It was the font that the New York Times commissioned to make their paper stand out.
Times of London. Nice try, tho. The New York Times doesn't even use Times. They use Imperial for their body type and a custom-designed Cheltenham for headlines and decks.
And no, if you'd been paying attention you'd know that I'm saying that these memos were typeset in not just any Times but in Microsoft Times New Roman. Positively identified by a forensic documents expert around 3:00 EDT today and subsequently confirmed by...hell, anybody with a copy of Word.
The superscript "th" was available as a custom-ordered type ball. It cost a fortune, and would not have been found in a Texas Air National Guard secretary's typewriter.
the question is does was there are Selectric type ball with a closed 4, superscripted th and otherwise Times Roman characters?
Jesus, dude, I'm really just guess what you mean here. Are you asking wether there were Selectric type balls with Times New Roman on them? The answer is no. The type balls available were: Advocate, Bookface Academic 72, Delegate, Orator, Courier 72, Pica 72, Prestige Pica 72, Adjutant, Artisan 12, Courier 12 Italic, Scribe, Prestige Elite, Courier 12, Elite 72, Letter Gothic. Those are all 10- or 12-pitch fixed-width typefaces.
From what understand it was used in 1932 by The Times of London newspaper.
I'm reasonably sure I'm right that Microsoft Times New Roman wasn't around in 1932.;-) Nor was it around in 1984, the last year that these documents could possibly have been produced.
How exactly does the B-2 Spirit contribute to winning the war on terror?
We used 'em to bomb terrorist camps in Afghanistan and Iraq. Next time we find a terrorist camp that we can't shut down through diplomacy or economic means, we'll use 'em again.
The range and payload capacity of the B-2, combined with the fact that it can carry satellite-guided JDAM precision munitions, means that we can put ordinance on any given square meter of the planet within a small-but-highly-classified number of hours. Which is an important capability to have.
Iraq such an air defense, but it didn't have the terrorist
Right. You just keep believing that, Sparky.
Mind linking to coverage of the speech where Kerry said, and you quote, "I served in Vietnam! You can't criticize me!"?
I'm not Google. But the phrase you're looking for is, "I will not have my commitment to defend this country questioned by those who refused to serve when they could have." Cincinnati, Ohio, Sept. 8, 2004.
Sigh. You're not paying attention. There are lots of implementations, if you prefer that word, of Times New Roman out there. Microsoft's is the one that was used in these memos, as identified positively this morning by forensic expert Dr. Philip Bouffard.
When was Microsoft Times New Roman invented, smarty-pants?
If you want to chastise me for not being sufficiently specific, mea culpa.
You don't know the value of an exclusive. The ad revenues for last night's "60 Minutes II" were over the top.
for them to make up documents like this would be profoundly stupid
It was profoundly stupid for Dan Rather to get into a shouting match with the sitting vice president of the United States on live television, too. But he did it, in 1988.
especially since the documents themselves do not really add a whole lot to the case already made in the Ben Barnes interview
Ah, but that's where you have to have been paying attention. Ben Barnes made these exact same claims in 1999, when then-Governor Bush was running for president. His claim was widely debunked. It never even really broke as a story because it never held water to begin with. He alleged that he pulled strings while he was Lt. Gov. of Texas, for instance, but when Bush was trying to get into the TANG Barnes was in Switzerland as UN general envoy to Geneva. That kind of thing.
The reason Barnes is in the news today is because he's got this shit-hot new documentary evidence. Except the evidence turns out to be forged.
the interview itself, which seems to have settled the question about whether Bush pulled strings to avoid military service
Except that Barnes has nothing at all to back up his claims except a set of forged memos with a dead lieutenant colonel's name on them.
Barnes was outed as a liar by both the pundits and the press in 1999. He's back with forged documents. What do you think?
Anyway, as I've said elsewhere, I think this is all a distraction
Agreed. Blame the Democrats who decided to spam the press with the National Guard story again when their candidate took a nosedive in the polls.
