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MS Must Ship Java With Windows Within 120 Days
Suppafly writes "Cnet is reporting that a federal judge on Wednesday ordered Microsoft to begin shipping Sun Microsystems' Java with the Windows operating system within 120 days, after the companies fought over implementing a ruling he made last month."
Its been hell trying to suport end users with our web tool, that is java based, and having to walk them though installing/downloading java from Sun's site.
thelikesofwhich.com
Microsoft lawyers may be able to either stall it, get it reviewed, or even get it overturned. That's the way the law works. Likewise, there may be other avenues outside of the Courts that Microsoft may take.
This little penguin doesn't forget favors
.... Java ships with Windows.
I have to side with Microsoft on this one. I don't think the government should have the power to say you must include X in your product. It's like the government mandating that Ford must use Bosch break systems in their vehicles even though Ford can make their own cheaper (purely hypothetical situation). How would everyone like it if the court forced Debian to include Sun's Java as part of the standard install instead of the user having the option to install gcj for instance?
"Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman
Sun Java (JVM) is crap. What a step backwards.
Just like watching the bully getting dragged by the ear to the car by his mom.
Send your friends messages of love at fuck-you.org
This is like forcing linux to come with .NET and ActiveX within 120 days. Still sound reasonable?
This would mean that online services finally have to start adopting real Java support.
Showstopper No. 1 for Linux useres wanting to use internet services such as banking has been MS Java VM. I got a message form my bank to days ago telling me I had to use the 'standard' Java VM to get their service to work. They meant MS VM.
- Ost
---- Sig. gone.
Great. Now there are the questions of whether it will a) be installed by default, b) be installed even if you told it not to, and c) increase the already-bloated price of the OS by taking on some sort of "distribution charge."
What about those of us who don't want Java - anyone's implementation - at all???
Will this mean that MS must fully integrate java into it's operating system? Or can they get away with just shipping either the free download off of the sun site or even just including a link to download it off it the sun website. Will they have to provide support for it over windows update, or do they only have to provide the initial download?
... I don't agree with the ruling ...
....
... or why don't they have to include the Macromedia plug-in?
... this is my opinion in regards to fair competition
It is like telling AOL to ship MSN8 with their latest distro
Sun and Microsoft are competitors. MS developes Visual Studio and should promot their programming distro.
If MS has to include Java, wh don't the have to include Perl, Python, PHP, and interpreters for other languages
Everyone has to download the pluins and interpreters for other products, why should Java and Sun be so special?
BTW: My favorite programming language is Java, so I am definately not biased here
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
To be fair, the judge also recommended that Sun ship Windows with Java2 SDK to give developers a crash test API.
The government first decides that MS cannot ship IE with Windows - browser's not essential part of an OS. Then the goverment decides that MS has to ship Java with Windows. What would happen if MS decides to include Kafee instead of Java?
If enithin kan gow rong it whil. (Murfey)
Microsoft, which told Motz on Thursday that shipping Java with Windows was not a simple matter and could harm large corporate users of Windows, is almost certain to appeal--a move the judge anticipated.
Does anyone have details of what Microsoft claims was so hard about installing Java with Windows? Given that Sun already provide a complete Windows installer why can't they do this in 120 days? How could this "harm large corporate users". I know Microsoft are just stalling, but what argument did they put forward to the judge? Clearly it wasn't that convincing...
Sailing over the event horizon
Red hat ordeded to ship java
Suse ordered
Mandrake ordered
Slackware ordered
Gentoo ordered
Debian ordered
Yoper ordered
Conectivia ordered
Gnu/hurd.
All the other distros that nobodys heard of ordered.
No sig, sorry.
now sun can use realplayer tactics to force advertisements on ALL new M$ users!!!!!
How do I go about getting my program included with windows...the best way to reach the most people with ads!
Do not underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups!!!!!!
[I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
Windows has a virtual monopoly on desktop systems and what they most fear is cross-OS compatability. It's the only thing that will allow serious competitors to Windows (desktop) to emerge. The only other possible hole in their armor is Mono, and I'm guessing that MS will do everything it can to kill it using underhanded legal tactics...
If you want Java, download it. Nothing is stopping you, except a lack of bandwidth. I don't understand the fixation with forcing Microsoft to ship other people's software.
Since Sun is now relying on Microsoft's distribution channels, do they owe MS fees for costs involved in distributing and supporting thier software?
All SUN, and Linux OS distributions will now be required to have Microsoft Windows components built directly into the kernel. The reason for this is in retaliation for Java being forced into the windows world.
For all the java people out there, i'm sorry but this is ridiculous if Microsoft doesn't want to put the java vm into their OS that is THEIR decision. It is their OS, no matter how bad it sucks.
hi, it's me again, joe_bruin, coming to you as AC so as not to spank my karma any longer. just here to let you know that I AM TEH FAILURE!!!111, since i failed in my bid for first post. i have no-one to blame but myself for this failure, i have brought shame upon myself and my associates. for this, i apologize and humbly ask for your forgiveness.
thank you.
while i'm here, here is a gratuitous goatse link.
"If my order doesn't get stayed or reversed (on appeal), it's going to get done," Motz said.
Anyone else read this and get the impression that Motz isn't particularly confident that it will happen? I read that line and my brain converted it to: "If Microsoft doesn't mind and decides not to take their money and lawyers to a more friendly court farther up stream then it's going to get done, but don't count on it."
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
Microsoft has been ripping off other companies for years... Some ppl may not like Sun Java, but that doesn't make it right for "Uncle Bill" to do what he claims others are doing to him. btw... FIRST POST!!!
The answer is 42.
Microsoft has announced that Windows will be slower and more bloated than before. Most of the new slowdown will be experienced when running java programs. When asked for comment, Bill Gates simply mumbled something about "stupid anti-trust laws."
I just installed the Windows version of Opera on a computer this weekend and I am pretty damn sure it gave me the option to install the latest version of Java at that time...
Am I wrong?
And if I'm right, is your company just not willing or unable to do the same thing?
Or are you whining because its not preinstalled by M$? Are there not other platforms that do NOT have Java installed by default?
I would guess that there are but M$ is the most common OS used by your end users so you run into this most often.
---"What did I say that sounded like 'Tell me about your day?'"---
http://java.sun.com/getjava/index.html
One thing I can't find out from any of these stories is the Java version?
Is MS shipping Java1.4? 1.1? 1.2? Some truncated version of one of the above?
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
Bundling Java with Windows won't hurt, but it won't seriously help, either.
.NET.
The web community has overwhelmingly chosen JavaScript for advanced web-based functionality. Java applets are a niche these days, and will most likely remain that way.
