You know, as network speeds and storage capacities have been improving so dramatically, the importance of compression has decreased in a similar fashion. MPEG-4 became pervasive because it allowed people to share movies illegally. Nowadays, you can download an ISO of a DVD and it's no big deal.
Now, licensing on the other hand becomes more important as the number of people in the network increases and as the speed with which people can access it increases because there's more people who might have had access but are being prevented by encumbered standards. Ogg never would have been developed if not for the legal encumbrance on mp3 compression, but now it's a free, proven and superior standard that has seen use in numerous commercial games.
The technical inferiorities of Theora just mean your perfectly good looking video streams are a little bigger than MP4 streams. With bandwidth and storage as cheap as it is, that's cheaper to deal with than licensing for distribution.
Apart from it not supporting DRM, ogg has only advantages - it's equal or superior to most other codecs (the widely used mp3 and wma are inferior) and it's open-source w/o patents restrictions...
Seriously, does anyone have an explanation for that?
Ogg isn't a codec. It's a container format. Vorbis is the audio codec in question, and Theora is the video codec in question.
Theora was created using proprietary code and patented techniques developed by On2 and used in their VP3 codec, adapted to fit inside an Ogg container. There are tools to let you convert existing VP3 streams into Ogg streams.
The Xiph.org foundation negotiated free access for all to those patented technology before adapting and adopting it. From the Theora FAQ:
Yes, some portions of the VP3 codec are covered by patents. However, the Xiph.org Foundation has negotiated an irrevocable free license to the VP3 codec for any purpose imaginable on behalf of the public. It is legal to use VP3 in any way you see fit (unless, of course, you're doing something illegal with it in your particular jurisdiction). You are free to download VP3, use it free of charge, implement it in a for-sale product, implement it in a free product, make changes to the source and distribute those changes, or print the source code out and wallpaper your spare room with it.
The paper from Nokia seems to revolve around the fact that it doesn't support DRM from what I can see.
He also raises good points... computers are hardly more than advertising pipelines, and unless you're already savvy, it's hard to suppress an rid the experience of the deluge of ads. Also, how many sites are in SiSwati or isiZulu these days?
That is bullshit. The OLPC project includes Squeak, a Smalltalk programming language, and has simple sensor and control devices available that can be used to have Squeak programs interact with the real world. A child who can program in Squeak grows into an adult who can solve problems, think logically, develop and use technology and compete globally. I've been guiding my 7 year old in it, and she's already made her first object oriented game, so clearly, it's suitable for the task.
You obviously don't know anything at all about the Chinese language, Chinese writing, or Asian languages. You're just repeating stuff from Wikipedia that you don't understand. Why are you even posting? To get your post count up?
I'm posting because I've been working in the field of multilingualization for the pharmaceutical and medical industries for years now, I've worked on developing multilingual, multicurrency sites for HP Asia before to control ordering and stock control of promotional merchandise across 8 different countries, I'm working on launching a pervasively multilingual site as we speak, and I find the lack of layout support really annoying. That's why.
No, I'm not Chinese, but every human being in Europe and Asia has access to a whole host of different types of medicine because of multilingualization work that I have personally done, despite being hampered by my unilingualism. I've been in the trenches for years. Can you say the same?
A browser that cannot accurately reproduce a page of text without getting it sideways is broken. That's Firefox, at this point. Unfortunately.
When designing multilinugalizable websites, you need to be able to control the text flow. There have been WC3 standards for controlling layout flow since CSS2, but IE5+ is the only line of browsers that has proper support.
You need right-left for most western languages, left-right for languages like Hebrew and Arabic. In the Asian cultures, you want the glyphs to flow from the top left corner down the left side of the page to the bottom, then start a new line to the right of the first line.
But... modern Standard Mandarin is written left-to-right. Why is top-to-bottom support so important, again?
Perhaps because there are 700 million Chinese people who can't read Standard Mandarin? From Wikipedia:
In December 2004, the first survey of language use in the People's Republic of China revealed that only 53% of its population, about 700 million people, could communicate in Standard Mandarin. (China Daily) A survey by South China Morning Post released in September 2006 gave the same result.[citation needed] This 53% is defined as a passing grade above 3-B (ie. error rate lower than 40%) of Evaluation Exam. Another survey in 2003 by the China National Language And Character Working Committee () shows, if mastery of Standard Mandarin is defined as Grade 1-A (ie. error rate lower than 3%), the percentages as follows are: Beijing 90%, Shanghai 3%, Tianjin 25%, Guangzhou 0.5%, Dalian 10%, Xi'an 12%, Chengdu 1%, Nanjing 2%.
