actually your not. not when your dealing with enterprise level support. do you have any experience dealing with enterprise support ? i have had the experience, and depending on the company and what level of support you talking to the wait time is next to nothing (less than 5 min). i would challenge you to find a mailling list that would responde 95% of the time within 5 min, and solve 98% of your problems without needing to contact the ISV.
those are the response levels for Sun's platinum contracts for Linux. i know i support them.
im not talking about calling tech support where you get joe blow on the phone who goes over some lame script. im talking enterprise level support with which you have named contact points, you have their cell #. they are availible 24/7/365. mailing lists dont have that.
you also seem to be missing the point, when your dealing with enterprise level decisions your dealing with upper management. no matter what.
now that ladies and gentleman is someone who is trolling by exagerating the gist of my post. lets all give him a hand *silence*.
based on the said 25k/year base we were discussing an order of magnitude is double or more, which again puts us into the 50 - 75k/year salary range. the difference between being upper middle class and a broke ass. therefore several orders of magnitude.
and let me guess you worked for Sun or IBM has a call monkey ? and you somehow think thats an enterprise admin ? you people need to pull you head out of your ass. being 3l33t and knowing how to build an rpm or patch a hole is not the same damn thing as running a heavily loaded system for years with *NO* downtime..... believe me i have been on both ends of that spectrum.
(NOTE: "several orders of magnitude" is used at the descretion of the poster, it was not a reference to the mathmatical term. has such takes its meaning from him/her)
although i agree that NT is unproven at anything except crashing, Unix is thirty years old, and everyone on the face of the planet knows its the best OS base for anything mission criticle, the reason they still run VAX and old mainframes is because more often than not they "just work" and the migration is more trouble than its worth.
You absolutely *can* find experienced, capable admins for less than $35k a year
no you cant. real unix admins that have been working with unix for *YEARS* are still in very high demand, the problem is they are also to damn egotistical to move for a job without relocation pay, and the employers are not going to pay it in this economy. hence what you have is jobs that dont pay as much as they used to (used to be 100+k now only 50 -75) and arent considered "prestigous" to some because of the way most employers treat their IT staff (tie's, 8am start times etc).
i agree that employers need to adjust their thinking a little, but you also have to understand that just because i know python (self-taught) doesnt mean they believe me, thats why they want the piece of (toliet) paper. cant say i blame them after some of the shiite from the.com era.
most companies these days are backlashing against the employee based market from 3 - 10 years ago. they arent upping pay, or giving fringe benefits, they are heaping more work onto miserable employees. because with few exceptions they can. real unix admins are an exception.
hell if you really want to get technical about it i'll start linking to level 2 and 3 sys-admin jobs, jobs that get posted rather often at that. and they pay 35k per year for level 2, 45+ for level 3.....
the problem is people want it to be like it was four years ago, where the employees said "jump", and the company said "how high".
you also have to understand that if they start paying techie white collar jobs way below market value (making 35k per year for a level 2 isnt bad, or that low.) the next thing to be cut to way below market value will be management. and then the economy will be permenantly shot.....
do you know what certified for enterprise applications means ? it means the company that certified them (ie oracle) provides direct support for the product they are certified for, furthermore if you are runing an enterprise BUSSINESS then you go with the solution that gives you the best performance per $; and not to many 3rd parties provide the kind of support for a product that you get directly from the vendor.
i love gentoo, i have no problems with debian. but when shit REALLY breaks you DO NOT rely on a mailing list. its that simple, saying "boss i'm sorry but nobody responded to my post" will get your ass fired. (especially if you recomended the solution)
yes there are SOME 3rd party apps that are certified to work with xyz distro, but no enterprise level stuff is certified to work with anything that isnt an enterprise OS, its to much of a hassle to support "Linux". thats why redhat switched its bussiness model to more of an enterprise level, so they can bring in large customers. large customers want support from vendors, not joe schmoe's outsourcing india inc.
Debian last i checked wasnt certified to Run oracle, or offered as a direct solution by any major company. there is a reason for that. toot the "open source isnt a company" horn all you want, in bussiness you need a bussiness standing behind you in order to get your product used.
just of note: redhat employes some of the top coders in OSS, such as Mr Alan Cox. they also have a very good standing with the community in general. although i agree with the statement about mailling lists coming in handy, you cant rely on them like you could on somebody who is contractually obligated to support you.