Java on the desktop is in sorry shape. You can choose AWT (which is too limited) and Swing (which is too big, slow, and some people think, ugly). It won't be able to compete with the nice native GUIs you get with
I can't think of very many developers who think writing their desktop applications in Java is a good idea. And I can't think of very many JavaScript developers who will switch to Java once Microsoft bundles Java with Windows.
Besides, we're talking about Microsoft. Who here DOESN'T think Microsoft won't taint Java in some way? Raise your hands. I've got a bridge to sell you.
-Teckla
Now I'll be able to visit all those wonderful Java-powered websites and use all those fantastic Java applets that I simply couldn't do without!
All of you that "feel bad" for Microsoft need to remember that this is happening because MS broke a binding agreement with Sun.
... that Microsoft and Sun will stay locked in this battle long enough for other technology to grow around the whole issue. While Microsoft is dealing with Java, they won't be able to push C#/.NET effectively, and with luck, by the time they've dealt with it (and given the current pro-Microsoft government slant, I have to assume they will deal with it) it won't matter that much.
I used to be a big Java fan, but it's become so bloated, and there are so many better alternatives out there, that I'm no longer as interested in its fate as I used to be. Almost anything you want to do with Java, you can now do faster and more efficiently in some other language. Once Parrot is up and running, the OSS world will finally have a full-fledged VM that can beat the hell out of both Java and anything Microsoft is likely to come up with. Web services are already falling to PHP, Python, and mod_perl. The efforts of Zend (PHP) and the Parrot (Perl and Python) team will accelerate this trend. And depending on how well Parrot can be integrated into native API's, we may well be seeing real "write once, run anywhere" apps written in Python or Perl within a couple of years. It's funny to think that something that started as an April Fool's joke may be the actual Next Big Thing.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
A warehouse in Siberia recieves 3 million coppies of Windows 3.11 (all running java). A Microsoft spokesman is over heard saying "OH! you meant ship it _to_ someone?!"
-=sig=-
Can they force MS to carry Netscape Navigator, Mozilla, Opera, or any other third-party application that competes/conflicts with already installed materials? Can MS produce their own JVM to compete and let the market duke it out, or do we get stuck with just one?
We shall see...we shall see...
I wonder what Vegas odds on this actually happening are? I would take 5-1 against if anybody were that stupid.
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
I hate Microsoft as much as the next guy, but this just doesn't seem right.
Why? Here we have one company being told that it needs to include another company's software.
Does this mean Sun will have to bundle IE with Solaris because it owns 40% of the server market?
What does this mean for any company that has a dominating position in it's field? Does it have to start deploying other company's software because that company can't figure out a way to market their product in the first place?
BTW, Java is slow. It chokes our E450's with 4 UltraSparc 480's each with 8MB cache. It chokes our 8 ways. It's just too damn slow. GREAT! I can run the same software on every machine on the network at a snails pace!
Since when are judges trained enough to know what should be shipped with an OS?
I guess I'm the only one (or one of few) that sees a problem with ignorant government officials/beureacrats deciding which products should include which technology.
A modern day witchhunt.
or forced to install?
I don't want Java back on my machine. Once bitten, twice shy.
Personally I don't see it as the courts/govts duty to legislate crappy companies into the black. Thats how we end up with stuff like the DMCA.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Here's the big question.
Which Java VM will Microsoft use? Will it be Sun's current 1.4.1 (which works best in Windows 2000 and XP)? Or will it be one that is supposed Sun-compatible from the likes of HP, IBM, and so on?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Are you suggesting that Sun Java is not a good product? If so, then are you saying that the fed is deliberately sabotaging Windows? Interesting idea!
Sun Java is not open source, however.
I want to make an appeal to all developpers, to let this not be a starting point of making Java applets for the web again!
:-), Java on Windows is not such a big deal...
The web is actually a lot better now developpers know that ActiveX, Java and full Flash sites have a lot of problems attached. Finally there is some knownledge about (and government pressure for use of) the W3.org principles. Portability and accessibility are beginning to become standards for the web. Furthermore, if you really need more action in your site, Javascript can do a lot.
Everyone, whatever disabilities or browser they have, should have the right to use the web. (and Java is still not standard in say Lynx, and electronica for blind people will fail seeing the information).
Java server side is fine, Java for applications is ok, if the application is fast enough or people are willing to wait for it, please please never make applets again...
So actually if everyone listens to me
Regent law student charged with Internet sex crime
By JON FRANK, The Virginian-Pilot
© January 14, 2003
Last updated: 11:14 PM
VIRGINIA BEACH -- A third-year law student at Regent University, who
helped
run several successful campaigns for local Republicans, was arrested
Jan. 10
and charged with two counts of soliciting sex with a minor over the
Internet.
Robin Vanderwall is being held without bond in the Virginia Beach City
Jail.
Vanderwall, 34, is charged with two felonies -- use of a communication
device for crimes against children and attempted indecent liberties with
a
child 14 or younger.
Vanderwall was arrested after he contacted a Virginia Beach police
officer
who was posing as an underage boy in an Internet chat room, according to
prosecutors. The officer agreed to meet with Vanderwall at a Virginia
Beach
park on the evening of Jan. 10. Vanderwall was arrested when he showed
up at
the park.
Vanderwall ran Del. Robert F. McDonnell's successful campaign against
former
Sheriff Frank Drew for the House of Delegates in 1999.
Is that they had a contract with sun, which they broke, several ways. They USED to ship java, people use it, depend on it, and it's a PAIN IN THE ASS not having it included.
They were under contract to keep java in windows... and they broke it.
If they had a contract with macromedia, and then broke it, they could be made to stick to it as well.
What microsoft is doing is more akin to the phone company, a legally acknowledged monopoly, that blocks you from calling a competitor of theirs. Except in microsoft's case, they reroute the call to a mock phone company which provides different rates and services intentionally meant to dissaude people from switching to that competitor.
It's anti-competive. It's illegal. And this is a fair punishment.
MS has contrtact with Sun to ship Java but they breached it. The judge is ordering them to uphold their end.
This sure as hell is not protecting my rights. In the name of competition, the courts are bloating up operating systems with even MORE crap that should be on some sort of companion disc. The last thing Windows needs is more crap in the default install.
If the judge does not want MS distributing a broken version of Java, I can understand that. But he should not force them to cram Sun's java into the OS, he should just tell them to fix their own! This decision is just a Lance Ito wannabe, blustering out his bad decision in a Jackson-esque fashion, hoping that interviewers will knock his door down.
Everyone who's hollering about poor Micro$oft being forced by the big bad government to include Sun's JVM in Windows and crying that Java runs sooo slow on Windows now needs to calm down for 2 seconds and think. One of the reasons Java runs like crap on Windows is that Microsoft didn't implement it right. They bastardized their own version and big surprise they did a shoddy job. All this judgement is saying, is that's not right to screw over another company and turn yourself into a monopoly.