I'm saying that the whipped-it-out-in-Word theory doesn't hold up.
A printed copy of the memo whipped out in Word matches the PDF supplied by CBS News perfectly, once you do things like straighten it to compensate for the distressed look of the CBS News PDFs.
It doesn't just hold up, Daniel. It's a fucking out-of-the-park home run.
Your comments about what was and was not possible for typewriters of the time have already been refuted by many other posters
Simply untrue. Be honest. Did you click ONE LINK in the story? Did you read any of the THOUSANDS OF WORDS that have been written about 1970s and 1980s desktop typesetting technology in the past nine hours? Do you know THE FIRST THING about this story? Or are you just coming in here and spewing "WE HATES BUSHIE SO MUCH" all over everybody?
I will, however, point out that your belief that TNR is a product of the Eighties
TNR? The New Republic? OH! Times New Roman.
Okay, smart guy. You tell me when Microsoft Times New Roman was created.
Yes, because remember kiddies, Republicans are a hive-mind. There's just one Republican opinion on anything, and any time any Republican says anything all other Republicans must necessarily believe and agree with it.
Dumbass.
Let's see if we can be clear on this, okay? The Bush campaign has no complaint with Senator Kerry over his service in Vietnam. Various representatives of the campaign including the president and the vice president have said this on the record more times than I can count.
Many veterans of the Vietnam war, however, disagree. They have a very serious problem with some things Senator Kerry did while in Vietnam and some things that he said --and a book that he wrote, called "The New Soldier" -- when he came back.
But you're happy to sit there and say that these veterans, including a retired rear admiral, are just puppets of a campaign that has repeatedly distanced itself from them.
You're completely off your meds, do you realize that?
The President answers questions several times every day, through his press secretary. There's a gaggle early in the morning and then a briefing during the day. Every single day of the year.
CBS News claims that they consulted one document expert, who remains unidentified. While Dr. Philip Bouffard, widely recognized expert in the field of forensic document identification, is quoted on INDC Journal as saying that he's "90% sure" these documents are forgeries.
Your main point is correct: If these documents are outside forgeries, then CBS News deserves merely to be tortured for their negligence, not burned at the stake.
But the possibility exists that these forgeries were manufactured by CBS News. And that possibility is way too scary to dismiss out of hand.
So wait a minute. You're suggesting that despite the fact that this memo allegedly written in 1972/73 includes proportional letterspacing (very rare at the time), a font that didn't exist at that time and kerning which was mechanically impossible for a typewriter or desktop typesetting system of that era, it's not forged because the superscript in the screen-shot is two points off of the superscript in the PDF?
Actually the headline would read, "Dead person miraculously signs memo written twenty years post mortem."
These memos could not have been put to paper in 1972 or 1973, when they are alleged to have been written. Nor could they have been put to paper in 1984, the year of Lt. Col. Killian's death.
Combine that with the fact that the signatures don't even match, and it looks pretty bad all around for CBS News.
You're talking about Senator Kerry, right? The guy who hasn't answered a reporter's question for one month and eight days now?
The thing about these allegations is that they're old news. They were trotted out in 1999, when Ben Barnes was under investigation as part of a lottery scandal. They were widely debunked then, even by left-leaning papers like the Los Angeles Times. The reason these allegations are in the news today is because there's new documentary evidence...which turns out to have been faked.
The font used in these documents isn't Times Roman. It's Times New Roman, a very specific variation on Times Roman. Compare the numeral "4" in Times Roman and Times New Roman.
And Times New Roman didn't exist until after 1984. The alleged author and signer of these memos died in 1984.
Not "IBM Electric." "IBM Executive." The IBM Executive and the IBM Composer were the only typewriters that could produce variable-pitch type in 1973. But neither of them could produce superscript "th" in smaller type. They lacked that character.
And neither of them had the Times New Roman font that these memos were typeset in. That font didn't exist in 1973. It also didn't exist in 1984, when the man who allegedly wrote and signed these memos died.