(you could easily get someone with the knowledge to do this correctly for $25k btw).
there is no way in frozen hell you would be able to pay an enterprise admin who does level 3 work 25k per year. there is a very LARGE difference between sitting in a call center while talking to some jackass who spent $2000 on some shitty PC and talking to someone who has a $250,000+ server running Redhat AS with Oracle...... so start the training for redhat AS alone cost more than the damn PC.
not to mention that when your dealing with systems running certified oracle your dealing with systems that would potentially cause hundreds of thousands of dollards of lost profits for the company per hour if they go down/stop working.
Sony doesnt sell or run anything in this range. even if you supported their internal IT infrastructure it isnt on the level of say, NASA or all-state insurance, or some hospital. no consumer level company is really on this level. although some think they are.
there is a large difference in skill between the average phone monkey and a real unix/linux admin. not to mention if you only have one level 3 admin then you would have to pay him some sickly amount to be on call 24/7.
most data centers that have level 3 admins pay them at least double what your recomending, companies like IBM and Sun pay them several orders of magnitude more than 25/k per year. especially if your expecting them to live near your center of operations, which for larger companies is usually in a large city, which also costs more.
check out monster.com i searched for 'Linux level 3 admin' and the lowest paying job started at 50k per year. you dont hire anyone without years of experience to do level 3 no matter what degrees or certs they have, and phone support isnt the same as the real thing.
yeah the problem is debian doesnt offer you the level of support you get with AS and debian is not certified for oracle, db2 etc....
and to qoute redhat.com : "Also, Red Hat Enterprise Linux AS is certified by DISA (US Defense Information Systems Agency) as COE (Common Operating Environment) Compliant. It is the only Linux distribution to have received this certification."
im not a large fan of redhat because they seem to be going to microsoft route with pricing (i even recomended SuSe earlier) but redhat AS has alot of stuff that debian doesn't. this is a enterprise decision and has such rh AS, ES, and SuSe ES are the only real choices.
Solaris is a proprietary OS and as such it is designed to run on a very specific set of hardware, namely the hardware sun sells. they dont want you running solaris on a dell box, they want you running it on a sparc box you bought from them
and yes we (Sun) do sell x86 servers, i know i support them for a living. Solaris was never meant to run on a x86, it is getting better but it still only has a very limited amount of drivers.
while i would conceed that the older unsupported, very buggy versions of windows MIGHT fit onto a mini-cd i dont see how XP or 2000 with a UI, and all of the dependancies for the tools that would need to be included would fit onto a mini-CD.
well the distro itself is a major utility, and that cannot be ported to windows.
you got one thing right, windows cannot be made (legally) to do this since it doesnt boot from CD with the applications ready to run. hell i doubt as if you could get windows with the same programs onto a mini-CD.
Re:Mad Hatter = Red Hat Distribution
on
LWCE Wrapup
·
· Score: 1
in case you didnt notice (mad hatter, looking glass etc...) the code names for these products are taking a "alice in wonder land" naming scheme. which last i checked was several decades older than redhat.
Firstly let me say that whomever modded this shit up needs to have their mod privledges revoked.
secondly let me point out a few things, one you misread the parent. he said "like" the gentoo team, not just them. secondly gentoo did not come along "way after" linux became a phenom. linux got "hot" in late 99, and didnt really get ANY market share until mid-late 00. gentoo came along in 2001 a whopping year later. Also gentoo is not a minority distro its on of the top 4; and its the fastest growing distro by two fold.
i am not a zealot for any distro, cause i can do what i want with all of them. i however do use gentoo on all of my non-production servers, and all of my workstations.
and just out of pure curiosity what exactly do the above distros offer that you dont get with gentoo ?
hardly. they signed contracts they came at a large financial gain for redhat and Suse. but the major thing for sun is that an open source version of java will be distributed with all redhat and suse systems.
Sun doesnt have any real reason to go back to offering their own Linux distro. this is a better idea. And sun is sure as fuck not dumping solaris.
how old are these sun boxes ? what models are they ?
We have an E450, Two v65's and Two sun fire 210's at work. we have had E450 for several years and the rest of the stuff is new. we have had one hard-drive fail. nothing else.
we also have a ton of workstations, going all the way back to sparcstation 5's. never had any major failures there either, few hard-drives and one stick of RAM IIRC.