"Reality is a crutch for people who can't handle drugs."
Now if only Sun would start shipping Java with Windows. No wait...that wouldn't work, nevermind.
FoundNews.com - get paid to blog.,
I hate to say this, but their deadline to include a JRE should be within 30 days after Sun includes an implementation of a .NET runtime... although I'm not sure a deadline for MS to produce one should be a stipulation or whether it would be up to Sun to create one or implement a Mono-ish product.
Microsoft, which told Motz on Thursday that shipping Java with Windows was not a simple matter and could harm large corporate users of Windows.......
How's that? A complete lie as far as I can tell.
Of course, anyone with half a brain realizes that if Java hadn't been torpedoed by Microsoft the monopolist early on it would be the premier method for delivering interactive web content like forms and 98% of the other things Flash (truly a crappy alternative IMO) is used for now.
So, WOOHOO for Java winning a round or two - its a nice trend that I hope helps it pick up big momentum. Java is quickly becoming the best choice for most modern, industrial strength software development. :-)
Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
Score: -1 100% Flamebait
What if Linux were the monopoly operating system out there? What if it had a 95% market share and Microsoft/Apple had the other 5%? All you pro-linux people would of course say that it is because linux is the superior OS, its the easiest and most productive for consumers and all that. So what if Microsoft went to court to force linux to include .Net support?
You fools never think about the reversed situations. You only like it when the courts are used against your competetion and then you somehow rationalize it in your little minds to make yourselves feel better.
Get a clue and join reality.
Should AOL cds have to include a copy of every other little ISP's installation software? Isnt AOL leveraging their monopoly and cash reserves to squeeze out other ISPs by shipping out millions of their cds?
Should GM have to include Sony radio/cd players in their cars? Isnt GM forcing consumers to use their GM radios when they buy a car? Why shouldnt Sony be given an equal chance to have that consumer use a Sony radio? Should we include radios from every manufacturer in new cars and let the consumer choose which they want to use?
MS created a better VM for Java on it's first attempt years ago. It performed way faster than anything Sun could have created.
To all those saying that it's unfair for the government to make MS include Sun's java in windows: Well, I'm sure if MS wanted to include NO Java support in Windows at all then that would be fine - but of course they are going to have some kind of java support in windows. And since Sun owns java, it is perfectly fair for them to call foul when MS includes their own bastardized version of java with windows - in fact, I'm suprised that Sun didn't outright sue MS.
It's like me creating a new kind of food - say I invent the ChocoTaco and patent it. Then I see the guy across the street selling ChocoTacos, only he makes them with walnuts instead of peanuts. Well - since I own the patent on ChocoTacos, I have a legal ground to say "either sell my chocotacos or do away with them altogether". Okay, bad analogy. But I'm still right.
Where are all these judges coming from? I didn't even know MS was still in court, but every couple weeks it seems like some federal judge or other is ordering Bill to do some crazy thing or other. Did they just declare to do away with the legal system and declare open season on them or what?
Either way, I'm not going to hold my breath. It never seems like MS ends up doing any of these things anyway, so at this point I kind of tune it out.
Not that I necessarily agree with the judgement anyway. Does anyone still use Java? Our courts just don't operate on a fast enough time scale for them to be relevant in the computing industry.
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
So what happens if this happens:
1. MSFT still haven't shipped after that deadline, what will *really* happen.
2. Its so broken people will hate Java and then MS comes back to court and states that it had to remove Java as it did not jive with its components, so was removed in the best interests of the company.
StarTux
This article here is quite interesting, assesing all the possible consequences of the ruling.
When did my name get changed to McNealy?
Freedom Is Universal
Linux-Universe
MS is facing a judge and his judgement because they appear to have broken the rules that we all have to abide by. They seem to bully people in the marketplace. The judge is the one we collectively hire to set things straight.
I hate bullies, and who doesn't? I'm glad that we can take collective action against them. MS has every opportunity to show the judge that they don't fall into that category.
I, for one, believe that they will get a fair shake.
Can someone provide a list, or at least a link, describing how the MS implementation of Java was broken?
Joe
http://www.joegrossberg.com
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Sun start out suing MS to _remove_ Java from Windows, then sue to get it back in, and so on? A few times back and forth?
That's sort of obnoxious, like having a little brother with ADD and a mean streak.
jack's bicycle is music to my ears
I dont need or want java on my machines.
I think this is excellent news; as a developer, the fact that java is not shipped with windows makes it a pain in the ass to write java apps for windows users. :)
if i write a c++ app, no problem, a user can simply download and run it. If i write a java app, and say distribute it as a JAR file, your average user isnt gonna want to download the Java runtime or sdk, then launch the jar file calling java -jar or javaw.exe or whatever.
Java pre installed on windows means i can easily write pure java apps that will work easily on all windows boxes. Bring it on
RJ
Last.fm - join the social music revolution
You can see sun's source at any time, just go tot ml
http://wwws.sun.com/software/java2/download.h
and download it. You just can't change it.
I never lost the 'right' to use Java on windows.
This is about MS's rights in the marketplace, not my rights online.
Or does anything that has to do with MSFT automatically categorize it as YRO to get peoples dander up?
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
know how to install Java.
Microsoft was shipping MSVM which would try (and most often fail) to run Java code that in came in contact with. This caused users to think that the program was to blame or that Java sucked.
If Microsoft included Linux with every copy of windows it would hurt better distrobutions. Normally this would just be looked down up, but because M$ is a monopoly they are covered by special laws to prevent them from killing off helpless competitors in new markets. They are supposed to help prevent M$ from forcing Coca Cola and Pepsi(bleck) out of the soft drink market. Rather than do such an obvious takeover, M$ is tried to "inch foreward" into the virtual machine market.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
That Sun should be forced to include the .NET runtimes for Solaris with Solaris.....
The great trumpeter Al Hirt played a catchy tune called Java - you can listen to a few bars here
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
What with their new J# ide which can load a java app and in a single mouse click turn it into a .NET app.
The ruling has come too late for sun methinks....
.ACMD setaloiv siht gnidaeR
Sun needs it.
According to this article they wrote down there highest loss (partly due to exeptional costs, but hey, still a loss).
Linux hosting for $2.50/mo
I don't consider this a win for anyone or against Microsoft, but I do consider it HILARIOUS!
The judge then notified Microsoft and Sun he would stay his ruling for two weeks as a courtesy to the appeals court that will hear Microsoft's request for a review of the Java ruling.
More free stuff with windows! Yay!
Live life to the fullest. It's not that life is short, but that you are dead for so long.
By reading the threads in this article it is obvious that:
Microsoft = Bad
Sun/Java = Good
But have you all forgotten that Sun reneged on ISO standardization of Java. Isn't that a bad thing? After promising ISO compliance as a means of getting the developers hooked, shouldn't Sun and Java be looked upon with scorn? All you Java developers are locked into a proprietary platform. How is that any different from riding the Microsoft trolley?
