Slashdot Mirror
Java Evangelist Leaves Sun After MS Settlement
aeoo writes "The Register says that Rich Green, the vice president of developer platforms and the major public voice for Java is 'quitting Sun in disgust' due to the recent settlement between Sun and Microsoft. The article hints that there may be more to follow. On the other hand, there is an article at eWeek with a different slant, saying that Rich Green tendered his resignation prior to the settlement. What impact, if any, will this have on open sourcing Java? It looks like Sun is still considering it."
Having a billion plus dollars of cash infusion should be even more of a reason for Java to take up more Open Source Development and support this nicely flowering community of adept programmers, testers and beneficiaries. However, a sneaky Dogbert spy might infiltrate the contract Sun signed, causing Sun to breach contract if they support Open Source (Microsoft likely didn't do this but it would not surprise me at all if they did, because I've never known Bill Gates to part with any money without getting something in return). Time will indeed tell if this settlement spells doom for Sun's human capitol, although if I'm right about Dogbert, then it likely will result in some really rich seedling startups being formed in wake of Sun's slow demise.
Sun is scared to open-source Java because the "zealots" will end up turning it into LISP.
It's been nice knowing ya. Here comes .NET!
This could be a great thing for the open source community. Maybe we'll all get lucky and he'll join up with an open source 'java' project like Tomcat, JBoss or others.
Given the nature of Microsoft's initial intentions (not interoperability, but domination), I would understand his fury. He seems to be a man of his word and put his money where his mouth was - which you have to respect, whether you agreed with him or not, and is more than you can say about MSFT.
Can someone explain(without using M$) what exactly happened between SUN and MS?
And what the possible effects it may have?
When I first read about Microsoft paying off Sun, I wondered how long it would be before we started seeing Sun's support (not tech support necessarily) for Java begin to evaporate. Wow, it took all weekend. Can't say I'm suprised though. $1.6 billion will buy a lot of goodwill.
shall inherit the world. Let the back stabbing begin. I can't help but feel IBM is the best benefactor of this deal with two arch rivals. Or is this an united effort between MS and Sun to combat IBM?
Can anybody explain to me how somebody quitting over Sun's decision to work with Microsoft actually brings Java closer to being open source? Sorry to burst a bubble, but on the face of it, Sun's getting further from considering that...
Zealots may be bad for business, but Utralisks are bad for everything!!!
leave if I want to....leave if I want to. You would leave to if it happened to you.... da da da da da da da.
Odds are more likely he'll take a position with a salary commensurate with having bee a VP at Sun.
Timeline 2004-2007:
1. Sun will turn anti-Linux
2. IBM will offer to buy Java from Sun (Sun will refuse)
3. The next software war will involve Microsoft and IBM directly
4. IBM will win.
It takes one monopolist to beat another.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
Okay.
..."
... Yes."
... Yeah."
..."
So what did he say as he was leaving?
GREEN: "What do you think this is about? Hmmm? MONEY?"
MCNEALY: "Well, um
JOY: "Actually, yes."
MCNEALY: "Well, okay, yeah, yes. I would have to, yeah
GREEN: "Oh, so THAT'S the way it is. So you've coldly abandoned the noble principles of SOFTWARE!?!?"
JOY: "Uhhh
MCNEALY: "The what?"
GREEN: "Well if all you people care about is 2 billion measly dollars, I'M LEAVING!!!"
JOY: "Okay."
MCNEALY: "Yeah, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out
Chr0m0Dr0m!C
Claiming that Green had decided to leave Sun two months agao is not a direct contradiction to the claim that he left over the recently announced settlement with Microsoft. For all well know, the talks leading to that deal could have been going on for months, and Green certainly would have had inside access to how they were going.
Good odds of this me says.
However, a Sun spokesperson said Green actually tendered his resignation "long before last week. It was coincidental timing, not related timing."
You mean to say that there was no indication to a top internal person that the decision to accept a 2B payoff was being considered, until exactly when it happened? Almost certainly he agreed to wait until the decision was announced before he quit. The fact that he decided "long before" does not mean it was unrelated...
It might be mistaken as a description of Scheme's features.
--Bogus
I am not a great fan of Sun , but come on, it's their product and whether they choose to open source it or not, should be their decission. After all isn't that what choice is all about ?
If the only choice left is open source , then what choice is it ?
Besides , the java specs are wide open for the world to see and implement . So what's the problem , don't the companies of the likes of IBM, BEA , etc have developers who can code if not any better , atleat on par with sun's java developers ?
Now if by open sourcing , they mean, relinquish the control over Java Specs, then that's a totally different thing. And even to that I don't agree, Sun after all did put in a lot of time and efforts to make Java acceptable in the Corporate world.