The IBM Executive series of typewriters did not have a "th" key. Nor did it have a curly quote mark as seen in these memos. Nor did it have the distinctive number 4 as seen in these memos.
Re:casualties of war
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And that's just the 20th Century, where almost 40% of elected executives were legislators. That doesn't even count legislators elected to executive as vice president.
Um. Yeah, it does, you dumbass. LBJ, Nixon, 41, Truman, were all vice presidents.
I didn't read any more. What possible statements of worth could follow that?
You're confusing horizontal and vertical lines. In TV jargon a line is a horizontal pixel. Counting from left to right, there are 720 lines in a TV picture. Some are lost to overscan, but all contain picture data.
Scan lines are different. Counting from the top of the picture to the bottom, there are 486 scan lines, some of which contain vertical blanking, CC, VITC and so on.
Blah blah blah. See why we don't elect legislators to the executive branch?
That combines capping liability for malpractice at an arbitrarily small amount
The amount proposed is $250,000 for non-economic damages (pain and suffering, etc.) and no limit for economic damages (recovering lost wages including future lost wages due to permanent disability and so on). But it's just a suggestion from the Bush administration. What would you prefer the limit to be?
If you say "no limit," you lose.
with continuing the pharmaceutical corporation entitlements passed last year by fraud.
Please stop lifting your talking points from the Democratic Underground.
You remember, the lies enforced by threatening the auditor with firing (and worse) if he divulged the true projections?
Yes, yes, and Hillary Clinton murdered Vince Foster. Any more wild-eyed conspiracy theories completely unrelated to the facts you wanna throw out there?
Saudi government sponsorship of at least two of the terrorists who planebombed the World Trade Center
Bzzt. There was no Saudi government sponsorship. You're spinning off into Michael Moore territory now.
Ask yourself whether your vice president should be making deals with the Saudis to lower gas prices
A false rumor.
but would amend the Constitution to reduce some citizens' rights for the first time
Confused again. You seem to think that (1) the proposed amendment would prevent gay people from marrying or that (2) same-sex marriage is a thing. Gay people can marry just like anybody else can: boy-girl, boy-girl. And same-sex marriage is a myth. It's never been an institution recognized by law. So no, the proposed amendment would not, if passed, "reduce some citizens' rights."
And even if it did..."for the first time?" Just what the fuck do you think laws are? They're abridgments of our rights! You make it sound like the whole notion is entirely new to you.
Try to remember that there's still hope for the truth
I try, but when you spread memes made up out of whole cloth by people who have a very loose relationship with the truth, it's hard.
Re:And this is an issue because?
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Um. They did at the time. Between 1993 and 1999, real GDP growth dropped from 3.4% per year to 2.3% per year, causing tax revenues (among other things) to fall significantly short of CBO projections.
What do you think happened to that multitrillion-dollar surplus that was projected way back when? You don't seriously think that Bush pissed it away in his first two weeks in office, do you?
There's a 3-4 year lag between changes in tax policy and large-scale economic effects. We're just now starting to see the effects of the Bush cuts. If Kerry were inaugurated in January and passed his tax hikes a month later, we'd probably see very little effect in the 2005 GDP figures, but a significant effect in the 2007 GDP figures.
unless tv has lower resolution than broadcast quality
All consumer TV's have lower resolution than broadcast quality. If you buy a really expensive NTSC TV, it might be able to resolve 600 lines. The NTSC signal is comprised of 720 lines.
In HD, it's even more drastic. A really expensive HD set might resolve 800 lines of a 1,920-line picture.
A broadcast monitor that can resolve 1,000 lines costs $40,000.
Slashdot Mirror
It was the font that the New York Times commissioned to make their paper stand out.
...hell, anybody with a copy of Word.
Times of London. Nice try, tho. The New York Times doesn't even use Times. They use Imperial for their body type and a custom-designed Cheltenham for headlines and decks.