Then, of course, there are all those other Asian cultures that might like to be able to browse the web too. In case half of China wasn't good enough reason.
Maybe if they implemented support for top-down left-right layouts instead of trying to make deals with search engines, they might get somewhere.
As it stands, the Mozilla family of browsers does not support it, so why would anyone in China want to use it? Beyond that, why would you want to introduce your brand to that market before implementing that support? I can see it now:
"Firefox? Hmm, I saw that a year ago... that's that one that shows all the pages sideways, right? No thanks."
Greater than 100% turnout doesn't necessarily imply that the general voting age population is the denominator - registered voters can also be the denominator.
That's true. It doesn't necessarily imply anything. You could even go so far as to say that this proves, oh, NOTHING.
There sure are a lot of knee jerk conclusions though. You could even go so far as to say that this was propaganda.
Gorbachev does not define his success in his retirement by what people are doing, but rather by the ideals to which people hold.
Sometimes it is necessary for a people in mortal danger to assemble into totalitarian structures to deal with the threat. It is for this reason that most countries have war/emergency measure acts by which absolute power can be transferred in the short term to the leader, and it is for this reason that dictators get elected in areas where the population are too polarized to have peace and safety in the streets.
Long term freedom comes not from preventing this, but rather from recognizing that this state of existence will again become necessary in the future and structuring society to allow it to flow in and out of existence so it cannot become and end in and of itself as long term vision is lost. When you look at it this way, you can see how the west created the conditions by which Stalin held his power just as Stalin created the conditions by which the military-industrial complex kept their power in the west.
What made Gorbachev significant is that it is considered a corruption of the current national identity to exist indefinitely in such a state, where before it was not. Clearly, Gorbachev feels that Putin values this identity enough that he would engage in corruption to get things done rather than attempting to replace it with a new national identity that didn't require as much convoluted bullshit to maintain appearances.
If the political system and the people in it were more sophisticated, such things would not be necessary, but they're not.
Good luck with that, you see where complaining and trying to 'vote different' got us down here south of your borders.. just more of the same.
Government is an institution larger then any one person, powered by the wealthy. It's really hard for the common man to make a difference.
We had our version of the Republicans here when I was a kid... called them the Progressive Conservatives.
We killed that party so dead that the name hasn't been used in over a decade, and the Right-Wing political scene split into pieces that only recently have come together into a crippled Frankenstein monster that needs the continuous support of at least one other party at all times to avoid losing power in a vote of non confidence. The straw that broke the camels back was, funny enough, the North American Free Trade Agreement.
Did you notice that we weren't in the Iraq war? It's because your words are false that that is true.
The wedge in the door in Canada is when they turn English and French Canada against each other. The population of Quebec are the most left-wing in the country, but their voice gets silenced sometimes because local power-mongers with unseen support from the economically powerful right wing groups start stirring up the idea that they can leave the rest of the country to go hang and create a nice little socialist paradise inside the boarders of Quebec.
When Canadians unite together, right-wing power disappears. It happens cyclically up here as we become complacent after a bit, then notice the rats are back and start over.
Q: Why does greater than 100% turnout automatically mean election fraud, and not an error in the distribution of population between regions of the country?
A: Because that doesn't support my preconceptions. Fuck off, Troll!
Wow, you run a business that can't afford a $5K annual expense. Then no one here is surprised that you haven't chosen expensive tools.
There is a difference between running a business that can't afford a $5k annual expense and delivering a solution to someone without an existing IT infrastructure and burdening them with a $5k expense that is shrinking the budget that could have paid for more custom work but is now all used up, needlessly.
Incidentally, there is also a big difference between $5000 for a single server license and SQL Server for Workgroups and what you'd need to run an internet based business that has seen some growth. What does SQL Server Standard run, $30k per server, limited to 4 cores max? I don't care who your client is, that's a large chunk of money that they could have spent getting more custom work done.