The anti-Microsoft stuff is getting ridiculous. It is just plain pathetic when it becomes hypocritical. Mod me down all you want, troll, flamebait, whatever. Some of you need to take a step back and assess your priorities.
Why should the strong be forced to carry the product of the weak? Is it because the unsuccessful have a *need* for profit? Is it an inalienable right to move product regardless of whether anyone wants it?
I have two words for this: corporate welfare.
If there must be welfare, it should go to some washed up individuals who can't take responsibility for their lives, not to corporations! It's not even humanitarian anymore when you help corporations; it's just plain stupidity. It a form of socialism consisting of empty Marxist principles abstracted away from any kind of meaningful social context that would give them even a trace of a vague justification.
I don't like Microsoft's idiotic, unreliable, inflexible, non-interoperable products any more than the next open source hacker, but this is not the right way. Microsoft, and indeed every software enterprise, should be able to take whatever bit pattern they want, so long as they didn't steal it, stamp it on a CD, and ship it.
Sun had lots more experience developing systems (software *and* hardware) than Microsoft. They did the Microsoft thing to mainframes and minis by developing cheap workstations running Unix. Nobody wanted a fridge-sized Vax after seeing a 32 bit Sun workstation. They had a shot at becoming the number one operating system vendor for personal computers. They are losers: they blew it. Losers should die, not whine and snivel their way into an extension of their existence in some courtroom.
What will we see next? McDonald's restaurants in the USA being forced to hand out coupons for Subway with every meal or sandwich sold?
I hope the people at Sun are happy with their accomplishment---that their product will be carried on the back of a competitor's product by governmental coersion, ending up on the desktops of many people who don't even want it. It must sure feel great to be on the JVM development team at Sun right now!
MS is going down. It is time to short its stock and make some money.
A higher court will block the court order before the 120 days are up.
This is an amazing news ... ... and this could be a major change in the internet landscape : now you will have a clean, easy, fast, common way to developp rich web applications !
Amazing to imagine that applet could just revive withing the next 120days !!!
With J2SE and webservices you now have an alternative to the debug and test HTML troubles.
-4ZER
Judge extends order so that Microsoft not only includes Java, but also AOL and 1/3 the proceeds of the sale of the operating system must go to Wal-Mart. Yay big corporations!
Bill Gates : Steve with Java and Linux it seems like we have to shuv two pineapple a day thru our ass hole these days.
Steve Balmer: I will rather got with water melon.
Bill Gates: With our earning down and poor sales we cant afford water melons.
no text
This whole matter is too complicated. Windows shouldn't be shipping it's own VM, especially one that actually doesn't run Sun's Java applets. But on the other hand I don't want to accept Sun's Java as a standard that comes installed with Windows.
This solution will only harm other software made by 3rd party developers by putting Java in a situation of advantage.
Unfortunately I think the reason why they want to put Sun's Java in Windows is because there's a contract signed by MS saying so. But seriously... I can't see Java as a big part of my computing experience.
Just a thought by someone who thinks he's got enough crap installed on his box,
Decameron
diegoT
Does 'shipping with Java' also apply to including Java on the online Windows Update? If that isn't the case alot of Windows users will still be Java-less by default.
void women (int money, time_t time);
I know this may get modded as Offtopic, but it's the bigger news story for both Microsoft and the tech industry today:
"Microsoft sets dividend, stock split"
Microsoft is the last of the Dow 30 to start paying a dividend, and paves the way for other tech companies that have held out paying dividends. Should be an interesting morning in trading for MSFT.
Microsoft and Sun have had lots of legal battles over Java. Neither looks good.
Microsoft once had by far the best Windows JVM. It was fast, much faster than Sun's. And it allowed really easy access to COM from Java.
Of course those apps didn't run on Solaris. Whay should that bother Microsoft? They were better Windows apps.
Sun objected to the mechanisms that Microsoft had used and in a lawsuit forced Microsoft to stop shipping that.
Then they complained that Microsft had stopped shipping Java.
Sun has shot themselves in the foot (and other body parts) with Java for years. Microsoft is
not the obstacle to good Java on Windows.
Java has become one of the primary tools for enterprise development, mostly on the server, but also on enterprise clients, where downloading an applet or java app is typically not time consuming for the client because they are on a LAN.
What takes so long in software development? TESTING, and in java testing different versions of the VM. Up until this point, enterprises have been able to enforce a VM version on enterprise clients, and the developers can count on that version being on the client desktops. Now what? If the enterprise wants to stick with its 1.2.2 or 1.3.1 VM, they can't install WinXP SP2? What happens with the next SP and a new java VM? All enterprise java apps will need to be thoroughly tested with each new service pack, since Sun's VMs are not all backwards compatible.
In addition, if anyone is still righting java applets for the internet, how does this help? What percentage of users are going to have XP SP2 in the next 12-24 months?
This solves none of the Java VM version issues. This was Sun saying "wah wah" in court and getting a sympathetic judge.
Sun needs to hand over Java to the JCP and stop using it as a weapon in its fight against MS.
For all those slamming MS, I'd like them to comment on the fact that Sun has entered the AppServer market. Wait, wait wait... how can they make the language AND sell a high performance AppServer!?
Sun has a huge advantage over other AppServer vendors. Not only do they have access to information that the other vendors do not, Sun has the ability to "steer" future Java/J2EE offerings such that it helps their implementation while hurting their competitors...
This sounds like something MS would do... right people?
We're talking about Microsoft here, so naturally this is sweet. And considering MS is a convicted monopolist it even makes some sense. And it's sweet, did I mention that?
But does this set a precident? Could AOL force MS to include the AOL software? Netscape? Where do you draw the line?
Is this really the way we'd like to see MS punished? I guess since the DOJ botched their case so badly, maybe this is the best we'll get now.
May I use the M$ JVM if I like?
*I used to be quite irreverent and ignorant. I am probably much smarter now. I seem to realize this every 45 days or so.
what a wonderfull world...
Just too bad not making them compulsary to ship linux instead of windows, and KDE with aqua style with native java compiler (gcj) !
...what has harmed Sun, and as remedy MS should also either repair or pay for repairs to the software bank developed which relies upon the faulty old MS java vm.
The bigger question, imho, is will the JVM be optional in the install? For example, when I install Win2k Server, I have to un-check the SMTP & FTP server (but at least have the option to not install them). This trivial install option should fix the problem for the MS J++ users.
And am I the only one that finds it hilarious that they are fighting so hard to control the desktop of people too lazy to change the default config (i.e. download JVM themselves)?
MS java has no fatal problems, except that it is just as slow as on any other operating system.
