I have been a Linux user for many years with quite a few different distros and I have to agree with the other guy. I am running Xubuntu right now and nothing 'just works'.
I've been running Linux since 2002, RedHat type distros, though I have dabbled with a few debian based live distros, DSL, Puppy and Ubuntu. I'm currently running Fedora 29, which "just works"
A lot of the programs I want to use don't have documentation.
Now I would agree that there needs to be some improvement in documentation but it is VERY rare for an application to have no documentation. Not even a manpage? Which applications?
Very few program installers bother to add menu or desktop launcher entries
What? If it is an X application from the repos they almost always install a menu entry.
and it is by no means easy to do that manually.
Sure it is? Xubuntu right? Install MenuLibre (or LXMenuEditor), then you can add new launchers to the menu easily. I just did it to add "NetHack-X11" to my menu. (I compile nethack because I use certain optional features)
But it is easy enough to add them from a terminal, they're simple text files. I could have done the same thing by adding this:
[Desktop Entry] Version=1.1 Type=Application Name=NetHack-X11 Comment=NetHack-X11, don't forget to edit the.nethackrc for X11 Icon=/usr/games/lib/nethackdir/nh_icon.xpm Exec=/usr/games/nethack Actions= Categories=Game;X-XFCE;X-Xfce-Toplevel;
To either my.local/share/applications directory or systemwide in/usr/local/share/applications/ as nethack-x11.desktop
yes it isn't that unusual for you to be expected to compile from source and without any instructions on how to do so.
It is VERY unusually to be expected to source compile and even rarer to not have a basic README giving basic compile instructions. Usually it's as easy as entering into the source directory and:./configure make sudo make install
Now sometimes you might have to pass an option to the configure script to enable or disable a feature but that's something like:./configure --enable-feature --disable-this-feature,./configure --help will often tell you more.
But I VERY rarely have to compile anything, in fact my/usr/local/src directory only has 6 compiles in it and I'm what might be called a power-user.
I have spent weeks trying to figure out how to compile from source a linux web server I really would like to use, but I can't for the life of me figure it out.
Which one? Perhaps I can help.
In summary, no, Linux is most definitely not ready for general nontechnical users
Poppycock, I'm not a programmer, and as I said, I've been using Linux since 2002.
Exactly. It's an OS made for programmers, and it sucks for everyone else.
I am not a programmer and I have been using Linux since 2002. In fact, Slashdot articles about Linux are what encouraged me to try it out.
Until you can simply download and install (as opposed to: download, compile, build, tweak, fail, try again, find the correct version, try again again, still likely fail, eventually give up) a reasonably wide set of applications it simply can't catch on.
But you CAN simply download and install a wide variety of applications from software repositories. Some might call me a power user and I have only 6 binaries I've compiled myself on this system:
IDJC and libshout-idjc. IDJC is an internet DJ application, the ONLY reason I compile it is that the version in the repos is not using a few advanced features.
nethack and a cp437 utility. I only compile nethack because I enable a few optional features. I compile up cp437 utility so I can get proper IBMgraphics (and an Epyx Rogue looking rogue level) in my UTF-8 terminal.
overbitenx, there's a binary in there that needs to be compiled to use the overbitenx firefox extension that adds gopher support to modern firefox.
pterm, a Plato terminal emulator, which isn't in the repos.
That's it. The hardest one to compile is nethack, because it uses an archaic build configure method, rather than standard configure scripts. But I have a "recipe" I've been using for years. I just follow the recipe to edit the various conf files and Makefiles and I'm good to go. Basically I use the "unix" hints file and make the necessary edits to enable the features I use and also enable X11 support alongside the standard terminal version so I can play it either way.
Then you install the rpmfusion repo, which you're going to do anyway if you have a Nvidia graphics card. Think!
