You sir are delusional and should stop taking everything that Richard Stallman says as the absolute truth.
A restriction does not add freedom, that is not the way it works. The GPL is more restrictive than the BSD, thus less free.
You seem to think that in your example 2 instantly when someone takes and makes a closed-source derivative that the BSD version stops existing - this example has always been used and is still stupid. OpenSSH exists still while there are closed-source SSH suites, why aren't we all stuck with the SSHCS SSH?
You cannot magically take away the BSD version of something, so it's still there for anyone to use, even make multiple competing programmes based on the same BSD code. The BSD stuff isn't going to disappear just cause there is someone making money off the code.
Your imaginary freedom of editing code is only one that GPL users believe in, stop trying to tell us that you're right and we're wrong because you said so. You're as bad as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormans for that nonsense, leave our beliefs be.
It's not elitism if you've explained to a person what they do wrong and how to avoid further issues, yet they call you back a month later because they can no longer use Windows cause, "it's all messed up," it's calling it as it is.
If you explain to someone how to properly use Windows Update (as in not just ignoring that little icon on the bottom right) and yet they still do not do it, it shows signs of lacking intellect, or at the least comprehension skills.
If you explain that downloading flash animations and dinky little games is bad, yet they continue to do so, it implies a lack of understanding if not downright apathy to learn from their mistakes.
If you explain that going to pornographic websites drastically increases the odds of problems occuring, yet they ignore these warnings and press on with their porn perusal, they are a fool.
I am not elite and do not consider my views elitist, I view people that are unwilling to even learn simple things as idiots, if they cannot be troubled to try something then they are not worth the water in their veins.
Bullshit, that is not how all the spyware out there gets on a system. It isn't all IE's fault, people downloading shitty flash, screensavers and games are how most spyware get's on a person's system.
On byhalf of all geeks with coworkers or family members: Excellent.
I hate having to spend hours a week cleaning people's dying machines of these damned things, they can completely make a system useless in less than a month with some of the less intelligent users out there.
Debian is an open source project run freely by an elected leader and it's developers, it is copyrighted by Software in the Public Interest, Inc. (which once held GNOME's hand in the same manner).
SPI takes in the money and helps give it's projects as much financial support as possible.
Basically, Debian made a little non-profit years back to handle it's money and that's what SPI does.
So it's an open source project funded by donations funneled through a non-profit organisation they founded. They are no company of any kind, it's SPI that does the money-work.
I hardly think they should be holding more than a couple grand on hand, but it does make sense to have a cache of sorts for when any hardware issues arise.
I think it would be better if they set their developers to specific tasks for the betterment of their distrobution with that money than simply hold on to it and wait for that eventual rainy day though.
3.3 and 3.1 were the best songs as far as the music itself goes, I side with 3.1 my self. Let's see what they've done so far:
3.0 was obviously a kinda techno-trance deal - Puff Daddy
3.1 was a more solid rock song, mid 90s style, almost Rammsteiny - Puffy the Kittenslayer
3.2 was the Bond ballad, not my cup of tea - James Pond
3.3 was more 80s rock, cool though - Puff the Barbarian
3.4 was strange, I'd almost call it folk and medieval combined - Puffy Hood
3.5 was a comedic parody of Monty Python - no real theme for Puff
3.6 was a Johnny Cash styled country - a Clint Eastwoody "Pond-erosa" Puff
3.7 was a 70s, Pink Floydesque rock song - Puffathy
I still hope for a release with an Open C Compiler, just so they can have a Kid Rock styled theme song and a Puff with a handlebar mustache riding a chopper, and maybe a release based on the Marx Brothers, a Puff for each Marx would be nice.
What are the other OpenBSD fans out there hoping for some day?
WHOA! WHOA! WHOA!
Come on! Get Up! WHOA!
Give it up for me!
God, I cannot belive that guy kept his job. When you see stuff like that Ballmer so seems mentally inadiquite for a gas attendant, yet there he is, still running one of the biggest companies around.
I hope their next CEO is a well built woman, at least her screaming and jumping around would be more funny than sad.
Honestly, I find some of his views to be correct, but I am a socialist, so that only makes sense.
I very much dislike corporate America, which has too many overly powerful companies controlling the lives of the people.
