That's kind of an interesting idea; I've never tried the tramway! Hmm... Maybe I'll check it out. Where would I find it?
Plus: good point about the architecture. I completely forgot about that. He should check out the Empire State Building, too -- great view from up there! Romantic, too, if he's bringing company.
There are so many cool things to look at in NYC, I don't even know where to start, but here are a few I kinda like:
Canal Street: the closest thing New York has to a technological flea market. All sorts of weird tech stores there -- but they're heavily industrial, not consumer-oriented. Motors, rotors, 4'x8' sheets of lexan, ancient keyboards for obsolete mainframe terminals, you name it. And, the Trader! Possibly one of the coolest army/navy stores ever. I once saw the heads up display and targeting system from a Huey Cobra on sale there for 1500.00. Foot-and-a-half wide IR spotlight and all, ready to mount to your VW!
Any of a number of museums around NYC, but some really good ones are: * The metropolitan museum of art * the museum of natural history and Hayden planetarium * the museum of modern art * (way, way uptown -- get a cab) The cloisters, which are an absolute MUST SEE. The man who built this museum actually acquired a number of real monasteries from Europe and flew them to New York stone by stone, rebuilding them into a huge complex which houses a collection of medaeval art that just has to be seen to be believed. During the summer, the cloisters for which this museum is named are in bloom, and you can hang out in them (cloisters are small meditation gardens that were maintained by monks, usually with an arrangement of pillars around a central clearing).
Check out the subways, but stick to the downtown and midtown areas. If you get off at West 4th station, you can hang out in the village! Lotsa fun. Great bars on Bleecker street. I mean GREAT.
I don't remember the exact location, but I think Sony maintains a technology visitor's center with all sorts of interesting displays. It should be in the phone book, I think it's in midtown.
Definitely check out a few cybercafes, and you'll want to see the huge recreation center they built on the West side, on 12th Avenue.
You should check out the statue of liberty if you can, and Ellis Island as well; the ferry rides are wonderful.
And, just to see what it's like, take the Staten Island Ferry. It's huge, weirdly colored, and a nice ride. Don't wander around Staten Island, though. It's, ah, what's the word I'm looking for? SEEDY. And, there's a chance you'll get mugged, especially later on in the day. Hang out on the dock until the Ferry goes back to Manhattan.
Yeah, I know what you mean; a lot of the guys complaining about SCO go a little bit off the deep end and end up sounding like wild-eyed campus radicals. But, you know, even if they get a little carried away, they're still right. SCO really, really should lose. And, lose big. I hope they do.
As for me, well... If SCO wins, I'll sigh, post to Slashdot from my FreeBSD box, and shake my head sadly.
Yes, but what about Netfilter? If you use kernel 2.2, you're limited to ipchains, which aren't stateful. Iptables are stateful (i.e. you can check whether an incoming packet is Established,Related). You won't be able to write quite as sophisticated a firewall. Seems like something of a sacrifice to me.
But! What if the evil link turns her ON? Then the poor devil you just advised is going to have to spend his saturdays at her house, sticking weird things up his ass.
An apartment could set up a local net, with a server in a locked basement room (and maybe a direct connection to the internet, like a T-1 or a business-class DSL line). Within the apartment's local net, people would be able to do whatever they pleased. Totally free geek-to-geek communication. Through the gateway, they could access the internet.
Groups of like-minded apartment managers could set up a building-to-building protocol which would allow apartment buildings to talk to one another and share resources. Think VPN, but using the existing internet for transport. Individuals with commercial internet connections could use a special client to tie in.
Yes, but as I mentioned in another post, SCO wouldn't be able to successfully sue a BSD user. First of all, the AT+T IP SCO is claiming Linux is using was stripped from BSD a long, long time ago. Second, AT+T tried to sue Berkeley over the very same code -- and had to settle because it would have been revealed that quite a bit of BSD code had mysteriously found its way into System V. Third, that settlement itself means that BSD is unencumbered. So, really, it doesn't matter WHAT SCO thinks, any case they brought would be dismissed almost immediately, probably with some kind of punitive counter-claim.
They're not dumb enough to open THAT can of worms.
Second, why are you talking about kernel 2.0? SCO isn't interested in kernels that predate 2.4. 2.0 is irrelevant, and unencumbered.