[CronoCloud@potos ~]$ sudo dnf search nintendo
Last metadata expiration check: 0:47:06 ago on Mon 08 Apr 2019 09:02:31 AM CDT. Summary Matched: nintendo
desmume.x86_64 : A Nintendo DS emulator zsnes.i686 : A Super Nintendo emulator gcube.x86_64 : Nintendo Gamecube emulator desmume-cli.x86_64 : A Nintendo DS emulator (CLI version) gnome-nds-thumbnailer.x86_64 : Thumbnailer for Nintendo DS ROM files fakenes.x86_64 : Nintendo Entertainment System emulator desmume-glade.x86_64 : A Nintendo DS emulator (Glade GUI version) gnuboy-x.x86_64 : Nintendo GameBoy Color emulator (X version) snes9x.x86_64 : Super Nintendo Entertainment System emulator gnuboy-sdl.x86_64 : Nintendo GameBoy Color emulator (SDL version) gnuboy-svgalib.x86_64 : Nintendo GameBoy Color emulator (svgalib version) gnuboy-fb.x86_64 : Nintendo GameBoy Color emulator (frame buffer version) snes9x-gtk.x86_64 : Super Nintendo Entertainment System emulator - GTK version
What? Firefox on Linux has had hardware acceleration for video decoding for YEARS. You need a relatively recent video card to accelerate decoding of Google's VP9 though. for Nvidia that's PureVideo feature set F or later. Basically the 750, 950, 960 and the 10xx, Titans, 20xx's, and 16xx's.
Native games or through Steamplay with Proton? I'm primarily use my PS4 for games, but I have tried a couple of games through Steamplay: Star Trek Online and Fallout 3.
Here's a database of games tested with Proton, which ones do or do not work. The number of working games keeps increasing over time https://www.protondb.com/
And here's the native Linux/SteamOS games page on Steam:
Companies market "securely transfer files/info to client via a branded portal" services like these to professionals like lawyers/accountants. They tell her that's the way to be secure and keep your info secure. She doesn't know that yourself and herself can just use standard encryption tools.
And even if she DOES know about such things, and how to use such, some of her clients might be people or small businesses who aren't even as tech proficient as she is, so she might STILL use those web based "Secure transfer" services.
No, don't use passwords like "horse battery staple". It's vulnerable to dictionary attacks.
Do you know how many words there are in English? Do you know how each word adds even more entropy. Let along that password crackers don't know if you're using words at all. A long wordphrase password would look no different than a string of random letters and symbols created by a password manager.
incorrectbadhorsenimhbatteryredstapler is actually a better password than something like: "qymAYYv4AeLPMfnW"
The gopher links didn't work in Lynx which surprised me. They aren't even clickable even if you have OverbiteNX installed, I had to copy the link to a new tab.
Hmmph, most libertarian tech guys are just alt-right conservatives who like porn and pot. They call themselves "libertarian" because they're "atheist rationalists" and associate "right wing" with evangelicals. But when you look at their actual views and opinions....they're alt-right. Think about it, and all those GNAA and "indo-chimp" posts from AC's. The tech-world is FULL of spoiled suburban-prep tech brats who read too much Heinlein, don't understand that Ayn Rand wrote Mary Sue sci-fi, and got told too many times how smart they were. And they know jack about the lives of anyone not as tech-spoiled as they were.
Yes, we get it, you embrace post-modernism. Just consider that it's the philosophy that grew out of Communism, and the deaths of 160 million lie at the feet of the ideas you think are right
What the hell are you going on about? Post Modernism is associated with art, literature, architecture and philosophy. Do you even know what it is or are you just being parroting the words of some right wing kook like the aspie parrot many slashdotters are. Look it up, you won't find communism mentioned on the wikipedia page of post-modernism. You WILL find art, literature, architecture and so forth.
If anything Communism is associated with "Modernism", but neither Modernism or Post-modernism should be associated much with socio-economic systems.
You Pointing to me and saying "Post Modernist" and then saying "commie" is Red-baiting.
You think I'm a communist? Prove it. You'll find I've never said a positive thing about Stalin or Mao. And that I've never said the state should own the means of production...which is one of the things that define communism.
I really can't believe you are engaging in Red baiting in 2019?
Or to good description of what you are doing from Rationalwiki:
Red-baiting is a dusty old notorious bullshitting tactic used almost exclusively by the right-wing. It consists of making a false and/or groundless accusation that some person is a communist or fellow traveler, often with the aim of discrediting them or destroying their reputation. Essentially, everything that certain people dislike is to be considered Communist plots. As such, red-baiting is a form of guilt by association, a fallacy which Stalin himself used to justify some of his crimes.
And also:
"Cultural Marxism" (both uppercase) is a common snarl word used to paint anyone with progressive tendencies as a secret Communist. The term alludes to a conspiracy theory in which sinister left-wingers have infiltrated media, academia, and science and are engaged in a decades-long plot to undermine Western culture. Some variants of the conspiracy allege that basically all of modern social liberalism is, in fact, a Communist front group.
