er..? have just read some of you're posts and you seem reasonable enough, so i think this is just a mistake on your part or we have a different understanding of mono anyway
1. mono goes way beyond what is in the ECMA standard (just c# and CLR) and attemts to implument stuff like ASP.NET and winforms (through WINE ughhhhh! how ugly is that) Miguel has stated he is aiming for 99% compatibility with.NET - thats way way beyond whats in the EMCA document
2. so mono won't be able to use them. cross-platform goes out of the window i guess! mono fails - or at least is much less useful than envisioned
3 see 1
4. but mono already includes a lot of this
5 see 1
6 see 1
7 see 1
8 see 1
9 see 1
10 see 1
i can back this up with some links if you can be bothered to argue any further.
Q. why would a huge monoply allow a tiny competitor to have its IP gratis...? A. ah so it could use this as evidence of grass roots momentum during the early phase of selling a new platform to a rightly sceptical market...
Q. but why would MS let mono exist in the longer term..? A. there is no reason.
"if you were to look at Microsoft as a person in your life, you'd wonder what was wrong with him or her such that so much had to be controlled by that person."
thats where miguel has gone wrong. you should not be investing in a project that relies on the continued good will of MS. especially if that project is esentially aiming to take some control away from redmond
"castles made of sand, melt into the sea, eventually"
Sadly it would appear our illustrious leader is having an off day. whats that your saying?
Whoa there "Gullible Moron" is a bit harsh surely... but wait.....
if he is constantly posting dupes => he doesn't even read his own site => he probably didn't scrutinise the story......
so i guess my real question is "CmdrTaco; can you read?";)
as other posters have said: its clever & subtle, but almost certainly a hoax.
the real question is who made the hoax and what were their motives? The timing of this may have been designed to hurt Sun especially since Sun is making big PR noises tomorrow according to the banners on/.
A review of the problem indicates that these issues are not inherent to Java but instead represent implementation oversights and inconsistencies common to projects which do not comunicate effectively with partners and users.
this is talking about a problem with the solaris JRE
Can't imagine what the problem is - in my experience java on solaris is very fast.But its well known that most of the dev resources go into getting the Windows version to fly
i know sun have been angling Java for use in telecomunications for a while and keep running into problems there because they require consistant QoS (no pauses for garbage collection), less memory overhead, and scaling to handle huge numbers of threads. From what i've read a lot of these problems have been addressed with 1.4 (certainly incredible improvements in GC). improvements between major new JRE versions are bound to mean some programs need to be reworked to fully take advantage - but i have never once seen a program that wouldn't run on a newer version of the JRE ie no backword compatiblity issues whatsoever. EVER. As for grid line behaviour changing in the Jtable I mean for f*^% sake is this guy on crack? swing programmers should never be worrying about absolute stuff like that good Swing programs are are lot like good HTML - they assume very little (but yeah they do use a load of memory)
i don't know what this guys ploblem is. The source code to 99% of the J2RE and J2SDK is available. (the bits that are closed source are stuff to do with fonts and imaging codecs that Sun doesn't own i believe) so what is to stop these guys fixing the problems in the solaris implementation? they work for Sun for christs sake! they could be more proactive than just whining and submiting bug reports.
MS will be found guilty and given the biggest fine ever. MS appeal - and the appeal process takes forever - RealPlayer fades away (nobody notices or cares)- Bill Gates donates $100M to fight AIDS in eastern Europe and is lauded as Europe's hero, a selfless white knight whose moral integrity should never be questioned again.
everything you say is true. Microsoft is a bad company and Mono does seem to be dancing to the MS tune.
if Miguel had just taken the EMCA c# spec and plugged a new language into GCC then yeah kudos to him. But integrating the whole.NET tech stack into the linux desktop is just plain dangerous IMO. patents could kill it. we risk linux becoming percieved as a 2nd class OS (poor mans.NET just as WINE is the poor mans WIN32).
so yeah - come on RMS. "should free software be implementing a new platform foundation when the patent issues surrounding the full.NET framework are unresolved?"
the java client app i always show people to convince them that java on the client is about 100 times faster than they thought is photomesa :
"PhotoMesa is a zoomable image browser. It allows the user to view multiple directories of images in a zoomable environment, and uses a set of simple navigation mechanisms to move through the space of images. It also supports grouping of images by metadata available from the file system. It requires only a set of images on disk, and does not require the user to add any metadata, or manipulate the images at all before browsing, thus making it easy to get started with existing images."
