JP-4 and 5 (jet fuel) can burn at temperatures as high as 1100 Celsius. If you dont think that is enough to melt steel, you are daft.
Also, these fuels would not vaporize as you might imagine. Just as likely that 50% or more of the fuel in those aircraft were absorbed into carpet, paper and other permeable materials long enough to provide a torching effect. Plenty of oxygen would be available from under the effected floors via stairs and elevator shafts. Your own lying eyes would show you that fires continued until the moment of collapse in both buildings.
Why you liberals insist on believing all that bullshit propaganda about a draft is beyond me.
Guess what, genius? Every branch of the Military reported last week that they have each met their enlistment goals for the current year. Enlistments have actually gone WAY up. They were up last year too, in spite of the war.
And then we have the tired DU arguement, when there is NO science whatsoever suggesting any significant danger from DU rounds. Men place those rounds into A-10 Warthogs and AC-130 Gunships every fucking day, and I dont see airmen dropping dead in numbers. Do you? No. Read up on Depleted Uranium before spouting off, why dont you?>
But, hey, never let the facts get in the way of your alarmist nonsense, when its all you have, hell you've got another election to lose! Sorry dude, but you are going to have to come up with another method of scaring voters into voting for your side. The facts dont help you at all.
What Microsoft fears is a development paradigm that allows the creation of rich, cross-platform applications. Microsoft knows one of the keys to its monopoly position is the standardization around key applications like Excel, PowerPoint, etc.
That is wrong.
Microsoft could not care less about cross-platform development, no matter how rich an app you develop. Microsoft cares about Windows, Windows and oh yeah, WINDOWS. If somebody wants to build something to compete cross platform with Excel, I think their attitude is "Go for it!" Competition makes Microsoft stronger. They could use the excitement, trust me.
On the other hand, a niche product like Readerware's CD-cataloguing software, which is written in Java, is available for Windows, Macintosh, Linux, and Palm. This software is written by a very small team with limited resources, possibly one person. Do you think Readerware's choice of Java had anything to do with the wide platform selection they are able to offer?
You are kidding, right? Look, how much cash do you think that app is taking from Windows, Windows, and what is that other thing.....WINDOWS? Microsoft's cash comes from Windows and Office. Nobody, NOBODY is anywhere close to denting Microsoft's cash flow in these areas. Suppose somebody wants to run Readerware software, Odds are 2 to 1 that they will end up running it on Windows. Microsoft wins! Even if they run Readerware somewhere else, it is not an app that is going to cause someone to give up MS Office on a Mac or Windows Machine in order to use it.
I think you're wrong about this too. Microsoft would have forked Java so that it still would have been easy to develop MS-Java programs but useless, or at least difficult, for the task of creating programs for non-MS platforms.
Why would they bother? Java would never become as easy as VB for Microsoft apps. The problems with COM were as responsible for.NET as was J2EE. Try to imagine what would have happened had Microsoft released C# without a Visual Studio, and then you would have what happened to Sun. In fact, the thing holding back C# adoption the most, is the fact that it came from Microsoft.
Rogueware was not challenging Microsoft by offering a competing VB runtime that was incompatible with Microsoft's own. Rogueware was not hoping that their VB runitme would someday supplant Microsoft's. However, that is precisely what Microsoft was hoping to do to Sun's Java.
That is because Microsoft could. No, little Roguewave was not about to supplant Visual Studio with their reusable components, but they made millions selling them to Visual Studio users along with a few dozen other tools vendors. If you ever tried to deal with Sun, you know that they never did anything to make life easier for Java developers, and they had few partners ready at launch to do so either.
Now, suppose Eclipse had been around at the time of Java's launch, along with the Java committment from IBM. Do you think things might have been a little different? I sure do.
My words speak for themselves. Everyone not stupid here knows I used to work for Microsoft, I've never made a secret of that. If you want to cherry-pick my words in response to an attack on the facts, go right ahead. As I said earlier, the rest is History.
If you dont like the facts, give me one, ONE fact to dispute them. You cant. Dont give me your opinions, because I dont care. Give me disputing evidence. Those so-called irrelevant quotes, seemed quite relevent to the judge who allowed them into evidence, so again you are wrong.