And by the way, I used the above text in response to ANOTHER alt-right/libertarian/right wing Slashdot asshat back in 2018.
This is one reason why I sometimes can derogatory towards tech guys, they tend to parrot things they don't really understand and have little familiarity with things outside of code/tech/geek hobbies. Maybe you watced a video where some "rationalist libertarian" with a shaved head and viking beard says he "destroys" liberals/SJW's/whatever by connecting them with communism via post-modernism. That doesn't mean he's right, or an expert. And you are no expert on anything that isn't code or tech.
Read it, and realize what you are. Some dude on the spectrum who got told he was so smart in grade school/high school for so long that he got a big head and thinks he's an expert in everything. To put it in the vernacular: Stay in your lane, bro.
But I suspect you deny all correlation between choice and consequence
Using a strawman of putting words in my mouth I haven't actually said? Choices do have consequences, but external factors beyond one's control can and do limit the choices one can make.
But Cronyism is one of the things that means we don't have a meritocracy, we have a Plutocracy that masquerades as meritocracy.
And yes, there's people trying to make things more meritocratic with things like "blind auditions" but that doesn't mean that society isn't a Plutocracy as a whole.
I know how you libertarians and alt-right folks love the word "Meritocracy" it's kind of like a religion to you that makes you feel better. But we litterally don't live in one.
There is literally NOTHING to indicate Mary Gates knowing Opel had anything to do with MS getting the IBM deal.
No one is saying she had to know anything. Bill Gates befitted from the connection without her having to actually DO or know anything other than small talk about families. Do you now know how social connections work? Are you THAT literal-minded?
Microsoft was already a multi-million-dollar company when IBM came calling, FFS.
Sure doing BASIC for micro's but they didn't become a multi-BILLION dollar company till after IBM.
You might think so at first, because hey, you got a job you might not have otherwise received, but in reality you haven't benefited.
Money isn't a benefit?
That means you're going to be working with less skillful co-workers and that the competition is going to have a leg up on the company you work for because they hire more skilled employees.
But that doesn't always end with the less skilled company ending up on the bottom, does it. Microsoft?
Now it's your bigotry that's showing. I'd look very carefully at the attitudes that lead to people living in ghettos and keeping them there.
yes yes here we go again "It's all their own fault, they're just lazy and anti-intellectual"
Pay attention in particular to the parts about school segregation, school funding, and how home ownership turns into access to wealth.
I'm sure that you're familiar with people who are referred to as trailer park trash. A pejorative typically used for white people, but essentially it's just a way of saying white ghetto. Why did they fail to receive all of these benefits, boosts, etc. that you think everyone else received?
Here's the thing...they did get those boosts, if they hadn't they'd be even worse off. You've h eard about the opioid crisis in certain white-rural/semi-rural areas right? Well the reason that's happening, is because the same socio-econimic forces that created say the heroin and crack crisis in urban ghettos are now affecting Appalachia. It just took a bit longer because they had somewhat more resources to start with.
It's causing some frustration with those who know how to deal with certain issues, telling the people of these rural areas that they need to do what works and have needle exchanges and other programs and the rural folks are dismissing what the urban folks learned out of hand.
Or would you base your selection on whether or not that person comes from some group that you consider more deserving?
The thing is, some white people do that with white doctors. They also do that in other ways. Racism is still a thing you know.
The problem isn't that meritocracy is bad, it's that we don't have enough of it. Do you think fighting inequality with inequality will help anything?
Don't you realize that is the whole "the remedies for discrimination are reverse discrimination" argument used by many a privileged white libertarian/alt-right/conservative tech-guy we see on slashdot? It is usually used as an excuse to not do anything.
Personally I think REALLY desegregation society is a start. Making ALL the schools like some of those well-off surburban schools like New Trier here in Illinois.
I am that though. I rode my bike on garbage day through nicer neighborhoods and built my first computer out of literal scrap 386 machines found in the dump.
You were lucky to live in a place where there were nicer neighborhoods. And where the people in those neighborhoods jsut through out 386's in the trash.
What about the people who don't have nicer neighborhoods. Or who live in places where a computer of any kind would NEVER be thrown away.
I wasnt able to attend our schools elective C++ class
An elective C++ class is a luxury that most schools don't have.