The goal of a corporation should not be to make as much profit as possible, but rather to better the surrounding region while making a profit. America is far to centred in the persuit of the biggest/newest/fastest, they're stuck in a pattern that does not help anyone but themselves; hardly a Christian way to do things.
But then I am also a cynical aethist besides being a socialist, so of course I am not a popular person when talking politics.
I could care less about people wanting to make money off fonts; if you are putting it out there for people to use, why restrict them at all, just put them out there for people to use.
If you want people to pay for it then fine, sell it, it won't confront me at all if you do. I was only talking about jackasses that are putting terms to their fonts' usages.
Regarding the mail relaying and stopping spam part, I don't know of any other system that has OpenBSD's spamd, which kicks some serious spammer ass.
Setting up spamd with dspam or you other filter of choice is handy cause what gets through spamd usually won't get through the other.
While I cannot say it for NetBSD or FreeBSD, Linux isn't documented so much as HOWTOed. I don't find a good man page very often for something done with Linux.
Thank you, had I the mod points I would put one on you.
I hate it when people are so completely blind-stupid about open source; they just listen to what they're told and don't bother to actually think, it's as bad as the people that blindly think a computer is Windows.
Matt, as long as you're around I figure I'll ask you about your license policy; recently there was a spat between Theo de Raadt of OpenBSD and Scott Long of FreeBSD regarding openness and freedom versus functionality.
How do you stand when it comes to adding binary stuff into your system when you cannot get at the code?
Theo was very, almost violently, adamant that adding anything there isn't code that the system's developers can see it isn't worth having in the system. While Scott felt that it was better to do some kowtowing to companies to get usablity, in the hopes that companies will continue to support the code and eventually see the light.
I lean more to Theo's line of thought, if the company goes away, suddenly there is no support at all.
The whole thing started because OpenBSD wanted to support some RAID hardware using a raidctl they are planning and the binary used by Linux and FreeBSD (and I would assume DragonFlyBSD as well, though I will admit I am too lazy to actually check) isn't good enough for what they want, which includes proper RAID management from within the operating system.
Anyways, how do you stand on the issue, or do you prefer to just hack the core of the system and not fight so much with the other parts?
OpenBSD is the suggested often for a router because it is a tight little system with a fair number of security enhancements and it's pf packet filter is native to OpenBSD, thus more tightly integrated and tuned for Open.
It's partly that you don't want a router cracked and partly cause you want the best packet handler, pf is that.
Plus you can set it up as your mail relay and stop spam, and yadda, yadda, yadda... It's a generally nice small system and the ports with it almost all run without fuss.
I do know what Linus needs, or at least what he says he needs, as he's mentioned his wish list a couple times online.
My weak pragmatism was the basis for the entire post in the first place, I never gave some grand proposal nor listed pros and cons of using different systems, I simply said he should try OpenCVS and that it would not be ready if he wanted it now.
There was no massive point in how he could make it something special in my originating post, any additional opinion was added based on posts made in response. My added opinions were added as counter-arguments, not parts of the base post and thus were not the basis for my posting.
You really do seem riled up about this, I just sorta wonder why.
I said nothing about subversion good nor bad, that was because I think highly of the people working on OpenCVS's programming skills, I trust them to make something secure and functional.
I was simply pointing to something I would trust, feel free to read into my lack of mentioning SVK too.
Well, it's not like CVS is that far from what he wants, you were using vi as an example and that's completely off base.
If you'd said Arch or something like that we'd have three less posts on this thread.
I specifically said OpenCVS because I trust what those guys put out to be secure and I'd rather Linus use something safe than something done by just any random group.
All the work the OpenBSD guys go through to tighen the system and tools I just would rather that other systems take the tools they work on more seriously I guess.
No, but he should be able to write it in vi, that's what vi is for. CVS is for version management, so he should be able to manage it in CVS. I think you were thinking of emacs.
I don't get your "you're hurting America." bullcrap, I am pointing out that he has a chance to get something made that works the way he wants it to, cause he's been really whiney and wants something that works a special way.
Hell, if he wanted he could try supporting one of the BitKeeper clones too, I was proposing another option.
Honestly I think Linus should have not say in the matter, that the developers should have a vote for what it is put on.
I know what you were trying to say, but you said it poorly enough that I had to reread your post to understand you.