Everyone has to download the pluins and interpreters for other products, why should Java and Sun be so special?
If MS would have never included the JVM in the first place, then they wouldn't have to do jack right now. But becuase the once distributed it widely, but with distributed a deliberately non-standard altered version in viloation of their contract with Sun, than caused harm to Sun, they are saddled with now redistributing a proper version as punishment.
The federal government must sieze the assets of Microsoft in the name of the people.
From each according to his ability, to each according to their lack of ability to successfully compete in the free market!
Viva la revolution!
Technological progress has merely provided us with more efficient means for going backwards. -- Aldous Huxley
I agree that microsoft should at least be somehow punished for violating the agreement. But sun's attitude toward the situation is completely rhetoric. Why isn't Sun suing old linux distros for distributing an old version of JVM? Because they know that those distros have no potential except for those who use them and then they expect it to be crappy for the most part. They know microsoft is a threat to them with .NET and thats the reason why they waited until now to sue. Sun is just being a little cry baby like netscape, palm and Be conspiring to attack the competition through the legal system. they might as well form partnerships to compete with them, so they can have more resources and fight on all fronts as MS. tough luck to them for being stupid and cry babies.
Troll. Nobody is stupid enough to actually believe this drivel.
It's clear that so many of you have NO idea what this is about.
Sun and MS (sorry, M$) had an agreement where Microsoft would include a Java runtime with Windows. Only M$ made their own VM/runtime that was 'tweaked' and extended with extra functionality that ONLY worked under Windows.
Sun complained that this implementation was NOT Java, because it didn't match the Java specs. So they got a court to make MS remove their non-standard non-Java Java VM from Windows. But they didn't replace it with a fully-functionaly VM - they replaced it with nothing, contrary to their agreement with Sun.
So all Sun is doing is getting their agreement with MS enforced by a court. This has NOTHING to do with MS being a monopoly or Sun wanting their VM on Windows or anything like that. It comes down to MS creatively breaking a contract in order to kill Java (by nullifying it's main goal of platform-independence) and replace it with C#.
So please, no more posts about "But they wanted MS to remove IE, now they're adding Java?!?" or "This is okay because MS is a monopoly". Go start a thread elsewhere if you want to bitch about it, instead of crapping on about MS abusing their position as monopoly in every Slashdot article. Fuck off.
Oh, you mean Java by Sun Microsystems. We were shipping this nice house blend that makes our software smell nice. But if that's what you want, it'll take another 120 days to re-tool our equipment. Sorry about that.
A programmer is a machine for converting coffee into code.
The Court is not just arbitrarly (?sp) demanding MS put the Sun VM in, this is just part of a long running battle between Sun and MS over MS's bastardisation of the Java VM, thereby breaching the contract. If you break a contract you get punished, thats the way it works. So before the MS acolytes get up in arms how about doing a little research.
M$ creates incompatible VM to sabotage Suns java. Now their excuse for not distributing the real thing, once forced to it, is that their crippled VM has their customers in a lock-in? This entire problem is created by Microsoft and Microsoft tools *to* lock people in. If the courts give up and say "Uh ok, you've locked them in, so you can keep them." there's really no hope for the justice system.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
They deserve to get a kick in the pants at least on some issues. They have gotten a slap on the wrists, similar to a parking ticket. They are a CONVICTED MONOPOLY that is allowed to continue with relatively no changes. They have tried (usually successfully) to monopolize every industry they've entered. They had an agreement with Sun, but (similar to other companies they've screwed..) backed out to develop their own. That's like..here give me your proprietary super toy to play with for a week, and I'll give it back..only to make my own in 3 weeks.
MICROSOFT CAN SUCK MY WEANIE
Fucking parasites. It is about time. Late to discover the web (anyone remember when they had the FTP site?) and in a mad rush to 'be on top of it' they used anything and everything to gain momentum (vendor 'agreements', dumping, Java, IE to the OS, et al.)
They're followers who try to pass themselves off as leaders.
They deserve everything they get. It's called payback and it is about time.
I was running Sun's JVM on Linux and Windows, and was getting different behavior on both, even though I was using the same version of the JVM, both from Sun. On windows, mouse events were passed to the component, in linux, they are not. Stuff like that. Makes the old saying true: Write once, debug everywhere...
This isn't necessarily a good thing for sun in short term because it draws press attention to java's failure on the desktop.
However, if microsoft are forced to keep suns latest JRE as part of the standard windows install for a a few years (as the case drags on) then this will be a huge win for Sun.
java has arguably already won the enterprise-server-app war with the entire industry of players oracle,ibm,macromedia,... currently allied versus the beast and will probably win the handheld/mobile battle unless microsoft can defeat sonyErricson, nokia, sharp and palm... Java is currently a huge success everywhere but the desktop.
(aside)
Why has java failed on the desktop.... not just because of the redmond crew but because swing is 'kin huge bloated and considered slow. Swing will always be slow relative to naitive, but I love it because it stays ideologically pure to the spirit of write once run the same anywhere. Its fairly obvious that sun were looking at a 10 year roadmap when they released swing coz its gonna take that long before swing apps run imperceiveably slower than native apps (and no doubt will still look like shit by default). However, a machine shipping with XP today will be able to run swing applications ok.
(/aside)
Its only recent PC hardware that has began to run Swing at an acceptable speed. The timing of this ruling could make desktop java very compelling if it as seamlessly integrated into XP.2003 as it is in OSX
anyways i'm gonna carry on compiling my own p4 optimized sun j2SDK for Linux from source code using gcc3.. "export INSANE=true"woo hoo!
1.Check out photomessa. Its a free (as in beer, the toolkit is under Mozilla Public Licence), small and useful zoomable image browser
2.Install photomessa using java webstart (quick, easy, secure)
3.rethink your java speed prejudices
'Be the change you want to see in the world' - Al Gore
Microsoft should have been ordered to stop distributing their own VM--they are violating Sun's trademark and engaging in deceptive business practices. But I think the punishment beyond that should have been monetary.
if a .Net platform for Solaris ever comes out -- which it probably will.
Afterall, Sun has a monopoly on machines that can run Solaris. Sun would block any attempts and probably make the C# (MS) VM run slow if it created its own version of it.
This is just plain stupid. Its like watched 2 kids bicker back and forth and then tattle on their parents.
Sun has never published specs sufficient for compatible third party Java implementations. And, in fact, Microsoft's implementation is a derivative of Sun's.
In the end, Java fails to deliver an open platform and write-once-run-anywhere functionality--its just another big, proprietary system that happens to run on top of multiple operating systems. If Java did deliver on its promise of an open platform and cross-platform system, Sun didn't have to resort to legal means to get it onto Windows.
What the judge should have ordered is for Microsoft to stop shipping their broken version of Java. Anything else is Sun's responsibility.
