picture before, or after their fingers are broken by the authorities?
Yes, and yes. Pretty much exactly the same way. Except that China isn't engaging in as many illegal trade practices. And they didn't deport the lady from Montreal to Syria.
http://www.peacefire.org/ has a couple ways to get around chinese blocking too.
A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
The fact is, they should not have those weapons at all. I find the idea of giving someone weapons and calling it humanitarian aid offensive
What? Israel has been attacked by its neighbours who have sworn to "push israel into the sea" and the US shouldn't help Israel defend itself? it is in the best interests of the US and the world that Israel -- a stable multicultural democracy in the middle east -- survives.
Suicide bombers are attempting to show how hopeless they feel about their situation in the very loudest way possible
No, they do it cause they believe they are stupid and think they will get rewarded (sex etc) in heaven. They are idiots and it's no suprise that they generally are very young.
The best thing the world can do at this point is look on with sorrow I'm afraid
You know, there is *much* worse happening in the world. The Israeli/Middle-east conflict is so popular because it's the only place of conflict where the reporters can sit down and have sushi whilst they wirte about how horrible Israel is.
As well, Americans of Vietnamese ancestry are, at representation, in organizations like Amnesty International (AI). In fact, one such person ran to be a board member of AI. By contrast, AI is almost devoid of Americans of Chinese ancestry. In short, Vietnam will, more quickly, become a liberal Western democracy than China.
For about the price of a cup of *java* a day...
*ducks*
"Israel has been attacked by its neighbours who have sworn to "push israel into the sea" and the US shouldn't help Israel defend itself?"
Yes, exactly. They bulldoze homes of Palastinian people, and build settlements on their land. This is outrageous. It makes no more sense for you to defend the US' relationship with Israel, than it does for Syria or Lebanon to aid the Palestinians. Less so, because it's really none of the US' business until one side or the other decides to play fair at least.
"The Israeli/Middle-east conflict is so popular because it's the only place of conflict where the reporters can sit down and have sushi whilst they wirte about how horrible Israel is."
No, the Israeli/Middle-east conflict is so popular because it is the source of all this craziness with terrorism this, and terrorism that. This is exactly what I mean when I say "The situation is very very sad, and it just feeds on itself through fear."
What about Live Journal or something?
Maybe Bittorent style blogging?
Pretty Pictures!
Nothing is worth all this.
Unfortunately some don't see things the same way and you then get the suicide bombers and other actions to gain control of areas. The religious importance of the region is enough to keep people interested in the fighting (well that and past losses).
Yes, exactly. They bulldoze homes of Palastinian people, and build settlements on their land
Homes used by terrorists or to smuggle weapons (hidden tunnels).
It makes no more sense for you to defend the US' relationship with Israel, than it does for Syria or Lebanon to aid the Palestinians.
No, it does and I've already explained why.
Without US weapons defending Israel (deterrence works great), Israel would now be North Egypt, West Jordon and Southern Lebanon. The concept of a Palestinian state would be a footnote in history. Because of Israel and this whole conflict, Palestinians for the first time in history will get their own country.
Less so, because it's really none of the US' business until one side or the other decides to play fair at least.
How can you reason that it will suddenly become the US's business when one side decides to "play fair"? I've never heard of anything more ridiculous. And by your own standards, isn't it possible that the US has decided that Israel is playing it "fairer"?
I like Chinese...
There's 900 million of them in the world today, so you better get to like them, thats what I say...
I like Chinese....
I like Chinese Food... The waiters never are rude...
And they said zombies weren't real!
"Homes used by terrorists or to smuggle weapons (hidden tunnels)"
Yes, well we all know what a threat to humanity hidden tunnels are.
"Without US weapons defending Israel (deterrence works great), Israel would now be North Egypt, West Jordon and Southern Lebanon. The concept of a Palestinian state would be a footnote in history."
So would Israel. I'm not sure Israel is justified in existing in the first place. What went on in Germany was attrocious, but I don't think it gives anyone the right to behave this way. Stop advancing, and give them their damn land route. What is so hard about that?