I was more saying that they could take OpenCVS and add what is wanted to it, at first it will only be a basic CVS system, thus it won't have all that added good stuff Linus pines for.
GnuCVS is buggy and unmaintainable, thus OpenCVS was born; but it isn't being made to just be the same old CVS, they want to update it and tighten it down for security purposes. If people got into it and started contributing they could add some of the stuff people want.
Theoretically you could get OpenCVS to contain CVS, RCS and a few other little bits; just as OpenSSH isn't just a daemon and client but a suite.
Anyways, at this time the daemon isn't ready yet, only the client. So as I said, unless someone wanted it done soon and had the skill or money to back that it would be a while before it is ready even if Linus did want it.
Meh, I'd say he should try going with OpenCVS, though it won't be ready for major use for months at least unless some more developers get interested and join in the work load.
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Man, what the fuck are you on?
A restriction does not add freedom, that is not the way it works. The GPL is more restrictive than the BSD, thus less free.
You seem to think that in your example 2 instantly when someone takes and makes a closed-source derivative that the BSD version stops existing - this example has always been used and is still stupid. OpenSSH exists still while there are closed-source SSH suites, why aren't we all stuck with the SSHCS SSH?
You cannot magically take away the BSD version of something, so it's still there for anyone to use, even make multiple competing programmes based on the same BSD code. The BSD stuff isn't going to disappear just cause there is someone making money off the code.
Your imaginary freedom of editing code is only one that GPL users believe in, stop trying to tell us that you're right and we're wrong because you said so. You're as bad as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormans for that nonsense, leave our beliefs be.
If you explain to someone how to properly use Windows Update (as in not just ignoring that little icon on the bottom right) and yet they still do not do it, it shows signs of lacking intellect, or at the least comprehension skills.
If you explain that downloading flash animations and dinky little games is bad, yet they continue to do so, it implies a lack of understanding if not downright apathy to learn from their mistakes.
If you explain that going to pornographic websites drastically increases the odds of problems occuring, yet they ignore these warnings and press on with their porn perusal, they are a fool.
I am not elite and do not consider my views elitist, I view people that are unwilling to even learn simple things as idiots, if they cannot be troubled to try something then they are not worth the water in their veins.
Man, after reading over that I realise I come off to cockwady, I was agreeing that that is bullshit about the IE stuff but worded it way wrong. Meh.
Bullshit, that is not how all the spyware out there gets on a system. It isn't all IE's fault, people downloading shitty flash, screensavers and games are how most spyware get's on a person's system.
I hate having to spend hours a week cleaning people's dying machines of these damned things, they can completely make a system useless in less than a month with some of the less intelligent users out there.
SPI takes in the money and helps give it's projects as much financial support as possible.
Basically, Debian made a little non-profit years back to handle it's money and that's what SPI does.
So it's an open source project funded by donations funneled through a non-profit organisation they founded. They are no company of any kind, it's SPI that does the money-work.
I think it would be better if they set their developers to specific tasks for the betterment of their distrobution with that money than simply hold on to it and wait for that eventual rainy day though.
3.0 was obviously a kinda techno-trance deal - Puff Daddy
3.1 was a more solid rock song, mid 90s style, almost Rammsteiny - Puffy the Kittenslayer
3.2 was the Bond ballad, not my cup of tea - James Pond
3.3 was more 80s rock, cool though - Puff the Barbarian
3.4 was strange, I'd almost call it folk and medieval combined - Puffy Hood
3.5 was a comedic parody of Monty Python - no real theme for Puff
3.6 was a Johnny Cash styled country - a Clint Eastwoody "Pond-erosa" Puff
3.7 was a 70s, Pink Floydesque rock song - Puffathy
I still hope for a release with an Open C Compiler, just so they can have a Kid Rock styled theme song and a Puff with a handlebar mustache riding a chopper, and maybe a release based on the Marx Brothers, a Puff for each Marx would be nice.
What are the other OpenBSD fans out there hoping for some day?
Come on! Get Up!
WHOA!
Give it up for me!
God, I cannot belive that guy kept his job. When you see stuff like that Ballmer so seems mentally inadiquite for a gas attendant, yet there he is, still running one of the biggest companies around.