If they've already saddled themselves with such a burden, I'll take their money and help them out, but honestly... you tell someone you can deliver them a solution in 30 days, you can use MS or LAPP, either way you charge them x, but if they go with MS, they need to purchase a bunch of expensive software as well, what are they going to say? "Yes, I'd like to shrink my gross annual profit!" Not a chance.
What I am seeing a lot of lately is people who need to move off Classic ASP or ColdFusion and SQL Server or Access and want to get on to LAMP. People who once would have spent tens of thousands of dollars can have their needs met with a Joomla driven site that takes a couple of days to put together and an inexpensive server or hosting package. Asking them to spend a fortune on MS software if they don't already own it is the kind of thing that loses you business.
Personally, I'm building my own business around Linux, Apache2, PHP5 and PostgreSQL.
Actually, now that you mention it, I think it may have been these exact two names that got me passionate about programming in the first place. The imagery of peeking into some abstraction, to see what is there, and then poking it with your finger to change it.
My friends got an Atari. I got a VIC-20. They got Space Invaders and joysticks. I got Whack-A-Mole and a tape deck to save my programs on.
This was what got me passionate about programming. Everything else came later.:P
They're into the satellite networks, and they doctor, blur or remove photos by request from multiple governments and militaries. So, assuming they keep some of their cards close to their chest, they have the opportunity to know more about where to look for interesting military targets than any single government does, because they're the ones that are being sent the censor lists.
Your enemy is not the United States, it's our government. We are sick of this shit too, but unfortunately, we have a lot of insane people living here who vote, and a system that does not force the legislature to even read the bills they are enacting into law.
The only way you can fully follow your own agenda is to work by yourself or be dictating leader. Note that the license you use is not an issue. Anyone who has looked at the rules for contributing to an open source project can see that they'll be following somebody else's agenda.
What if your agenda presupposes the flourishing existence of infrastructure that is already someone else's agenda, that person is more competent at creating that infrastructure than you are, and they need help?
Makes a very good argument for the spontaneous creation of a grassroots mesh network by the citizenry. I suppose that's why the US Gov are criminalizing open Wi-Fi. Well, they're not criminalizing it, but all they have to do is send someone out with some illegal images to set you up, don't they? In a pinch, they can always re-define obscene.
I'm a web developer. I run a business. When I talk to a new client, they usually have a budget. They don't have a web server, so they're going to need to acquire one before I can help them.
So, how much does it cost to pick up a Server license? $500 for an OEM Web Edition and way, way, way the fuck up from there?
On top of that, they're going to need a database of course.
So, how much is SQL Server? Bottom end, you're looking at Workgroup Edition for $4000.
Now, on top of this, I'm going to need to pay for development tools, and if they want to change anything six months later, so are they.
So how much of that budget did we use up before we wrote our first line of code? At least 5 grand of it.
How much does it cost to set up LAMP? A couple of hours.
Of course, if you were to actually achieve any sort of success, you'd need more servers, more database licenses, etc, so growth could actually end up tanking your business if you haven't priced high enough to absorb that. Good luck competing with that around your neck.
Recommending prospective clients who aren't already stuck with MS products on the server to pick them up is an act of stupidity that shrinks your budget by handing a significant portion of it directly to MS, plain and simple.
That's the price of the help you're getting. You probably aren't capable of making do without that help, or you wouldn't have given up all that money. But that's not a testament to how great MS are, it's a testament to how ineffectual you are.
What 'professionals' were you talking about? IT ones, presumably. One of my clients has 100k+ employees; they are not allowed to install non-approved software on their PCs, (which I understand). The only approved browser is IE6, (which I find harder to understand - probably becuse all of their crap in-house apps. are written for IE6 only).
that sounds like a good idea until u hear/read what the average american thinks nowadays... then u realize that they'll put an even worst government and president there... or even start a sort of christian-caliphate, ran by some nutcase preacher.
You know the alternative is to stop them with guns on the ground like our grandfathers did, right?
Slashdot Mirror
You know, as network speeds and storage capacities have been improving so dramatically, the importance of compression has decreased in a similar fashion. MPEG-4 became pervasive because it allowed people to share movies illegally. Nowadays, you can download an ISO of a DVD and it's no big deal.
Now, licensing on the other hand becomes more important as the number of people in the network increases and as the speed with which people can access it increases because there's more people who might have had access but are being prevented by encumbered standards. Ogg never would have been developed if not for the legal encumbrance on mp3 compression, but now it's a free, proven and superior standard that has seen use in numerous commercial games.