Then I was "lucky" and hired for 60k/year by someone who met me at the conference and saw my passion.
So you got lucky and got the benefit of the same schmoozing the upper class folks do.
Keep writing off my hard work. Merit is real you jerks.
Me saying that we aren't a meritocracy, but a Plutocracy that masquerades as one doesn't invalidate your work...or luck. You made it, yes, but what about the people left behind. What about the people with MORE disadvantages due to race/ethnicity.
Maybe you had a -5 penalty in the RPG of life, but others might have a -10 or -15 or worse.
Of course it does. The GP's entire psychology is based up it.
Excuse me? When did "I" call someone in this discussion a Nazi?
Separating yourself from the situation and blaming others is easy.
Like the alt-right/libertarian guys who demonize minorities any chance they get? Who say that the problems they fact are all their fault and that society doesn't have ANY obligation to help because they're lazy or something?
And we have been teaching complaining as some sort of social good in the school system for the last 10 or 15 years. Turns out, when you teach people to complain instead of help, you end up with a situation where nobody helps,
What the hell are you talking about. Talking about what needs fixed is the FIRST STEP to fixing it. There's plenty of people who talk and then do things. It happens all the time. I don't know where you get these sorts of ideas that nobody helps.
The GP probably has probably never done anything remarkable their entire life but has been told consistently how great they are despite all evidence to the contrary. So someone else who actually does remarkable things must be bad because they disprove the GP's worldview.
Personal attacks? Really? and more of the "millenials are whiny snowflakes" bit? Who says I'm young?
Excuse me? Who am I calling Nazi? I didn't even use the word Nazi. All I did was say we really live in a Plutocracy and bigotry exists and people might benefit from it via the bigotry of others without knowing.
Are you thinking I sometimes post as one of those AC's who uses certain words on certain posters? Well no. I don't post AC.
The person I look at with a lot of respect is Willy Brown.
From wikipedia:
Brown originally wanted to attend Stanford University. His interviewer from Stanford was a faculty member at San Francisco State College and was surprised by Brown's ambition. Although Brown did not meet the qualifications for Stanford or San Francisco State, the professor facilitated Brown's admission to the latter school on probation.
That sounds like.....affirmative action, doesn't it.
You weren't born in a segregated town
You write that as if segregation is a thing that doesn't still exist.
That is not even a grammatically correct sentence, mate.
It should read something like: The "How do you respond to it" question, is just the usual alt-right/libertarian tactic to delay doing ANYTHING.
We know how to deal with it, it's just that the defenders of the current status quo, especially people like you, don't want to do those things.
Evidence? I won't ask again. You're staking your argument on a myth.
Jesus fucking Christ. Do NOT pull this citation needed bullshit on me. Do you not understand how schmoozing works? Opel and Mary Gates were on the same board. People on boards talk about many things, and often attend social events outside of meetings. One of the things people talk about as side chatter is family. All Mary had to do is mention her boy Bill who was in Seattle. She didn't have to know about the IBM project, or even mention Bill had a company. She didn't even have to mention Bill's name intentionally, she could have just been talking about her family in general.
Then when IBM folks discussed Microsoft all it would take is for Opel to think "Bill Gates? Thats' Mary's boy"
And THAT is a benefit.
but they didn't send him off to school to study computers. He took up that interest ON HIS OWN.
It is hard to have an interest in computers if your school doesn't have one does it.
Yes, but Gates still benefitted from the NAME and from the early access to computers his family's wealth gave him.
As I said, it's easy to be a pioneer in BASIC for microcomputers when you had access to BASIC in middle school when some colleges didn't have computers.
Or as I said about Robert Tappan Morris, of Morris Worm fame. It's easy to be considered a Unix genius when you get access to a Unix machine when you're a kid (IIRC he was around 10) and have a Bell Labs guy as a parent who can teach you and give you a head start when most kids didn't even have access to a microcomputer, let alone a login on a Bell Labs unix machine.
Slashdot Mirror
I have been a Linux user for many years with quite a few different distros and I have to agree with the other guy. I am running Xubuntu right now and nothing 'just works'.
I've been running Linux since 2002, RedHat type distros, though I have dabbled with a few debian based live distros, DSL, Puppy and Ubuntu. I'm currently running Fedora 29, which "just works"
A lot of the programs I want to use don't have documentation.
Now I would agree that there needs to be some improvement in documentation but it is VERY rare for an application to have no documentation. Not even a manpage? Which applications?