Third, yes, I accept it, plenty of people are still using 486'es. However, your straw man argument doesn't hold up. Five years is a long time in the computer industry. The success of cell phones and PDAs using alternative processors means that there's nothing stopping other alternative processors from being used everywhere from personal computers to laptops and servers. So you really have NO WAY OF KNOWING whether we'll still be using this architecture five years from now. And, that's my point. A big change in architecture could make the whole case irrelevant.
I find it amusing that you're clinging so closely to X86. Are you an EE by any chance? I bet you are...
Yeah, this was my first attack, and boy, what a surprise. I woke up and it was like, who pounded hot nails through my foot??? I'm trying to deal with it via diet, going totally vegetarian and avoiding purines, drinking lots of water, etc. I hope it works.
Oh, man, ain't it the truth. Since my gout attack, I've gone back to vegetarian, and just the other day, I took my first normal shit in a month.
Wanna hear something funny? To help with my gout, I've got to take these non-steroidal anti-inflammatory horse pills, right? Well, the pill bottle says, "may cause intestinal distress" or words to that effect. I was like, "yeah, yeah, whatever" and I took the pill before my morning meeting (software development).
Well, a few minutes into the meeting, and I'm farting like a Sabre jet. Quiet, sinister dog farts, mind you, but powerful enough to almost lift my ass off the chair. So, I'm thinking, "Ok, I'm not making any noise, no one will notice." But the cloud of death was spreading outwards.
The next thing I know, this poor Indian guy to my right is curling up in his chair with a horrified expression on his face, trying to get himself as far from me as possible without letting on. I don't think the others noticed -- they were a little further away. But, boy, did this poor guy freak out. He was practically sitting on the armrest! Funny...
My pain was in the large joint of my big toe, and it brought me nearly to tears at one point (I'm an ex Marine, and believe me, I don't cry easy). I've been taking these huge anti-inflammatory pills, and drinking a lot of water and such.
I'm going vegetarian, though -- I ain't takin' any chances!!! No more purines for me, man... I've switched from Atkins to a restricted version of the Pritikin diet. So far, so good -- the weight is staying off. But, Jeez, do I miss meat.;)
My father said a great folk cure is cranberry juice. It seems to be working. And, I heard from someone else that if you think you're going to get an attack, eat a half pound of cherries, and it'll help -- but my attack caught me by surprise, so I didn't get to test it.:(
Gout, man, what a drag. I hope it goes away soon. It's been almost two weeks! Ow ow ow ow ow...
I know, bad form replying to my own post, but I forgot something:
What about China's efforts to build a homegrown processor? They're starting with X86-like systems, but that doesn't mean they'll stay there. It'll be only so long before China starts putting out some pretty decent systems -- and these systems start being exported. Who knows WHAT those wild and crazy guys are going to give us? It could be really, truly cool.
I don't think merging is a good idea; a software monoculture is dangerous. However, since BSD is open source, it would be pretty easy to just take the source code from BSD for contested areas of the kernel and whip up Linux versions (at least for the experts currently working on the kernel -- it'd be way over MY head, ha ha). What's interesting about this is, there's probably a bunch of stolen BSD code in SCO's "IP" (remember, the AT+T suit got settled mighty quick, although SCO doesn't seem to be able to think back that far). So, SCO could try and lay claim to this new code; but it would suddenly come out that it was BSD code and SCO was the one that was in violation! Which I would think would be somewhat amusing...;)
"Linux and BSD have coexisted for what...12 years now, and they have nevertheless maintained distinctive personalities. Do you honestly believe that in 2 more years they will suddenly be interchangable? It's not as if that's the sort of thing anyone is even working on. It's just silly."
You misunderstood me. I'm not saying they'll be identical. I'm saying you will be able to use either one to run virtually any application made for either. Already, with Linux Binary Compatability, you can run most Linux software on FreeBSD. By 2005 it'll be more or less complete. And, just about every major package available for FreeBSD has a Linux version. They'll be interchangeable in the sense that any thing you might want to do will be possible on either platform without having to do too much work in porting your stuff over.
Ok, next point:
"There are still people running 2.2 now. Heck, there are still people running 2.0 now. I'm sure in 2005 there will be plenty of people still running 2.4. 2.6 isn't even done yet. Never underestimate the power of legacy software."
Yes, but most of the types of organizations that SCO is targeting are using relatively new builds of Linux. Given that this issue exists, when new kernels that are unencumbered are made available, don't you think people are going to snap them up? Realistically, I mean, think about it.