And no, if you'd been paying attention you'd know that I'm saying that these memos were typeset in not just any Times but in Microsoft Times New Roman. Positively identified by a forensic documents expert around 3:00 EDT today and subsequently confirmed by
some models of which did have superscripted th
The superscript "th" was available as a custom-ordered type ball. It cost a fortune, and would not have been found in a Texas Air National Guard secretary's typewriter.
the question is does was there are Selectric type ball with a closed 4, superscripted th and otherwise Times Roman characters?
Jesus, dude, I'm really just guess what you mean here. Are you asking wether there were Selectric type balls with Times New Roman on them? The answer is no. The type balls available were: Advocate, Bookface Academic 72, Delegate, Orator, Courier 72, Pica 72, Prestige Pica 72, Adjutant, Artisan 12, Courier 12 Italic, Scribe, Prestige Elite, Courier 12, Elite 72, Letter Gothic. Those are all 10- or 12-pitch fixed-width typefaces.
You're absolutely right. I should have said that Kerry hasn't answered any non-carefully-vetted questions in one month and eight days.
From what understand it was used in 1932 by The Times of London newspaper.
;-) Nor was it around in 1984, the last year that these documents could possibly have been produced.
I'm reasonably sure I'm right that Microsoft Times New Roman wasn't around in 1932.
I live to serve.
How exactly does the B-2 Spirit contribute to winning the war on terror?
We used 'em to bomb terrorist camps in Afghanistan and Iraq. Next time we find a terrorist camp that we can't shut down through diplomacy or economic means, we'll use 'em again.
The range and payload capacity of the B-2, combined with the fact that it can carry satellite-guided JDAM precision munitions, means that we can put ordinance on any given square meter of the planet within a small-but-highly-classified number of hours. Which is an important capability to have.
Iraq such an air defense, but it didn't have the terrorist
Right. You just keep believing that, Sparky.
Mind linking to coverage of the speech where Kerry said, and you quote, "I served in Vietnam! You can't criticize me!"?
I'm not Google. But the phrase you're looking for is, "I will not have my commitment to defend this country questioned by those who refused to serve when they could have." Cincinnati, Ohio, Sept. 8, 2004.
Sigh. You're not paying attention. There are lots of implementations, if you prefer that word, of Times New Roman out there. Microsoft's is the one that was used in these memos, as identified positively this morning by forensic expert Dr. Philip Bouffard.
When was Microsoft Times New Roman invented, smarty-pants?
If you want to chastise me for not being sufficiently specific, mea culpa.
CBS has nothing to gain from such a forgery
You don't know the value of an exclusive. The ad revenues for last night's "60 Minutes II" were over the top.
for them to make up documents like this would be profoundly stupid
It was profoundly stupid for Dan Rather to get into a shouting match with the sitting vice president of the United States on live television, too. But he did it, in 1988.
especially since the documents themselves do not really add a whole lot to the case already made in the Ben Barnes interview
Ah, but that's where you have to have been paying attention. Ben Barnes made these exact same claims in 1999, when then-Governor Bush was running for president. His claim was widely debunked. It never even really broke as a story because it never held water to begin with. He alleged that he pulled strings while he was Lt. Gov. of Texas, for instance, but when Bush was trying to get into the TANG Barnes was in Switzerland as UN general envoy to Geneva. That kind of thing.
The reason Barnes is in the news today is because he's got this shit-hot new documentary evidence. Except the evidence turns out to be forged.
the interview itself, which seems to have settled the question about whether Bush pulled strings to avoid military service
Except that Barnes has nothing at all to back up his claims except a set of forged memos with a dead lieutenant colonel's name on them.
Barnes was outed as a liar by both the pundits and the press in 1999. He's back with forged documents. What do you think?
Anyway, as I've said elsewhere, I think this is all a distraction
Agreed. Blame the Democrats who decided to spam the press with the National Guard story again when their candidate took a nosedive in the polls.
I'm saying that the whipped-it-out-in-Word theory doesn't hold up.