Merits and Demerits of Java asides, no one can deny the fact that Java is being used for a lot of business software development. And Corporate world is always more welcoming to Products backed up be business oriented companies than a utopic concept. Don't forget that linux is gaining acceptance in the corporate world , mostly because of the efforts of IBM , rather than the collective RTFM attitude of most kernel developers.
For all those who want Java to be open sourced, or open speced (if there is such a word) , why not divert some of those efforts in creating a cross platform development language, and make it as acceptable in the corporate world as Java. Then the problem will automatically go away.
for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
McNealy finally grew up, and therefore Sun's corporate policy with respect to Microsoft finally grew up. They were fighting a losing battle against the software titan and Linux--and McNealy must have known this for a long time, because the deal recently struck with Microsoft had actually been in the works for a good long while. Corporate contacts were reportedly telling him to grow up, and it looks as if he has, if not in spirit, then at least in practice.
They are a power player and have no intention of fading away, and they have invested far too much in Java to let it fade away either. And regarding Java itself, there are great things that both Sun and Microsoft have done for it (from a purely objective standpoint of programming, this is very true, and if you can't see that, you're blinded by dogma). The agreement between Sun and Microsoft is specifically designed to facilitate interoperability, and of course this includes Java, and Java components and applications.
It may not be the direction some had originally envisioned, but prevalence (or heck, just survival, if you consider worst-case scenarios) in a different form is often a far better outcome than the death of the original due to obstinacy. If Mr. Green is so dedicated to an outmoded cause that he's willing to give up his employment at Sun, well, I'll give him points for principle but none for pragmatism.
I have no illusions that Sun is going to open-source one of its most prized, closely-guarded secrets. They are almost Microsoftian in the protection of certain code. Even Green himself said, "Neither IBM nor Sun knows if it's feasible to fulfill the [open source goal] and meet the constraints." That's not a full-fledged denial, but it definitely represents uncertainty, and Sun's pact with Microsoft has perhaps provided a more secure context in which they can continue to develop and market their proprietary products, now armed with a few new advantages.
The coolest voice ever.
If we want an open source Java, I think the right thing to pursue is Kaffe, gcj, and Gnu CLASSPATH. I would love it if Sun did open source Java and such an action may be the best way to ensure Java's long-term survival, but somehow I have a feeling that Scott and the Sun lawyers won't have the guts or the will to take the risks and do this.
--------
Create a WAP server
And yet when I suggested in a Slashdot story that the cosying-up might affect the direction of Java, I got three responses saying that it would most likely not have any effect at all and that I was foolish for saying so. I thought it would be fairly obvious that Micro$oft is going to start applying pressure to those affiliated with Java to step off.
Would be cool if it happened, but does not seem like it. This article actually indicates that Green played a role in brokering the deal -
... ...
In fact, the Santa Clara, Calif.-based company said Green played an essential role in Sun's negotiations with Microsoft to come to last week's 10-year, $1.6 billion deal.
Meanwhile, Sun would not disclose where Green was going, but said the company has held the position "for quite a while" for him. Said one source: "He didn't want to leave until the Microsoft deal was done."
And here is the blurb from the ZDNet article -
A Sun representative said Green was instrumental in brokering the company's legal settlement with Microsoft.
The first article also says that Green is planning on doing a startup. Therefore, whatever it was, Green would have definitely received significant amount of compensation for his role.
Which would mean that, him going renegade and helping start something Opensource based on Java would be quite unlikely. When big sums of money are involved, especially with companies like Microsoft, you can be assured that they would have taken due precautions precisely against this kind of thing - especially since he was supposed to testify against them.
On the other hand, he *might* just rally to make Java Opensource - which I believe, is more likely.
What could Sun achieve by proceeding with its 2002 lawsuit? McNealy had presented the fight in apocalyptic terms: Mankind vs Microsoft.
Sun staff must be wondering if the company, which defined itself by its opposition to Microsoft, has a reason to exist.
What does Sun stand for, now?
JBoss just raised a bunch of cash...any JBoss HR types out there that can make this guy an offer?
Can anyone tell me how Java performs on Mac OS X?
Good luck getting an unbiased answer on that one.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Yes, Sadly...
I never clicked him myself.
MS created me..
in soviet russia it fails you.
It's starting to sound like MS bought some Java. There's a lot of shady information about the deal between the companies, and that "undisclosed" amount of money Sun will be paying is awfully curious.
Sun is really dumb for doing this. They don't stand a chance of competing long-term with Linux/Windows & Intel/AMD. Their main asset is Java, not their hardware or operating system. If they've just given MS some control over their most valuable asset, then they may have just dug their own grave.
Go here for teh [sic] funny.
He looks kind of out of place to me. Makes me feel like I'm looking at a product endorsement in Electric Guitar World magazine or something.