The technical inferiorities of Theora just mean your perfectly good looking video streams are a little bigger than MP4 streams. With bandwidth and storage as cheap as it is, that's cheaper to deal with than licensing for distribution.
Apart from it not supporting DRM, ogg has only advantages - it's equal or superior to most other codecs (the widely used mp3 and wma are inferior) and it's open-source w/o patents restrictions...
Seriously, does anyone have an explanation for that?
Ogg isn't a codec. It's a container format. Vorbis is the audio codec in question, and Theora is the video codec in question.
Theora was created using proprietary code and patented techniques developed by On2 and used in their VP3 codec, adapted to fit inside an Ogg container. There are tools to let you convert existing VP3 streams into Ogg streams.
The Xiph.org foundation negotiated free access for all to those patented technology before adapting and adopting it. From the Theora FAQ:
Yes, some portions of the VP3 codec are covered by patents. However, the Xiph.org Foundation has negotiated an irrevocable free license to the VP3 codec for any purpose imaginable on behalf of the public. It is legal to use VP3 in any way you see fit (unless, of course, you're doing something illegal with it in your particular jurisdiction). You are free to download VP3, use it free of charge, implement it in a for-sale product, implement it in a free product, make changes to the source and distribute those changes, or print the source code out and wallpaper your spare room with it.
The paper from Nokia seems to revolve around the fact that it doesn't support DRM from what I can see.
He also raises good points... computers are hardly more than advertising pipelines, and unless you're already savvy, it's hard to suppress an rid the experience of the deluge of ads. Also, how many sites are in SiSwati or isiZulu these days?
That is bullshit. The OLPC project includes Squeak, a Smalltalk programming language, and has simple sensor and control devices available that can be used to have Squeak programs interact with the real world. A child who can program in Squeak grows into an adult who can solve problems, think logically, develop and use technology and compete globally. I've been guiding my 7 year old in it, and she's already made her first object oriented game, so clearly, it's suitable for the task.
You obviously don't know anything at all about the Chinese language, Chinese writing, or Asian languages. You're just repeating stuff from Wikipedia that you don't understand. Why are you even posting? To get your post count up?
I'm posting because I've been working in the field of multilingualization for the pharmaceutical and medical industries for years now, I've worked on developing multilingual, multicurrency sites for HP Asia before to control ordering and stock control of promotional merchandise across 8 different countries, I'm working on launching a pervasively multilingual site as we speak, and I find the lack of layout support really annoying. That's why.
No, I'm not Chinese, but every human being in Europe and Asia has access to a whole host of different types of medicine because of multilingualization work that I have personally done, despite being hampered by my unilingualism. I've been in the trenches for years. Can you say the same?
A browser that cannot accurately reproduce a page of text without getting it sideways is broken. That's Firefox, at this point. Unfortunately.
Sorry, my bad. I need another beer, I guess.
When designing multilinugalizable websites, you need to be able to control the text flow. There have been WC3 standards for controlling layout flow since CSS2, but IE5+ is the only line of browsers that has proper support. You need right-left for most western languages, left-right for languages like Hebrew and Arabic. In the Asian cultures, you want the glyphs to flow from the top left corner down the left side of the page to the bottom, then start a new line to the right of the first line.
But... modern Standard Mandarin is written left-to-right. Why is top-to-bottom support so important, again?
Perhaps because there are 700 million Chinese people who can't read Standard Mandarin? From Wikipedia:
In December 2004, the first survey of language use in the People's Republic of China revealed that only 53% of its population, about 700 million people, could communicate in Standard Mandarin. (China Daily) A survey by South China Morning Post released in September 2006 gave the same result.[citation needed] This 53% is defined as a passing grade above 3-B (ie. error rate lower than 40%) of Evaluation Exam. Another survey in 2003 by the China National Language And Character Working Committee () shows, if mastery of Standard Mandarin is defined as Grade 1-A (ie. error rate lower than 3%), the percentages as follows are: Beijing 90%, Shanghai 3%, Tianjin 25%, Guangzhou 0.5%, Dalian 10%, Xi'an 12%, Chengdu 1%, Nanjing 2%.
Then, of course, there are all those other Asian cultures that might like to be able to browse the web too. In case half of China wasn't good enough reason.