"How can you reason that it will suddenly become the US's business when one side decides to "play fair"?"
Because hypocrisy is a logical fallacy. It doesn't matter which one is "fairer", fair is fair, and anything else is unfair.
...can we buy the bullet they'll use to save their family the expense?
Falun Gong is not Buddhism. Buddhism is not at all illegal in China, and there are many Buddhist temples.
What people in the West don't realise is that the Falun Gong is a fucking crazy cult. They're like the Scientologists, but more dedicated, and they were banned because they made a grab for political power. I don't think they should be banned (I'm in favour of freedom of religion), but the Falun Gong practitioners are not the innocent victims they make themselves out to be.
you have the power to change your system if you think it can be imporved? Or are you just fantasizing you have the freedom to do so?
I think my head just exploded. That is the dumbest thing I've ever read.
its like adopting a starving child in djibouti, but without having to send them a postcard
What's the point if this Slashdot article is filtered in China? Apparently no Chinese blog would know about it.
None of that matters in the face of the allegations that China is doing these things on foreign soil. Whether or not Falun Gong is a 'fucking crazy cult' or not is only your opinion. The Scientologists have a right to believe what they do too, it's their methods of dealing with non believers that I have a problem with. I've seen enough of that to know what it's about I think. I'm not about to call them names though, or tell them they are wrong.
"Falun Gong is not Buddhism. Buddhism is not at all illegal in China, and there are many Buddhist temples."
Sorry, I meant to respond to this as well. China's history with Tibet is enough to make me fear their persecution. Especially based on their lack of respect for international borders. The practice of Buddhism was banned there, as Falun Gong is now in China. To me this fear of political instability is almost as frightening as fear of opposing religions.
When I first read about the blog censorship on msn in china, I tried it myself, and discovered that you were infact allowed to write the words "freedom" and "democracy" if you only registered yourself as not living in China. So with my fake identity of a Chinese student living in Beijing, I couldn't write the characters for democracy, but with my real identity of a Danish student living in Copenhagen, I could easily write those words, and it had no impact that I was infact using the Chinese msn site.
"that, plus if they post in chinese and you can't understand it, you may very well be hosting a government "agent provocateur""
Actually, I've found that the Google Toolbar translation tool does a decent job w/ translating web pages in Chinese into English. Enough so that you should be able to get the gist of what they are posting.
Sure, let's stop trading with governments who imprison civilians (including minors) for years without any charges; and also those who abuse, torture, and humiliate their prisoners; and also those with secret search and seizure laws including libraries; and those who send agents oversea to assasinate foreign leaders and overthrow democraticly elected governments.
Hmmm. Who's left on the list? Canada?
Does any one have a totally clean hand ?
Are you completely nuts? You DO realize that suicide bombers seek out crowded areas and then blow themselves up along with as many innocent civilians as possible? I fail to see how that doesn't "involve more death" nor do I see how it is a fair solution. It's a fucking stupid non-solution that does nothing but terrorize innocents (thus the whole "terrorism" thing).
A suicide bomber is a far far cry from the protesting monk who douses himself in kerosene and sets himself on fire or something. One kills himself only, as a form of social outcry. The other kills himself along with as many innocent people as possible with the sole intention of scattering body parts, blood and fear over as wide an area as possible.
-- Gary F.
I want my monkey-man!
Perhaps because it's in their economic self-interests? I mean, seriously, why do you think governments do *anything*?
Why did we go to war in Iraq? Why did France oppose it? Why do we push for strict IP laws around the world? Why do we shun the Kyoto treaty?
Money makes de vorld go round...
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
People always talk about China/Saudi Arabia/*insert country US doesnt like* lack of human rights/free speech and so on, and are totally oblivious to the fact that they are being completely hypocritical. What about Guantanamo Bay, where people have been held for years without trial? What about the Patriot Act, that gives the government the right to arrest and spy on people without being questioned?
