Uh huh, because my customers are clamoring for SQEMA, whatever that is.
Here's a challenge for you: take 10 years and make an applet system which
doesn't hose the browser it runs in, and runs fast. Oh! You did it! Wait,
that's flash, not java.
Java failed because it's slow. I know how you java lovers love to pull out
your benchmarks and talk about how fast it "really" is, but every time most
of us touch it, it's _slow_.
Applets are a perfect example. They're slow, brutally slow, and they take up
oodles of ram sometimes even after a page has been closed. Oh, if it doesn't crash the browser first. "Hello world!". And I want this running server side because... ?
Someone always talks about how fast java is except for startup times. Yeah, and
my house would smell good if it weren't for the elephant pooping in the living
room.
A webserver (or whatever the java name for it is) shouldn't take 10 minutes
to start. And eclipse is wonderful if you don't mind sacrificing most of your
system ram for it. That's called bad coding. Nothing should take 20 trillion instructions to boot. Yeah, I'm sure those problem have been solved somewhere too.
The problem is you don't need a ton of negative exposure to apply the "sucks" label to something, and java has earned it in spades.
There are very good reasons not to. Thus, dogma.
My argument is "everyone else does it the other way, maybe
being flexible would be good."
Your argument is "I am right and my way is good, so there shouldn't
be any other way". That's Guido's argument too.
The fact that whitespace is dogmatized by the pyhon community makes the community itself less attractive, and the language because of it. It sends the message that it doesn't really matter what you want, the language is perfect and your code is crap because you are too stupid to agree with how right the community is.
Guido could _easily_ put in some sort of pragma to allow other types of blocks, it's only a matter of arrogance that stops him- coding with whitespace is the "right" way to do it.
There's also the matter of the parser. The last time I used Python everything was a syntax error, which gave little indication what was actually wrong with a piece of code.
That sounds reasonable, however because perl is so flexible the intent of a programmer is much more difficult to decipher because there are so many ways of accomplishing the same thing. It truly lends itself to spagghetti code in a way other languages don't.
I wish that weren't the case. It's definitely possible to write good, maintainable perl. But it's the exception, not the rule. 10000 lines of the average perl program are much harder to read than the equivalent in e.g. python.
Good thing java has garbage collection unlike those lesser languages!
That sure helps keep memory usage low!
Things I !@$!@$!$@!@ hate about java: $CLASSPATH. It's slow. Memory
Frigging Pig. Jsp (hint: slow, memory pig). Zealots who point to benchmarks to point out how fast it is. It's not. It's slow, go
ask your users. Oh, you quadrupled your memory and CPU and now it
seems almost snappy? Good job.
How about another couple abstraction layers? Maybe that will hurry
things up.
Yeah, I'm sure I sound like a troll. But really, it's just from my own humble experiences with the language.
And you'd be wrong, too. Wicca, despite new-age flap to the contrary, does not and has not ever existed as a "real" religion in any reasonable sense. Modern "Wicca" is a sort of amalgamtion of made up and dimly understood Goddess worship beliefs.
s/dess// and you have most modern belief systems. Especially in the "reasonable sense" category.
The Internet is like Baghdad for computers but 10000 times more intense.
that analogy is in poor taste. i am in baghdad right now. people are dying here every day. your computer getting pwn3d is in no way similar; although i do understand you were merely trying to give an idea of the likelihood for danger. no harm, no foul. please be more considerate in the future.
"Intense" was a poor choice of words, and the phrasing could have been better. I do feel the analogy (frequency of attack, as you state) is correct, though poorly stated.
No offense was intended for the men and women serving their country in Iraq, nor was it my intent to compare the feeling of intensity from being in a war zone to the relatively trivial task of computer maintenance.
I was referring to the intensity of the attacks, not an emotional "intense" feeling.
Also, while the attacks may be attacks may be virtual, they have a pronounced effect on the practical application of the computer itself. So regardless of whether or not the viruses are "imaginary", their effects on productivity are not.
That's not a reasonable analogy. This is more like the car is broken into within 26 minutes.
The Internet is like Baghdad for computers but 10000 times more intense.
The operating system doesn't merely fall apart - it's broken apart by the equivalent of roaming street thugs.