Maybe if they implemented support for top-down left-right layouts instead of trying to make deals with search engines, they might get somewhere.
As it stands, the Mozilla family of browsers does not support it, so why would anyone in China want to use it? Beyond that, why would you want to introduce your brand to that market before implementing that support? I can see it now:
"Firefox? Hmm, I saw that a year ago... that's that one that shows all the pages sideways, right? No thanks."
Real smart move.
Greater than 100% turnout doesn't necessarily imply that the general voting age population is the denominator - registered voters can also be the denominator.
That's true. It doesn't necessarily imply anything. You could even go so far as to say that this proves, oh, NOTHING.
There sure are a lot of knee jerk conclusions though. You could even go so far as to say that this was propaganda.
Gorbachev does not define his success in his retirement by what people are doing, but rather by the ideals to which people hold.
Sometimes it is necessary for a people in mortal danger to assemble into totalitarian structures to deal with the threat. It is for this reason that most countries have war/emergency measure acts by which absolute power can be transferred in the short term to the leader, and it is for this reason that dictators get elected in areas where the population are too polarized to have peace and safety in the streets.
Long term freedom comes not from preventing this, but rather from recognizing that this state of existence will again become necessary in the future and structuring society to allow it to flow in and out of existence so it cannot become and end in and of itself as long term vision is lost. When you look at it this way, you can see how the west created the conditions by which Stalin held his power just as Stalin created the conditions by which the military-industrial complex kept their power in the west.
What made Gorbachev significant is that it is considered a corruption of the current national identity to exist indefinitely in such a state, where before it was not. Clearly, Gorbachev feels that Putin values this identity enough that he would engage in corruption to get things done rather than attempting to replace it with a new national identity that didn't require as much convoluted bullshit to maintain appearances.
If the political system and the people in it were more sophisticated, such things would not be necessary, but they're not.
Good luck with that, you see where complaining and trying to 'vote different' got us down here south of your borders.. just more of the same. Government is an institution larger then any one person, powered by the wealthy. It's really hard for the common man to make a difference.
We had our version of the Republicans here when I was a kid... called them the Progressive Conservatives.
We killed that party so dead that the name hasn't been used in over a decade, and the Right-Wing political scene split into pieces that only recently have come together into a crippled Frankenstein monster that needs the continuous support of at least one other party at all times to avoid losing power in a vote of non confidence. The straw that broke the camels back was, funny enough, the North American Free Trade Agreement.
Did you notice that we weren't in the Iraq war? It's because your words are false that that is true.
The wedge in the door in Canada is when they turn English and French Canada against each other. The population of Quebec are the most left-wing in the country, but their voice gets silenced sometimes because local power-mongers with unseen support from the economically powerful right wing groups start stirring up the idea that they can leave the rest of the country to go hang and create a nice little socialist paradise inside the boarders of Quebec.
When Canadians unite together, right-wing power disappears. It happens cyclically up here as we become complacent after a bit, then notice the rats are back and start over.
Well, I didn't make any death threats, just civil ones, but I think he got the message.
It's so hard to talk on the phone with your teeth clenched like that.
Q: Why does greater than 100% turnout automatically mean election fraud, and not an error in the distribution of population between regions of the country?
A: Because that doesn't support my preconceptions. Fuck off, Troll!
Your 64 may have had a better sound system, but that never made up for the slowness of the Commodore 1541 compared to an Apple Disk II.
Yep, you could play Carmen San Diego and Oregon Trail pretty much at the drop of a hat.
Wow, you run a business that can't afford a $5K annual expense. Then no one here is surprised that you haven't chosen expensive tools.
There is a difference between running a business that can't afford a $5k annual expense and delivering a solution to someone without an existing IT infrastructure and burdening them with a $5k expense that is shrinking the budget that could have paid for more custom work but is now all used up, needlessly.
Incidentally, there is also a big difference between $5000 for a single server license and SQL Server for Workgroups and what you'd need to run an internet based business that has seen some growth. What does SQL Server Standard run, $30k per server, limited to 4 cores max? I don't care who your client is, that's a large chunk of money that they could have spent getting more custom work done.