Very few program installers bother to add menu or desktop launcher entries
What? If it is an X application from the repos they almost always install a menu entry.
and it is by no means easy to do that manually.
Sure it is? Xubuntu right? Install MenuLibre (or LXMenuEditor), then you can add new launchers to the menu easily. I just did it to add "NetHack-X11" to my menu. (I compile nethack because I use certain optional features)
But it is easy enough to add them from a terminal, they're simple text files. I could have done the same thing by adding this:
[Desktop Entry] .nethackrc for X11
Version=1.1
Type=Application
Name=NetHack-X11
Comment=NetHack-X11, don't forget to edit the
Icon=/usr/games/lib/nethackdir/nh_icon.xpm
Exec=/usr/games/nethack
Actions=
Categories=Game;X-XFCE;X-Xfce-Toplevel;
To either my .local/share/applications directory or systemwide in /usr/local/share/applications/ as nethack-x11.desktop
yes it isn't that unusual for you to be expected to compile from source and without any instructions on how to do so.
It is VERY unusually to be expected to source compile and even rarer to not have a basic README giving basic compile instructions. Usually it's as easy as entering into the source directory and: ./configure
make
sudo make install
Now sometimes you might have to pass an option to the configure script to enable or disable a feature but that's something like: ./configure --enable-feature --disable-this-feature, ./configure --help will often tell you more.
But I VERY rarely have to compile anything, in fact my /usr/local/src directory only has 6 compiles in it and I'm what might be called a power-user.
I have spent weeks trying to figure out how to compile from source a linux web server I really would like to use, but I can't for the life of me figure it out.
Which one? Perhaps I can help.
In summary, no, Linux is most definitely not ready for general nontechnical users
Poppycock, I'm not a programmer, and as I said, I've been using Linux since 2002.
Exactly. It's an OS made for programmers, and it sucks for everyone else.
I am not a programmer and I have been using Linux since 2002. In fact, Slashdot articles about Linux are what encouraged me to try it out.
Until you can simply download and install (as opposed to: download, compile, build, tweak, fail, try again, find the correct version, try again again, still likely fail, eventually give up) a reasonably wide set of applications it simply can't catch on.
But you CAN simply download and install a wide variety of applications from software repositories. Some might call me a power user and I have only 6 binaries I've compiled myself on this system:
IDJC and libshout-idjc. IDJC is an internet DJ application, the ONLY reason I compile it is that the version in the repos is not using a few advanced features.
nethack and a cp437 utility. I only compile nethack because I enable a few optional features. I compile up cp437 utility so I can get proper IBMgraphics (and an Epyx Rogue looking rogue level) in my UTF-8 terminal.
overbitenx, there's a binary in there that needs to be compiled to use the overbitenx firefox extension that adds gopher support to modern firefox.
pterm, a Plato terminal emulator, which isn't in the repos.
That's it. The hardest one to compile is nethack, because it uses an archaic build configure method, rather than standard configure scripts. But I have a "recipe" I've been using for years. I just follow the recipe to edit the various conf files and Makefiles and I'm good to go. Basically I use the "unix" hints file and make the necessary edits to enable the features I use and also enable X11 support alongside the standard terminal version so I can play it either way.
Then you install the rpmfusion repo, which you're going to do anyway if you have a Nvidia graphics card. Think!
[CronoCloud@potos ~]$ sudo dnf search nintendo
Last metadata expiration check: 0:47:06 ago on Mon 08 Apr 2019 09:02:31 AM CDT.
Summary Matched: nintendo
desmume.x86_64 : A Nintendo DS emulator
zsnes.i686 : A Super Nintendo emulator
gcube.x86_64 : Nintendo Gamecube emulator
desmume-cli.x86_64 : A Nintendo DS emulator (CLI version)
gnome-nds-thumbnailer.x86_64 : Thumbnailer for Nintendo DS ROM files
fakenes.x86_64 : Nintendo Entertainment System emulator
desmume-glade.x86_64 : A Nintendo DS emulator (Glade GUI version)
gnuboy-x.x86_64 : Nintendo GameBoy Color emulator (X version)
snes9x.x86_64 : Super Nintendo Entertainment System emulator
gnuboy-sdl.x86_64 : Nintendo GameBoy Color emulator (SDL version)
gnuboy-svgalib.x86_64 : Nintendo GameBoy Color emulator (svgalib version)
gnuboy-fb.x86_64 : Nintendo GameBoy Color emulator (frame buffer version)
snes9x-gtk.x86_64 : Super Nintendo Entertainment System emulator - GTK version
Was the last time you used Linux, 2001 or something?
