Check http://c133.org/kiwi-0.2.tar.bz2 for a preview of what we're working on (Shamyl Zakariya and I are working on this one... we're both doing some improvements that aren't released yet, and we know there are a few bugs, but it's somewhat usable already)
And what did you expect it to cling to? Traditional VMS? Don't forget that FreeBSD IS UNIX. FreeBSD is a direct descendent of the code from the original 4.4BSD. THIS IS UNIX. Love it or leave it.
(Personally, I love FreeBSD and 5.0 kicks major ass. Linux is cool, but I use Gentoo, which is arguably more BSD-like than any of the other distros except for maybe Slackware.)
Re: Random complaints
on
KDE 3.1 Released
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· Score: 2, Informative
In case you're not familiar with the KDE binary packaging policy, let me make it more familiar to you.
KDE provides source packages. That's it. We give source to users and developers and everyone else in the world. But the way that we do it, we give the source packages to the distribution maintainers first, and we let them know loud and clear that it is 100% their responsibility to package KDE properly for their distro. SuSE understands this; Mandrake understands this; Slackware understands this, Debian understands this; hell, even Gentoo understands this, and Gentoo hasn't even been a real distro for a year yet.
RedHat does NOT do their users the service of providing binary packages. That's fine, but YOU don't have to listen to all of the RedHat users bitching and complaining that they don't get to run the latest KDE, and their friends running SuSE and Mandrake do, and that's not fair, and KDE is anti-RedHat.
If RedHat would do the same for KDE as any one of the other distros does, that would please me to no end. Instead, they take our source code, they strip out the information about the project that provides it, they ruin our desktop by adding hacks to Qt that make it more unstable, they ship pre-release versions of the base libraries and applications that comprise the entire system, and I'm supposed to be happy with that? Please.
I was only responding in kind to Black Parrot's post where he claimed that KDE developers are a bunch of "fucking crybabies" when in fact RedHat does everyone a disservice and you people can't climb over eachother fast enough to kiss their ass when they do.
Re:Longtime GNOMEr Ready to Try
on
KDE 3.1 Released
·
· Score: 3, Insightful
Sounds useful. I can't make any promises, but that sounds like something we'll want in KMail. (KMail is currently a developer no-man's-land, or at least it was last time I checked... that place is like a war zone).
But if nothing else, I'll bring your idea up with a few of the KMail devs and see what they think. That is, if the feature isn't already planned (seems sort of obvious, now that I think about it.)
Re:But what I am rellay looking forward to...
on
KDE 3.1 Released
·
· Score: 2, Informative
Since I'm not Dave Hyatt or Dirk Mueller, I really don't know how much of the communication going on is private mail and how much is on the mailing lists. However, I do keep tabs on what Dave says about Safari over at his blog.
As far as the KHTML side, I just keep watching CVS and I've lost count of how many messages I've seen marked with "merge from safari". It's amazing. Within two weeks of Apple's announcement, half of the code had already been imported back into the main tree and the Safari guys had picked up the new table rendering code on their end.
So subscribe to kde-cvs@kde.org and check Dave's blog, or check the kde-cvs digests (dot.kde.org links to them every time they come out) since kde-cvs is extremely heavy traffic-wise. That's the best way I know of to keep up to date on this info.
Re:Longtime GNOMEr Ready to Try
on
KDE 3.1 Released
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· Score: 1
Well, maybe not every single one of the posts was polite (Black Parrot really got to me with his little "Fucking KDE crybabies" comment, and my response wasn't exactly nice) but you have no idea how long I've been waiting for this release. I'm actually really really proud of all of the stuff we've got in 3.1 (and I'll be the first to admit that my contributions thus far are quite small, but I'm a part of it).
I should probably send an email to Scott about that (the adopt-a-geek thing). I don't really need new hardware, but it'd be nice to be able to have a cluster of KDE-building machines. The idea of being able to use distcc and build KDE in less than 8 hours is quite tantalizing...
Personally, I would be all for such an effort. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the FreeDesktop.org guys were already working on something like this (I don't follow their efforts too closely, though, so I don't know if they are or not.)