If they've already saddled themselves with such a burden, I'll take their money and help them out, but honestly... you tell someone you can deliver them a solution in 30 days, you can use MS or LAPP, either way you charge them x, but if they go with MS, they need to purchase a bunch of expensive software as well, what are they going to say? "Yes, I'd like to shrink my gross annual profit!" Not a chance.
What I am seeing a lot of lately is people who need to move off Classic ASP or ColdFusion and SQL Server or Access and want to get on to LAMP. People who once would have spent tens of thousands of dollars can have their needs met with a Joomla driven site that takes a couple of days to put together and an inexpensive server or hosting package. Asking them to spend a fortune on MS software if they don't already own it is the kind of thing that loses you business.
Personally, I'm building my own business around Linux, Apache2, PHP5 and PostgreSQL.
Actually, now that you mention it, I think it may have been these exact two names that got me passionate about programming in the first place. The imagery of peeking into some abstraction, to see what is there, and then poking it with your finger to change it.
:P
My friends got an Atari. I got a VIC-20. They got Space Invaders and joysticks. I got Whack-A-Mole and a tape deck to save my programs on.
This was what got me passionate about programming. Everything else came later.
You PEEKed into a memory register, or chips and I/O hardware mapped to memory registers, to read them. You POKEd them to change them.
Am I the only one that thinks PEEKing and POKEing are kind of dirty abstraction labels for a programming language written for kids?
I used to think that was funny as hell when I was one myself...
They're into the satellite networks, and they doctor, blur or remove photos by request from multiple governments and militaries. So, assuming they keep some of their cards close to their chest, they have the opportunity to know more about where to look for interesting military targets than any single government does, because they're the ones that are being sent the censor lists.
Your enemy is not the United States, it's our government. We are sick of this shit too, but unfortunately, we have a lot of insane people living here who vote, and a system that does not force the legislature to even read the bills they are enacting into law.
Godwin's Law.
The only way you can fully follow your own agenda is to work by yourself or be dictating leader. Note that the license you use is not an issue. Anyone who has looked at the rules for contributing to an open source project can see that they'll be following somebody else's agenda.
What if your agenda presupposes the flourishing existence of infrastructure that is already someone else's agenda, that person is more competent at creating that infrastructure than you are, and they need help?
Makes a very good argument for the spontaneous creation of a grassroots mesh network by the citizenry. I suppose that's why the US Gov are criminalizing open Wi-Fi. Well, they're not criminalizing it, but all they have to do is send someone out with some illegal images to set you up, don't they? In a pinch, they can always re-define obscene.
I'm a web developer. I run a business. When I talk to a new client, they usually have a budget. They don't have a web server, so they're going to need to acquire one before I can help them.
So, how much does it cost to pick up a Server license? $500 for an OEM Web Edition and way, way, way the fuck up from there?
On top of that, they're going to need a database of course.
So, how much is SQL Server? Bottom end, you're looking at Workgroup Edition for $4000.
Now, on top of this, I'm going to need to pay for development tools, and if they want to change anything six months later, so are they.
So how much of that budget did we use up before we wrote our first line of code? At least 5 grand of it.
How much does it cost to set up LAMP? A couple of hours.
Of course, if you were to actually achieve any sort of success, you'd need more servers, more database licenses, etc, so growth could actually end up tanking your business if you haven't priced high enough to absorb that. Good luck competing with that around your neck.
Recommending prospective clients who aren't already stuck with MS products on the server to pick them up is an act of stupidity that shrinks your budget by handing a significant portion of it directly to MS, plain and simple.
That's the price of the help you're getting. You probably aren't capable of making do without that help, or you wouldn't have given up all that money. But that's not a testament to how great MS are, it's a testament to how ineffectual you are.
What 'professionals' were you talking about? IT ones, presumably. One of my clients has 100k+ employees; they are not allowed to install non-approved software on their PCs, (which I understand). The only approved browser is IE6, (which I find harder to understand - probably becuse all of their crap in-house apps. are written for IE6 only).
Accountants, project managers, graphic designers, lawyers, translators, doctors, administrators, salespeople, etc, etc, etc
Anyone who uses a computer to actually do work, but is not forced to use IE by their employer, basically.
that sounds like a good idea until u hear/read what the average american thinks nowadays ... then u realize that they'll put an even worst government and president there ... or even start a sort of christian-caliphate, ran by some nutcase preacher.
You know the alternative is to stop them with guns on the ground like our grandfathers did, right?