I agree that this will be a problem for their corporate customers who depend the MS VM, but what about the reverse? I've personally written apps that work on Sun's vm but not Microsoft's. But I needed Swing, so I've had to break it to the clients that MOST PEOPLE will have to download and install Sun's Java.
NOW it's reversed - the inconvenience is just transferred to people who target MS's VM rather than the current one from Sun. It's hilarious that MS feels it's unfair because that's exactly what they did to Sun. Now if MS wants people to use their crap VM, they have to convince people to download it or install it from their Windows CD.
This has hamstrung Java because the current version from Sun is SO superior to what MS has been shipping - either their home-grown broken one OR the old one the court previously forced them to ship.
Java developers should be rejoicing that they can now write quality apps that make use of the far superior, newer versions of Java and have an even chance of it working on a vanilla Windows install.
Textbooks and Open Educational Resources
sun: MS - you can't legally include java without paying us royalties. We're gonna sue you.
ms: OK. We'll drop java support in our new OS.
sun: You can't do that! We're gonna sue you to force you to include our java in your newest OS.
what a bunch of pussies!
Ok.. Sun has now made Java a virtual OS, and virtual OS'es CAN be competitors to Windows.
I do understand why Microsoft stopped supporting it. It can be compared to that Red Hat demands that Red Hat using should be included in Windows (Linux can be virtually installed using VMware (.com) ).
I really do not understand why Sun should force its way into Windows, while so many others have not.
Same with Sun - they had to either get MS to completely abandon any fake Java implemetation, or to ship theirs, which is what happened.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
Obviously you don't develop java or rely on standards(but not M$) complient apps. Many do not (specifically fot the reasons m$ is being puished) but some do. Anyway TRO is the closest thing since we're talikng about Sun's rights
What happens if Microsoft doesn't ship Java in 120 days? Another slap on the wrist and a "You've been a very naughty company!"? I want to see jail time for top level exeutives.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
yawn. its not so much that everyone here is pro java - its that we collectively hate the beast. Microsoft has bullied, killed good tech stuff, and illegally leveraged their desktop monopoly. Although MS got off light on the anti-trust, i am hoping to sit back and watch the beast die from a thousand cuts. This is probably the first cut. pull up a chair, put your feet up and pass the popcorn....
'Be the change you want to see in the world' - Al Gore
Sorry chaps, don't get your hopes up. MS will appeal this decision. Then if (when?) they lose the appeal, they'll appeal again and again and again until it reaches the Supreme Court or whatever the head honcho court in the US is. It'll take years and years and in the meantime there'll be no Java on XP and its successors and by the time the case is resolved it won't matter anyway.
I haven't got my hopes up on this one. Sorry.
Why would anyone want to use a text editor that is not vi?
The poster said he has to support an app that is written to "real" Java, and on Windows systems the poster has to walk users through downloading and installing a "real" JVM (from Sun)because MS's is garbage.
Actually, in previous stages of this case Sun got an order forbidding MS from including Java because MS was bastardizing it (with "Java Foundation Classes" wrappers for MFC). Then they "settled" and agreed to let MS include Java, but only version 1.1.3. This was when the current version was 1.3 at least. So the most recent MS JVM is at least four years behind the times.
The problem with MS'Java is not that it isn't real Java, but that it's woefully outdated. Therefore, users can only run old-style Java software, which is severely limited compared to what can be done with Java today.
A good analogy would be some imaginary operating system promising Windows compatibility, but when you actually try it, you find it only supports Windows up to 3.1. Well Windows has changed an awful lot since then, and Java has changed similarly between 1.1 and 1.3/1.4.
This is news because they are supposed to do this and they are so ordered, but we know how Microsoft works. They aren't going to do it. They will claim it's impossible or what they will do will not work.
It's the Microsoft way. They are arrogant bastards and need to be broken up. It's that simple. Nothing that allows them any freedom of choice will result in anything good for the public.
(Damn, am I really that bitter?)
Seems like if the latest JVM becomes the standard, a lot of apps written for the older broken JVMs will have to be updated.
Yahoo chat was always my first pick when I needed an example of a broken java app. Maybe they'll fix it now.
That's a bullshit excuse, and should be very easy to get to the bottom of. Programming isn't alchemy -- software is made with known tools and building blocks that perform in a known way. So exactly which packages, classes, etc., were used in creating software that runs only on MS' VM? This information can be gotten by calling programmer witnesses, who could testify to this without giving away any important information about the software they wrote, or even MS' bad Java. And as far as I'm concerned, this would be just more evidence that MS tried to foil Java with its usual "embrace and extend" skullduggery.
Don't believe everything you read. I'm a Java programmer, and in my experience this kind of thing is *freakishly* rare. JVMs are backward compatible, except for the odd bug or two, unless some kind of weird Microsoft extension has been used (which is also pretty rare).
and complie full J2SE 1.4.1 SDK for linux using gcc3
'Be the change you want to see in the world' - Al Gore
My company uses plugins that rely on Microsoft's bastardized Virual Machines. My question is this: What are we as a company going to have to do to get compatible with Sun's Version of Java? Are each of our vendors (Ariba,Plan View, etc.) going to have to come up with patches to their systems to allow clients with Sun's VM to connect. Not only that, but will we not also have to push this new compatible VM to all of our desktop systems?
Sean----Trolling for info. It would be appreciated.
Microsoft already ships Java in Win XP SP1 via Windows Update.
Personally, I'd rather Windoze did not ship with Java, that way the system is not violated by M$ and I can customise my own Java installation. However, thats only for my personal benefit.
On a global level, I think M$ need a good kick up the ass. They act as if they have a right to be in the position they're in, not act as though it's a privelege. Go Sun!
Read your Sun vs M$ history stupid. M$ renegged on a contract, now they are being forced to honour it. It is not a precedent of the sort you imply.
I will as soon as I find a bank that does support SUN Java and have a comparable online solution
Bank of America's online banking doesn't need java at all. Seems to be written all in Cold Fusion and all programming is server-side. I access my account just fine with Mozilla 1.2.1
the irony of using a java applet to watch microsofts share price fall
'Be the change you want to see in the world' - Al Gore
because it's been said before -
It's because of a breach of contract with Sun. Microsoft never had any contract with Netscape, AOL or Opera.
Don't be so naive.
Sun's version of Java has terrible performance under Windows. Will we be able to uninstall it, and download and install the MS version, or is the govt. mandating that we can only run Sun Java under Windows from now on?
Vote for Pedro
Gator didn't have an agreement with MS, moron.
You think Sun just begged there way in?
This would be just like the judge ording Chevy to ship with Ford parts...
