Another vote for the crappiness of the original Galaxy. We owned one (or tried to -- actually six total, as we kept having to take it back) and vowed never again to buy anything from Samsung. The boycott was finally called off years later when the Note came out. It appears that Samsung has finally gotten its act together.
Microsoft may have also, but it's going to take much, much longer for me to trust them again. As bad as the Samsung Galaxy was, it wasn't even close to the aggravation of Windows Phone 6. For instance, that a phone, a PHONE won't RING because something has happened and the audio driver "will now close", is absolutely unacceptable.
Good job trying to establish Linux cred before the Windows plug, but let's look at this.
> In the price range I was looking at none of the android phones ran the current version of android.
Ok, firstly, you either know that's not true and you're betting that some people will just take it on face value, or you haven't looked very hard. Jelly Bean was completed in November and c|net did an article on the top five Jelly Bean handsets on the shelves in January. That's a pretty short time to market by any measure.
Secondly, what exactly is the value of running "the current version of android"? In the old days when we were on the steep end of the curve, the version you ran and whether your provider would ever upgrade you was important, but not now for most people, as the curve has flattened. What specific feature were you looking for that no Android smartphone offered?
Between you and me, I know what "just works" means in the Apple ecosystem. It goes back to being voluntarily imprisoned in the little sheltered garden. "It just works" in that context means you don't get to change the look and feel or run non-apple services in the background or a dozen other things that might make it not work. And for some people, that's fine.
In the Microsoft ecosystem, I suspect that "just works" means, "yeah, we know that previous versions didn't work very well. This one does. Trust us."
Right, exactly, as a marketing strategy, unsubstantiated claims of "it's great! it's easy to use! my kids fight for the privilege of using it!" kinda fall flat.
Not even iphone users fall for that, and they'll fall for ANYTHING. I mean, watching people huddling in the parking lot in the rain waiting for the store to open in order to be the first ones to exchange their 4 for a 4s, what was the marketing phrase? Not "it's great, it's easy to use", they already were convinced of that. One word: Siri. Now it could be argued that Siri proved to be largely pants, but it was at the time the major selling point for the 4s. And it worked.
What does Microsoft have that would sell the Lumia? Tiles. We've already got those on Android, thanks. Dynamic tiles. We've got Widgets, thanks, (something you, Microsoft, abandoned, remember?) and they're prettier than your tiles.
So, then, what?
You keep hearing "easy to use easy to use" could this be Microsoft trying to apologize for Windows Phone 6? Like the marketing phrase "have you driven a Ford LATELY?" Saying, yeah, we screwed up, but we're better now, honest.
If so, that's commendable; when you have a dark history, you first have to compete with your former self before you can compete with others. But that has to happen eventually, and then, what do you have to offer? The most product placements on prime time TV? (Does that even work anymore?)
The comment has been made several times (almost always anonymously) that there are *lots* of reasons to carry a Lumia. Ok, maybe that's true. I can think of one.
A friend of ours was an early adopter of the Surface RT. He carries it everywhere he goes and makes whatever use of it of which it's capable (mostly email and web, when IE isn't crashing). He has a very good reason to have gotten one early, and to still be carrying one. His paycheck says "Microsoft Corporation". His career depends on carrying the device and using it and being seen using it and most importantly, not complaining about it.
Those are good reasons.
Similarly, if your paycheck says "Microsoft Corporation", there's probably a Lumia in your pocket, for a lot of very good, easily substantiated reasons.
I think someone has already pointed out that Unix (OSX, iOS) and Linux (Android) are doing very well, thanks. And the reasons why Windows is the top desktop OS is a topic for another discussion, and has almost nothing to do with usability. (Even more so with the debacle that is Windows 8.)
Popularity is the metric of popularity. There are a lot of reasons why people aren't buying Microsoft's phones. Like me, they may have owned a previous model. (I'll never touch one again.) They may have toyed with one in the store and remarked on the unsophisticated, almost retro look of it. They may be concerned that the lack of marketshare will result in a thin ecosystem and ultimate abandonment. (Like Microsoft has NEVER abandoned a portable OS in the past...) And they may not choose to own one because nobody else does, and they'd feel silly carrying one. (I personally don't consider this a valid reason, but it does exist.) At my daughter's high school, Android is very popular because you can change the look and feel of the desktop. This is apparently very important to high school age consumers. With Win8 you can, what, maybe change the background?