What? Firefox on Linux has had hardware acceleration for video decoding for YEARS. You need a relatively recent video card to accelerate decoding of Google's VP9 though. for Nvidia that's PureVideo feature set F or later. Basically the 750, 950, 960 and the 10xx, Titans, 20xx's, and 16xx's.
[CronoCloud@potos ~]$ ffmpeg -hwaccels
Hardware acceleration methods:
vdpau
cuda
vaapi
qsv
drm
opencl
qsv
cuvid
Native games or through Steamplay with Proton? I'm primarily use my PS4 for games, but I have tried a couple of games through Steamplay: Star Trek Online and Fallout 3.
Here's a database of games tested with Proton, which ones do or do not work. The number of working games keeps increasing over time
https://www.protondb.com/
And here's the native Linux/SteamOS games page on Steam:
https://store.steampowered.com...
Companies market "securely transfer files/info to client via a branded portal" services like these to professionals like lawyers/accountants. They tell her that's the way to be secure and keep your info secure. She doesn't know that yourself and herself can just use standard encryption tools.
And even if she DOES know about such things, and how to use such, some of her clients might be people or small businesses who aren't even as tech proficient as she is, so she might STILL use those web based "Secure transfer" services.
Now you and me, well...linux user, I've got gpg.
No, don't use passwords like "horse battery staple". It's vulnerable to dictionary attacks.
Do you know how many words there are in English? Do you know how each word adds even more entropy. Let along that password crackers don't know if you're using words at all. A long wordphrase password would look no different than a string of random letters and symbols created by a password manager.
incorrectbadhorsenimhbatteryredstapler is actually a better password than something like: "qymAYYv4AeLPMfnW"
OpenSUSE?
Lynx can do gopher, though the gopher links on the devuan page aren't clickable in Lynx. You can, however, hit "G" and type the gopher link in.
The gopher links didn't work in Lynx which surprised me. They aren't even clickable even if you have OverbiteNX installed, I had to copy the link to a new tab.
Hmmph, most libertarian tech guys are just alt-right conservatives who like porn and pot. They call themselves "libertarian" because they're "atheist rationalists" and associate "right wing" with evangelicals. But when you look at their actual views and opinions....they're alt-right. Think about it, and all those GNAA and "indo-chimp" posts from AC's. The tech-world is FULL of spoiled suburban-prep tech brats who read too much Heinlein, don't understand that Ayn Rand wrote Mary Sue sci-fi, and got told too many times how smart they were. And they know jack about the lives of anyone not as tech-spoiled as they were.
This whole thread is sort of like the time when a prominent Slashdot user declared an mp3 player dead-on-arrival
If by prominent you mean Slashdot founder Rob "CmdrTaco" Malda and if by dead-on-arrival you mean "No wireless, less space than a Nomad, lame."
Yes, we get it, you embrace post-modernism. Just consider that it's the philosophy that grew out of Communism, and the deaths of 160 million lie at the feet of the ideas you think are right
What the hell are you going on about? Post Modernism is associated with art, literature, architecture and philosophy. Do you even know what it is or are you just being parroting the words of some right wing kook like the aspie parrot many slashdotters are. Look it up, you won't find communism mentioned on the wikipedia page of post-modernism. You WILL find art, literature, architecture and so forth.
If anything Communism is associated with "Modernism", but neither Modernism or Post-modernism should be associated much with socio-economic systems.
You Pointing to me and saying "Post Modernist" and then saying "commie" is Red-baiting.
You think I'm a communist? Prove it. You'll find I've never said a positive thing about Stalin or Mao. And that I've never said the state should own the means of production...which is one of the things that define communism.
I really can't believe you are engaging in Red baiting in 2019?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Or to good description of what you are doing from Rationalwiki:
And also:
And by the way, I used the above text in response to ANOTHER alt-right/libertarian/right wing Slashdot asshat back in 2018.