Jim
"Life is art...Paint your destiny"
Yes .Not is Dead
(hey, i'm just a simple troll, all modded down off your radar, but I've read all 423 posts so here are my questions:)
.NET validate and endorse the Java model sun proposed many many years ago.
.NET
.NET also anti-competitive with linux since it rules out the penguin - so who would sue for Linux: linus himself? red hat, FSF... perhaps mandrake would be able to demonstrate financial harm best.
1.doesn't the very existance of
2.why would anyone choose to limit themselves to developing for a single platform, especially why rule out linux as a platform by using
3.isn't
(anyways i'm like a total troll apparently, so you should ignore me - certainly don't feed me - good night all, thanks in advance)
Quit Slashdot Today!
Hopefully there will be a way to disable sun-java even if they put it into SP2.
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/java/contractfa q.asp
Q. Is Microsoft required to ship JNI [Java Native Interface]?
There is no provision in the contract that requires Microsoft to ship JNI.
Q. Can Microsoft make changes to the licensed technology?
Section 2.1(a) describes Microsoft's irrevocable rights to modify and adapt the licensed technology. Section 2.8(d) only restricts changes to the names of certain public classes; it does not affect Microsoft's right to add methods and fields to Java classes.
The actual license agreement.
Our corp of 25,000 users has Sun's Netscape Portal 4.1 which uses Microsoft's old Java. Sun's Java 'breaks' all the apps. We are rolling out XP with the MS Java and this will definitely break the rollout.
I've had enough of the Flashplayer comparisons already.
There was a contract to distribute Java.
Microsoft didn't comply, they were taken to court
C++ is far older. C is ancient. Guess we should line up all the C/C++/Perl programmers and shoot them for continuing to use such dinosaurs.
goes all [sun's] competition... as long as its not microsoft's own java implementation right? right? wrong. wrong. right? right? wrong. wrong. wrong.
I know you are psychotic, but please make an effort.
With version 1.4, the Sun JRE supports applet caching. It caches classes, jars, and all associated sound and image files. For Java sites that you visit regularly (e.g., chat sites), Java starts up in a flash! The difference in the Java experience is stunning. It makes you feel like you have cable when you're on 56k. Too bad it's much too late to salvage Java's image in the minds of most end users.
So, Sun decides to do a little backflip and makes Solaris a component of Java. Doesn't make sense does it? Well, with software, you can justify anything. And then you will see Sun attempt to force Microsoft to ship Solaris on the grounds that it is part of Java. And then Sun decides to force Solaris to run only on Sparc hardware again. And then Sun will attempt to force Microsoft to port Windows to Sparc. And then they partner with Oracle and make the Oracle database itself part of Java. And then they attempt to force Microsoft to bundle Oracle with every copy.
Where does it end? This ruling needs serious limitations if it wants to prevent abuse from Sun and its anti-MS partners.
> I dont need or want java on my machines.
But probably you don't want to embrace anyone's monopoly including Microsoft, do you? You might not NEED Java, but when you start listing things that you want in this society, you have a set of rules, and those rules would bring you Java. Java might not do for you, but things that you get because of lawsuits like this would probably do some good for you. For example, if AT&T wasn't found guilty in 70s, we wouldn't be seeing the internet today.
I presonally don't want java at all. I don't like it one bit (and I have experience developing with Java since 1997). I don't see why one company should be forced to include one other companys product. Shouldn't MacOS X be forced to ship with Java then as well? And shouldn't MacOS X and Solaris be shipped with .NET?
.doc, etc). Another is to make sure that all computers shipped from the large manufacturers include Windows (XP Home edition non the less, which is a joke compared to the Professional version). If I buy a laptop I want to decide if I want to put Gentoo or XP professional on it. Especially if I already have an XP license.
Suns venegance trip is getting out of hand, and the real reason why M$ should be forced to change are lost. It is not about some browser or Java, it is about M$ making sure they don't loose their lead in unfair ways. A typical one is to do their best to tie people up in data formats they control (WMA,
Btw, Linux is a better alternative than Solaris.
Seeing as SP1 puts it on there even if Sun Java is already present. From which point onwards you are prompted to download critical updates for MS Java, even though it's never used.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
Or maybe Microsoft has to include Java in order to prolong their stay in the market -- either MS-Windows is dropping MS-.Net or MS-.Net is dropping MS-Windows.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Now, does it look like java to you ? They even tell it's not portable.
You can also download their SDK, it comes with documentation afaik, have a look at it.
blah
It seems MS have several options here:
1. Just ship suns VM and break apps that rely on the MS VM.
2. Ship the MS VM AND the sun VM and allow the end user to choose which is active in the browser (like the Java PlugIn does).
3. Add the MS "extensions" to the Sun VM so MS "Java" apps/applets work with that or can at least be easily ported.
Options 2 and 3 are obviously best for their customers, but both imply continued investment in Java by Microsoft, which I'm sure pleases them immensely (that was irony by the way).
didn't Microsoft pay Sun a couple million for breaching the contract and/or to end the contract? I do know that MS did pay Sun for something.
Get a REAL web tool you fucking moron, not one that uses a language for dumbasses..
April 20, 1998 Java Plug-inTM product ships
Java plug-in allows to run "real Java" compatible applets. I myself used it in 2001 with IE.
>>Until about 3 years ago the ONLY JVM on Windows was MSJVM, officially licenced from Sun Micro.
Oh, please, can you back it up with facts?
Because I already have it. ;-)
First we are not talking about ISP but OS. You can not compare AOL to MS. Sorry but today, you can surft without AOL (or should you?), but you can not have a PC without windows ! This is facts !
.net ! Here i can read answer, but .net was defined under standard, blah blah blah. Not at all, .net is not define under any standard, the straight core of the platform was define but not the API, not the exntension, not the behaviour, and not the improvement ... in a word, MS can do whatever they want with .net and break whatever compatibility they need for various reasons.
.net platform.
.net shouting this is a major revolution. But, people who were using Visual J++ asked "where so?". Now, few month later people with good skills generally agreed to say that .net platform is nothing more that a Java platform clone. Of course it has things little different, but who said a clone is a replicated stuff ?
.net platform.
;)
...
.net product you are de-facto force to use the whole .net suite of products. This is the same thing as if when i get a Sun JavaVM i should use the whole SunONE suite ! Or when i get an IBM JAvaVM i had to use all the websphere stuffs.
;)
... and this is a good decision made by the US justice. I do really hope that the MS massive lobby will not manage as they did before to break this decision: this is a unique chance for us to gain some coding confort on the web !
What MS was planning is replace a monopoly (Windows) by a new one :
Do never forget, a thing : MS was a Java master 4 years ago (their VM and IDE were the best at those time, API enable to fully control the OS) , they left the place as soon as they realized that they can not intruduce specific feature (some would say, incompatibilities) without beeing sued for standard breach.