"Another case of a strange conception of time. x86 has been with us for a very long time, and it is set to be with us for longer. Particularly if AMD's x86-64 extensions take off. Talking about 486s is a tad erroneous (even ignoring the fact that many of us, including me, still have 486s in their basements doing useful things) since the processors we use today are still based on the same exact ISA that those 486s were based on. So you just disproved your own point!"
Umm, NO. Does your linux-based PDA use an x86 architecture? Does your hardware firewall? Does your cell phone? No? But many of them run LINUX. My point is that a variety of new processor types are being thought up on a constant basis, and we have no way of knowing what'll be in vogue years from now (realistically, five years from now because the court case will start in '05 and will probably drag on past '08). Are you so sure your servers will be using X86? Why not PowerPC? Why not IBM's new copper-based technology? Why not a Centrino-ish thing? Don't be such a stick in the mud. X86 is not the whole world, dude. And, there's no reason why the code has to be the same for every processor. IBM has the resources to whip up a new platform and a Linux to go with it, which won't use anything SCO can whine about. Surely you see what I mean?
As far as SCO's lawsuit being x86 specific, SCO's major Unix business was the building of Intel-based unices, was it not? ON X86. So, the code in question is X86-related. QED.
(to an A/C who actually IS using an old 486 as a router).
My bad; Ok, ok, there are a few out there. But, most people are up to at least a Pentium III. My point was that our systems are going to change, particularly those used in the enterprise, which is what SCO is targeting, so it's entirely possible that the whole lawsuit could be irrelevant before it even gets settled.
I'm not going to argue the point, because you have a good one, but I'll add a warning:
If you're one of the 800 out of 100,000 people who are susceptible to gout, you'd better stick to a high-carb, low-protein diet or you'll be in a world of hurt in no time. I went on Atkins and lost thirty pounds. So far, so good, right? But, one morning I woke in agony. The high protein brought on a horrible attack of gout, which is a form of arthritis affecting the large joints of the foot, and often comes on overnight with very little warning. I felt like someone was driving red hot spikes through my big toe's largest joint, and within a few days I couldn't even walk. It's about a week and a half later, and I'm hobbling around, yoda-style with a wooden cane, but at least the pain has gone way down (I'm a vegetarian now, and I'm drinking huge amounts of water, cranberry juice, and cherry juice, which seems to be helping).
GOUT. And, I'm only 32!!!
Anyway, you won't know you're susceptible until you have an attack, and if you have an attack, you'll wish you were dead for at least a week or two. It's really, really horrible. The pain is really intense.
I agree. What I would do is, buy an "Aircycle" which is kind of a stationary bicycle which uses air pressure to provide resistance. They're cheap, and burn about 450 calories per half hour. Put it in your living room and do a half hour to an hour a day, before or after work. It's easier on the joints than running, too.
It seems to me that most of this case is about "Unix on intel" which is what SCO was writing code for (the code they claim people misappropriated). So, if we've moved along to some newer, faster, nicer platform, and the base code changes to accomodate that, there's a very good chance that the changes will wipe out anything SCO can claim ownership of. Look at all the handhelds that now run linux -- none of those are x86. This stuff is being invented amazingly quickly. What server architecture is going to be in place five years from now? Who knows? What new code might IBM write and release to cover new processors? Who can say? One thing's for sure: the fact that the code would be entirely new would mean SCO couldn't pretend to own it.
I don't know how a change of this sort would affect processors which inherited x86 code, and I'm far from an expert in this area. But it seems to me that if things change enough, the whole issue could just go away. SCO would end up arguing that they own code that isn't in use anymore. The world would collectively ask, "Yeah? So what" and that would be that.
As I posted in another thread, after reading a fairly good article on the subject in eWeek this morning, I think the SCO suit is going to be completely irrelevant to most people for the following reasons (IANAL, this is my opinion based on articles I've read and etc):
1. The suit isn't due to come into court until 2005. Until the court makes some kind of judgement, SCO has absolutely zero legal power to demand anything from anyone. They can send all the letters they want; but until a court makes a decision, they're just letters.
2. By 2005, the BSDs and Linux will have become so similar in functionality, hardware support, and applications, that migrating from one to the other will be fairly painless. Since the BSDs are unencumbered, and SCO is specifically targeting the Linux 2.4 kernel, this means we have a great big safety net.