Facts as flamebait? Way to argue. If you can dispute the facts, then do that, dont just mod it down because you dont like it.
Mods act just like Sun did. Cant argue, cant win, so complain. Typical. I would add that Sun cant sell Java now, even if they want to. They dont own it anymore. Now, there is some flamebait for your ass.
Sorry, but I was there. My history is dead on accurate, and the results are their for all to see. You may not like it, (you actually read like one of the Sun losers we negotiated with) but the fact remains that Sun KNEW what we were doing, and admitted so in their internal emails.
Remember these, Smart boy?
"Microsoft was smarter than us when we did the contract...What I find most annoying is that no one at Sun saw this coming...I wonder what is in other contracts...If we adhere to these terms, new Java and Java Platform functionality must be developed as Supplemental Classes without dependence on new features in the Java Classes or it must have Microsoft buy-in...."
David Spenhoff, Director of Product Marketing at JavaSoft
MS Opp. To 17200 Motion At 9:21-10:9
[The contract] "...subtantially limits our ability to introduce new technologies since almost all new technologies require a new class...I believe we're in violation of the Microsoft contract and our attempt to re-class things as Extensions will have limited success."
Eric Chu, JDK 1.1 Product Manager and David Bowen, JDK Engineering Manager
MS Opp. To 17200 Motion At 10:12-21
"If negotiation with Microsoft is not going well, we can possibly 'enhance' the Java Test Suite to invalidate any Java implementation that doesn't support certain desired new feature. I believe this should be one of the last card we play if negotiation goes badly.
Eric Chu, JDK 1.1 Product Manager
MS Opp. To 17200 Motion At 11:1-4
My history is dead on, asshole. Sun hated that they had to play with us. They knew we had done a better job with Java up to that point than they did. Instead of being concerned about their developers or the potential HUGE market for Java, they tried to suck everything back under their own umbrella. The rest is HISTORY.
I said C# rocks. If you develop Windows applications, there is nothing better. Before, the choice was to use C++ and take a long amount of time, or use VB and get crap out the door quickly. C# (and VB.NET) lets Windows developers avoid the pitfalls of VB and the complexity of C++. Does that rock enough for you?
And show me anything, anywhere that matches MSDN as a developer resource for any platform. I dont particpate in religious wars about whether Java or C# is the better language anymore. I'm just glad that I something other than Java for Windows development.
Does anyone have enough sense to realize that my comments were related to the job market? I know damn well that obsolete stuff is still in use, but that does not mean that there is a thriving market for jobs in those areas. Consider the context of my statement, please.
Would the Sun/MS debacle have unfolded any differently if the source code for Java had been available under the GPL?
If Sun had GPL'd Java early on, there would be no.NET today. There would be no need, as Java would have become the de-facto language for Windows applications and Microsoft would have been forced to go along. Java would benefit from Microsoft's strength in Dev-tools, and anything good that Microsoft came up with would have been shared across platforms.
Sun expected Java to do for them what Visual Basic did for Microsoft, but they were stupid about it. When Visual Basic came out, Microsoft created a huge market for tools vendors like Roguewave and others without giving them a rectal exam everytime they came up with something to keep them under their thumb. Sun could have done the same thing, allowing people to create Solaris widgets and stuff, but Sun should have had a decent IDE available at the time of Java's initial release for all this aftermarket stuff to fold into.
Sun thought that good press equaled big money, and they did not listen to anyone about how to build a market. People took Java and left Sun behind.
They went for the bigger offer, but the smaller market. They bet on Java, when they could have bet on.NET. The Java market is still bigger now, but Java may die on the vine if Sun doesnt sell it, and I dont think they will, as long as Microsoft is paying their bills.
Rational now will have to deal with Whitehorse and their sales will go south in the Windows market until corporations get a chance to compare it to Rational products. If Whitehorse becomes part of the MSDN subscription (and it will) then who is Rational going to sell to? Visio may have sucked enough to keep.NET developers buying Rational tools, but Whitehorse wont, and IBM will be stuck with another LOTUS. Great technology with too small a market for profitability.