HP-UX is nowhere near as good or refined, or well known as solaris.
and Itanium proc's suck, they aren't even as good as alpha proc's, let alone the newer ultrasparc's. take a look at real world benchmarks for that type of equipment, like database benchmarks. Sun/Solaris OWN high end benchmarks, and still constitute the majority of the enterprize field.
and i wont get into the enterprise level of support that Sun offers, it beats everyone else hands down.
And you know how linux is making leaps and bounds ? take a look at some of the more recent code that has been put into the kernel, and in userland. Sun is a major contributor.
not sure if your just trolling or not but anyways:
the gentoo "idea" is far from dead my friend it is STILL the fastest growing distro, and is still #3 overall in world wide usage (behind redhat and Suse)
oh and just for you information you can use emerge to get pre-compiled binaries that were customer built for your arch. such as athlon.
as far as cleaning "mistakes" out of gentoo, well thats really hard, like so:
emerge -C someebuild removes emerge someebuild.2 installs
OR emerge -K somebinaryebuild.2 install the binary.
We know you think you're right. We also don't care. Score -1 redundant.
actually last i checked i was modded up, so somebody agrees with me. and if you dont care why did you reply ?
you seem to have missed the 18,000 times i have said "its no longer under the radar" or "if he was doing this right" or "instead of bashing them for installing it find out why they did, also known has DOING YOUR FRIGGIN JOB!"
the guy that wrote the article had some clue, but there are 40 or 50 posts in this discussion that try to spread FUD about linux on the desktop/workstation. Like the guy i was replying to, who seems to think that linux must have a ton of useless crap lying around, or that he must support things on linux that he doesnt support on windows. which is FUD, and bullshit.
Slashdot Mirror
actually your not. not when your dealing with enterprise level support. do you have any experience dealing with enterprise support ? i have had the experience, and depending on the company and what level of support you talking to the wait time is next to nothing (less than 5 min). i would challenge you to find a mailling list that would responde 95% of the time within 5 min, and solve 98% of your problems without needing to contact the ISV.
those are the response levels for Sun's platinum contracts for Linux. i know i support them.
im not talking about calling tech support where you get joe blow on the phone who goes over some lame script. im talking enterprise level support with which you have named contact points, you have their cell #. they are availible 24/7/365. mailing lists dont have that.
you also seem to be missing the point, when your dealing with enterprise level decisions your dealing with upper management. no matter what.
now that ladies and gentleman is someone who is trolling by exagerating the gist of my post. lets all give him a hand *silence*.
..... believe me i have been on both ends of that spectrum.
based on the said 25k/year base we were discussing an order of magnitude is double or more, which again puts us into the 50 - 75k/year salary range. the difference between being upper middle class and a broke ass. therefore several orders of magnitude.
and let me guess you worked for Sun or IBM has a call monkey ? and you somehow think thats an enterprise admin ? you people need to pull you head out of your ass. being 3l33t and knowing how to build an rpm or patch a hole is not the same damn thing as running a heavily loaded system for years with *NO* downtime
(NOTE: "several orders of magnitude" is used at the descretion of the poster, it was not a reference to the mathmatical term. has such takes its meaning from him/her)
in an enterprise setting you CAN NOT rely on a mailling list, im sorry that shit will get your ass fired quickly.
"unproven" system like UNIX or Windows NT. "
.com era.
.....
.....
although i agree that NT is unproven at anything except crashing, Unix is thirty years old, and everyone on the face of the planet knows its the best OS base for anything mission criticle, the reason they still run VAX and old mainframes is because more often than not they "just work" and the migration is more trouble than its worth.
You absolutely *can* find experienced, capable admins for less than $35k a year
no you cant. real unix admins that have been working with unix for *YEARS* are still in very high demand, the problem is they are also to damn egotistical to move for a job without relocation pay, and the employers are not going to pay it in this economy. hence what you have is jobs that dont pay as much as they used to (used to be 100+k now only 50 -75) and arent considered "prestigous" to some because of the way most employers treat their IT staff (tie's, 8am start times etc).
i agree that employers need to adjust their thinking a little, but you also have to understand that just because i know python (self-taught) doesnt mean they believe me, thats why they want the piece of (toliet) paper. cant say i blame them after some of the shiite from the
most companies these days are backlashing against the employee based market from 3 - 10 years ago. they arent upping pay, or giving fringe benefits, they are heaping more work onto miserable employees. because with few exceptions they can. real unix admins are an exception.