3. By 2005, who's going to be using the 2.4 kernel? Unabomber-like holdouts, crouching in a shed with a dilapidated old Pentium-II and a stockpile of candy bars and beer? Any code which even remotely looks like SCO code is going to be stripped out long before then. So, the code in use by the time the court convenes is going to be unencumbered anyway. What could SCO possibly charge people money for, even if they win?
4. 2005 gives the market a full two years to crush SCO. The court case will probably drag on for another two or three years, giving the market even more time. How is a company like SCO going to stay aloat that long? How is it going to avoid a hostile takeover for that long? Two to five years is an eternity when it comes to software.
5. By 2008 (when the case would probably get wrapped up and appealed, etc), do you think we're still going to be using X86 machines, anyway? It's 2003; how many of you are still using the 486's you had in '98? Who's still using a 16 bit O/S? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
Add it all together, and you'll see that buying SCO right now is a sucker move. If you just continue with business as usual, keeping the option of switching to BSD down the road, or updating to a new, unencumbered kernel, or migrating from X86 to whatever new platform is the vogue in 2005, you can (I think) pretty much ignore SCO. If, and this is remote, they win, it won't matter anyway. You can still dodge their sad attempts at extortion as I've pointed out.
I just read that they're specifically targeting the 2.4 kernel, which is where they say their code was placed. They claim they're just going after business users, and will leave home users alone (yeah, right). Also, the court case won't come up until 2005, which means they have no legal right to demand anything until well after that point (there was a good article about this in eWeek, 7/22). From this I gather:
1. This whole thing is completely irrelevant, because long before 2005 all even remotely offending code (whether it's actually offending or not) is going to be stripped.
2. No-one is still going to be using kernel 2.4 at that point, anyway.
3. This gives the market a full two years to gut SCO, which is an eternity. They could be taken over, they could be bought outright, they could go bankrupt... On the internet, every day is "anything can happen day".
4. Long before then, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD will have gotten to the point where they're virtually equivalent to Linux (I think they're already equally powerful, but they have some work to do on hardware support and Linux still has more applications, although the gap is getting pretty narrow). So even if SCO wins, which is a long shot, it STILL won't matter.
I've totally stopped worrying about this silliness. I mean, really. SCO is a fat, lazy, toothless lion without claws trying to roar and whimpering instead. The market is a hunting party which is currently content to marvel at the weird old lion, occasionally throwing a peanut at it. Sooner or later, the market will get bored and turn the lion into a trophy, you know?
A while ago, I used to work for a company that was using stock options to lure talent (this was during the tech boom). At one time, I had a few thousand options available to me, and although I never confessed this to my supervisors, I thought (no - I KNEW) the whole thing was a joke. I had several reasons for feeling this way, among which were the fact that being a programmer, I could be handily laid off as soon as my work was completed, thus preventing me from vesting my options. In fact, I realized that this made good business sense from the company's point of view and I fully understood that this was *exactly* what was going to happen. And, this was during the tech boom. Oh, there were other aggravations, like the fact that programmer's options were tiny compared to those of the "creative" staff. But the threat of layoff was the big one.
Fast forward to 2003. Companies are eager to outsource and lay off every staff member they can. You have to know, going into any private or publicly held company, that you are eventually going to be canned. And, you also have to know that there is no way they're going to let you stay long enough to vest your options. During the tech boom, it was a suspicion (that proved accurate). These days, it's a certainty.
What I'm saying is, options were ridiculous during the tech boom but now they're absolutely absurd.
Pay your workers a living wage, give them a good benefits package, let them work a 40 hour week, and don't ride them too hard. Forget about options. Just show some respect and loyalty, and you'll be all set.
Well, whether SCO recognizes it or not, FreeBSD is unencumbered as a result of the original AT+T lawsuit. Also, if they did decide to get that stupid and attack FreeBSD, the countersuit that would almost instantly be brought would show all the places where the original AT+T code was tainted with FreeBSD code, resulting in a rather nasty public evisceration of SCO. I don't think SCO would want to open up *that* can of worms...;)
Slashdot Mirror
That's kind of an interesting idea; I've never tried the tramway! Hmm... Maybe I'll check it out. Where would I find it?
Plus: good point about the architecture. I completely forgot about that. He should check out the Empire State Building, too -- great view from up there! Romantic, too, if he's bringing company.