I'm not a fan of things not open source, but claiming that any device (including iphone) just works is just silly market speak.
My boss was fighting his new iphone 5 yesterday to install something but the market app kept crashing and he had to hard reboot the phone every time.
Indeed. When the iphone was qualified as a company phone, you heard co-workers going (dial dial dial) "Hello? Damn." (dial dial dial) "Hello? Damn!" (dial dial dial) "Hello? DAMMIT!" and then Jobs told them they were holding it wrong, and some of them believed it. It's an odd, cult-like kind of mindshare.
He was almost begging to get his old windows phone back.
So there exists some people that prefer windows over the apple one for real reasons:)
You lost me there. Why would anyone who had version 5 or 6 (which were buggy, extremely difficult to use, and ultimately abandoned by M$) or 7 (also abandoned by M$), or knew someone with this experience, or even read about it, have any interest whatsoever in Windows Phone 8? (Or in fact any Windows phone?) Because they saw it on Hawaii Five-0?
Moreover, as an IT person with connections to the wireless department in a large company, my experience is that the execs will put up with almost any behavior from their iphones in order to carry one. Given inevitable issues, they're much more likely to drop them on a wireless admin's desk and say "fix this now!"
Begging for a Windows phone is extremely unlikely from a number of reasons. Not the least of which: Nobody wants to be seen carrying one. We offer iphone (most popular) Blackberry (used to be most popular, then tied with Windows for last place, and now with Q10 showing a solid third place) Android (second place) and Windows. (One model available, no takers.) So is so.
I think that to try to convince people having problems with their iphone, that switching to Windows is what you need to do to guarantee a trouble-free experience, is probably a lot like skating uphill, given what Microsoft has produced in this area in the past. (Both the products themselves, and Microsoft flailing about in the marketplace as they try to find something that works.)
In summary, that the iphone has issues (it does) is not sufficient reason to vault over the lip of the cooking utensil into the flames. And more importantly, I think, to your point, is that as a marketing gimmick, I don't see how this ("iPhone have troubles? Come to Windows!!") can work in the marketplace. Maybe if you wait another generation, the memory of the debacles of the past will fade.
> I'm pretty much surprised I don't see a comment below this mentioning that Android is Linux.
I think you just said.:-) And if you go back far enough, OSX -> Nextstep -> AUX -> BSD, which makes Berkeley Unix one of the most popular desktop OS's.:-) One could say, the year of *nix on the desktop is done got here. And has been for awhile.
I didn't say anything about it being an emotional decision. I'm mildly excited about the Samsung Note series, but because of what it does and how it may fit into my workflow. (Besides the variable pressure stylus, the ability to be a USB master is a selling point.) I currently use Windows because an app I need for content creation currently only runs there (plus certain hardware support). C'est ce que c'est.
It's interesting how the inevitable Windows shills (posting anonymously or from very new accounts) are trying to take the "it just works" aphorism away from Apple. Do you think if you repeat it often enough in relation to Windows Phone, people will just forget what devices the phrase was tied to before?
Caveat, I don't do Apple or M$. (I don't like either of their business models.) But I can spot a slimy marketing technique.
Incidentally, speaking as someone who used to work in marketing for a very large company, if you're going to shill for a company, it's not enough just to say it's the greatest thing since internet porn. You have to say *why* it's better than Jenny McCarthy's centerfold, in some plausible fashion. Just to say "I bought a Windows 8 phone and now my eleven kids are fighting over it and they all want to upgrade their Apple 5's to this" doesn't carry much weight, and parenthetically, seems really unlikely.
Of course, this leaves the shill in the unenviable position of trying to come up with some verifiable advantage to Windows Phone 8.
So looking at your response, and the previous poster's, it's an interesting contrast. Previous poster is seemingly bored with smartphones, and has decided to stick with his Windows phone. You started from basically the same position (bored with smart phones; they've all become commodity devices) and then exhibited excitement with the feature set and degree of integration presented by the Galaxy.