If the corporate world decides that Java will not be supported with improvements from Sun, and without IBM able to take over due to no Open Sourced version, they will drop Java faster than you can say C#. Nobody is going to run their business on obsolete stuff, no matter how good it is now.
Your point is 100% accurate, and every single one of them was made by Microsoft to Sun at the time in question.
The problem was too many of Sun's people were pissed off that Microsoft's first JVM was blowing the doors of Sun's and every publication said so. People at Sun were too worried that Java would become too closely associated with Microsoft, and Sun would be forgotten as the creator of Java. You had people running around basking in the glow of their favorable Java press, more worried about losing it, than about how they were going to make money.
Microsoft went so far as to offer to show Sun how they had optimised Java in exchange for permission to continue their work. Sun thought in unacceptable that Microsoft be known as doing Java better than they did, so they pulled the plug on their largest potential market out of pure spite over being outdone.
I'm glad they did, because C# rocks. Sun never gave a damn about their developer community, they only cared about making sure no one else got any credit at all.
In fact, I would bet that the conversation was along the lines of Sun giving up the Java fight, in exchange for MS producing a 64bit SPARC compatible version of Windows Server 2003.
If Sun chips can compete, great. If not, Sun becomes the largest vendor for AMD.
There is a market for Sun for mid range servers.
However, there is not a PROFITABLE market for Sun in Mid Range Servers. IBM and HP will eat their lunch, as Sun cannot compete in a price war.
Sun is out of options.
a retooling that will allow them to return to profitablility in the near future.
A retooling, huh?
By tools, do you mean Win64, and.NET? That is the only 'retooling' where Sun stand to make any money. Every thing Sun does right now is being done better and cheaper by someone else.
The only person looking to by Sun Hardware is Captain Ahab.
Are you listening, Stacey's? Clear the window displays. Beat Amazon and Bookpool to the punch! Time to clear out all that old WROX trash you've been storing in the basement for just such an occasion.
It doesnt matter whether the EU sticks by its guns, because Microsoft will never comply with this ruling. This is their line in the sand. If they lose now, they will lose the ability to define what goes in their future products. They would rather not sell in Europe at all, and let European organizations get their software from distributers in the US.
Will the EU fine companies for using Microsoft products? I dont think so. All they have to do is appeal, appeal and appeal some more. In the end, the EU will buckle and seek a settlement to save face. It may be 2-3 years out, but dont kid yourself. Microsoft will never let governments decide what goes in their future products.
Atlas will shrug before Microsoft loses this one. Time and money trump anything the EU has on their side.
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Also, these fuels would not vaporize as you might imagine. Just as likely that 50% or more of the fuel in those aircraft were absorbed into carpet, paper and other permeable materials long enough to provide a torching effect. Plenty of oxygen would be available from under the effected floors via stairs and elevator shafts. Your own lying eyes would show you that fires continued until the moment of collapse in both buildings.
So shut up.
And then we have the tired DU arguement, when there is NO science whatsoever suggesting any significant danger from DU rounds. Men place those rounds into A-10 Warthogs and AC-130 Gunships every fucking day, and I dont see airmen dropping dead in numbers. Do you? No. Read up on Depleted Uranium before spouting off, why dont you?>
But, hey, never let the facts get in the way of your alarmist nonsense, when its all you have, hell you've got another election to lose! Sorry dude, but you are going to have to come up with another method of scaring voters into voting for your side. The facts dont help you at all.
That is wrong.
Microsoft could not care less about cross-platform development, no matter how rich an app you develop. Microsoft cares about Windows, Windows and oh yeah, WINDOWS. If somebody wants to build something to compete cross platform with Excel, I think their attitude is "Go for it!" Competition makes Microsoft stronger. They could use the excitement, trust me.
On the other hand, a niche product like Readerware's CD-cataloguing software, which is written in Java, is available for Windows, Macintosh, Linux, and Palm. This software is written by a very small team with limited resources, possibly one person. Do you think Readerware's choice of Java had anything to do with the wide platform selection they are able to offer?