There are so many cool things to look at in NYC, I don't even know where to start, but here are a few I kinda like:
Canal Street: the closest thing New York has to a technological flea market. All sorts of weird tech stores there -- but they're heavily industrial, not consumer-oriented. Motors, rotors, 4'x8' sheets of lexan, ancient keyboards for obsolete mainframe terminals, you name it. And, the Trader! Possibly one of the coolest army/navy stores ever. I once saw the heads up display and targeting system from a Huey Cobra on sale there for 1500.00. Foot-and-a-half wide IR spotlight and all, ready to mount to your VW!
Any of a number of museums around NYC, but some really good ones are:
* The metropolitan museum of art
* the museum of natural history and Hayden planetarium
* the museum of modern art
* (way, way uptown -- get a cab) The cloisters, which are an absolute MUST SEE. The man who built this museum actually acquired a number of real monasteries from Europe and flew them to New York stone by stone, rebuilding them into a huge complex which houses a collection of medaeval art that just has to be seen to be believed. During the summer, the cloisters for which this museum is named are in bloom, and you can hang out in them (cloisters are small meditation gardens that were maintained by monks, usually with an arrangement of pillars around a central clearing).
Check out the subways, but stick to the downtown and midtown areas. If you get off at West 4th station, you can hang out in the village! Lotsa fun. Great bars on Bleecker street. I mean GREAT.
I don't remember the exact location, but I think Sony maintains a technology visitor's center with all sorts of interesting displays. It should be in the phone book, I think it's in midtown.
Definitely check out a few cybercafes, and you'll want to see the huge recreation center they built on the West side, on 12th Avenue.
You should check out the statue of liberty if you can, and Ellis Island as well; the ferry rides are wonderful.
And, just to see what it's like, take the Staten Island Ferry. It's huge, weirdly colored, and a nice ride. Don't wander around Staten Island, though. It's, ah, what's the word I'm looking for? SEEDY. And, there's a chance you'll get mugged, especially later on in the day. Hang out on the dock until the Ferry goes back to Manhattan.
Yeah, I know what you mean; a lot of the guys complaining about SCO go a little bit off the deep end and end up sounding like wild-eyed campus radicals. But, you know, even if they get a little carried away, they're still right. SCO really, really should lose. And, lose big. I hope they do.
As for me, well... If SCO wins, I'll sigh, post to Slashdot from my FreeBSD box, and shake my head sadly.
Yes, but what about Netfilter? If you use kernel 2.2, you're limited to ipchains, which aren't stateful. Iptables are stateful (i.e. you can check whether an incoming packet is Established,Related). You won't be able to write quite as sophisticated a firewall. Seems like something of a sacrifice to me.
The way we used to say it in the USMC, it was:
"Aw, put a flag on her head and fuck 'er for glory!"
But! What if the evil link turns her ON? Then the poor devil you just advised is going to have to spend his saturdays at her house, sticking weird things up his ass.
Seems like a dangerous tactic to me.
Why use light? Just use peer-to-peer wi-fi.
;)
An apartment could set up a local net, with a server in a locked basement room (and maybe a direct connection to the internet, like a T-1 or a business-class DSL line). Within the apartment's local net, people would be able to do whatever they pleased. Totally free geek-to-geek communication. Through the gateway, they could access the internet.
Groups of like-minded apartment managers could set up a building-to-building protocol which would allow apartment buildings to talk to one another and share resources. Think VPN, but using the existing internet for transport. Individuals with commercial internet connections could use a special client to tie in.
All very underground, of course.
Thanks! I'll check into it. Interesting...
Yes, but as I mentioned in another post, SCO wouldn't be able to successfully sue a BSD user. First of all, the AT+T IP SCO is claiming Linux is using was stripped from BSD a long, long time ago. Second, AT+T tried to sue Berkeley over the very same code -- and had to settle because it would have been revealed that quite a bit of BSD code had mysteriously found its way into System V. Third, that settlement itself means that BSD is unencumbered. So, really, it doesn't matter WHAT SCO thinks, any case they brought would be dismissed almost immediately, probably with some kind of punitive counter-claim.
They're not dumb enough to open THAT can of worms.
Second, why are you talking about kernel 2.0? SCO isn't interested in kernels that predate 2.4. 2.0 is irrelevant, and unencumbered.
Third, yes, I accept it, plenty of people are still using 486'es. However, your straw man argument doesn't hold up. Five years is a long time in the computer industry. The success of cell phones and PDAs using alternative processors means that there's nothing stopping other alternative processors from being used everywhere from personal computers to laptops and servers. So you really have NO WAY OF KNOWING whether we'll still be using this architecture five years from now. And, that's my point. A big change in architecture could make the whole case irrelevant.