I'm tempted to say, this recalls the old saying, you use Windows because you have to. You use (any other platform) because you want to.
My daughter has a Galaxy Note, and what has attracted me to it is the included variable pressure stylus. In honesty, I'm a Palm Pilot/Treo guy from way way back, and found myself somewhat excited to see a stylus again, but it's not just that. It's a more advanced stylus than you'd expect on a phone, and is integrated well. (Not perfectly, but you could see where they were going.) I have been holding off on a tablet, but want to try out the Note 10.1. But I'm certainly willing to admit my needs are specialized -- content creation -- which isn't the usual usage model for a tablet.
India isn't cheap anymore is the problem. China is quickly becoming not cheap as well. American developers are absolutely cheaper then Taiwanese, South Korean, or Japanese developers. Maybe you can start outsourcing to Nigeria or Pakistan if you want ultra cheap labor for your programming needs.
or bring it back to the US to Mississippi or Alabama. The people are dirt poor, not very well educated, and still have the accent problem, but at least the time zone and payment issue is easier to deal with.
(I am a developer in MS, and I am not sure if I should be happy or sad that my Indian Counterparts have a better quality of life then I do)
If I'm understanding this, one possible conclusion is that offshoring is to a certain extent self-leveling. Offshoring your development causes prices in that market to increase, and prices in local markets to decrease. At some point offshoring no longer makes economic sense, and there might be a general tendency to migrate back to dirt-poor onshore communities, paying them in cigarette wrappers instead of bottle caps, I guess. And so the wrecking ball swings back and forth.
In the meantime, someone local at the company has to deal with the ramifications of code generated on milk crates in a lean-to made of roped together tin sheets.
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Another vote for the crappiness of the original Galaxy. We owned one (or tried to -- actually six total, as we kept having to take it back) and vowed never again to buy anything from Samsung. The boycott was finally called off years later when the Note came out. It appears that Samsung has finally gotten its act together.
Microsoft may have also, but it's going to take much, much longer for me to trust them again. As bad as the Samsung Galaxy was, it wasn't even close to the aggravation of Windows Phone 6. For instance, that a phone, a PHONE won't RING because something has happened and the audio driver "will now close", is absolutely unacceptable.
Good job trying to establish Linux cred before the Windows plug, but let's look at this.
> In the price range I was looking at none of the android phones ran the current version of android.
Ok, firstly, you either know that's not true and you're betting that some people will just take it on face value, or you haven't looked very hard. Jelly Bean was completed in November and c|net did an article on the top five Jelly Bean handsets on the shelves in January. That's a pretty short time to market by any measure.
Secondly, what exactly is the value of running "the current version of android"? In the old days when we were on the steep end of the curve, the version you ran and whether your provider would ever upgrade you was important, but not now for most people, as the curve has flattened. What specific feature were you looking for that no Android smartphone offered?
Other than, it wasn't Windows.
Yeah, like that one.
Between you and me, I know what "just works" means in the Apple ecosystem. It goes back to being voluntarily imprisoned in the little sheltered garden. "It just works" in that context means you don't get to change the look and feel or run non-apple services in the background or a dozen other things that might make it not work. And for some people, that's fine.
In the Microsoft ecosystem, I suspect that "just works" means, "yeah, we know that previous versions didn't work very well. This one does. Trust us."
Right, exactly, as a marketing strategy, unsubstantiated claims of "it's great! it's easy to use! my kids fight for the privilege of using it!" kinda fall flat.
Not even iphone users fall for that, and they'll fall for ANYTHING. I mean, watching people huddling in the parking lot in the rain waiting for the store to open in order to be the first ones to exchange their 4 for a 4s, what was the marketing phrase? Not "it's great, it's easy to use", they already were convinced of that. One word: Siri. Now it could be argued that Siri proved to be largely pants, but it was at the time the major selling point for the 4s. And it worked.
What does Microsoft have that would sell the Lumia? Tiles. We've already got those on Android, thanks. Dynamic tiles. We've got Widgets, thanks, (something you, Microsoft, abandoned, remember?) and they're prettier than your tiles.
So, then, what?