I'm not trying to make any digs here, but the big problem with that is that the Mozilla guys will likely ignore any such standards anyway. They don't bother to adhere to any other UI standards (Mac, Windows, KDE, or GNOME anyway) and they can't be bothered to use standard libs on any of the systems that they run on, nor can they use a standard toolkit or a standard component model. The Mozilla guys seem to be quite content ignoring all the existing standards and implementing their own (except when it comes to the W3C standards, in which case the Mozilla guys adhere to them quite admirably.)
But I doubt that there's any easy way to get the Mozilla guys in on such an effort.
Re:Longtime GNOMEr Ready to Try
on
KDE 3.1 Released
·
· Score: 1
KMail will be more fully integrated into the addressbook, but I have no idea exactly what you mean by 'support for the vcard things' so I can't really answer that.
However, if the addressbook has support for it, KMail should inherit that support simply by virtue of code-sharing and reuse. KDE is a really nice example of not only a great and successful Open Source project, but a really well-architected and very impressive Object Oriented framework with a very nice design (well, in most areas).
If you can be more specific, I can try to give you a better answer.
Re: Random complaints
on
KDE 3.1 Released
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· Score: 0, Flamebait
Right.
RedHat posts KDE 3.1 beta snapshot RPMs, for a beta release of their distro, provides no guarantees that these RPMs will even install (let alone WORK) on the latest RELEASED version of their distro, and that's support?
Fucking RedHat apologists.
Re:But what I am rellay looking forward to...
on
KDE 3.1 Released
·
· Score: 2, Informative
Actually, it is rather IE-like.:)
However, this is slightly different from kdeinit because kdeinit preloads the libraries into RAM so that process initialization takes less time, while this actually keeps the last Konq process open and the next time a 'start Konqueror' request is interpreted, it sends a message to the sleeping process saying "HEY! Open a new window!"
Since opening a new window takes exponentially less time than linking and loading a new Konqueror process (and since prelinking isn't quite finished yet) this makes Konqueror appear to launch much faster, but again, it's not really "launching" anymore.
Also, it's configurable so that you can say "Ok, instead of just one, I want you to keep at most 2 [3,4,x] of these processes alive." Of course, this means that the processes stay alive and continue to eat RAM while they are, but if you don't use Konq for a while they'll get swapped out to VM. It's still faster than launching a process cold, though.
Re:But what I am rellay looking forward to...
on
KDE 3.1 Released
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
Any web page that has valid HTML and doesn't render properly in Konqueror should be reported as a bug.
If the web page has invalid HTML, we really shouldn't have to care about whether or not it renders "properly" since it wasn't written "properly" - but even a very large majority of those pages are displayed properly, because Konq has an IE-compatible mode that renders most pages the same way that IE does. (IE renders a lot of broken HTML when it shouldn't.)
The Apple guys working on Safari have made huge progress with the IE-compatible mode, as well as making KHTML even faster. Konq uses KHTML, and the code in CVS is both faster and more correct with rendering than any released version of Konqueror or Safari. It's rapidly approaching Mozilla's Gecko engine for correctness, and it's got it beat for speed.
Plus our JavaScript engine is also constantly improving, to the point where it's also ridiculously fast (thanks to the Apple guys, in great part) but it's also very correct. Code that works in IE's JavaScript interpreter almost always works without fail in Konq's, and the cases where that isn't true are being targeted and eliminated. All in all, it's a really great time to be a KDE user.:)
The original poster was referring to a lack of downloadable RPMs of KDE 3.1 for RedHat 8.0.
I responded explaining that RedHat failed to provide such RPMs for download, despite being given plenty of time as well as access to the source tarballs well in advance of today's release. That's all. I meant nothing about including 3.1 on their CDs. (Although they DID include a 3.1 beta on the 8.1 beta CD.)
Re:Longtime GNOMEr Ready to Try
on
KDE 3.1 Released
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· Score: 4, Interesting
KMail is not a replacement for Evolution proper.
Kontact will be, but Kontact won't be released until 3.2 (at the earliest.) KMail is, on the other hand, a damned good email client, but it's not a full PIM suite.