This episode had let MS starting the project named "cool" that ends 3 years later with the shipping of the
MS has introduced
Now, this statement endanger the dessin MS has figure out. If this happen, it should simply sign the "dead act" for the
About your point, this is not the fact that MS and Sun are competitors : everybody knows that the big guy in Java are IBM and a few others. Look at the J2SE sources, and look the @author sign
The main difference here is that when talking Java you've got choice. You can chose your provider : IBM, BEA, Borland, Oracle,
Most of the Java users never deal with Sun (this is one of their problem), but with others ! When using a
About your statement "why do not download": just because lots of people can not download or setup softwares on their desktops because of administration restriction (security stuffs) ! Some other do not because they have a dog slow access, few other because thei fear to setup a thing when prompted on the web! This are a facts i have dailly.
If the world on internet was only full of well-skilled private users with no NAT and uptodate browsers this would be heaven on earth
But we are in a real world
-ART
I now have a judge that orders me to install shit on my system I couldn't care to install if *I* had a *CHOICE*.
OR did all you retarded people forget about that? It's a fucken free country and If I dont WANT to install java.. I shouldn't be forced to have it.
Just because a corporation is a monopoly doesn't mean they should be forced to distribute other corporation's products.
What about the added cost of recreating all the software CDs/DVDs?
Updating websites with Java driver information and troubleshooting?
Or the legal cost of re-drafting the EULA and other docs to include MS protection from Java security holes?
Are we going to force AOL to start shipping HotJava with their AOL CDs because they own Netscape?
Or as someone said below... CLR with Solaris? What about MSSQL ODBC drivers? DDE? OLEDB? COM? DCOM? COM+?
MS -does- make a version of IE for Solaris, shouldn't SUN now have to package that software?
I am not an MS monopoly supporter, but I think SUN is just being silly.
Does Microsoft's right to decide how they architect their OS software (to include Sun Java or not) impede the right of other vendors to sell their wares?
Microsoft has monopoly power when it comes to the consumer and small/business OS market. If Microsoft makes it purposely difficult to operate another vendor's software (on Windows) then they should be made to play fair.
Having said that, I don't believe that forcing Microsoft to ship their software with Sun's Java included will solve this problem. Rather it is a punishment, much as a spanking or fine. To solve this problem of monopolization (as evidenced by Microsoft), the computing industry should develop the following requirements for all OS offerings. A standard API set (much like the standard method for interpreting keyboards, mice, svga, etc...) into the OS system should be established. All vendor products would communicate with the OS via an Industry Standardized API, rather than the current and sometimes proprietary interfaces. This API would include video, audio, input, output, and other peripheral controls. The vendor software such as "MS Office", "Oracle", "Photoshop", etc... would work on any OS.
USB, FireWire, SCSI, IDE, PCI, SVGA, etc... would all go away. The Industry Standardized APIs would replace them with a single system. There would be fewer barriers to competition (all competitors would utilize the same playing field rather than playing only in SCSI or IDE for example) in that all hardware and software vendors would be required to offer their product through a standard API.
Sure, this isn't a perfect solution either, but I think it would solve more problems than it created. New computer hardware systems and new software would be platform independent (like Java). You could kind of use Java as an example. Their JVM could be construed as their standard API to execute a Java program (only which JVM you use depends on your OS). The old stuff (USB, FireWire, SCSI, IDE, etc...) would be phased out like an old OS. All new components and systems must be manufactured with the standard API. An academic consortium would make up the body of the Standards group and develop the standardized API. New legislation would force the industry groups to include the new API and only that API (no proprietary formats allowed) in their hardware/software. Would this slow technological breakthru and development? It is possible, but I would doubt it. The current various standards only serve make it more difficult to develop new software (how, what, and who do you support?) and hardware. There are too many choices, standards, and formats to choose from and more isn't always better. After all, isn't that the allure of Java and XML?
To know is to have knowledge....to understand is to be enlightened.
Now... When WinXp was shipped without Java there was an hell in the newsgroups because MS wasn't shipping Java with the SO (if you wanted it, you had to download as an "update") (and so MS was letting Java die on his own). Now MS has inserted Java in the SP1 and there is an hell because the MS Java is very old (1.1.4 if I remember well). But if I remember well, it was Sun that decided that MS could not change their Java VM (so "killing" a "competitor").
That latest VM episode was with the very latest JVM DLed from sun itself on Dec 25 2002. That's what I meant about "It's still crappy after 4 years". I admit that their installer and general "user experience" with the installation of the JVM and use for running java files has improved greately. Not having to manually set path variables (what a concept!) was nice. But as soon as I started using it, all the same old horrors were still there.
Contrary to popular belief, coding is not all free blow-jobs and beer. Those things cost MONEY!
As Microsoft has pointed out Flash, Shockwave, Real... had no problems getting people to download their plugins. If the customer base had wanted Java and if Sun had done a good job in creating a plug in they could have distributed it the same way that Flash, et al. did.
What Sun wanted however was for Microsoft to do the heavy lifting of creating a fast x86 Java for I.E. Microsoft created a fast x86 Java for I.E. that also was fully a member of Visual Studio (i.e. it could program to the entire Windows API). This isn't bad faith on Microsoft's part but rather taking two aspects of Java:
a) Java as a programming language
b) Java as a system independent bytecode
and showing the natural conflict between them. Sun decided (b) was much more important than (a). Microsoft agreed to not ship any Java and give Sun total control. But Sun knows that unlike Flash Java isn't popular with browser customers.
Frankly I don't think its Microsoft's fault. Netscape (which is where the reputation came from) was using Sun's JVM.
As I've said above: Flash, Shockwave, Real... have no problem keeping people current with their pluggin. You do what they do, "requires Java 1.4" and when click on it they get sent to Sun / Microsoft for the download.
If you are going to be arguing from this Libertarian standpoint then one of the 3/4 functions of government is the enforcement of contracts. Which is what the court is doing in this case. Microsoft violated a contract and caused damage.
As for the comment below regarding Bayor; I remember seeing an advertisement from Bayor from 1904 listing their 3 products: Aspirin (headache), Heroin (cough) and something for skin problems. Its not just a story (though I'm not sure that the word Heroin means the same thing today it did in 1904).
Too bad SUN isnt even 1/2 as concerned about getting java pushed on the BSD platform as they are about windows or linux..
Considering all the server installs of BSD out there, you would think they would try a *little* harder.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Agreed. They applications can't call each other. You are running two entirely seperate JVMs using two entirely different sets of libraries.
But I really don't see how that is so terrible. Worse comes to worse you end up with just short of twice the disk space usage for the same app.
My point is not that the situation is ideal (it isn't) but rather that its not very hard to get around (I infact do exactly what I'm describing here but only worse since I use 3 different sun javas to resolve some incompatabilities).