You keep hearing "easy to use easy to use" could this be Microsoft trying to apologize for Windows Phone 6? Like the marketing phrase "have you driven a Ford LATELY?" Saying, yeah, we screwed up, but we're better now, honest.
If so, that's commendable; when you have a dark history, you first have to compete with your former self before you can compete with others. But that has to happen eventually, and then, what do you have to offer? The most product placements on prime time TV? (Does that even work anymore?)
Oh, and another good reason was, he got it for free.
The comment has been made several times (almost always anonymously) that there are *lots* of reasons to carry a Lumia. Ok, maybe that's true. I can think of one.
A friend of ours was an early adopter of the Surface RT. He carries it everywhere he goes and makes whatever use of it of which it's capable (mostly email and web, when IE isn't crashing). He has a very good reason to have gotten one early, and to still be carrying one. His paycheck says "Microsoft Corporation". His career depends on carrying the device and using it and being seen using it and most importantly, not complaining about it.
Those are good reasons.
Similarly, if your paycheck says "Microsoft Corporation", there's probably a Lumia in your pocket, for a lot of very good, easily substantiated reasons.
Otherwise, I'm thinking, not so much.
Mod way up.
The day seems a little brighter.
I think someone has already pointed out that Unix (OSX, iOS) and Linux (Android) are doing very well, thanks. And the reasons why Windows is the top desktop OS is a topic for another discussion, and has almost nothing to do with usability. (Even more so with the debacle that is Windows 8.)
Popularity is the metric of popularity. There are a lot of reasons why people aren't buying Microsoft's phones. Like me, they may have owned a previous model. (I'll never touch one again.) They may have toyed with one in the store and remarked on the unsophisticated, almost retro look of it. They may be concerned that the lack of marketshare will result in a thin ecosystem and ultimate abandonment. (Like Microsoft has NEVER abandoned a portable OS in the past...) And they may not choose to own one because nobody else does, and they'd feel silly carrying one. (I personally don't consider this a valid reason, but it does exist.) At my daughter's high school, Android is very popular because you can change the look and feel of the desktop. This is apparently very important to high school age consumers. With Win8 you can, what, maybe change the background?
I'm not a fan of things not open source, but claiming that any device (including iphone) just works is just silly market speak.
My boss was fighting his new iphone 5 yesterday to install something but the market app kept crashing and he had to hard reboot the phone every time.
Indeed. When the iphone was qualified as a company phone, you heard co-workers going (dial dial dial) "Hello? Damn." (dial dial dial) "Hello? Damn!" (dial dial dial) "Hello? DAMMIT!" and then Jobs told them they were holding it wrong, and some of them believed it. It's an odd, cult-like kind of mindshare.
He was almost begging to get his old windows phone back.
So there exists some people that prefer windows over the apple one for real reasons :)
You lost me there. Why would anyone who had version 5 or 6 (which were buggy, extremely difficult to use, and ultimately abandoned by M$) or 7 (also abandoned by M$), or knew someone with this experience, or even read about it, have any interest whatsoever in Windows Phone 8? (Or in fact any Windows phone?) Because they saw it on Hawaii Five-0?
Moreover, as an IT person with connections to the wireless department in a large company, my experience is that the execs will put up with almost any behavior from their iphones in order to carry one. Given inevitable issues, they're much more likely to drop them on a wireless admin's desk and say "fix this now!"
Begging for a Windows phone is extremely unlikely from a number of reasons. Not the least of which: Nobody wants to be seen carrying one. We offer iphone (most popular) Blackberry (used to be most popular, then tied with Windows for last place, and now with Q10 showing a solid third place) Android (second place) and Windows. (One model available, no takers.) So is so.
I think that to try to convince people having problems with their iphone, that switching to Windows is what you need to do to guarantee a trouble-free experience, is probably a lot like skating uphill, given what Microsoft has produced in this area in the past. (Both the products themselves, and Microsoft flailing about in the marketplace as they try to find something that works.)
In summary, that the iphone has issues (it does) is not sufficient reason to vault over the lip of the cooking utensil into the flames. And more importantly, I think, to your point, is that as a marketing gimmick, I don't see how this ("iPhone have troubles? Come to Windows!!") can work in the marketplace. Maybe if you wait another generation, the memory of the debacles of the past will fade.