duno how this is the first J2ME kit for linux. I've been developing mobile apps fow a while now on Linux using Sun's J2ME dev tools.
but who cares - nokia are one of the biggest and most powerful tech companies in the world right now and here is further proof they have no love for microsoft.
savaje OS is a Java operating system for the ipaq and mobile phones. It is not a virtual machine for an OS, the virtual machine is the OS. If you've got an old ipaq you can download the installer and give it a whirl. Impressive things about it are:
its fast
its small for full j2SE (the whole OS is about 20mb)
its complete - the same java as on your desktop (not just the mobile version)
the os API is the full J2SE Java API with swing and Java 2D, so Java programmers don't need to learn anything new
existing java programs don't need to be recompiled or ported
it plays mp3s!
unfortunately the company developing/marketing have proven themselves to be untrustworthy and foolish. What was once a promising little developer community around the OS has recently been deserting in droves.
Still it was interesting to play with, and definate proof of concept that Java 2 standard edition makes a rich and compact OS all on its own
what does sun have to loose here?
they are asking for $1bn in damages and compulsary bundling of java with windows. If they win then great. if they loose so what, they are no worse off.Early indications fron the judge are MS will be the loosers.... MS stands to loose ok only a tiny fraction of their cash pile, but more importantly they might loose the precedent - opening them up to hundreds of similar private cases from real, adobe, corel, netscape, dr dos, sendo, ibm, aol..... any company billy boy has screwed with his windoze monopoly and thats lots and lots!
Oh yeah... sun pulled out of the whole ISO thing because it was clear MS would have then been free to embrace and extend AKA kill. They provided the JCP as an alternative body which they use to protect Java from the nasty people in redmond. Java isn't really propriatry there are many VM implementations the JCP specs are open. Its just the name Java(TM) thats protected and licensed.
yawn. its not so much that everyone here is pro java - its that we collectively hate the beast. Microsoft has bullied, killed good tech stuff, and illegally leveraged their desktop monopoly. Although MS got off light on the anti-trust, i am hoping to sit back and watch the beast die from a thousand cuts. This is probably the first cut. pull up a chair, put your feet up and pass the popcorn....
what a completely stupid point you make. How were these supposed MS corporate customers (dumb enough to be reliant on the MS VM) not inconveinienced at all when MS recently (briefly) decided not to include their VM with XP! Was billy boy thinking of his corporate clients then? No - he was just trying to damage Java and promote.Not
Each new version of a microsoft product has introduced subtle changes that cause headaches (AKA compelling reasons to upgrade everyone) for programmers and admins with lots of desktops. Get used to it or Switch!
This isn't necessarily a good thing for sun in short term because it draws press attention to java's failure on the desktop. However, if microsoft are forced to keep suns latest JRE as part of the standard windows install for a a few years (as the case drags on) then this will be a huge win for Sun.
java has arguably already won the enterprise-server-app war with the entire industry of players oracle,ibm,macromedia,... currently allied versus the beast and will probably win the handheld/mobile battle unless microsoft can defeat sonyErricson, nokia, sharp and palm...
Java is currently a huge success everywhere but the desktop.
(aside)
Why has java failed on the desktop.... not just because of the redmond crew but because swing is 'kin huge bloated and considered slow. Swing will always be slow relative to naitive, but I love it because it stays ideologically pure to the spirit of write once run the same anywhere. Its fairly obvious that sun were looking at a 10 year roadmap when they released swing coz its gonna take that long before swing apps run imperceiveably slower than native apps (and no doubt will still look like shit by default). However, a machine shipping with XP today will be able to run swing applications ok.
(/aside)
Its only recent PC hardware that has began to run Swing at an acceptable speed. The timing of this ruling could make desktop java very compelling if it as seamlessly integrated into XP.2003 as it is in OSX
1.Check out photomessa. Its a free (as in beer, the toolkit is under Mozilla Public Licence), small and useful zoomable image browser
2.Install photomessa using java webstart (quick, easy, secure)
3.rethink your java speed prejudices
Slashdot Mirror
good point, well made
er..? have just read some of you're posts and you seem reasonable enough, so i think this is just a mistake on your part or we have a different understanding of mono anyway
.NET - thats way way beyond whats in the EMCA document
1. mono goes way beyond what is in the ECMA standard (just c# and CLR) and attemts to implument stuff like ASP.NET and winforms (through WINE ughhhhh! how ugly is that) Miguel has stated he is aiming for 99% compatibility with
2. so mono won't be able to use them. cross-platform goes out of the window i guess! mono fails - or at least is much less useful than envisioned
3 see 1
4. but mono already includes a lot of this
5 see 1
6 see 1
7 see 1
8 see 1
9 see 1
10 see 1
i can back this up with some links if you can be bothered to argue any further.
what you are saying doesn't add up:
.NET. So:
MS have a monoply and own the patents on
Q. why would a huge monoply allow a tiny competitor to have its IP gratis...?
A. ah so it could use this as evidence of grass roots momentum during the early phase of selling a new platform to a rightly sceptical market...