I find it amusing that you're clinging so closely to X86. Are you an EE by any chance? I bet you are...
An A/C said: "800 out of 100,000
isn't that like 8 out of a 1000, or did the statistic not look scary enough unless you multiplied it by 100"
Um, NO. The actual statistic, and I looked it up again, was 850/100,000. I have no idea why they used 100,000. It's not my statistic.
I just read 'em folks, I don't write 'em!
Yeah, this was my first attack, and boy, what a surprise. I woke up and it was like, who pounded hot nails through my foot??? I'm trying to deal with it via diet, going totally vegetarian and avoiding purines, drinking lots of water, etc. I hope it works.
Oh, man, ain't it the truth. Since my gout attack, I've gone back to vegetarian, and just the other day, I took my first normal shit in a month.
Wanna hear something funny? To help with my gout, I've got to take these non-steroidal anti-inflammatory horse pills, right? Well, the pill bottle says, "may cause intestinal distress" or words to that effect. I was like, "yeah, yeah, whatever" and I took the pill before my morning meeting (software development).
Well, a few minutes into the meeting, and I'm farting like a Sabre jet. Quiet, sinister dog farts, mind you, but powerful enough to almost lift my ass off the chair. So, I'm thinking, "Ok, I'm not making any noise, no one will notice." But the cloud of death was spreading outwards.
The next thing I know, this poor Indian guy to my right is curling up in his chair with a horrified expression on his face, trying to get himself as far from me as possible without letting on. I don't think the others noticed -- they were a little further away. But, boy, did this poor guy freak out. He was practically sitting on the armrest! Funny...
My pain was in the large joint of my big toe, and it brought me nearly to tears at one point (I'm an ex Marine, and believe me, I don't cry easy). I've been taking these huge anti-inflammatory pills, and drinking a lot of water and such.
;)
:(
I'm going vegetarian, though -- I ain't takin' any chances!!! No more purines for me, man... I've switched from Atkins to a restricted version of the Pritikin diet. So far, so good -- the weight is staying off. But, Jeez, do I miss meat.
My father said a great folk cure is cranberry juice. It seems to be working. And, I heard from someone else that if you think you're going to get an attack, eat a half pound of cherries, and it'll help -- but my attack caught me by surprise, so I didn't get to test it.
Gout, man, what a drag. I hope it goes away soon. It's been almost two weeks! Ow ow ow ow ow...
Thanks for the info!
Phil
I'm pretty excited to see what they come up with next. I'm impressed with what they're doing so far. Kinda cool.
I know, bad form replying to my own post, but I forgot something:
What about China's efforts to build a homegrown processor? They're starting with X86-like systems, but that doesn't mean they'll stay there. It'll be only so long before China starts putting out some pretty decent systems -- and these systems start being exported. Who knows WHAT those wild and crazy guys are going to give us? It could be really, truly cool.
I don't think merging is a good idea; a software monoculture is dangerous. However, since BSD is open source, it would be pretty easy to just take the source code from BSD for contested areas of the kernel and whip up Linux versions (at least for the experts currently working on the kernel -- it'd be way over MY head, ha ha). What's interesting about this is, there's probably a bunch of stolen BSD code in SCO's "IP" (remember, the AT+T suit got settled mighty quick, although SCO doesn't seem to be able to think back that far). So, SCO could try and lay claim to this new code; but it would suddenly come out that it was BSD code and SCO was the one that was in violation! Which I would think would be somewhat amusing... ;)
Point, and counterpoint:
;)
"Linux and BSD have coexisted for what...12 years now, and they have nevertheless maintained distinctive personalities. Do you honestly believe that in 2 more years they will suddenly be interchangable? It's not as if that's the sort of thing anyone is even working on. It's just silly."
You misunderstood me. I'm not saying they'll be identical. I'm saying you will be able to use either one to run virtually any application made for either. Already, with Linux Binary Compatability, you can run most Linux software on FreeBSD. By 2005 it'll be more or less complete. And, just about every major package available for FreeBSD has a Linux version. They'll be interchangeable in the sense that any thing you might want to do will be possible on either platform without having to do too much work in porting your stuff over.