It's a bit on the slow side. Fair enough?
Political correctness is the newest form of slavery.
I'm not trying to troll but I think the best thing for the community is to have some standards. Right now Java is a great cross-platform language. Sun still needs to make money to survive and compete against the likes of Microsoft. For now I believe closed Java is for the best.
I thank Sun everyday for releasing Star Office. I use Open Office at work and at home but also realize that a business must have cash flow to survive.
I bet $10 that this fellow gets a new job at Microsoft for advocating C# and .NET in less than a month ;)
I call dibs.
Already faxed my resume to Sun's HR.
There were a lot of articles on various news sites saying that Sun and Microsoft had buried the hatchet, in order to concentrate on their common enemy: Linux.
I looked through the articles, but did not see any Sun quotes that were clearly hostile towards Linux. Although, that has been true all along, in public Sun always said Linux was a good thing, but in private Sun employees I know were not exactly Linux fans.
Were there any Sun statements made against Linux? Or were the journalists just connecting the dots?
Then, there are the Sun involvement in SCO issues. From the beginning, Sun has only touted their fully licensed Unix, they have not ever offered any support of the Linux position. Many people think they are one of the main parties behind the SCO lawsuit.
So, a bit slow (as always ;)
Door to Door Evangelist Leaves Sun After Getting Burn in the Ass by a Solar Flare
"There is no teacher but the enemy."-Mazer Rackham
Well atleast there are still some good, old-fashioned, principled guys left in this desolate, dot-bombed, innovation deprived software landscape. I mean that's all that's going on in software for past 3-4 years - corporate restructuring i.e. the suits saving their own butts and their buddies' butts (consolidation and offshoring) and now Sun buries the hatchet. To me that seems so wasteful, of time, energy, resources, and good will.
$un has floundered one thing after another. Got onto Linux, dumped linux, then a wishy washy strategy, and then sided with SCO. What is $un trying to be - Golum?
After all according to you people (OSS apologists), Java is buggy and bloated, right? We hear that on a daily basis from you Zealots every time Java is mentioned. Why should you care if some inferior piece of software eventually dies? Instead of harping on the "enemy", shouldn't you be improving your own chosen codebase? You people are the software equivalent of Muslim extremists. Instead of tending to your own code (soul), you wage some fanatical war (jihad) against a self-manufactured enemy.
Would a gig of RAM fix the speed problem?
At the rate Sun is burning through cash, I wouldn't be surprised if this guy was part of an upcoming round of layoffs anyway. $2 billion is a frickin' ton of money for anyone, but Sun lost nearly half that in their past year alone.
When you consider the amount that Microsoft just used to pay off Sun, the EU fine is relatively small potatoes. Of course, they're already getting an ROI from the Sun pay-off.
I think he quit because career-wise, it's not great to stick around while Sun quickly becomes just another SCO.
Parent post taken verbatim from http://www.theregister.com/content/7/36777.html
Any way it goes, Sun has obviously made their choice between Microsoft and open source. Only time will tell if the open source community responds to their choice with favor or with scorn.
He'll come back as Anders Hejlsberg II. Long live Object Pascal er uh, Delphi, er uh Java!
Delegates and C# for everyone!
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
Sun is a Hardware vendor first and a Software vendor second.
That said, it makes little sense for Sun to loose the Marketing benefit of Sun Java (as it gains no money, it's value to Sun is in the feel-good name recognition it's provides).
Sun sells Linux hardware along with Solaris hardware. Sun StarOffice and OpenOffice is funded by Sun to perpetuate good faith and hardware sales.
From a corporate point of view, Java is a loosing deal that can't be safely dropped (without gaining a lot of bad faith) and open-sourcing it could save them money, but would inevitably force a loss of Java market share while the community ramps-up to start supporting extensions to the current Java architecture (especially now, as .NET is totally in the clear). Further, community - open-source Java implimentations already exist (GCJ), but don't have the support of Sun's native implimentation.*
So what for Sun to do? Same as ever. Keep expanding the product, but don't put too much into it (as it's a money seive).
--
* GCJ and even the 'blackdown' ports of Java having no support means little, (as supported free beer is more usefull than unsupported freedom when it comes to reality) - but their failure to gain market share can be taken as an indicator of the possible stagnantation of an OpenSource Java.
Kinetic stupidity has a new brand leader: Allen Zadr.
learn to spell, fucktard.
How exactly does keeping Java closed strengthen positive cash flow.
Sun failed (miserably) to captitalize in the markets that Java should have naturally helped them master. When someone thinks of Java they should naturally think of Sun's Java development tools/application server, Sun's productivity tools, Sun's testing tools, Sun's OS, and Sun's Hardware. Instead we think of IBM Websphere/Eclipse running under Redhat on Dell hardware with unit testing provided by JUnit.