A printed copy of the memo whipped out in Word matches the PDF supplied by CBS News perfectly, once you do things like straighten it to compensate for the distressed look of the CBS News PDFs.
It doesn't just hold up, Daniel. It's a fucking out-of-the-park home run.
Your comments about what was and was not possible for typewriters of the time have already been refuted by many other posters
Simply untrue. Be honest. Did you click ONE LINK in the story? Did you read any of the THOUSANDS OF WORDS that have been written about 1970s and 1980s desktop typesetting technology in the past nine hours? Do you know THE FIRST THING about this story? Or are you just coming in here and spewing "WE HATES BUSHIE SO MUCH" all over everybody?
I will, however, point out that your belief that TNR is a product of the Eighties
TNR? The New Republic? OH! Times New Roman.
Okay, smart guy. You tell me when Microsoft Times New Roman was created.
Yes, because remember kiddies, Republicans are a hive-mind. There's just one Republican opinion on anything, and any time any Republican says anything all other Republicans must necessarily believe and agree with it.
Dumbass.
Let's see if we can be clear on this, okay? The Bush campaign has no complaint with Senator Kerry over his service in Vietnam. Various representatives of the campaign including the president and the vice president have said this on the record more times than I can count.
Many veterans of the Vietnam war, however, disagree. They have a very serious problem with some things Senator Kerry did while in Vietnam and some things that he said --and a book that he wrote, called "The New Soldier" -- when he came back.
But you're happy to sit there and say that these veterans, including a retired rear admiral, are just puppets of a campaign that has repeatedly distanced itself from them.
You're completely off your meds, do you realize that?
The President answers questions several times every day, through his press secretary. There's a gaggle early in the morning and then a briefing during the day. Every single day of the year.
CBS did consult documents experts
CBS News claims that they consulted one document expert, who remains unidentified. While Dr. Philip Bouffard, widely recognized expert in the field of forensic document identification, is quoted on INDC Journal as saying that he's "90% sure" these documents are forgeries.
Your main point is correct: If these documents are outside forgeries, then CBS News deserves merely to be tortured for their negligence, not burned at the stake.
But the possibility exists that these forgeries were manufactured by CBS News. And that possibility is way too scary to dismiss out of hand.
So wait a minute. You're suggesting that despite the fact that this memo allegedly written in 1972/73 includes proportional letterspacing (very rare at the time), a font that didn't exist at that time and kerning which was mechanically impossible for a typewriter or desktop typesetting system of that era, it's not forged because the superscript in the screen-shot is two points off of the superscript in the PDF?
Ain't just a river in Egypt, y'all.
In other news. Old people die.
Actually the headline would read, "Dead person miraculously signs memo written twenty years post mortem."
These memos could not have been put to paper in 1972 or 1973, when they are alleged to have been written. Nor could they have been put to paper in 1984, the year of Lt. Col. Killian's death.
Combine that with the fact that the signatures don't even match, and it looks pretty bad all around for CBS News.
The man doesn't even take questions.
...which turns out to have been faked.
You're talking about Senator Kerry, right? The guy who hasn't answered a reporter's question for one month and eight days now?
The thing about these allegations is that they're old news. They were trotted out in 1999, when Ben Barnes was under investigation as part of a lottery scandal. They were widely debunked then, even by left-leaning papers like the Los Angeles Times. The reason these allegations are in the news today is because there's new documentary evidence
The font used in these documents isn't Times Roman. It's Times New Roman, a very specific variation on Times Roman. Compare the numeral "4" in Times Roman and Times New Roman.
And Times New Roman didn't exist until after 1984. The alleged author and signer of these memos died in 1984.
Not "IBM Electric." "IBM Executive." The IBM Executive and the IBM Composer were the only typewriters that could produce variable-pitch type in 1973. But neither of them could produce superscript "th" in smaller type. They lacked that character.
And neither of them had the Times New Roman font that these memos were typeset in. That font didn't exist in 1973. It also didn't exist in 1984, when the man who allegedly wrote and signed these memos died.