Ok, next point:
"There are still people running 2.2 now. Heck, there are still people running 2.0 now. I'm sure in 2005 there will be plenty of people still running 2.4. 2.6 isn't even done yet. Never underestimate the power of legacy software."
Yes, but most of the types of organizations that SCO is targeting are using relatively new builds of Linux. Given that this issue exists, when new kernels that are unencumbered are made available, don't you think people are going to snap them up? Realistically, I mean, think about it.
"Another case of a strange conception of time. x86 has been with us for a very long time, and it is set to be with us for longer. Particularly if AMD's x86-64 extensions take off. Talking about 486s is a tad erroneous (even ignoring the fact that many of us, including me, still have 486s in their basements doing useful things) since the processors we use today are still based on the same exact ISA that those 486s were based on. So you just disproved your own point!"
Umm, NO. Does your linux-based PDA use an x86 architecture? Does your hardware firewall? Does your cell phone? No? But many of them run LINUX. My point is that a variety of new processor types are being thought up on a constant basis, and we have no way of knowing what'll be in vogue years from now (realistically, five years from now because the court case will start in '05 and will probably drag on past '08). Are you so sure your servers will be using X86? Why not PowerPC? Why not IBM's new copper-based technology? Why not a Centrino-ish thing? Don't be such a stick in the mud. X86 is not the whole world, dude. And, there's no reason why the code has to be the same for every processor. IBM has the resources to whip up a new platform and a Linux to go with it, which won't use anything SCO can whine about. Surely you see what I mean?
As far as SCO's lawsuit being x86 specific, SCO's major Unix business was the building of Intel-based unices, was it not? ON X86. So, the code in question is X86-related. QED.
I eagerly await your reply.
(to an A/C who actually IS using an old 486 as a router).
My bad; Ok, ok, there are a few out there. But, most people are up to at least a Pentium III. My point was that our systems are going to change, particularly those used in the enterprise, which is what SCO is targeting, so it's entirely possible that the whole lawsuit could be irrelevant before it even gets settled.
I'm not going to argue the point, because you have a good one, but I'll add a warning:
If you're one of the 800 out of 100,000 people who are susceptible to gout, you'd better stick to a high-carb, low-protein diet or you'll be in a world of hurt in no time. I went on Atkins and lost thirty pounds. So far, so good, right? But, one morning I woke in agony. The high protein brought on a horrible attack of gout, which is a form of arthritis affecting the large joints of the foot, and often comes on overnight with very little warning. I felt like someone was driving red hot spikes through my big toe's largest joint, and within a few days I couldn't even walk. It's about a week and a half later, and I'm hobbling around, yoda-style with a wooden cane, but at least the pain has gone way down (I'm a vegetarian now, and I'm drinking huge amounts of water, cranberry juice, and cherry juice, which seems to be helping).
GOUT. And, I'm only 32!!!
Anyway, you won't know you're susceptible until you have an attack, and if you have an attack, you'll wish you were dead for at least a week or two. It's really, really horrible. The pain is really intense.
I agree. What I would do is, buy an "Aircycle" which is kind of a stationary bicycle which uses air pressure to provide resistance. They're cheap, and burn about 450 calories per half hour. Put it in your living room and do a half hour to an hour a day, before or after work. It's easier on the joints than running, too.
It seems to me that most of this case is about "Unix on intel" which is what SCO was writing code for (the code they claim people misappropriated). So, if we've moved along to some newer, faster, nicer platform, and the base code changes to accomodate that, there's a very good chance that the changes will wipe out anything SCO can claim ownership of. Look at all the handhelds that now run linux -- none of those are x86. This stuff is being invented amazingly quickly. What server architecture is going to be in place five years from now? Who knows? What new code might IBM write and release to cover new processors? Who can say? One thing's for sure: the fact that the code would be entirely new would mean SCO couldn't pretend to own it.
I don't know how a change of this sort would affect processors which inherited x86 code, and I'm far from an expert in this area. But it seems to me that if things change enough, the whole issue could just go away. SCO would end up arguing that they own code that isn't in use anymore. The world would collectively ask, "Yeah? So what" and that would be that.
As I posted in another thread, after reading a fairly good article on the subject in eWeek this morning, I think the SCO suit is going to be completely irrelevant to most people for the following reasons (IANAL, this is my opinion based on articles I've read and etc):
1. The suit isn't due to come into court until 2005. Until the court makes some kind of judgement, SCO has absolutely zero legal power to demand anything from anyone. They can send all the letters they want; but until a court makes a decision, they're just letters.