I think you'll find that many of the same people who criticise lack of freedom elsewhere are the same ones who think the Patriot Act is unconstitutional. In either case it is irrelevant. One does not need to live in a utopia in order to comment on the situation in other countries.
The fact is that the Chinese government is totalitarian and very motivated in the preservation of its regime. It will use any means necessary to maintain that position. It doesn't matter if it violates the rights of its citizens in doing that, as the "party" obviously considers itself above its own laws.
Here in the US the various agencies are held accountable (at some level at least) for their actions, and they can be taken to court (FBI, Waco, anyone?). We could certainly use more accountability in the office of the president and Congress however.
Talking about the US is simply a diversion on your part though. I've lived in Saudi Arabia. I've been to Taiwan and lived in South Korea. Seeing how Taiwan and South Korea regard their counterparts (China and North Korea), and having been in Saudi I can tell you the people of those countries do not enjoy the kinds of freedoms we take for granted in the US. In all those places having access to information deemed unacceptable (regardless of whether you actually DO - ie. perhaps simply owning a satellite dish), could be viewed as a major crime. Any society that needs to censor the topic of freedom cannot be free (you simply cannot give me a valid enough answer as to why China's massive censoring of the internet is a "ok" thing - its not, no matter what argument one might provide).
but Isreal has also attacked them.
i t
Isreal doesn't feel it can offer them anything without being seen as giving in to terrorism.
Curtman, if you really think the above are true, you should do some reading about the '48, '67, and '73 wars. They are wars of aggression and conquest launched by Israel's Arab neighbors.
You should also look at Barak's peace offer. It's a great deal. Arafat's response was to launch another Intifada.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_2000_Summ
No i'm not. Both items are wrong and *should* be corrected. What im saying is that the US (especially the US government) is quick to point fingers at other countries when they violate human rights and freedom, and then turn around and do the same thing themselves. I guess I wasn't clear, but the US (government) shouldn't be telling other countries what to do when they have problems of their own to fix.
The US is the most powerful nation in the world right now, and is very motivated in preserving that fact. Even so far as to wage war against countries that haven't attacked it. Isn't that totalitarian?
Here in the US the various agencies are held accountable (at some level at least) for their actions, and they can be taken to court (FBI, Waco, anyone?). We could certainly use more accountability in the office of the president and Congress however.
Definitely, especially since the CIA and the president fabricated lies to justify going to war, and has continued to lie against mounting evidence (ie, not knowing about immenent attacks, etc).
I can't comment on other countries, but I've lived int he Middle East (i'm from Kuwait). Yes, internet in Saudi Arabia/Kuwait and similar countries IS "censored", but the censoring is done merely against pornographic content, as its against the law there, and I can respect that. However, owning a satellite dish is certainly not viewed as a major crime, and virtually everyone nowadays has satellite TV, as Cable TV isn't widespread. But no, I can't respect or justify China attempting to censor the topic of freedom, and I never said I did.
Breakfast served all day!
I guess I wasn't clear, but the US (government) shouldn't be telling other countries what to do when they have problems of their own to fix.
This is the enlightened multicultural version of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". No government is or will ever be perfect, so your view amounts to forbidding criticism of any other government ever, and that's just silly. Yes, the US government sometimes violates the rights of its citizens, and yes, it's gotten worse after 9/11, but it is *nowhere near* as bad as tyrannies like China, Saudi Arabia, and North Korea.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
And the problem is people remain lax and keep on saying the same thing: "Well, we're still better off than China/North Korea, so that's fine I guess", as more and more rights keep on being swept from under their feet. They do nothing to counteract it, and before they know it, the country they're in will end up being as bad, if not worse, than the tyrannies that they were criticizing all this time.
Because of Israel and this whole conflict, Palestinians for the first time in history will get their own country.
Hmm... this is so wrong, I'm not sure where to begin. You need a history lesson.
And by your own standards, isn't it possible that the US has decided that Israel is playing it "fairer"?
The US has decided that Israel is a productive weapons purchaser and a sufficient regional hegemon to keep the oil flowing from its neighbors. Nothing more, nothing less, and even the second part is questionable.