This is one reason why I sometimes can derogatory towards tech guys, they tend to parrot things they don't really understand and have little familiarity with things outside of code/tech/geek hobbies. Maybe you watced a video where some "rationalist libertarian" with a shaved head and viking beard says he "destroys" liberals/SJW's/whatever by connecting them with communism via post-modernism. That doesn't mean he's right, or an expert. And you are no expert on anything that isn't code or tech.
This link, basically describes you, Mashiki, Roman-mir, mi, Archangel Michael, russoto, DNS-and-Bind, EpyT-r:
https://theoutline.com/post/70...
Read it, and realize what you are. Some dude on the spectrum who got told he was so smart in grade school/high school for so long that he got a big head and thinks he's an expert in everything. To put it in the vernacular: Stay in your lane, bro.
But I suspect you deny all correlation between choice and consequence
Using a strawman of putting words in my mouth I haven't actually said? Choices do have consequences, but external factors beyond one's control can and do limit the choices one can make.
But Cronyism is one of the things that means we don't have a meritocracy, we have a Plutocracy that masquerades as meritocracy.
And yes, there's people trying to make things more meritocratic with things like "blind auditions" but that doesn't mean that society isn't a Plutocracy as a whole.
I know how you libertarians and alt-right folks love the word "Meritocracy" it's kind of like a religion to you that makes you feel better. But we litterally don't live in one.
There is literally NOTHING to indicate Mary Gates knowing Opel had anything to do with MS getting the IBM deal.
No one is saying she had to know anything. Bill Gates befitted from the connection without her having to actually DO or know anything other than small talk about families. Do you now know how social connections work? Are you THAT literal-minded?
Microsoft was already a multi-million-dollar company when IBM came calling, FFS.
Sure doing BASIC for micro's but they didn't become a multi-BILLION dollar company till after IBM.
But this just shows that we need MORE meritocracy (i.e. choosing based on skill, not race), yet you advocate for the opposite
who says? I just mentioned Blind Auditions in a separate response!
You know the FAIR way to do that? Help *everyone* who is disadvantaged, regardless of race, equally.
Why yes.
So all the people who are rolling with a penalty get a bonus to even it out. Why do you guys never advocate for that?
We do, why do you think we don't? But you have to remember this:
While White and poor might have penalty to rolls due to poverty.
Black and poor is a double penalty, don't you think? Or do you believe that racism doesn't exist anymore.
Black and poor and GLBT...well now think about the penalty for THAT. Or do you believe that discrimination against GLBT people isn't a thing?
I want to help ALL those people, but you have to admit the bottom one probably has it harder in America than the other two.
You might think so at first, because hey, you got a job you might not have otherwise received, but in reality you haven't benefited.
Money isn't a benefit?
That means you're going to be working with less skillful co-workers and that the competition is going to have a leg up on the company you work for because they hire more skilled employees.
But that doesn't always end with the less skilled company ending up on the bottom, does it. Microsoft?
Now it's your bigotry that's showing. I'd look very carefully at the attitudes that lead to people living in ghettos and keeping them there.
yes yes here we go again "It's all their own fault, they're just lazy and anti-intellectual"
Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Pay attention in particular to the parts about school segregation, school funding, and how home ownership turns into access to wealth.
I'm sure that you're familiar with people who are referred to as trailer park trash. A pejorative typically used for white people, but essentially it's just a way of saying white ghetto. Why did they fail to receive all of these benefits, boosts, etc. that you think everyone else received?
Here's the thing...they did get those boosts, if they hadn't they'd be even worse off. You've h eard about the opioid crisis in certain white-rural/semi-rural areas right? Well the reason that's happening, is because the same socio-econimic forces that created say the heroin and crack crisis in urban ghettos are now affecting Appalachia. It just took a bit longer because they had somewhat more resources to start with.
It's causing some frustration with those who know how to deal with certain issues, telling the people of these rural areas that they need to do what works and have needle exchanges and other programs and the rural folks are dismissing what the urban folks learned out of hand.
Or would you base your selection on whether or not that person comes from some group that you consider more deserving?
The thing is, some white people do that with white doctors. They also do that in other ways. Racism is still a thing you know.
The problem isn't that meritocracy is bad, it's that we don't have enough of it. Do you think fighting inequality with inequality will help anything?
Don't you realize that is the whole "the remedies for discrimination are reverse discrimination" argument used by many a privileged white libertarian/alt-right/conservative tech-guy we see on slashdot? It is usually used as an excuse to not do anything.