I hope their next CEO is a well built woman, at least her screaming and jumping around would be more funny than sad.
I very much dislike corporate America, which has too many overly powerful companies controlling the lives of the people.
The goal of a corporation should not be to make as much profit as possible, but rather to better the surrounding region while making a profit. America is far to centred in the persuit of the biggest/newest/fastest, they're stuck in a pattern that does not help anyone but themselves; hardly a Christian way to do things.
But then I am also a cynical aethist besides being a socialist, so of course I am not a popular person when talking politics.
If you want people to pay for it then fine, sell it, it won't confront me at all if you do. I was only talking about jackasses that are putting terms to their fonts' usages.
I mean, come on, it's a damned font.
Don't you mean Mach-like? Hurd doesn't work.
Uh, Japan and Canada consistantly both have a higher standard of living than the United States of America: Read all about it.
Setting up spamd with dspam or you other filter of choice is handy cause what gets through spamd usually won't get through the other.
While I cannot say it for NetBSD or FreeBSD, Linux isn't documented so much as HOWTOed. I don't find a good man page very often for something done with Linux.
I hate it when people are so completely blind-stupid about open source; they just listen to what they're told and don't bother to actually think, it's as bad as the people that blindly think a computer is Windows.
How do you stand when it comes to adding binary stuff into your system when you cannot get at the code?
Theo was very, almost violently, adamant that adding anything there isn't code that the system's developers can see it isn't worth having in the system. While Scott felt that it was better to do some kowtowing to companies to get usablity, in the hopes that companies will continue to support the code and eventually see the light.
I lean more to Theo's line of thought, if the company goes away, suddenly there is no support at all.
The whole thing started because OpenBSD wanted to support some RAID hardware using a raidctl they are planning and the binary used by Linux and FreeBSD (and I would assume DragonFlyBSD as well, though I will admit I am too lazy to actually check) isn't good enough for what they want, which includes proper RAID management from within the operating system.
Anyways, how do you stand on the issue, or do you prefer to just hack the core of the system and not fight so much with the other parts?
It's partly that you don't want a router cracked and partly cause you want the best packet handler, pf is that.
Plus you can set it up as your mail relay and stop spam, and yadda, yadda, yadda... It's a generally nice small system and the ports with it almost all run without fuss.
My weak pragmatism was the basis for the entire post in the first place, I never gave some grand proposal nor listed pros and cons of using different systems, I simply said he should try OpenCVS and that it would not be ready if he wanted it now.
There was no massive point in how he could make it something special in my originating post, any additional opinion was added based on posts made in response. My added opinions were added as counter-arguments, not parts of the base post and thus were not the basis for my posting.
You really do seem riled up about this, I just sorta wonder why.
I was simply pointing to something I would trust, feel free to read into my lack of mentioning SVK too.
If you'd said Arch or something like that we'd have three less posts on this thread.
I specifically said OpenCVS because I trust what those guys put out to be secure and I'd rather Linus use something safe than something done by just any random group.
All the work the OpenBSD guys go through to tighen the system and tools I just would rather that other systems take the tools they work on more seriously I guess.
I don't get your "you're hurting America." bullcrap, I am pointing out that he has a chance to get something made that works the way he wants it to, cause he's been really whiney and wants something that works a special way.
Hell, if he wanted he could try supporting one of the BitKeeper clones too, I was proposing another option.
Honestly I think Linus should have not say in the matter, that the developers should have a vote for what it is put on.
I was more saying that they could take OpenCVS and add what is wanted to it, at first it will only be a basic CVS system, thus it won't have all that added good stuff Linus pines for.
GnuCVS is buggy and unmaintainable, thus OpenCVS was born; but it isn't being made to just be the same old CVS, they want to update it and tighten it down for security purposes. If people got into it and started contributing they could add some of the stuff people want.
Theoretically you could get OpenCVS to contain CVS, RCS and a few other little bits; just as OpenSSH isn't just a daemon and client but a suite.
Anyways, at this time the daemon isn't ready yet, only the client. So as I said, unless someone wanted it done soon and had the skill or money to back that it would be a while before it is ready even if Linus did want it.
Meh, I'd say he should try going with OpenCVS, though it won't be ready for major use for months at least unless some more developers get interested and join in the work load.