I agree that microsoft it partially responsible (does rpc really need to be accessible by default?) - but on the other hand, until very recently your average linux install didn't take long to get 0wn3d either.
Additionally the benchmarks are biased against interpreted languages. Somehow Java gets a pass on its snail like startup time, but the same is not done for perl, python, etc.
How dare you actually answer the question! Where are your useless conjectures and obligatory points about how what the original poster wants to do is stupid?
Why is dumping nuke waste in the oceans a bad idea?
No, seriously.. if we dumped it in the middle of the pacific spread over several hundred square miles and not all piled in a single spot, what's the harm? Isn't there naturally radioactive material down there anyway?
At extreme depths there shouldn't be any noticeable radiation even if you did pile it all in one spot.
Actually, there is a term - it's called "beefing it up". Now theoretically this means doing actual work to make a car go faster, but in reality it's almost always the American equivalent to ricing.
Btw, that answers the question about what we stereotypically eat, too.
On the face of it this sounds pretty reasonable. The corporations which run this country have done a good job of making this view very popular. This works well in their favor, since the vast majority of Fortune 500 companies pay less in taxes than you (a single person) pay. I'm not just talking federal income tax either. Most of them are incorporated in Delaware which doesn't require them to pay State taxes either. This seems pretty consistant, since if they can't be expected to support their country why support the specific state?
Sure, the corporation's money trickles down. Not always back to anyone here in the U.S., but it does go somewhere some time. Doesn't my money do this? My money trickles back to other people and heck back to the corporations too. Maybe I shouldn't have to pay taxes either.
Oh, and how about the really rich people who pay so much of our tax burden, like the CEOs at those companies? Don't they pay more than their share? Well, no, as it turns out. Those people tend to have a significant stake in the _ownership_ of companies - their own and others. The income they earn for this, excluding that which they shelter, is taxed at a much lower rate. Don't be surprised if you find out your local billionaire pays much less in taxes than you do on a percentage basis. At least they are still paying some, thanks to the failure of the crooks in washington to completely dissolve the dividend tax.
The really unfortunate truth of this perception about tax is that taxes are important to a strong civic base. Yes, there is some government waste. However, consider how much or your hard earned $$ goes toward health care. Wouldn't you rather have a smaller amount go to state provided health care and not worry about what happens if you are unemployed for a long period, e.g.?
Are you glad we have services such as police, schools, public parks, and libraries? Me too. I'd love to be able to afford all these things on my own. But since I can't I'm glad I'm part of a community which supports these things. Would I rather have more money in my pocket or good schools and services? I would, but I can't speak for you. And no, the money doesn't all go down a rat hole. By and large it goes back in to the community where it creates jobs, etc.
But yes, I would like money in my pocket. According to the world bank, I should be making about 140,000 for my family of 4 to receive a mean average wage according to the USA per capita. Now, as a single person you may be doing that, but the vast majority of americans are nowhere near that level. So where is the money all going? To the government in the form of taxes?
Do you really think the rich care about how many jobs they create? Uh huh, that's what I thought. Now, let's consider your local mayor. Do you think he/she cares? Will the mayor have a job after the town is downsized, or will he be congratulated for boosting the bottom line for shareholders?
Wake up, my friends. Neither your bad cop republican oil baron nor good cop democratic billionaire are on your side. You jobs are heading to poor foreign people with no political power while you are losing the domestic economic battle.
Progressive taxes are how we keep the rich from dominating us, not the tool they use to beat us down.
What really grates on me about the python indentation thing is not that it exists, rather that the python users are so dogmatic about it.
Would it really kill them to provide a pragma to use curly blocks like the rest of the sane universe? Why not be a little less inflexible and let people code how they want?
The feature I want in a language is a little less specific: Let me program how I want as opposed to enforcing some arbitrary pet style of your own.
After a bit of researching I also picked up a canon (i550 model). How refreshing to see the ink cartridges are just that - not cartridges + printheads + drm chips.
The print quality is very good for the price (US $110 or so for the 550) and the inks are sold separately _for each color_ to save you money if one color runs out faster than the others. If you are really a cheap bastard you can use third party ink refilling kits without worry, but I've found the quality to be slightly better using the real canon inks.