hell if you really want to get technical about it i'll start linking to level 2 and 3 sys-admin jobs, jobs that get posted rather often at that. and they pay 35k per year for level 2, 45+ for level 3
the problem is people want it to be like it was four years ago, where the employees said "jump", and the company said "how high".
you also have to understand that if they start paying techie white collar jobs way below market value (making 35k per year for a level 2 isnt bad, or that low.) the next thing to be cut to way below market value will be management. and then the economy will be permenantly shot
do you know what certified for enterprise applications means ? it means the company that certified them (ie oracle) provides direct support for the product they are certified for, furthermore if you are runing an enterprise BUSSINESS then you go with the solution that gives you the best performance per $; and not to many 3rd parties provide the kind of support for a product that you get directly from the vendor.
i love gentoo, i have no problems with debian. but when shit REALLY breaks you DO NOT rely on a mailing list. its that simple, saying "boss i'm sorry but nobody responded to my post" will get your ass fired. (especially if you recomended the solution) yes there are SOME 3rd party apps that are certified to work with xyz distro, but no enterprise level stuff is certified to work with anything that isnt an enterprise OS, its to much of a hassle to support "Linux". thats why redhat switched its bussiness model to more of an enterprise level, so they can bring in large customers. large customers want support from vendors, not joe schmoe's outsourcing india inc.
Debian last i checked wasnt certified to Run oracle, or offered as a direct solution by any major company. there is a reason for that. toot the "open source isnt a company" horn all you want, in bussiness you need a bussiness standing behind you in order to get your product used.
just of note: redhat employes some of the top coders in OSS, such as Mr Alan Cox. they also have a very good standing with the community in general. although i agree with the statement about mailling lists coming in handy, you cant rely on them like you could on somebody who is contractually obligated to support you.
(you could easily get someone with the knowledge to do this correctly for $25k btw).
...... so start the training for redhat AS alone cost more than the damn PC.
there is no way in frozen hell you would be able to pay an enterprise admin who does level 3 work 25k per year. there is a very LARGE difference between sitting in a call center while talking to some jackass who spent $2000 on some shitty PC and talking to someone who has a $250,000+ server running Redhat AS with Oracle
not to mention that when your dealing with systems running certified oracle your dealing with systems that would potentially cause hundreds of thousands of dollards of lost profits for the company per hour if they go down/stop working.
Sony doesnt sell or run anything in this range. even if you supported their internal IT infrastructure it isnt on the level of say, NASA or all-state insurance, or some hospital. no consumer level company is really on this level. although some think they are.
there is a large difference in skill between the average phone monkey and a real unix/linux admin. not to mention if you only have one level 3 admin then you would have to pay him some sickly amount to be on call 24/7.
most data centers that have level 3 admins pay them at least double what your recomending, companies like IBM and Sun pay them several orders of magnitude more than 25/k per year. especially if your expecting them to live near your center of operations, which for larger companies is usually in a large city, which also costs more.
check out monster.com i searched for 'Linux level 3 admin' and the lowest paying job started at 50k per year. you dont hire anyone without years of experience to do level 3 no matter what degrees or certs they have, and phone support isnt the same as the real thing.
and what company does enterprise support on the cheap ? (24x7x365 2 hour response time.)
.....
for that matter what certified oracle system is cheap ? and do you want to drop a few hundred k on something with no support ? i mean really
just FYI redhat AS has real enterprise support from IBM, dell, HP and Sun.
you can run linux on the enterprize systems from hp , IBM, and Dell. hell dell has only RH Linux listed for its oracle boxes.
yeah the problem is debian doesnt offer you the level of support you get with AS and debian is not certified for oracle, db2 etc ....
and to qoute redhat.com : "Also, Red Hat Enterprise Linux AS is certified by DISA (US Defense Information Systems Agency) as COE (Common Operating Environment) Compliant. It is the only Linux distribution to have received this certification."
im not a large fan of redhat because they seem to be going to microsoft route with pricing (i even recomended SuSe earlier) but redhat AS has alot of stuff that debian doesn't. this is a enterprise decision and has such rh AS, ES, and SuSe ES are the only real choices.
your comparing apples and oranges.
Solaris is a proprietary OS and as such it is designed to run on a very specific set of hardware, namely the hardware sun sells. they dont want you running solaris on a dell box, they want you running it on a sparc box you bought from them
and yes we (Sun) do sell x86 servers, i know i support them for a living. Solaris was never meant to run on a x86, it is getting better but it still only has a very limited amount of drivers.