2. By 2005, the BSDs and Linux will have become so similar in functionality, hardware support, and applications, that migrating from one to the other will be fairly painless. Since the BSDs are unencumbered, and SCO is specifically targeting the Linux 2.4 kernel, this means we have a great big safety net.
3. By 2005, who's going to be using the 2.4 kernel? Unabomber-like holdouts, crouching in a shed with a dilapidated old Pentium-II and a stockpile of candy bars and beer? Any code which even remotely looks like SCO code is going to be stripped out long before then. So, the code in use by the time the court convenes is going to be unencumbered anyway. What could SCO possibly charge people money for, even if they win?
4. 2005 gives the market a full two years to crush SCO. The court case will probably drag on for another two or three years, giving the market even more time. How is a company like SCO going to stay aloat that long? How is it going to avoid a hostile takeover for that long? Two to five years is an eternity when it comes to software.
5. By 2008 (when the case would probably get wrapped up and appealed, etc), do you think we're still going to be using X86 machines, anyway? It's 2003; how many of you are still using the 486's you had in '98? Who's still using a 16 bit O/S? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
Add it all together, and you'll see that buying SCO right now is a sucker move. If you just continue with business as usual, keeping the option of switching to BSD down the road, or updating to a new, unencumbered kernel, or migrating from X86 to whatever new platform is the vogue in 2005, you can (I think) pretty much ignore SCO. If, and this is remote, they win, it won't matter anyway. You can still dodge their sad attempts at extortion as I've pointed out.
This whole thing is a total non-issue.
I just read that they're specifically targeting the 2.4 kernel, which is where they say their code was placed. They claim they're just going after business users, and will leave home users alone (yeah, right). Also, the court case won't come up until 2005, which means they have no legal right to demand anything until well after that point (there was a good article about this in eWeek, 7/22). From this I gather:
1. This whole thing is completely irrelevant, because long before 2005 all even remotely offending code (whether it's actually offending or not) is going to be stripped.
2. No-one is still going to be using kernel 2.4 at that point, anyway.
3. This gives the market a full two years to gut SCO, which is an eternity. They could be taken over, they could be bought outright, they could go bankrupt... On the internet, every day is "anything can happen day".
4. Long before then, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD will have gotten to the point where they're virtually equivalent to Linux (I think they're already equally powerful, but they have some work to do on hardware support and Linux still has more applications, although the gap is getting pretty narrow). So even if SCO wins, which is a long shot, it STILL won't matter.
I've totally stopped worrying about this silliness. I mean, really. SCO is a fat, lazy, toothless lion without claws trying to roar and whimpering instead. The market is a hunting party which is currently content to marvel at the weird old lion, occasionally throwing a peanut at it. Sooner or later, the market will get bored and turn the lion into a trophy, you know?
A while ago, I used to work for a company that was using stock options to lure talent (this was during the tech boom). At one time, I had a few thousand options available to me, and although I never confessed this to my supervisors, I thought (no - I KNEW) the whole thing was a joke. I had several reasons for feeling this way, among which were the fact that being a programmer, I could be handily laid off as soon as my work was completed, thus preventing me from vesting my options. In fact, I realized that this made good business sense from the company's point of view and I fully understood that this was *exactly* what was going to happen. And, this was during the tech boom. Oh, there were other aggravations, like the fact that programmer's options were tiny compared to those of the "creative" staff. But the threat of layoff was the big one.
Fast forward to 2003. Companies are eager to outsource and lay off every staff member they can. You have to know, going into any private or publicly held company, that you are eventually going to be canned. And, you also have to know that there is no way they're going to let you stay long enough to vest your options. During the tech boom, it was a suspicion (that proved accurate). These days, it's a certainty.
What I'm saying is, options were ridiculous during the tech boom but now they're absolutely absurd.
Pay your workers a living wage, give them a good benefits package, let them work a 40 hour week, and don't ride them too hard. Forget about options. Just show some respect and loyalty, and you'll be all set.
Well, whether SCO recognizes it or not, FreeBSD is unencumbered as a result of the original AT+T lawsuit. Also, if they did decide to get that stupid and attack FreeBSD, the countersuit that would almost instantly be brought would show all the places where the original AT+T code was tainted with FreeBSD code, resulting in a rather nasty public evisceration of SCO. I don't think SCO would want to open up *that* can of worms... ;)