Best part - a manufacturer original black ink cartridge costs $15 at normal retail. Try finding that for your lexmark or xerox or hp. There are third party knockoff cartridges even cheaper, but they may not print as well on e.g. glossy photo paper.
The i550 is slightly cheaper than the real "photo quality" ones that have special photo color inks in addition to the regular cmy ink. If you are a real photo quality nut you probably want one of those.
I would buy another one in a heartbeat. Screw all those greedy customer screwing "but look how cheap the printer is" bait and switch bastard manufacturers.
Arrgh! HTML formatting by default bites! Here it is properly formatted.
There are those of us who think whitespace delimitation stinks, and for very valid reasons.
Rather than be such zealots about how super whitespace delimiting is and how clueless the rest of the world is for not agreeing about it, why don't the python folks just code an option to make it available by e.g. a pragma at the top of a file? In my opinion, and that of many, many people, it's a show stopper.
I really wish there wasn't so much zealotry in programming language design. That goes for all programming languages unfortunately.
There are those of us who think whitespace delimitation stinks, and for very valid reasons.
Rather than be such zealots about how super whitespace delimiting is and how clueless the rest of the world is for not agreeing about it, why don't the python folks just code an option to make it available by e.g. a pragma at the top of a file? In my opinion, and that of many, many people, it's a show stopper.
I really wish there wasn't so much zealotry in programming language design. That goes for all programming languages unfortunately.
You forgot about massive bloat and overall brokenness, though those could be construed as implementation details, or perhaps features.
There are, after all, java implementations that are small (not garbage collections.. err.. don't have garbage collection), as well as ones featuring multiple inheritance rather than the *SUCKY* "interface" thing, whereby _the programmer_ is forced to to loads of extra work because of deficiencies in the language. Tell me again why this is so much better than C++?
There's also the fact that it still crashes my web browser nearly 10 years after its release upon the public. Oh, and every 0.01 rev of the language makes it necessary to have a different JRE to run different applets and/or applications.
But yes, there is the speed issue. Why a language would be so low level in terms of its incredibly pedantic syntax and yet so slow to run boggles the mind. Look, the whole idea of using a crappy pedantic language is that it lets the computer RUN FAST. That's why assembly language still exists.
No, I'm not a C/C++ freak, I'm a perl freak. Yeah, perl is a gross disgusting mess, and kinda slow too. But it's a *POWERFUL* language that makes my life easier. I _want_ the computer to think for me, and waste its cycles rather than mine. That's the point of a computer, right?
Oh yeah, and java isn't cross platform, at least not nearly as cross platform as perl, python, tcl, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. So what's the point again?
Java applications are slow and bloated. Whoops, I mentioned speed again. Of course that's the fault of some sting or swing or awt or twat library and not the JRE or the application or Sun or you or me. I DON'T CARE. IT SUCKS ASS AND IT'S ALSO SLOW. My other apps don't suck ass and aren't slow and also don't chug down most of my system swap. Whoopty doo for your garbage collection. Did I mention the excessive bloat? Collect that garbage.
Java is like the emacs of programming languages without the bonus of it having complex and theoretically useful functionality.
Java would have rightfully died by now without the massive push by Sun.
Whatever. I'm sure I'll get modded down as a troll by the java weenies, but it really and truly amazes me how much momentum such unfortunate "technology" has. Can't it just die an unpleasant death like WAP instead of lingering like COBOL?
Ok, so there are two things in java that don't suck: Exceptions. Those are cool, or at least can be made cool if properly caught and processed. Also the type checking can be nice because the compiler will catch errors, though it's sort of a double sword because it makes programming brutal and byzantine. Hmm, guess that makes one thing cool. Well, I tried. Oh wait. Microsoft doesn't like it. There, that's two.
PS. CLASSPATH sucks my nutsack. ARRGH!!! PPS. In C I say LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/opt/foo/lib and it will _look in all the libraries in the directory_ for what it needs. java requires every single jar file to be listed in the CLASSPATH. Oh and then the paths interfere with one another so each application has to set its own CLASSPATH. Back to shell programming we go.
Clinton had to sign off of the deal, and Verio
has a bigger backbone than Global Crossing
Having worked for both Global Crossing and Verio, I can assure you that that this is an incorrect statement, or at least was at the time of the NTT deal.