Konqueror is really starting to come into its own now, and 3.1 even includes a slew of bugfixes from the Safari team for the HTML renderer. It's getting faster, and it's only going to get better. The Apple guys have brought KHTML up to speed and they keep on making improvements. In 3.2, I'm quite sure that Konqueror will be an even better browser than Mozilla (let alone Galeon) for anyone interested in Linux web browsing.
But you have to take my opinion with a grain of salt; I'm a KDE developer.:)
He asked (and I quote) "where's the rpms, or do I really have to wait for rh8.1?"
Of course RedHat isn't the only distro to use RPM. Hell, SuSE has RPMs available. Guess what? They don't work on RedHat and they won't help him because he's (apparently) using RedHat 8.
Re:But what I am rellay looking forward to...
on
KDE 3.1 Released
·
· Score: 5, Informative
Well, if you know how, CVS has most of the Safari patches merged in, and the Safari guys are also integrating stuff from our branch into theirs. We're gradually moving towards a unified source tree for both projects (originally, they took a snapshot from the KDE 3.0.2 version of KHTML) but we're not quite there yet.
(I'm using CVS HEAD and let me tell you, Konq is faster than ever. It's actually faster than Mozilla on my machine.)
I wonder if the 'save this process' trick is in 3.1. I've been using CVS for so long that I sort of forget which features make it into release and which don't.:)
(The 'save this process' trick is a way to have a set number of Konqueror processes stay alive after you quit the last Konqueror window. This way, the next time you click on the Konqueror icon, it re-uses the last process that was open, which is a nice little hack that makes Konq appear to launch faster when it's not actually launching at all.)
Re:superb desktop, always top notch from the KDE t
on
KDE 3.1 Released
·
· Score: 5, Informative
Here's the thing (about Ctrl+T).
See, KDE 2.0 had support for embedding a Konsole frame into the Konqueror window. As I'm sure you noticed, if you hit Ctrl+T, 3.1 still embeds a Konsole frame in the Konqueror window.
Fact of the matter is that we had a binding for Ctrl+T first... and changing around things that our users are used to as far as keybindings go is obviously a no-no. (Believe it or not there are people who use the embedded Konsole stuff. And it is pretty nifty.)
However, if you go to Settings->Configure Keybindings, you can alter it to change it from Ctrl+Shift+N to Ctrl+T or add Ctrl+T so you can use both. KDE has really good keybinding support, and it's very configurable.
Well, it integrates into KDE, for one. It doesn't look like ass, for two.
What does this do that e-mail doesn't do?
Nothing, it uses email to send the invitation (although it can be configured to send over other methods, iirc). However, it's a lot easier to simply type in the invitee's email address and let krfb set up the VNC server, and send the email with instructions on how to connect. It automates things so that the user doesn't have to know anything about configuring a VNC server.
Ask RedHat. Or didn't you read the KDE binary package policy?
(Just so you know, the KDE developers gave binary packagers plenty of time to get their packages together. If RedHat didn't bother to, that's RedHat's fault. 3.1 has been delayed more than enough already, but it's out now, so it's time to celebrate.)
Re:Screenshots From Site
on
KDE 3.1 Released
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· Score: 5, Funny
::wince::
You really didn't have to do that. The KDE.org site is already taking a Slashdotting as it is.
Well, VNC has supported X for ages. What this does is provides a KDE-based VNC viewing program as well as a very Windows-XP like application to send an invitation to someone else using KDE or VNC to allow them to connect to your desktop.
That's what the big news is. That, and if you're running OpenSLP, and you enable it, you can allow your shared desktop to be part of a browseable pool of desktops or you can browse through the pool and see desktops that are available from the SLP.
Well, as the other poster noted, the Gecko that Chimera uses doesn't support MathML... but KHTML, which Konqueror and Safari are both based on, has got MathML support in CVS now. Which means that it may yet make it into Safari-final, since the Safari guys are now re-integrating the changes to KHTML HEAD back into their branch. Hopefully, we'll all soon be using the same backend, and they'll be given KDE CVS accounts to commit changes directly.