Sun has just become another IP holder like SCO, et al. They've failed to do anything significant with their IP and so have resorted to profit through acquisition and litigation.
Their hardware is crap, much of their software is crap, and somehow we expect them to make Java not crap.
They need to stop being so comfortable as #5 in application suites in the market they started and try to actually compete. Shit or get off the pot.
...really tired out from dragging a big sack with a dollar sign written on it?
of jwz quitting Netscape after the AOL fusion?
I remember being really depressed about his resignation letter (it's somewhere in his website). But then I was 15 - and besides, I didn't quite realize he had gotten rich in the process.
Actually, Scot called Ballmer for a friendly golf match about a year ago. They've been talking since. Including great Bill G visit to Paolo Alto.
Sun only needs to make 3,299 redundant now :)
But I can understand his disgust, Java had the potential (I say potential, it's only become fast enough in recent times) to solve many cross platform compatibility problem. Java isn't dead yet, but it doesn't have the marketplace to itself anymore.
Java is being driven largely by other companies... IBM, BEA, Oracle and Borland...... I don't see that sun makes alot on Java. The real competitor to windows is and always will be linux not java. However IBM has known for a while that Java works quite well crossplatform. For years I've been able to develop on Windows and deploy on Solaris or Linux now. If you want you can run Windows boxes for servers instead. Please no crack pot replies about Applets. The vast majority of work with Java now is server side, and for all intents and purposes it is write once run anywhere as long as you have the same server on all you platforms. This something .Net cannot do, and probably never will since it's not in MS's interest to have .Net portable. I know about Mono, but they are way behind and MS and probably always will be.
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
then what is Joy doing there, Joy already left... http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2003-09/sunf lash.20030909.1.html
Imagine this running Windows.
You can defy gravity... for a short time
The article hints that there may be more to follow.
You mean, like that Jon Schwartz is leaving, to be replaced by John Loiacono?.
[This must have been in the works a few weeks anyway. I have to wonder how the MS-Sun rapprochement talks intertwined with ESR's proposal to make Java truly open source...]
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Nope, it would still be a pile of fetid dingos kindeys...slow ones. The basic problem (forgetting about server side Java) is that Sun just doesn't get interfaces. They never did, they never will. They have a big machine, XWindow mentality. While that is good for some things, Java will never be able to produce apps for Windoze and Macs that are not slow
and bloated. And the apps produced (at on Mac) sometimes have weird, hard to diagnose bugs because neither Sun nor Apple are committed to making Java good enough.
He seems to be a man of his word and put his money where his mouth was -
What a marvelously simplistic view. Mr. Green was supporting an old, futile cause. Sun is not going to take over the desktop or server business. Java is not going to become the end-all be-all of enterprise software. Microsoft, Linux, and UNIX have all already done a fine job of that (or very close to it). It may be as simple as that Mr. Green actually believed all of McNealy's prior rhetoric ("network computer"? please) and had his airy ideology punched with a horse-needle when McNealy finally decided to engage in bit of corporate pragmatism.
which you have to respect, whether you agreed with him or not, and is more than you can say about MSFT.
You're telling me Microsoft doesn't put their money where their mouth is? Regarding Windows and the Xbox, for example, they've repeatedly said that they're here for the long haul and that they're not leaving. And you know what? I believe them. Because they have lots of money to put where their mouth is.
The coolest voice ever.
There is alot in the JVM that does not "belong" to Sun, so it isn't thiers to open source. Most of the imaging and type model comes from Adobe for instance... I am sure that there is other stuff that isn't "thiers" as well.
From anotrher article referenced at the bottom of the page cited here: "Why Sun threw in the towel in Mankind vs. Microsoft"
Let's keep things in perspective. Microsoft's unethical business practices should be put into context. Unlike the pharmaceutical cartel or arms manufacturers, Redmond doesn't overturn democracies or kill thousands of civilians; unlike News Corporation it doesn't debase social discourse or undermine language. Unlike Google, it doesn't pretend to present "all the world's knowledge", when most of the world's knowledge isn't even on the Internet. Microsoft simply makes some fairly mediocre software and charges a lot for it.
This story brought it into focus for me: I was an early adopter of Java, but I just don't care about Java anymore. Sun promised to deliver an applet platform, but then changed directions to server-side programming and a half-hearted effort at a cross-platform toolkit. Frankly, for server-side programming and cross-platform GUIs, there are far better choices than Java.
I'd still like to see something better than JavaScript and Flash for applet-like functionality, but it's clear Sun isn't going to deliver anymore.
The performance is as bad as Windows and Linux.
By the way, it's "cozying", and "Microsoft". I'd say you are foolish for using that tired "$" cliche.