Slashdot Mirror
Looks like it might have a headphone jack too. No wonder they're comparing it to a phone instead of other laptops.
Here's a challenge for you: take 10 years and make an applet system which doesn't hose the browser it runs in, and runs fast. Oh! You did it! Wait, that's flash, not java.
Applets are a perfect example. They're slow, brutally slow, and they take up oodles of ram sometimes even after a page has been closed. Oh, if it doesn't crash the browser first. "Hello world!". And I want this running server side because... ?
Someone always talks about how fast java is except for startup times. Yeah, and my house would smell good if it weren't for the elephant pooping in the living room.
A webserver (or whatever the java name for it is) shouldn't take 10 minutes to start. And eclipse is wonderful if you don't mind sacrificing most of your system ram for it. That's called bad coding. Nothing should take 20 trillion instructions to boot. Yeah, I'm sure those problem have been solved somewhere too.
The problem is you don't need a ton of negative exposure to apply the "sucks" label to something, and java has earned it in spades.
There are very good reasons not to. Thus, dogma. My argument is "everyone else does it the other way, maybe being flexible would be good." Your argument is "I am right and my way is good, so there shouldn't be any other way". That's Guido's argument too.
The fact that whitespace is dogmatized by the pyhon community makes the community
itself less attractive, and the language because of it. It sends the message that
it doesn't really matter what you want, the language is perfect and your code
is crap because you are too stupid to agree with how right the community is.
Guido could _easily_ put in some sort of pragma to allow other types of blocks, it's
only a matter of arrogance that stops him- coding with whitespace is the "right" way to do it.
There's also the matter of the parser. The last time I used Python everything was a syntax error, which gave little indication what was actually wrong with a piece of
code.
That sounds reasonable, however because perl is so flexible the intent of a programmer
is much more difficult to decipher because there are so many ways of accomplishing the same thing. It truly lends itself to spagghetti code in a way other languages don't.
I wish that weren't the case. It's definitely possible to write good, maintainable perl. But it's the exception, not the rule. 10000 lines of the average perl program are much harder to read than the equivalent in e.g. python.
Just my experience.
Things I !@$!@$!$@!@ hate about java: $CLASSPATH. It's slow. Memory Frigging Pig. Jsp (hint: slow, memory pig). Zealots who point to benchmarks to point out how fast it is. It's not. It's slow, go ask your users. Oh, you quadrupled your memory and CPU and now it seems almost snappy? Good job.
How about another couple abstraction layers? Maybe that will hurry things up.
Yeah, I'm sure I sound like a troll. But really, it's just from my own humble experiences with the language.
s/dess// and you have most modern belief systems. Especially in the "reasonable sense" category.
that analogy is in poor taste. i am in baghdad right now. people are dying here every day. your computer getting pwn3d is in no way similar; although i do understand you were merely trying to give an idea of the likelihood for danger. no harm, no foul. please be more considerate in the future.
"Intense" was a poor choice of words, and the phrasing could have been better. I do feel the analogy (frequency of attack, as you state) is correct, though poorly stated.
No offense was intended for the men and women serving their country in Iraq, nor was it my intent to compare the feeling of intensity from being in a war zone to the relatively trivial task of computer maintenance.
My apologies for the lack of clarity.
Austin
I was referring to the intensity of the attacks, not an emotional "intense" feeling.
Also, while the attacks may be attacks may be virtual, they have a pronounced effect on the practical application of the computer itself. So regardless of whether or not the viruses are "imaginary", their effects on productivity are not.
That's not a reasonable analogy. This is more like the car is broken into within 26 minutes.
The Internet is like Baghdad for computers but 10000 times more intense.
The operating system doesn't merely fall apart - it's broken apart by the equivalent of roaming street thugs.
I agree that microsoft it partially responsible (does rpc really need to be accessible by default?) - but on the other hand, until very recently your average linux install didn't take long to get 0wn3d either.
Additionally the benchmarks are biased against interpreted languages. Somehow Java gets a pass on its snail like startup time, but the same is not done for perl, python, etc.
How dare you actually answer the question! Where are your useless conjectures and obligatory points about how what the original poster wants to do is stupid?
Mod parent down!
Perl has ordered hashes, just not as part of the core language. I use Tie::LLHash all the time in my code, e.g.