Q. but why would MS let mono exist in the longer term..?
A. there is no reason.
"if you were to look at Microsoft as a person in your life, you'd wonder what was wrong with him or her such that so much had to be controlled by that person."
thats where miguel has gone wrong. you should not be investing in a project that relies on the continued good will of MS. especially if that project is esentially aiming to take some control away from redmond
"castles made of sand, melt into the sea, eventually"
.NET ?
;)
thats some funny sheeat
- yeah because a fresh install of VS.NET is vulnerable to the slammer worm straight out of the box! no sql server required.
Trustworthy computing brought to you by bill gates arse
thanks. that was a good article.
Here is the link actual
if anyone has any mod points spare they might want to use them on the parent
Sadly it would appear our illustrious leader is having an off day. whats that your saying? Whoa there "Gullible Moron" is a bit harsh surely... but wait .....
if he is constantly posting dupes => he doesn't even read his own site => he probably didn't scrutinise the story......
;)
so i guess my real question is "CmdrTaco; can you read?"
as other posters have said: its clever & subtle, but almost certainly a hoax.
/.
the real question is who made the hoax and what were their motives? The timing of this may have been designed to hurt Sun especially since Sun is making big PR noises tomorrow according to the banners on
A review of the problem indicates that these issues are not inherent to Java but instead represent implementation oversights and inconsistencies common to projects which do not comunicate effectively with partners and users.
this is talking about a problem with the solaris JRE
Can't imagine what the problem is - in my experience java on solaris is very fast.But its well known that most of the dev resources go into getting the Windows version to fly
i know sun have been angling Java for use in telecomunications for a while and keep running into problems there because they require consistant QoS (no pauses for garbage collection), less memory overhead, and scaling to handle huge numbers of threads. From what i've read a lot of these problems have been addressed with 1.4 (certainly incredible improvements in GC). improvements between major new JRE versions are bound to mean some programs need to be reworked to fully take advantage - but i have never once seen a program that wouldn't run on a newer version of the JRE ie no backword compatiblity issues whatsoever. EVER. As for grid line behaviour changing in the Jtable I mean for f*^% sake is this guy on crack? swing programmers should never be worrying about absolute stuff like that good Swing programs are are lot like good HTML - they assume very little (but yeah they do use a load of memory)
i don't know what this guys ploblem is. The source code to 99% of the J2RE and J2SDK is available. (the bits that are closed source are stuff to do with fonts and imaging codecs that Sun doesn't own i believe) so what is to stop these guys fixing the problems in the solaris implementation? they work for Sun for christs sake! they could be more proactive than just whining and submiting bug reports.
MS will be found guilty and given the biggest fine ever. MS appeal - and the appeal process takes forever - RealPlayer fades away (nobody notices or cares)- Bill Gates donates $100M to fight AIDS in eastern Europe and is lauded as Europe's hero, a selfless white knight whose moral integrity should never be questioned again.
I have Karma to burn. Waste another point. Please. me too. I hate Flash with passion.
everything you say is true. Microsoft is a bad company and Mono does seem to be dancing to the MS tune.
.NET tech stack into the linux desktop is just plain dangerous IMO. patents could kill it. we risk linux becoming percieved as a 2nd class OS (poor mans .NET just as WINE is the poor mans WIN32).