I know this is a troll and all, but this page you linked to about Linux not displaying fonts about is history. Ancient history. That guy is talking about RedHat 6.2, when 8.0 has been out for months and 8.1 is on the horizon. 8.0 includes fontconfig and Xft2 which is the answer to many, if not all, of the font woes under Linux these days. My X desktop has better font rendering than my Mac, in my opinion. But then again, my X desktop is highly highly tweaked.
Slashdot Mirror
You might want to try out Kiwi. :)
Check http://c133.org/kiwi-0.2.tar.bz2 for a preview of what we're working on (Shamyl Zakariya and I are working on this one... we're both doing some improvements that aren't released yet, and we know there are a few bugs, but it's somewhat usable already)
-Chris
Just had to comment on this line:
FreeBSD clings too much to traditional Unix.
Heh.
And what did you expect it to cling to? Traditional VMS? Don't forget that FreeBSD IS UNIX. FreeBSD is a direct descendent of the code from the original 4.4BSD. THIS IS UNIX. Love it or leave it.
(Personally, I love FreeBSD and 5.0 kicks major ass. Linux is cool, but I use Gentoo, which is arguably more BSD-like than any of the other distros except for maybe Slackware.)
In case you're not familiar with the KDE binary packaging policy, let me make it more familiar to you.
KDE provides source packages. That's it. We give source to users and developers and everyone else in the world. But the way that we do it, we give the source packages to the distribution maintainers first, and we let them know loud and clear that it is 100% their responsibility to package KDE properly for their distro. SuSE understands this; Mandrake understands this; Slackware understands this, Debian understands this; hell, even Gentoo understands this, and Gentoo hasn't even been a real distro for a year yet.
RedHat does NOT do their users the service of providing binary packages. That's fine, but YOU don't have to listen to all of the RedHat users bitching and complaining that they don't get to run the latest KDE, and their friends running SuSE and Mandrake do, and that's not fair, and KDE is anti-RedHat.
If RedHat would do the same for KDE as any one of the other distros does, that would please me to no end. Instead, they take our source code, they strip out the information about the project that provides it, they ruin our desktop by adding hacks to Qt that make it more unstable, they ship pre-release versions of the base libraries and applications that comprise the entire system, and I'm supposed to be happy with that? Please.
I was only responding in kind to Black Parrot's post where he claimed that KDE developers are a bunch of "fucking crybabies" when in fact RedHat does everyone a disservice and you people can't climb over eachother fast enough to kiss their ass when they do.
Sounds useful. I can't make any promises, but that sounds like something we'll want in KMail. (KMail is currently a developer no-man's-land, or at least it was last time I checked... that place is like a war zone).
But if nothing else, I'll bring your idea up with a few of the KMail devs and see what they think. That is, if the feature isn't already planned (seems sort of obvious, now that I think about it.)
Since I'm not Dave Hyatt or Dirk Mueller, I really don't know how much of the communication going on is private mail and how much is on the mailing lists. However, I do keep tabs on what Dave says about Safari over at his blog.
As far as the KHTML side, I just keep watching CVS and I've lost count of how many messages I've seen marked with "merge from safari". It's amazing. Within two weeks of Apple's announcement, half of the code had already been imported back into the main tree and the Safari guys had picked up the new table rendering code on their end.
So subscribe to kde-cvs@kde.org and check Dave's blog, or check the kde-cvs digests (dot.kde.org links to them every time they come out) since kde-cvs is extremely heavy traffic-wise. That's the best way I know of to keep up to date on this info.
Well, maybe not every single one of the posts was polite (Black Parrot really got to me with his little "Fucking KDE crybabies" comment, and my response wasn't exactly nice) but you have no idea how long I've been waiting for this release. I'm actually really really proud of all of the stuff we've got in 3.1 (and I'll be the first to admit that my contributions thus far are quite small, but I'm a part of it).
I should probably send an email to Scott about that (the adopt-a-geek thing). I don't really need new hardware, but it'd be nice to be able to have a cluster of KDE-building machines. The idea of being able to use distcc and build KDE in less than 8 hours is quite tantalizing...