You are kidding, right? Look, how much cash do you think that app is taking from Windows, Windows, and what is that other thing.....WINDOWS? Microsoft's cash comes from Windows and Office. Nobody, NOBODY is anywhere close to denting Microsoft's cash flow in these areas. Suppose somebody wants to run Readerware software, Odds are 2 to 1 that they will end up running it on Windows. Microsoft wins! Even if they run Readerware somewhere else, it is not an app that is going to cause someone to give up MS Office on a Mac or Windows Machine in order to use it.
I think you're wrong about this too. Microsoft would have forked Java so that it still would have been easy to develop MS-Java programs but useless, or at least difficult, for the task of creating programs for non-MS platforms.
Why would they bother? Java would never become as easy as VB for Microsoft apps. The problems with COM were as responsible for .NET as was J2EE. Try to imagine what would have happened had Microsoft released C# without a Visual Studio, and then you would have what happened to Sun. In fact, the thing holding back C# adoption the most, is the fact that it came from Microsoft.
Rogueware was not challenging Microsoft by offering a competing VB runtime that was incompatible with Microsoft's own. Rogueware was not hoping that their VB runitme would someday supplant Microsoft's. However, that is precisely what Microsoft was hoping to do to Sun's Java.
That is because Microsoft could. No, little Roguewave was not about to supplant Visual Studio with their reusable components, but they made millions selling them to Visual Studio users along with a few dozen other tools vendors. If you ever tried to deal with Sun, you know that they never did anything to make life easier for Java developers, and they had few partners ready at launch to do so either.
Now, suppose Eclipse had been around at the time of Java's launch, along with the Java committment from IBM. Do you think things might have been a little different? I sure do.
Ask Scott McNeely if he still believes that today.
If you dont like the facts, give me one, ONE fact to dispute them. You cant. Dont give me your opinions, because I dont care. Give me disputing evidence. Those so-called irrelevant quotes, seemed quite relevent to the judge who allowed them into evidence, so again you are wrong.
Facts as flamebait? Way to argue. If you can dispute the facts, then do that, dont just mod it down because you dont like it.
Mods act just like Sun did. Cant argue, cant win, so complain. Typical. I would add that Sun cant sell Java now, even if they want to. They dont own it anymore. Now, there is some flamebait for your ass.
Remember these, Smart boy?
"Microsoft was smarter than us when we did the contract...What I find most annoying is that no one at Sun saw this coming...I wonder what is in other contracts...If we adhere to these terms, new Java and Java Platform functionality must be developed as Supplemental Classes without dependence on new features in the Java Classes or it must have Microsoft buy-in...."
David Spenhoff, Director of Product Marketing at JavaSoft
MS Opp. To 17200 Motion At 9:21-10:9
[The contract] "...subtantially limits our ability to introduce new technologies since almost all new technologies require a new class...I believe we're in violation of the Microsoft contract and our attempt to re-class things as Extensions will have limited success."
Eric Chu, JDK 1.1 Product Manager and David Bowen, JDK Engineering Manager
MS Opp. To 17200 Motion At 10:12-21
"If negotiation with Microsoft is not going well, we can possibly 'enhance' the Java Test Suite to invalidate any Java implementation that doesn't support certain desired new feature. I believe this should be one of the last card we play if negotiation goes badly.
Eric Chu, JDK 1.1 Product Manager MS Opp. To 17200 Motion At 11:1-4
My history is dead on, asshole. Sun hated that they had to play with us. They knew we had done a better job with Java up to that point than they did. Instead of being concerned about their developers or the potential HUGE market for Java, they tried to suck everything back under their own umbrella. The rest is HISTORY.
I said C# rocks. If you develop Windows applications, there is nothing better. Before, the choice was to use C++ and take a long amount of time, or use VB and get crap out the door quickly. C# (and VB.NET) lets Windows developers avoid the pitfalls of VB and the complexity of C++. Does that rock enough for you?
And show me anything, anywhere that matches MSDN as a developer resource for any platform. I dont particpate in religious wars about whether Java or C# is the better language anymore. I'm just glad that I something other than Java for Windows development.
Does anyone have enough sense to realize that my comments were related to the job market? I know damn well that obsolete stuff is still in use, but that does not mean that there is a thriving market for jobs in those areas. Consider the context of my statement, please.