Personally I think REALLY desegregation society is a start. Making ALL the schools like some of those well-off surburban schools like New Trier here in Illinois.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
I am that though. I rode my bike on garbage day through nicer neighborhoods and built my first computer out of literal scrap 386 machines found in the dump.
You were lucky to live in a place where there were nicer neighborhoods. And where the people in those neighborhoods jsut through out 386's in the trash.
What about the people who don't have nicer neighborhoods. Or who live in places where a computer of any kind would NEVER be thrown away.
I wasnt able to attend our schools elective C++ class
An elective C++ class is a luxury that most schools don't have.
Then I was "lucky" and hired for 60k/year by someone who met me at the conference and saw my passion.
So you got lucky and got the benefit of the same schmoozing the upper class folks do.
Keep writing off my hard work. Merit is real you jerks.
Me saying that we aren't a meritocracy, but a Plutocracy that masquerades as one doesn't invalidate your work...or luck. You made it, yes, but what about the people left behind. What about the people with MORE disadvantages due to race/ethnicity.
Maybe you had a -5 penalty in the RPG of life, but others might have a -10 or -15 or worse.
Of course it does. The GP's entire psychology is based up it.
Excuse me? When did "I" call someone in this discussion a Nazi?
Separating yourself from the situation and blaming others is easy.
Like the alt-right/libertarian guys who demonize minorities any chance they get? Who say that the problems they fact are all their fault and that society doesn't have ANY obligation to help because they're lazy or something?
And we have been teaching complaining as some sort of social good in the school system for the last 10 or 15 years. Turns out, when you teach people to complain instead of help, you end up with a situation where nobody helps,
What the hell are you talking about. Talking about what needs fixed is the FIRST STEP to fixing it. There's plenty of people who talk and then do things. It happens all the time. I don't know where you get these sorts of ideas that nobody helps.
The GP probably has probably never done anything remarkable their entire life but has been told consistently how great they are despite all evidence to the contrary. So someone else who actually does remarkable things must be bad because they disprove the GP's worldview.
Personal attacks? Really? and more of the "millenials are whiny snowflakes" bit? Who says I'm young?
Excuse me? Who am I calling Nazi? I didn't even use the word Nazi. All I did was say we really live in a Plutocracy and bigotry exists and people might benefit from it via the bigotry of others without knowing.
Are you thinking I sometimes post as one of those AC's who uses certain words on certain posters? Well no. I don't post AC.
How could you not know that "Blind auditions" are a thing that exists and has worked in the professional orchestral scene
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Modify the techniques for other purposes, which in fact, is already being done.
The person I look at with a lot of respect is Willy Brown.
From wikipedia:
That sounds like.....affirmative action, doesn't it.
You weren't born in a segregated town
You write that as if segregation is a thing that doesn't still exist.
That is not even a grammatically correct sentence, mate.
It should read something like: The "How do you respond to it" question, is just the usual alt-right/libertarian tactic to delay doing ANYTHING.
We know how to deal with it, it's just that the defenders of the current status quo, especially people like you, don't want to do those things.
Evidence? I won't ask again. You're staking your argument on a myth.
Jesus fucking Christ. Do NOT pull this citation needed bullshit on me. Do you not understand how schmoozing works? Opel and Mary Gates were on the same board. People on boards talk about many things, and often attend social events outside of meetings. One of the things people talk about as side chatter is family. All Mary had to do is mention her boy Bill who was in Seattle. She didn't have to know about the IBM project, or even mention Bill had a company. She didn't even have to mention Bill's name intentionally, she could have just been talking about her family in general.
Then when IBM folks discussed Microsoft all it would take is for Opel to think "Bill Gates? Thats' Mary's boy"
And THAT is a benefit.
but they didn't send him off to school to study computers. He took up that interest ON HIS OWN.
It is hard to have an interest in computers if your school doesn't have one does it.
Yes, but Gates still benefitted from the NAME and from the early access to computers his family's wealth gave him.
As I said, it's easy to be a pioneer in BASIC for microcomputers when you had access to BASIC in middle school when some colleges didn't have computers.
Or as I said about Robert Tappan Morris, of Morris Worm fame. It's easy to be considered a Unix genius when you get access to a Unix machine when you're a kid (IIRC he was around 10) and have a Bell Labs guy as a parent who can teach you and give you a head start when most kids didn't even have access to a microcomputer, let alone a login on a Bell Labs unix machine.