Microsoft practically invented it.
> I'm pretty much surprised I don't see a comment below this mentioning that Android is Linux.
I think you just said. :-) And if you go back far enough, OSX -> Nextstep -> AUX -> BSD, which makes Berkeley Unix one of the most popular desktop OS's. :-) One could say, the year of *nix on the desktop is done got here. And has been for awhile.
Does anyone else get the feeling that all of these retorts are being done by the same person?
I didn't say anything about it being an emotional decision. I'm mildly excited about the Samsung Note series, but because of what it does and how it may fit into my workflow. (Besides the variable pressure stylus, the ability to be a USB master is a selling point.) I currently use Windows because an app I need for content creation currently only runs there (plus certain hardware support). C'est ce que c'est.
Well, "no one will buy it" may be mild hyperbole, but ... what was Windows Phone's market share again? Feel free to include 7 and 8.
It's interesting how the inevitable Windows shills (posting anonymously or from very new accounts) are trying to take the "it just works" aphorism away from Apple. Do you think if you repeat it often enough in relation to Windows Phone, people will just forget what devices the phrase was tied to before?
Caveat, I don't do Apple or M$. (I don't like either of their business models.) But I can spot a slimy marketing technique.
Incidentally, speaking as someone who used to work in marketing for a very large company, if you're going to shill for a company, it's not enough just to say it's the greatest thing since internet porn. You have to say *why* it's better than Jenny McCarthy's centerfold, in some plausible fashion. Just to say "I bought a Windows 8 phone and now my eleven kids are fighting over it and they all want to upgrade their Apple 5's to this" doesn't carry much weight, and parenthetically, seems really unlikely.
Of course, this leaves the shill in the unenviable position of trying to come up with some verifiable advantage to Windows Phone 8.
So looking at your response, and the previous poster's, it's an interesting contrast. Previous poster is seemingly bored with smartphones, and has decided to stick with his Windows phone. You started from basically the same position (bored with smart phones; they've all become commodity devices) and then exhibited excitement with the feature set and degree of integration presented by the Galaxy.
I'm tempted to say, this recalls the old saying, you use Windows because you have to. You use (any other platform) because you want to.
My daughter has a Galaxy Note, and what has attracted me to it is the included variable pressure stylus. In honesty, I'm a Palm Pilot/Treo guy from way way back, and found myself somewhat excited to see a stylus again, but it's not just that. It's a more advanced stylus than you'd expect on a phone, and is integrated well. (Not perfectly, but you could see where they were going.) I have been holding off on a tablet, but want to try out the Note 10.1. But I'm certainly willing to admit my needs are specialized -- content creation -- which isn't the usual usage model for a tablet.
I have. He's right.
Mod insightful.
India isn't cheap anymore is the problem. China is quickly becoming not cheap as well. American developers are absolutely cheaper then Taiwanese, South Korean, or Japanese developers. Maybe you can start outsourcing to Nigeria or Pakistan if you want ultra cheap labor for your programming needs.
or bring it back to the US to Mississippi or Alabama. The people are dirt poor, not very well educated, and still have the accent problem, but at least the time zone and payment issue is easier to deal with.
(I am a developer in MS, and I am not sure if I should be happy or sad that my Indian Counterparts have a better quality of life then I do)
If I'm understanding this, one possible conclusion is that offshoring is to a certain extent self-leveling. Offshoring your development causes prices in that market to increase, and prices in local markets to decrease. At some point offshoring no longer makes economic sense, and there might be a general tendency to migrate back to dirt-poor onshore communities, paying them in cigarette wrappers instead of bottle caps, I guess. And so the wrecking ball swings back and forth.
In the meantime, someone local at the company has to deal with the ramifications of code generated on milk crates in a lean-to made of roped together tin sheets.
Should have been "one of which is *the perception* that..."
Edit: I am not convinced the US has a problem with *the growth in number of developers.* It has lots of other problems. :-)
One of which is that a company can save loads of money by offshoring all their development to some place where they can pay them in bottle caps.
1. Tell everyone in Florida that 3.3 meters of water is coming
2. Allow the person who understands what 3.3 meters of water means to move to wherever they want
3. Celebrate
4. Profit!