Personally, I would be all for such an effort. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the FreeDesktop.org guys were already working on something like this (I don't follow their efforts too closely, though, so I don't know if they are or not.)
I'm not trying to make any digs here, but the big problem with that is that the Mozilla guys will likely ignore any such standards anyway. They don't bother to adhere to any other UI standards (Mac, Windows, KDE, or GNOME anyway) and they can't be bothered to use standard libs on any of the systems that they run on, nor can they use a standard toolkit or a standard component model. The Mozilla guys seem to be quite content ignoring all the existing standards and implementing their own (except when it comes to the W3C standards, in which case the Mozilla guys adhere to them quite admirably.)
But I doubt that there's any easy way to get the Mozilla guys in on such an effort.
KMail will be more fully integrated into the addressbook, but I have no idea exactly what you mean by 'support for the vcard things' so I can't really answer that.
However, if the addressbook has support for it, KMail should inherit that support simply by virtue of code-sharing and reuse. KDE is a really nice example of not only a great and successful Open Source project, but a really well-architected and very impressive Object Oriented framework with a very nice design (well, in most areas).
If you can be more specific, I can try to give you a better answer.
Right.
RedHat posts KDE 3.1 beta snapshot RPMs, for a beta release of their distro, provides no guarantees that these RPMs will even install (let alone WORK) on the latest RELEASED version of their distro, and that's support?
Fucking RedHat apologists.
Actually, it is rather IE-like. :)
However, this is slightly different from kdeinit because kdeinit preloads the libraries into RAM so that process initialization takes less time, while this actually keeps the last Konq process open and the next time a 'start Konqueror' request is interpreted, it sends a message to the sleeping process saying "HEY! Open a new window!"
Since opening a new window takes exponentially less time than linking and loading a new Konqueror process (and since prelinking isn't quite finished yet) this makes Konqueror appear to launch much faster, but again, it's not really "launching" anymore.
Also, it's configurable so that you can say "Ok, instead of just one, I want you to keep at most 2 [3,4,x] of these processes alive." Of course, this means that the processes stay alive and continue to eat RAM while they are, but if you don't use Konq for a while they'll get swapped out to VM. It's still faster than launching a process cold, though.
Any web page that has valid HTML and doesn't render properly in Konqueror should be reported as a bug.
:)
If the web page has invalid HTML, we really shouldn't have to care about whether or not it renders "properly" since it wasn't written "properly" - but even a very large majority of those pages are displayed properly, because Konq has an IE-compatible mode that renders most pages the same way that IE does. (IE renders a lot of broken HTML when it shouldn't.)
The Apple guys working on Safari have made huge progress with the IE-compatible mode, as well as making KHTML even faster. Konq uses KHTML, and the code in CVS is both faster and more correct with rendering than any released version of Konqueror or Safari. It's rapidly approaching Mozilla's Gecko engine for correctness, and it's got it beat for speed.
Plus our JavaScript engine is also constantly improving, to the point where it's also ridiculously fast (thanks to the Apple guys, in great part) but it's also very correct. Code that works in IE's JavaScript interpreter almost always works without fail in Konq's, and the cases where that isn't true are being targeted and eliminated. All in all, it's a really great time to be a KDE user.
The original poster was referring to a lack of downloadable RPMs of KDE 3.1 for RedHat 8.0.
I responded explaining that RedHat failed to provide such RPMs for download, despite being given plenty of time as well as access to the source tarballs well in advance of today's release. That's all. I meant nothing about including 3.1 on their CDs. (Although they DID include a 3.1 beta on the 8.1 beta CD.)
KMail is not a replacement for Evolution proper.
:)
Kontact will be, but Kontact won't be released until 3.2 (at the earliest.) KMail is, on the other hand, a damned good email client, but it's not a full PIM suite.
Konqueror is really starting to come into its own now, and 3.1 even includes a slew of bugfixes from the Safari team for the HTML renderer. It's getting faster, and it's only going to get better. The Apple guys have brought KHTML up to speed and they keep on making improvements. In 3.2, I'm quite sure that Konqueror will be an even better browser than Mozilla (let alone Galeon) for anyone interested in Linux web browsing.