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
... and not any windows-wrappered API calls.
*sigh*
The guys at theserverside.com have shown that the CNet article puts the circumstances differently:
Green will be leaving to join another software venture, according to Sun. Green tendered his resignation several weeks ago but waited until the Microsoft agreement was settled before announcing his departure, a Sun representative said Monday. The changes were announced internally on Friday.
Cnet article
The Server Side discussion
What is all this talk about open-sourcing Java? There are already open-source JVMs and compilers. AFAIK, the specifications are open, so all implementations should be compatible with one another. Does ``open-sourcing Java'', then, mean Sun releasing sources for its implementations? If so, what makes people think Sun should do so? And if they should do it, what's the need for pushing them?
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
McNealy will not know what to do with himself now that he has no evil enemy to focus on. His single-minded approach to MSFT certainly did not help Sun much.
As Linux and IBM eats away Sun's marketshare I would bet that Java is the one profit center Sun will need to nuture and protect. Solaris will not do it for them anymore. At this point Sun cannot afford to open-source Java.
Perhaps he meant that he was going to loose his marketing on you - like loosing dogs on someone in your yard.
No. So I think this 'disgust' has been attributed to him by this nameless third party who would like us to believe that, for whatever reason.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Never expected it here though...
Free Mac Mini Yeah, it's
Remember, Journalism is a myth.
Free Mac Mini Yeah, it's
To ammend then I'll simply add that .NET will be pushed hard in the next months - now that the settlement is made - and now is not the time to stagnate Java by pushing it into OSS limbo for the year it would take for the community to be able to support it.
Kinetic stupidity has a new brand leader: Allen Zadr.
It seems to me, instead of all this back room dancing, Microsoft should just follow their traditional plan if they want to destroy Linux. They seem intent on hiding their true contempt for this stable product and its threat to their core OS tree, so they work deals with companies like Sun and SCO to nick away at Linux and avoid any posture which might indicate Linux as a major contender.
It seems to me, if they were smart, Microsoft would do what they've always done. Come out with a MS-branded version of Unix that at first was open, and then progressively turn it into a bloated, un-compatible mess that only works with their products. They did this with DOS; they should just do the same thing with Linux. The way I figure, Microsoft Linux 2006 will run everything, then by the time Microsoft Linux 2008 comes out, it suddenly won't run Apache or Sendmail, etc.
Sun just hasn't given enough direct support to the open source community, and this recent event-- which seriously implies Microsoft may in some way in future have the ability to manipulate Java-- is the final straw, as anything Microsoft has their fingers in they'll find a way to twist to their ends. It's a good thing .NET doesn't have these problems.
...wait
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Without the crucial developer support provided by Mr. Rich Green, now-former VP at Sun, Java is doomed.
Where will Java be without the numerous helpful free tools and "mindshare" provided by Mr. Green?
I have countless reasons to hate Microsoft but their JVM is not one of them
The Microsoft JVM was fully compatible with Sun's JDK 1.1. Sun merely disliked the MS implementation of java because it included extensions:
Mainly the ability to deal with COM objects easily and the availability of an MS specific GUI api called AFC while Sun was developing JFC/Swing.
Sun claimed such features could harm the portability of java. But extending a programming language is not a crime. For instance OSX include a Java binding to its Coca GUI api and GCJ can be used to compile java to native code. Sun could also decide that theses extensions are harming Java and sue Apple or GNU.
Developers are not dump. They can still use the core language/api if they wish to. But such extensions are often useful.
The real problem here is that a popular programming language is controlled by a company. Theses days, many programmers are afraid that Microsoft could control 3rd party implementation of their .NET platform. But Sun did the same when they sued Microsoft.
Apple Computer signed a similar "cross-licensing" agreement with Microsoft a number of years ago when they settled some lawsuits, and they seem perfectly capable of releasing all the open-source software they want. I think the IP crosslicensing is just a standard thing MS tries to do with companies they find they're in frequent mutual lawsuits with and there's nothing more sinister about it than preventing more incessant IP suits from flying between the two companies.
I don't think "lawyers" have anything to do with Sun not open sourcing Java's class libraries. I think Sun's failure to open source Java will continue to be, as it has been, just because there's no compelling reason from their perspective to do so.
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
And what does your tarot deck say about who's going to win the next American presidential elections?
What about the outcome of the increasingly jittery situation in Iraq as the next election approaches?
It must be amazing, this ability to pull the inscrutable whims of fate from thin air by power of sheer will!
*Sigh*
:(
I don't know how I'm going to fit all TWO BILLION dollars into my grave, but I'll drive somehow.
RIP...
So how come I can download so much free software? Entire businesses run on free software. Hardware is cheap but still, not free.