If two people replace computers, one 2x as often
as the other, the ratio is 2:1, not 3:1. You
therefore have market shares of 66.7% and 33.3%.
> Only half of the students said newspapers should
> be allowed to publish freely without government
> approval of stories
Maybe the kids thought the question was whether or not newspapers could publish without _corporate_ approval of stories.
Why is dumping nuke waste in the oceans a bad idea?
No, seriously.. if we dumped it in the middle of the pacific spread over several hundred square miles and not all piled in a single spot, what's the harm? Isn't there naturally radioactive material down there anyway?
At extreme depths there shouldn't be any noticeable radiation even if you did pile it all in one spot.
Actually, there is a term - it's called "beefing it up". Now theoretically this means doing actual work to make a car go faster, but in reality it's almost always the American equivalent to ricing.
Btw, that answers the question about what we stereotypically eat, too.
On the face of it this sounds pretty reasonable. The corporations which run this country have done a good job of making this view very popular. This works well in their favor, since the vast majority of Fortune 500 companies pay less in taxes than you (a single person) pay. I'm not just talking federal income tax either. Most of them are incorporated in Delaware which doesn't require them to pay State taxes either. This seems pretty consistant, since if they can't be expected to support their country why support the specific state?
Sure, the corporation's money trickles down. Not always back to anyone here in the U.S., but it does go somewhere some time. Doesn't my money do this? My money trickles back to other people and heck back to the corporations too. Maybe I shouldn't have to pay taxes either.
Oh, and how about the really rich people who pay so much of our tax burden, like the CEOs at those companies? Don't they pay more than their share? Well, no, as it turns out. Those people tend to have a significant stake in the _ownership_ of companies - their own and others. The income they earn for this, excluding that which they shelter, is taxed at a much lower rate. Don't be surprised if you find out your local billionaire pays much less in taxes than you do on a percentage basis. At least they are still paying some, thanks to the failure of the crooks in washington to completely dissolve the dividend tax.
The really unfortunate truth of this perception about tax is that taxes are important to a strong civic base. Yes, there is some government waste. However, consider how much or your hard earned $$ goes toward health care. Wouldn't you rather have a smaller amount go to state provided health care and not worry about what happens if you are unemployed for a long period, e.g.?
Are you glad we have services such as police, schools, public parks, and libraries? Me too. I'd love to be able to afford all these things on my own. But since I can't I'm glad I'm part of a community which supports these things. Would I rather have more money in my pocket or good schools and services? I would, but I can't speak for you. And no, the money doesn't all go down a rat hole. By and large it goes back in to the community where it creates jobs, etc.
But yes, I would like money in my pocket. According to the world bank, I should be making about 140,000 for my family of 4 to receive a mean average wage according to the USA per capita. Now, as a single person you may be doing that, but the vast majority of americans are nowhere near that level. So where is the money all going? To the government in the form of taxes?
Do you really think the rich care about how many jobs they create? Uh huh, that's what I thought. Now, let's consider your local mayor. Do you think
he/she cares? Will the mayor have a job after the town is downsized, or will he be congratulated for boosting the bottom line for shareholders?
Wake up, my friends. Neither your bad cop republican oil baron nor good cop democratic billionaire are on your side. You jobs are heading to poor foreign people with no political power while you are losing the domestic economic battle.
Progressive taxes are how we keep the rich from dominating us, not the tool they use to beat us down.
What really grates on me about the python indentation thing is not that it exists, rather that the python users are so dogmatic about it.
Would it really kill them to provide a pragma to use curly blocks like the rest of the sane universe? Why not be a little less inflexible and let people code how they want?
The feature I want in a language is a little less specific: Let me program how I want as opposed to enforcing some arbitrary pet style of your own.
After a bit of researching I also picked up a canon (i550 model). How refreshing to see the ink cartridges are just that - not cartridges + printheads + drm chips.
The print quality is very good for the price (US $110 or so for the 550) and the inks are sold separately _for each color_ to save you money if one color runs out faster than the others. If you are really a cheap bastard you can use third party ink refilling kits without worry, but I've found the quality to be slightly better using the real canon inks.