If Sun had GPL'd Java early on, there would be no .NET today. There would be no need, as Java would have become the de-facto language for Windows applications and Microsoft would have been forced to go along. Java would benefit from Microsoft's strength in Dev-tools, and anything good that Microsoft came up with would have been shared across platforms.
Sun expected Java to do for them what Visual Basic did for Microsoft, but they were stupid about it. When Visual Basic came out, Microsoft created a huge market for tools vendors like Roguewave and others without giving them a rectal exam everytime they came up with something to keep them under their thumb. Sun could have done the same thing, allowing people to create Solaris widgets and stuff, but Sun should have had a decent IDE available at the time of Java's initial release for all this aftermarket stuff to fold into.
Sun thought that good press equaled big money, and they did not listen to anyone about how to build a market. People took Java and left Sun behind.
Rational now will have to deal with Whitehorse and their sales will go south in the Windows market until corporations get a chance to compare it to Rational products. If Whitehorse becomes part of the MSDN subscription (and it will) then who is Rational going to sell to? Visio may have sucked enough to keep .NET developers buying Rational tools, but Whitehorse wont, and IBM will be stuck with another LOTUS. Great technology with too small a market for profitability.
Oh yeah, I forgot about all those job openings for NT4, my bad.
Isnt that better than what you have with Sun, where Java benefits everyone but Sun? What situation would you rather have for a corporation?
If the corporate world decides that Java will not be supported with improvements from Sun, and without IBM able to take over due to no Open Sourced version, they will drop Java faster than you can say C#. Nobody is going to run their business on obsolete stuff, no matter how good it is now.
The problem was too many of Sun's people were pissed off that Microsoft's first JVM was blowing the doors of Sun's and every publication said so. People at Sun were too worried that Java would become too closely associated with Microsoft, and Sun would be forgotten as the creator of Java. You had people running around basking in the glow of their favorable Java press, more worried about losing it, than about how they were going to make money.
Microsoft went so far as to offer to show Sun how they had optimised Java in exchange for permission to continue their work. Sun thought in unacceptable that Microsoft be known as doing Java better than they did, so they pulled the plug on their largest potential market out of pure spite over being outdone.
I'm glad they did, because C# rocks. Sun never gave a damn about their developer community, they only cared about making sure no one else got any credit at all.
The most likely thing is that Sun is going to just sell AMD chips, sell Java to IBM who can decide to go Open Source or not(I bet NOT), and adopt .NET.
If Sun chips can compete, great. If not, Sun becomes the largest vendor for AMD.
There is a market for Sun for mid range servers. However, there is not a PROFITABLE market for Sun in Mid Range Servers. IBM and HP will eat their lunch, as Sun cannot compete in a price war. Sun is out of options.
A retooling, huh?
By tools, do you mean Win64, and .NET? That is the only 'retooling' where Sun stand to make any money. Every thing Sun does right now is being done better and cheaper by someone else.
The only person looking to by Sun Hardware is Captain Ahab.
The guy has been eating words faster than any of his chips could run Java. I hope he's got a lifetime supply of Rolaids.
Money talks, Sun employees walk.
leave if I want to....leave if I want to. You would leave to if it happened to you.... da da da da da da da.
There is hope, there is optimism, then there is fucking NUTS.
Are you listening, Stacey's? Clear the window displays. Beat Amazon and Bookpool to the punch! Time to clear out all that old WROX trash you've been storing in the basement for just such an occasion.
It doesnt matter whether the EU sticks by its guns, because Microsoft will never comply with this ruling. This is their line in the sand. If they lose now, they will lose the ability to define what goes in their future products. They would rather not sell in Europe at all, and let European organizations get their software from distributers in the US. Will the EU fine companies for using Microsoft products? I dont think so. All they have to do is appeal, appeal and appeal some more. In the end, the EU will buckle and seek a settlement to save face. It may be 2-3 years out, but dont kid yourself. Microsoft will never let governments decide what goes in their future products. Atlas will shrug before Microsoft loses this one. Time and money trump anything the EU has on their side.