The IBM Executive series of typewriters did not have a "th" key. Nor did it have a curly quote mark as seen in these memos. Nor did it have the distinctive number 4 as seen in these memos.
The font used in this document has been identified by a leading forensic expert as Microsoft Times New Roman, a font that didn't even exist in 1984 when the alleged signer of these documents died.
Yes, it was, but the Executive was a lever-bar typewriter and could not produce smaller characters like the superscripted "th" found in the memos.
These things were made with Word.
Hell, not even Drudge is running this idea.
Yeah, he is.
And that's just the 20th Century, where almost 40% of elected executives were legislators. That doesn't even count legislators elected to executive as vice president.
Um. Yeah, it does, you dumbass. LBJ, Nixon, 41, Truman, were all vice presidents.
I didn't read any more. What possible statements of worth could follow that?
You're confusing horizontal and vertical lines. In TV jargon a line is a horizontal pixel. Counting from left to right, there are 720 lines in a TV picture. Some are lost to overscan, but all contain picture data.
Scan lines are different. Counting from the top of the picture to the bottom, there are 486 scan lines, some of which contain vertical blanking, CC, VITC and so on.
Blah blah blah. See why we don't elect legislators to the executive branch?
..."for the first time?" Just what the fuck do you think laws are? They're abridgments of our rights! You make it sound like the whole notion is entirely new to you.
That combines capping liability for malpractice at an arbitrarily small amount
The amount proposed is $250,000 for non-economic damages (pain and suffering, etc.) and no limit for economic damages (recovering lost wages including future lost wages due to permanent disability and so on). But it's just a suggestion from the Bush administration. What would you prefer the limit to be?
If you say "no limit," you lose.
with continuing the pharmaceutical corporation entitlements passed last year by fraud.
Please stop lifting your talking points from the Democratic Underground.
You remember, the lies enforced by threatening the auditor with firing (and worse) if he divulged the true projections?
Yes, yes, and Hillary Clinton murdered Vince Foster. Any more wild-eyed conspiracy theories completely unrelated to the facts you wanna throw out there?
Saudi government sponsorship of at least two of the terrorists who planebombed the World Trade Center
Bzzt. There was no Saudi government sponsorship. You're spinning off into Michael Moore territory now.
Ask yourself whether your vice president should be making deals with the Saudis to lower gas prices
A false rumor.
but would amend the Constitution to reduce some citizens' rights for the first time
Confused again. You seem to think that (1) the proposed amendment would prevent gay people from marrying or that (2) same-sex marriage is a thing. Gay people can marry just like anybody else can: boy-girl, boy-girl. And same-sex marriage is a myth. It's never been an institution recognized by law. So no, the proposed amendment would not, if passed, "reduce some citizens' rights."
And even if it did
Try to remember that there's still hope for the truth
I try, but when you spread memes made up out of whole cloth by people who have a very loose relationship with the truth, it's hard.
Um. They did at the time. Between 1993 and 1999, real GDP growth dropped from 3.4% per year to 2.3% per year, causing tax revenues (among other things) to fall significantly short of CBO projections.
What do you think happened to that multitrillion-dollar surplus that was projected way back when? You don't seriously think that Bush pissed it away in his first two weeks in office, do you?
There's a 3-4 year lag between changes in tax policy and large-scale economic effects. We're just now starting to see the effects of the Bush cuts. If Kerry were inaugurated in January and passed his tax hikes a month later, we'd probably see very little effect in the 2005 GDP figures, but a significant effect in the 2007 GDP figures.
unless tv has lower resolution than broadcast quality
All consumer TV's have lower resolution than broadcast quality. If you buy a really expensive NTSC TV, it might be able to resolve 600 lines. The NTSC signal is comprised of 720 lines.
In HD, it's even more drastic. A really expensive HD set might resolve 800 lines of a 1,920-line picture.
A broadcast monitor that can resolve 1,000 lines costs $40,000.