The fact that Israelis get so uppity about it, like they're God's chosen fucking people or something, makes us question whether giving them the ability to defend themselves was such a great idea. Israel obviously can't handle the responsibility of owning Apache helicopters and Patriot missiles and not using them.
Israel's handling of the Palestinians has been embarrassing. They can't even build a fence without trying to cheat the Palestinians out of more land and drawing more ire. The concept of "defense" is completely foreign to their "defense" force. IDF can't take incoming pebbles without returning fire on civilians, can't manage to keep explosive-laced terrorists from penetrating their "border", and can't restrain themselves from invading Palestinian homes for the sole purpose of seeing what's on the tele.
That having been said, things generally seem to be moving in the right direction. Lets hope the eyes of the world and 140,000 American "helpers" can convince all sides to develop clear borders and stay within them.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
Words don't kill people, people's actions or choices do.
If sedition is so harmless, why is it illegal? If you speak the wrong words, the FBI will come and lock you up, for reasons of "national security". Heck, if you teach the wrong group of foreigners about modern cryptography, you're breaking the law.
Just yesterday, a article that was delibarately censored by the military finally was published: sixty years later. In the USA, the wrong words clearly are considered harmful.
--
AC
"Are you completely nuts?"
No, I don't think so. Maybe a little prone to hysteria sometimes, but no more so than your average Joe.
"You DO realize that suicide bombers seek out crowded areas and then blow themselves up along with as many innocent civilians as possible? I fail to see how that doesn't "involve more death" nor do I see how it is a fair solution."
Just to be clear about this, I did not say the suicide bombers are justified. What they do is just as bad as when Israel attacks them. What needs to happen is both sides need to stop, and until at least one side does this thing will escalate as more and more other nations are brought in to the conflict.
The question of who is innocent in this I do not understand. If one side or the other would refrain from terrorism, only then could they claim innocence. What we have now is two guilty parties arguing politics while real people suffer on both sides.
I agree with your sentiments against terrorism completely.
For example, I could say "He's not fit to sleep with a pig", then, when he complains, say, "Okay, he is fit to sleep with a pig. My bad.", or words to that effect.
If there is truth to these accusations that the Chinese government is intimidating citizens of my country in any way for something such as practicing Falun Gong, then we have a serious problem that need s addressing.
I'm in no way in favour of military action, but this is clearly and act of war on their part if it is true.
No, it isn't. An "act of war" is when soldiers force their way across your borders, and attack your people. When that happens, and only when that happens, are you justified in marching your soldiers across their land, and attacking their people.
This is just plain international crime; if you voluntarily allow someone into your country, you can't piss and moan because they're there. If they break one of your laws, you arrest them, like you would any other criminal. Your recognize that your laws don't exceed your borders: and you keep a careful watch on them for that reason.
If you send your military out to attack another country because of a crime that someone who came from that country committed while they were visiting, that is an act of war. You can tell, what with the soldiers, and the invading, and the attacking, and all...
Sheesh... kids these days have heard the term "war" so badly misused that they don't even recognize it!
"War on Drugs. War on Poverty. War on Illiteracy". Now that the "War on Terror" really is a war, with real, live soldiers out killing real, live civilians, the kids are so conditioned that they don't realize that "war" isn't a natural state for a nation to be in.
*sigh*
There is no point to this post, other than to point out the abuse of language that's been ongoing for the last ten years. Sometimes I wonder if it's all be deliberate...
Mod parent up - "rights" are socially constructed - they are agreed by a group of people - a society. Try arguing your rights to the local wildlife if you're the only person stranded on a proverbial desert island. But I don't think any rights are inalienable and universal: look throughout history, and even in the present you'll find differing opinions, even including the right to kill others without reasonable justification - (murder to you might be a reasonable political/military /religious/personal act to another). As parent notes, it's a whole grey area.
"you should do some reading about the '48, '67, and '73 wars. They are wars of aggression and conquest launched by Israel's Arab neighbors."