But you have to take my opinion with a grain of salt; I'm a KDE developer.
Hey, did you bother to read the parent post?
He asked (and I quote) "where's the rpms, or do I really have to wait for rh8.1?"
Of course RedHat isn't the only distro to use RPM. Hell, SuSE has RPMs available. Guess what? They don't work on RedHat and they won't help him because he's (apparently) using RedHat 8.
Well, if you know how, CVS has most of the Safari patches merged in, and the Safari guys are also integrating stuff from our branch into theirs. We're gradually moving towards a unified source tree for both projects (originally, they took a snapshot from the KDE 3.0.2 version of KHTML) but we're not quite there yet.
:)
(I'm using CVS HEAD and let me tell you, Konq is faster than ever. It's actually faster than Mozilla on my machine.)
I wonder if the 'save this process' trick is in 3.1. I've been using CVS for so long that I sort of forget which features make it into release and which don't.
(The 'save this process' trick is a way to have a set number of Konqueror processes stay alive after you quit the last Konqueror window. This way, the next time you click on the Konqueror icon, it re-uses the last process that was open, which is a nice little hack that makes Konq appear to launch faster when it's not actually launching at all.)
Here's the thing (about Ctrl+T).
See, KDE 2.0 had support for embedding a Konsole frame into the Konqueror window. As I'm sure you noticed, if you hit Ctrl+T, 3.1 still embeds a Konsole frame in the Konqueror window.
Fact of the matter is that we had a binding for Ctrl+T first... and changing around things that our users are used to as far as keybindings go is obviously a no-no. (Believe it or not there are people who use the embedded Konsole stuff. And it is pretty nifty.)
However, if you go to Settings->Configure Keybindings, you can alter it to change it from Ctrl+Shift+N to Ctrl+T or add Ctrl+T so you can use both. KDE has really good keybinding support, and it's very configurable.
Hope this helps.
Well, it integrates into KDE, for one. It doesn't look like ass, for two.
Nothing, it uses email to send the invitation (although it can be configured to send over other methods, iirc). However, it's a lot easier to simply type in the invitee's email address and let krfb set up the VNC server, and send the email with instructions on how to connect. It automates things so that the user doesn't have to know anything about configuring a VNC server.
Ask RedHat. Or didn't you read the KDE binary package policy?
(Just so you know, the KDE developers gave binary packagers plenty of time to get their packages together. If RedHat didn't bother to, that's RedHat's fault. 3.1 has been delayed more than enough already, but it's out now, so it's time to celebrate.)
::wince::
:)
You really didn't have to do that. The KDE.org site is already taking a Slashdotting as it is.
Oh well. It sure is gorgeous.
Well, VNC has supported X for ages. What this does is provides a KDE-based VNC viewing program as well as a very Windows-XP like application to send an invitation to someone else using KDE or VNC to allow them to connect to your desktop.
That's what the big news is. That, and if you're running OpenSLP, and you enable it, you can allow your shared desktop to be part of a browseable pool of desktops or you can browse through the pool and see desktops that are available from the SLP.
KDE 3.1 is really a step above 3.0. Kudos to the rest of the KDE team!
Wrong.
Well, as the other poster noted, the Gecko that Chimera uses doesn't support MathML... but KHTML, which Konqueror and Safari are both based on, has got MathML support in CVS now. Which means that it may yet make it into Safari-final, since the Safari guys are now re-integrating the changes to KHTML HEAD back into their branch. Hopefully, we'll all soon be using the same backend, and they'll be given KDE CVS accounts to commit changes directly.
God, I love Open Source stuff.
Send me an email if you want to see an example of what I'm talking about. clee at extrasensory dot biz.
-clee
I know this is a troll and all, but this page you linked to about Linux not displaying fonts about is history. Ancient history. That guy is talking about RedHat 6.2, when 8.0 has been out for months and 8.1 is on the horizon. 8.0 includes fontconfig and Xft2 which is the answer to many, if not all, of the font woes under Linux these days. My X desktop has better font rendering than my Mac, in my opinion. But then again, my X desktop is highly highly tweaked.