Best part - a manufacturer original black ink cartridge costs $15 at normal retail. Try finding that for your lexmark or xerox or hp. There are third party knockoff cartridges even cheaper, but they may not print as well on e.g. glossy photo paper.
The i550 is slightly cheaper than the real "photo quality" ones that have special photo color inks in addition to the regular cmy ink. If you are a real photo quality nut you probably want one of those.
I would buy another one in a heartbeat. Screw all those greedy customer screwing "but look how cheap the printer is" bait and switch bastard manufacturers.
Arrgh! HTML formatting by default bites! Here it is properly formatted.
There are those of us who think whitespace
delimitation stinks, and for very valid reasons.
Rather than be such zealots about how super whitespace delimiting is and how clueless the rest of the world is for not agreeing about it, why don't the python folks just code an option to make it available by e.g. a pragma at the top of a file? In my opinion, and that of many, many people, it's a show stopper.
I really wish there wasn't so much zealotry in programming language design. That goes for all programming languages unfortunately.
There are those of us who think whitespace delimitation stinks, and for very valid reasons. Rather than be such zealots about how super whitespace delimiting is and how clueless the rest of the world is for not agreeing about it, why don't the python folks just code an option to make it available by e.g. a pragma at the top of a file? In my opinion, and that of many, many people, it's a show stopper. I really wish there wasn't so much zealotry in programming language design. That goes for all programming languages unfortunately.
You forgot about massive bloat and overall brokenness, though those could be construed as implementation details, or perhaps features.
There are, after all, java implementations that are small (not garbage collections.. err.. don't have garbage collection), as well as ones featuring multiple inheritance rather than the *SUCKY* "interface" thing, whereby _the programmer_ is forced to to loads of extra work because of deficiencies in the language. Tell me again why this is so much better than C++?
There's also the fact that it still crashes my web browser nearly 10 years after its release upon the public. Oh, and every 0.01 rev of the language makes it necessary to have a different JRE to run different applets and/or applications.
But yes, there is the speed issue. Why a language would be so low level in terms of its incredibly pedantic syntax and yet so slow to run boggles the mind. Look, the whole idea of using a crappy pedantic language is that it lets the computer RUN FAST. That's why assembly language still exists.
No, I'm not a C/C++ freak, I'm a perl freak. Yeah, perl is a gross disgusting mess, and kinda slow too. But it's a *POWERFUL* language that makes my life easier. I _want_ the computer to think for me, and waste its cycles rather than mine. That's the point of a computer, right?
Oh yeah, and java isn't cross platform, at least not nearly as cross platform as perl, python, tcl, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. So what's the point again?
Java applications are slow and bloated. Whoops, I mentioned speed again. Of course that's the fault of some sting or swing or awt or twat library and not the JRE or the application or Sun or you or me. I DON'T CARE. IT SUCKS ASS AND IT'S ALSO SLOW.
My other apps don't suck ass and aren't slow and also don't chug down most of my system swap. Whoopty doo for your garbage collection. Did I mention the excessive bloat? Collect that garbage.
Java is like the emacs of programming languages without the bonus of it having complex and theoretically useful functionality.
Java would have rightfully died by now without the massive push by Sun.
Whatever. I'm sure I'll get modded down as a troll by the java weenies, but it really and truly amazes me how much momentum such unfortunate "technology" has. Can't it just die an unpleasant death like WAP instead of lingering like COBOL?
Ok, so there are two things in java that don't suck: Exceptions. Those are cool, or at least can be made cool if properly caught and processed. Also the type checking can be nice because the compiler will catch errors, though it's sort of a double sword because it makes programming brutal and byzantine. Hmm, guess that makes one thing cool. Well, I tried. Oh wait. Microsoft doesn't like it. There, that's two.
PS. CLASSPATH sucks my nutsack. ARRGH!!!
PPS. In C I say LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/opt/foo/lib and it will _look in all the libraries in the directory_ for what it needs. java requires every single jar file to be listed in the CLASSPATH. Oh and then the paths interfere with one another so each application has to set its own CLASSPATH. Back to shell programming we go.
ARRGH! I hate Java!
Clinton had to sign off of the deal, and Verio has a bigger backbone than Global Crossing Having worked for both Global Crossing and Verio, I can assure you that that this is an incorrect statement, or at least was at the time of the NTT deal.