1946 until now, looks to me like someone has an unfair advantage. They've got friends, you've got friends. It's a damn shame they have to be mutually exclusive. The crusades were a great plague on the region, and so is war from Arab allies.
"You should also look at Barak's peace offer. It's a great deal."
Errrmmm.. Yeah, generous. Wow.
Now we don't just have a bunch of US/UK/whatever bloggers boring us with their mundane personal crap, now we have to find out about a few billion other people's issues with dairy products, their take on Episode III and other nonsense...
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
Just a bit of paranoia to consider.
I don't mind pissing off a government like China by hosting their citizen's rant that "we're not free".
What gives me pause is if I open up my server, abet even just one directory, for anyone to use as a host, what's to protect me from bad people using it to host material that could get me arrested in my own country.
If it's a matter of free speech I'm all for that. But, once I open up my server, what if it turns out I'm hosting material plans for the next 9/11? I don't think I'm comfortable with level of risk.
I might be able to beat it given the chance to explain. But what are the odds I'd even get a trial? I'd just disappear and never be heard from again.
Hmm... this is so wrong, I'm not sure where to begin. You need a history lesson.
You can begin by telling me when there was ever a palestinian nation.
Israel's handling of the Palestinians has been embarrassing. They can't even build a fence without trying to cheat the Palestinians out of more land and drawing more ire. The concept of "defense" is completely foreign to their "defense" force. IDF can't take incoming pebbles without returning fire on civilians, can't manage to keep explosive-laced terrorists from penetrating their "border", and can't restrain themselves from invading Palestinian homes for the sole purpose of seeing what's on the tele
You are so full of it. The IDF are one of the best anti-terrorist forces in the world. Nothing I say will convince you of that but you're just fucking ignorant. It's not easy to defend against terrorists when you're trying to guarantee everyone's liberties.
I'm not sure what exactly it is about this comment that offended you so much CowBoyNeal, but I'm sorry to hear that you feel so strongly about it as to make me your foe.
It's unfortunate that you have to hide behind your semi-anonymous troll account rather than enter into discussion about what exactly the disagreement is.
I wish you all the best.
"It's not easy to defend against terrorists when you're trying to guarantee everyone's liberties."
Doesn't it seem a bit unfair to expect those liberties, if you aren't prepared to grant them to everyone?
I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I am against Israel, because I'm not. I'm against the conflict.
"A trade embargo is not going to make China change it's policy on internet content filtering."
If China wants to try and filter the Internet, they are free to do so. It's the detainment and intimidation of citizens of foreign countries that I have a really big problem with.
-Chaim Weizmann, first president of israel
Start reading.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
Compared to the utter crap that happened during the Cultural Revolution, I'm sure the Chinese people are quite happy about the current government. The thing is that it is changing (compared to a few decades ago for example), and government figures have indicated a desire for democracy in the future. However, if they change too quickly they risk rebellion and instability which really won't help the people in the long term (look at Russia or most of the regime changes the US helped).
For now the current government is bringing economic prosperity and all its side-effects (which is what most people really care about, freedom is secondary to a full stomach), such as education which probably will cause changes on its own. That's probably why the government is so open to change, they understand that if they maintain the current policies and growth there will be change whether they like it or not. They may as well make the change as pain free as possible, which in the end is also good for them (messy change generally involves the death/exile of numerous leaders).
What's this got to do with China not respecting the borders of sovereign nations?
but this is clearly and act of war on their part if it is true
Looking at how the recent US-conducted wars have been going, you'd better think a bit more than twice before saying such things. War is not the answer to a lot of things. Find another way to test your weapons.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
"you'd better think a bit more than twice before saying such things. War is not the answer to a lot of things.
You should have quoted the beginning of that..
I'm in no way in favour of military action
If you are allowed to use any reasonable form of encryption - SSL, SSH tunnel - then censorship is basically impossible. This is why attempts to censor or block access invariably go hand in hand with efforts to outlaw encryption.
you had me at #!