Hmmm.... Talking about Java is offtopic in a Java thread..... Logical.
..uinless. perhaps.... remember the discussions when IBM sold off it's hard drive division to Hitachi? I remember thinking on it and postulating (on another forum) something along the lines of "I smell a rat, IBM wouldn't sell unless they had some new whizzbang storage method in their skunkworks". Well, a short time later they announced their brick storage and that other technique, dang forget the name now, but I was right. Now, this sun business the last coupla weeks is interesting to me, and is similar. Sun settling with microsoft and cross licensing *could be* Sun slipping it to MS and getting paid for it.. now WHATIF Sun got a new cross platform development tool/language under wraps that blows the doors off of java? That leaves MS with 1.6 billion in egg on their face, and they are free to keep develioping what might be in essence a quickly abandoned platform, along with trying to make .Net a still-viable option. MS would be sweating. They are sweating now in a lot of areas, that would be like giving them an extra wool blannky on a 90 degree day.
I am not saying this is fact, just a-wondering is all. On the surface, the settlement makes no (not much anyway) sense, so there needs to be a reason, and I just don't think Sun and MS turned into butt buddies overnight, too much long standing hard feelings and mistrust to overcome there. NO ONE trusts microsoft (anymore) to make a deal with them that will make them any money, at best, people make deals with microsoft just to mitigate their losses, ie, take the lesser of two evils when confronted with rock/hard place. Sun isn't stupid, I just can't help but think there's a single big clue that hasn't been made public yet.
The only reason I can think of to Sun to cozy up to MS is if they are scared out of their shorts that their hardware is going to go, too, and figure that the only way they can save it is to 100% give in to MS and become an almost full partnership, with them making the hardware and MS making the software that runs on it. A super Apple in other words.
maybe, don't know, the whole deal just seems fishy to me, and not worth the bantered about figures to either side. something else is up..
Two interesting tidbits:2 C00.asp
Sun was one of the few companies that bought a SCO license, and Scott McNealy darkly referred to Open Source as if they were pirates bent on destruction of Intellectual property here: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0%2C3959%2C1209873%
Second, one way to kill Linux as a viable desktop alternative would be to get rid of Star Office or at least make it seem like its support will be limited. Does Sun really care about desktops? Star Office on Linux is being used by many governments around the world as a bludgeon to beat up MS in contract negotiations (why would I pay $500/desktop and up for your software when I can use Star Office on Linux). Even when they don't intend to use Linux, it provides good leverage for getting massive discounts. If Sun can be convinced to get rid of Star Office, that very well could pay M$ back while seriously damaging Linux. I have used both Open Office and Star Office, and neither are MS killers, but Star Office is much more useful and polished.
Bud Tribble got smart and reconnected with Jobs.
As many know what Steve thinks of Sun, "Sun is no Apple."
Hell Java at Apple is more exciting than Java at Sun.
OK so I have to ask... if open sourcing Java is such an outstanding idea, what other highly successful languages are there that are open source? I am not being fecicious, I really don't know much about the which side of the line different languages fall on. What exactly designates a language as "open source"? Having the compiler/interpreter/VM source available? I've read Perl and Python are open source. Are C/C++ open source? Lisp? Basically all the old languages?
Sun's sellout to Microsoft for $1.6 billion will look about the same as that great deal that the Indians got when they sold Manhattan. Microsoft is the only company that recognizes that the software is worth more than a few trinkets because it takes a lot of T-I-M-E to develop software and money cannot buy time. Most of Sun's software initiatives such as Java and Star Office (aka Open Office) will probably wither on the vine, now, for lack of nourishment, just as IBM let OS/2 wither after cutting a similar deal with Microsoft. It's amazing that Microsoft is able to buy off their competitors so cheaply...but then they have gotten a lot of experience doing it over the years.
He was the scapegoat during last quarters reason why Sun was not profitable. Meryll Lynch actually wanted to fire McNealy instead( good idea) but took it out on Bill Joy instead.
Joy was being fed up anyway so he left.
http://saveie6.com/
In terms of installations the vast majority of Java is not server side, but in mobile devices, specifically mobile phones. The Java Games market for mobile phones is huge and is likely to expand exponentially over the next few years.
1. Sun will turn anti-Linux
2. IBM will offer to buy Java from Sun (Sun will refuse)
3. The next software war will involve Microsoft and IBM directly
4. IBM will win.
5. ???
6. Profit!
I frequently want to flag messages Not-Funny. I have been using Redundant as a poor substitute. But it would really be much better if I could flag them as Not-Funny.
well, SUN got some green from MS. one green is leaving. what can you say.. win some, lose some.