.NET framework are unresolved?"
if Miguel had just taken the EMCA c# spec and plugged a new language into GCC then yeah kudos to him. But integrating the whole
so yeah - come on RMS. "should free software be implementing a new platform foundation when the patent issues surrounding the full
the java client app i always show people to convince them that java on the client is about 100 times faster than they thought is photomesa :
"PhotoMesa is a zoomable image browser. It allows the user to view multiple directories of images in a zoomable environment, and uses a set of simple navigation mechanisms to move through the space of images. It also supports grouping of images by metadata available from the file system. It requires only a set of images on disk, and does not require the user to add any metadata, or manipulate the images at all before browsing, thus making it easy to get started with existing images."
its fast and free (beer) and i use it every day
try it
duno how this is the first J2ME kit for linux. I've been developing mobile apps fow a while now on Linux using Sun's J2ME dev tools.
but who cares - nokia are one of the biggest and most powerful tech companies in the world right now and here is further proof they have no love for microsoft.
the choises java enables will be M$s downfall
savaje OS is a Java operating system for the ipaq and mobile phones. It is not a virtual machine for an OS, the virtual machine is the OS. If you've got an old ipaq you can download the installer and give it a whirl. Impressive things about it are:
its fast
its small for full j2SE (the whole OS is about 20mb)
its complete - the same java as on your desktop (not just the mobile version)
the os API is the full J2SE Java API with swing and Java 2D, so Java programmers don't need to learn anything new
existing java programs don't need to be recompiled or ported
it plays mp3s!
unfortunately the company developing/marketing have proven themselves to be untrustworthy and foolish. What was once a promising little developer community around the OS has recently been deserting in droves.
Still it was interesting to play with, and definate proof of concept that Java 2 standard edition makes a rich and compact OS all on its own
Prescott is a cunt
the irony of using a java applet to watch microsofts share price fall
what does sun have to loose here? they are asking for $1bn in damages and compulsary bundling of java with windows. If they win then great. if they loose so what, they are no worse off.Early indications fron the judge are MS will be the loosers.... MS stands to loose ok only a tiny fraction of their cash pile, but more importantly they might loose the precedent - opening them up to hundreds of similar private cases from real, adobe, corel, netscape, dr dos, sendo, ibm, aol..... any company billy boy has screwed with his windoze monopoly and thats lots and lots!
and complie full J2SE 1.4.1 SDK for linux using gcc3
Oh yeah... sun pulled out of the whole ISO thing because it was clear MS would have then been free to embrace and extend AKA kill. They provided the JCP as an alternative body which they use to protect Java from the nasty people in redmond. Java isn't really propriatry there are many VM implementations the JCP specs are open. Its just the name Java(TM) thats protected and licensed.
yawn. its not so much that everyone here is pro java - its that we collectively hate the beast. Microsoft has bullied, killed good tech stuff, and illegally leveraged their desktop monopoly. Although MS got off light on the anti-trust, i am hoping to sit back and watch the beast die from a thousand cuts. This is probably the first cut. pull up a chair, put your feet up and pass the popcorn....
what a completely stupid point you make. How were these supposed MS corporate customers (dumb enough to be reliant on the MS VM) not inconveinienced at all when MS recently (briefly) decided not to include their VM with XP! Was billy boy thinking of his corporate clients then? No - he was just trying to damage Java and promote .Not
Each new version of a microsoft product has introduced subtle changes that cause headaches (AKA compelling reasons to upgrade everyone) for programmers and admins with lots of desktops. Get used to it or Switch!
This isn't necessarily a good thing for sun in short term because it draws press attention to java's failure on the desktop.
However, if microsoft are forced to keep suns latest JRE as part of the standard windows install for a a few years (as the case drags on) then this will be a huge win for Sun.
java has arguably already won the enterprise-server-app war with the entire industry of players oracle,ibm,macromedia,... currently allied versus the beast and will probably win the handheld/mobile battle unless microsoft can defeat sonyErricson, nokia, sharp and palm... Java is currently a huge success everywhere but the desktop.
(aside)
Why has java failed on the desktop.... not just because of the redmond crew but because swing is 'kin huge bloated and considered slow. Swing will always be slow relative to naitive, but I love it because it stays ideologically pure to the spirit of write once run the same anywhere. Its fairly obvious that sun were looking at a 10 year roadmap when they released swing coz its gonna take that long before swing apps run imperceiveably slower than native apps (and no doubt will still look like shit by default). However, a machine shipping with XP today will be able to run swing applications ok.
(/aside)
Its only recent PC hardware that has began to run Swing at an acceptable speed. The timing of this ruling could make desktop java very compelling if it as seamlessly integrated into XP.2003 as it is in OSX
anyways i'm gonna carry on compiling my own p4 optimized sun j2SDK for Linux from source code using gcc3.. "export INSANE=true"woo hoo!
1.Check out photomessa. Its a free (as in beer, the toolkit is under Mozilla Public Licence), small and useful zoomable image browser
2.Install photomessa using java webstart (quick, easy, secure)
3.rethink your java speed prejudices