SuSe is cheaper than AS, how much cheaper i do not know. but unlike most distro's they offer an "Enterprise Edition."
They also offer priced to fit support, and now have the backing of IBM and Sun, and they support oracle.
and this is coming from a Gentoo zealot.
mini-CD's (which is what we are talking about) are 185MB .....
while i would conceed that the older unsupported, very buggy versions of windows MIGHT fit onto a mini-cd i dont see how XP or 2000 with a UI, and all of the dependancies for the tools that would need to be included would fit onto a mini-CD.
well the distro itself is a major utility, and that cannot be ported to windows.
you got one thing right, windows cannot be made (legally) to do this since it doesnt boot from CD with the applications ready to run. hell i doubt as if you could get windows with the same programs onto a mini-CD.
in case you didnt notice (mad hatter, looking glass etc...) the code names for these products are taking a "alice in wonder land" naming scheme. which last i checked was several decades older than redhat.
Firstly let me say that whomever modded this shit up needs to have their mod privledges revoked.
secondly let me point out a few things, one you misread the parent. he said "like" the gentoo team, not just them. secondly gentoo did not come along "way after" linux became a phenom. linux got "hot" in late 99, and didnt really get ANY market share until mid-late 00. gentoo came along in 2001 a whopping year later. Also gentoo is not a minority distro its on of the top 4; and its the fastest growing distro by two fold.
i am not a zealot for any distro, cause i can do what i want with all of them. i however do use gentoo on all of my non-production servers, and all of my workstations.
and just out of pure curiosity what exactly do the above distros offer that you dont get with gentoo ?
i'll call you whatever i damn well please "You smarmy lagerlout git. You bloody woofter sod."
good ? yes. thought so, biatch !
you seem to have missed the 18,000 times i have said "its no longer under the radar"
You've said that exactly 0 times in this thread.
actually that would be once, its no longer under the radar. thats twice.
infuriated yet ? jackass.
hardly. they signed contracts they came at a large financial gain for redhat and Suse. but the major thing for sun is that an open source version of java will be distributed with all redhat and suse systems.
Sun doesnt have any real reason to go back to offering their own Linux distro. this is a better idea. And sun is sure as fuck not dumping solaris.
how old are these sun boxes ? what models are they ?
We have an E450, Two v65's and Two sun fire 210's at work. we have had E450 for several years and the rest of the stuff is new. we have had one hard-drive fail. nothing else.
we also have a ton of workstations, going all the way back to sparcstation 5's. never had any major failures there either, few hard-drives and one stick of RAM IIRC.
HP-UX is nowhere near as good or refined, or well known as solaris.
and Itanium proc's suck, they aren't even as good as alpha proc's, let alone the newer ultrasparc's. take a look at real world benchmarks for that type of equipment, like database benchmarks. Sun/Solaris OWN high end benchmarks, and still constitute the majority of the enterprize field.
and i wont get into the enterprise level of support that Sun offers, it beats everyone else hands down.
And you know how linux is making leaps and bounds ? take a look at some of the more recent code that has been put into the kernel, and in userland. Sun is a major contributor.
not sure if your just trolling or not but anyways:
the gentoo "idea" is far from dead my friend it is STILL the fastest growing distro, and is still #3 overall in world wide usage (behind redhat and Suse)
oh and just for you information you can use emerge to get pre-compiled binaries that were customer built for your arch. such as athlon.
as far as cleaning "mistakes" out of gentoo, well thats really hard, like so:
emerge -C someebuild removes
emerge someebuild.2 installs
OR
emerge -K somebinaryebuild.2 install the binary.
my head hurts from doing all that work.
your probably right, installing both would save me from the lashing i would get from RMS-fanboys flaming me, and lynching me in effigy.
actually your post is pretty much just FUD.
We know you think you're right. We also don't care. Score -1 redundant.
actually last i checked i was modded up, so somebody agrees with me. and if you dont care why did you reply ?
you seem to have missed the 18,000 times i have said "its no longer under the radar" or "if he was doing this right" or "instead of bashing them for installing it find out why they did, also known has DOING YOUR FRIGGIN JOB!"
the guy that wrote the article had some clue, but there are 40 or 50 posts in this discussion that try to spread FUD about linux on the desktop/workstation. Like the guy i was replying to, who seems to think that linux must have a ton of useless crap lying around, or that he must support things on linux that he doesnt support on windows. which is FUD, and bullshit.