This makes little sense... I had a petition:
c os _x_suite/
http://www.petitiononline.com/laafs/
Which was asking for Sun to open source the Lighthouse applications which were a fairly cool set of applications available for the NeXT and could be ported to Mac OS X or to Linux using GNUstep.
Sun then had this reaction:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/09/22/suns_ma
Whether this was a direct reaction to the petition and the email conversation I had with a number of execs at Sun, I'm not sure.
But it shocks me to see that they would be willing to open Java, their flagship product, but yet would be unwilling to open a set of applications which are of little consequence to them.
GJC
Gregory Casamento
## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
shouldnt you all be shouting death to $omputers or something like that..? $omputers have sold out! omg they are the devil..
2 billion dollars over the next 10 years is not a big amount for a company like Sun. Undoubtedly they didnt sell out. I think it was a move that could not be averted. Sun is doing really badly and it simply cannot afford to spend money just to keep up the image of being a Microsoft hater. It has learnt its lesson from Big Blue. IBM forms alliances with whoever it can. Its operative word is profit. Sun was very profitable before the millenium and could afford to keep up the image of being able to take on Microsoft. Now, it just does not make economic sense to do stick to the image. They have simply decided to cut their losses and start focussing on making profits where ever they can find it. Its a time for Sun to lay low and really focus on how to turn the company around. They have done a lot of monkeying around with quick fix profit making schemes all of which have failed.
Moral of the story: when the shit hits the fan, everyone ducks.
You cannot survive by selling commodities at a premium, except by bullying your clients into paying the extra, and it's a self-defeating strategy. Every Microsoft user is at a competitive disadvantage, and eventually will either switch, or go broke. The argument that Microsoft software gives you a competitive edge is unproven and rather goes against all experience.
I wouldn't write off Windows as a commodity, and I certainly wouldn't assume that Windows doesn't add value.
I just spent a couple of weeks helping an acquaintance put together a massive graphics presentation [the final file was just shy of 100MB] for a professional conference, all done on Apple OSX. Guess what? OSX is an utter and complete piece of crap, at least as far as the end user experience is concerned. Apple was supposed to have the original drag-n-drop experience, but I doubt that current revs of OSX have one-tenth the drag-n-drop capability of recent Microsoft OSes. This deficiency applies even to flagship Apple partners and their ports to OSX, especially Adobe & Photoshop/Illustrator. And lest you flame me as a Microsoft fanboy, I learned to program about ten years ago on an old NeXT slab using Objective C, so I've got a heckuva sentimental attachment to the platform.
But back to my point: You people have used COM/DCOM & its drag-n-drop capabilities for so long that you've simply taken it for granted. While it may utterly suck as a programming paradigm [and, in all seriousness, when you get right down to it, what programming paradigm doesn't utterly suck?], it works for almost all end-users almost all of the time.
OSX is a joke. Linux on the desktop is such a sack of shit that it doesn't even qualify as a joke - it's more like a parody of a joke.
And you guys better watch out for .NET. Yeah, it utterly sucks [like all programming paradigms; see above], but it sucks A WHOLE HELLUVA LOT LESS than the competition it's about to blast right out of the water. Oh, and I'm a long time Novell CNI/CNE, so don't tell me how I don't want Ximian/Mono/SUSE to be a success.
PS: If you think Java doesn't utterly suck, try to JAVAC the following code:
Then remind me just why it is that I should be purchasing that brand-spanking new AMD64 platform, not to mention why I should purchase a SPARC-64 platform that costs more than my house? And while you're at it, remind me why I should start my new object-oriented database with 32-bit languages like SQL [max BLOB at 2^32 bytes] and Java [no support for 64 bit array indexing], as opposed to C# [native 64 bit array indexing] and something like theI could be mistaken, but didn't sun's CEO recently make a statement that he had considered making java open source, but decided against it?
is heavy on the vapor and light on the languages. Please read this line out loud: Parrot does not run a single language and will not for the forseeable future.
I think it would be ironic if we see his name on the Microsoft Employee list in the not to distant future.
How is 100MB a "MASSIVE" graphics presentation? When I'm doing an anim built with blender and rendered in povray, it's really really hard to say under 5GB for a 30 second show. 5 minutes really is 50GB (compressed). And you had 100MB? How oh how did you manage to store it all? Hell video caputure for 30 seconds comes out to 2-3 GB.
It was a single wall-sized poster, video boy. That's what Photoshop & Illustrator are designed for - this thing called "2D" [c.f. Adobe PDF and NextSTEP DisplayPostScript/OSX DisplayPDF].
Sun promised to deliver an applet platform, but then changed directions to server-side programming and a half-hearted effort at a cross-platform toolkit.
200% right!!
I'd still like to see something better than JavaScript and Flash for applet-like functionality, but it's clear Sun isn't going to deliver anymore.
Maybe applets were a crappy thing in 1993-96 because of long downloads but it was a very well conceived network technology: sandbox+virtual machine+browser integration. Just about perfect to use now. If java dies, I would love to see an open-source version, if just for the applets.
Reliability of their big systems isn't what it should be. I know I have seen an uncomfortable number of crashes of big, expensive servers that ought not to crash.
Everybody isn't reporting it because it's embarrassing to have spent a million bucks and gotten a "lemon."
Next year's hardware budget will likely go to their competitors around where I am; if that happens pretty widely, that will pinch Sun pretty badly.
Probably the most effective thing to do with Java would be to put effort into refining the quality of the existing systems. Making it better, faster, and more reliable without touching the APIs strikes me as a good approach. Improvements that avoid becoming a "money pit" for either Sun or users of Java would be a good thing...
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
The apparent facts:
1. Sun decided not to open-source Java, at least for the time being.
2. Shortly later, Microsoft paid Sun 2 billion dollars to settle a bunch of old lawsuits that were languishing in court anyway, and the two companies teamed up, agreeing to cross-license patents and share research info, work on mutually beneficial plans and so forth.
3. Sun isn't crazy about Linux because it's better than Solaris. Microsoft isn't crazy about Linux because it's better than Windows. Linux is making strong advances against BOTH operating systems, thereby costing both Sun and Microsoft a LOT of money. And, yes, I know Sun has made some moves towards offering Linux on Sun equipment, but I suspect McNealy prefers Solaris despite this.
4. Microsoft and Sun have both helped SCO in various ways over the past two years, both for their own reasons I imagine.
SPECULATION:
1. If Sun decides that they'll make more money partnering with Microsoft and pushing Solaris, then they'll consider stabbing Linux in the back. As we all know, they could fairly easily stop supporting Java on Linux. They could make it Windows-only if they wanted. Or they could sell it to Microsoft once and for all. Consider what this would do to corporate takeup of Linux.
2. If Sun decides to partner with Microsoft temporarily until the Linux threat is dealt with, and then go rogue and try and push Solaris instead of Windows, that would be just as bad.
3. Remember all that patent cross-licensing and the agreement to share research with Microsoft? I'm guessing this is going to be used against Linux shortly. Massive licensing fees would put a big dent in "free" whether as in beer or freedom.
4. Everyone focusing on Java for the past few years has had the amusing effect of distracting large numbers of programmers from working on alternative programming systems that might have been better than Java. Linux is now in a Java rut. What happens if -- whoops! -- Sun pulls the Java rug right out from under us? That would be worth 2 billion to Microsoft, wouldn't it?
POSSIBLE APPROACHES FOR OPEN-SOURCE PROGRAMMERS:
1. Back to C++. It does everything except applets, anyway (and you can do all of THAT with Shockwave and Flash).
2. Python, Perl and PHP (pick your favorite).
3. Everybody, start working on GCJ and CLASSPATH! Somebody start a beer and coffee fund...
4. Let's all do something different.
Did I miss any?
Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
Yeah? How?
Another holly graial.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
or I should say, money and idealism of any sort, hardly ever mix.. They're like water and oil.... they intersperse and coexist but hardly ever mix.
'A lie if repeated often enough, becomes the truth.' - Goebbels
http://www.royans.net/
I really don't get why you're all so rabid about this.
.tgz of the source code, under the GPL. What exactly do you all plan to do with it?
Say tomorrow morning ftp.sun.com has a big old
Why do so many linux users take it as a personal insult when someone refuses to give them something for free? (Code, music, movies, whatever.)
If you want a good ORM, try Hibernate, it's really good, it's database-independent, works well with J2EE appservers, and has good support. Oh and it's open source (I don't know if BC4J is open source). .NET: there aren't any good ORM's yet, some are coming together but they still have a long way to go (like thona's EntityBroker, which looks as though it's going to be really good but it's just not there yet); MS's own objectSpaces does not look as advanced as Hibernate or Cayenne (another java open source ORM), and it's not even out yet, and the first version will work only with SQL Server (what a surprise). Even EntityBroker is already better than ObjectSpaces.
.NET is that I don't see so many open source projects for that platform. Yes, I know it's relatively new, but even some migration efforts from java to .net have been frustrated because of design differences.
I think this is the kind of software that really makes Java superior to
Of course, JDO is also behind Hibernate, is not as flexible, is cumbersome to use... but the thing with
Go hug some trees.
envision ... envision
SEE, for God's sake, SEE!!
What's wrong with the word SEE???
Or failing that, 'envisage' or 'visualize'.
When "paradigm shifts" stopped shifting, and "thinking outside the box" became unfashionable, "envisioning" took over. Everyone "envisions" everythhig, and it's bloody irritating!