Slashdot Mirror
New Bush Guard Records Released
rwiedower writes "Over the past 24 hours, several new stories have emerged surrounding President Bush's service in the National Guard. Memos from his commanding officer seem to indicate he was unhappy with Bush's desire to leave Texas, and that he felt Bush was going 'over his head' to get out of service. In true slashdot/military/government fashion, Killian even titled one memo 'CYA'. (The memos, in pdf format, are available here.)"
Kerry LIED about some things related to his service some 30 years ago.
BOTH were honorably discharged from the military.
Bush has said Kerry's service was "honorable". Both "sides" have gone at one another with 527 ads. Persons from BOTH campaigns have been proven to have ties with 527s in some way or another. Texans for Truth is now doing the EXACT same thing Swiftboat Veterans for Truth did. Neither side is better or worse here; sorry to anyone who thinks their "side" is.
What I want to know is:
How does someone's experience as a junior officer over three decades ago have any bearing on their ability to be President of the United States?
And before you answer about things like "character" or truthfulness, in defense of either side, be careful, as both side has lied plenty. (Yes, [insert Bush or Kerry here]-supporters, he's lied a LOT about things related to his service, both during and after.)
Please see this in addition to RTFA: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=1252 4_Bush_Guard_Documents-_Forgeries
-Tut
Health-Hack.com
notice how they are not monospaced? in the 1970's that just wasn't done outside of a printing press. Also they th in 187th is in the little letters...again not something done with normal technology. The memo's are fakes from my understanding.
Why is "over his head" in quotes? That phrase doesn't appear in the PDFs. It may be the submitter's interpretation of the sentiment expressed by the author of the memos, but the author didn't use those words.
Putting it in quotes is disingenuous and misleading.
This space intentionally left blank.
having their files coming out, and frankly, they don't look so good.
So who do I vote for then? Kermit The Bot?
Is it true that more people vote for the winner of American Idol, than vote for the president? -Ali G.
That will affect the future of the country for the next 4 years?
Too bad the "new documents" are forgeries.
What I want to know is... are either of them Eagle Scouts?
sigh. note to self-before reading tinfoil sites RTFA yourself.
linky
lgf is a right leaning weblog, but I wanted to make sure that the right's talking points were also represented. I believe that the other point the right made (as seen on 60 minutes) was that this is a purely political move and merely the rehash of an attack that the right claims to have defused during Bush's first run for office.
My understanding is that if this information is new, then the right's argument doesn't hold water, and if these documents are truley forged, then the left has some splainin' to do.
Josh Marshall (of talkingpointsmemo fame) has the Brokaw interview here and the relevent memo text here.
CYA=California Youth Authority?
No?
Didn't think so.
By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
I selected "exclude Politics from my /. homepage" in my /. preferences, yet Politics articles still show up. Why is /. shoving this down my throat?
BC
More info
From and post from Freerepublic:
Howlin, every single one of these memos to file is in a proportionally spaced font, probably Palatino or Times New Roman.
In 1972 people used typewriters for this sort of thing, and typewriters used monospaced fonts.
The use of proportionally spaced fonts did not come into common use for office memos until the introduction of laser printers, word processing software, and personal computers. They were not widespread until the mid to late 90's. Before then, you needed typesetting equipment, and that wasn't used for personal memos to file. Even the Wang systems that were dominant in the mid 80's used monospaced fonts.
I am saying these documents are forgeries, run through a copier for 15 generations to make them look old.
This should be pursued aggressively.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
--Mike--
US, US, uber alles
uber alles in der Welt.... o/~
see above
BC
Look at the part of the memo that reads "the 187th group". Notice anything about the "th"?
Typewriters don't automagically superscript such things like Word does.
These are obvious forgeries done with Word and run through a copier 50 times to make them look old.
The scary part is how the press did nothing to verify the authenticity of these documents. You'd think they'd check their sources.
I sure am glad that Politics.Slashdot.Org doesn't take sides and runs a fair mix of articles covering both sides...
# 2004-09-09 05:43:23 Heckler at Kerry speech says he was assaulted. (Politics,Democrats) (rejected)
# 2004-09-09 05:37:35 Russia vows pre-emptive terror hits (Politics,Security) (rejected)
# 2004-09-09 05:32:02 Computer Scientists Release Study on Venezuelan Re (Politics,Technology) (rejected)
Sorry to reply to my own post, but I wanted to clarify the assessment made by lgf: Their source is freerepublic.org (another like minded discussion board). The evidence they cite is that "every single one of these memos to file is in a proportionally spaced font, probably Palatino or Times New Roman.
/. readers can clear this up one way or the other.
In 1972 people used typewriters for this sort of thing, and typewriters used monospaced fonts.
The use of proportionally spaced fonts did not come into common use for office memos until the introduction of laser printers, word processing software, and personal computers. They were not widespread until the mid to late 90's. Before then, you needed typesetting equipment, and that wasn't used for personal memos to file. Even the Wang systems that were dominant in the mid 80's used monospaced fonts.
I am saying these documents are forgeries, run through a copier for 15 generations to make them look old. "
It is my hope that
Call me if anyone reputible ever looks into it.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1211076/p osts#20
Vote Nader
"Some people say" he missed his physical because he was pissing razor blades. After that stopped, he thought the voices in his head - I mean God - healed him.
Unfortunately, syphillis doesn't "go away". IANAP, but I do know it can cause insanity years later. Not that I am suggesting such a thing, but...
Unfortunately, cocaine doesn't cure it either.
Do you want 1776 or 1984? Time to decide.
BY JOHN F. KERRY
Thursday, February 5, 2004 12:01 a.m. EST
(Editor's note: Sen. Kerry delivered this speech on the Senate floor Feb. 27, 1992. The previous day, Sen. Bob Kerrey, a Vietnam veteran and candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination, spoke in Atlanta, where he criticized fellow candidate Bill Clinton for his lack of military service during Vietnam.)
Mr. President, I also rise today--and I want to say that I rise reluctantly, but I rise feeling driven by personal reasons of necessity--to express my very deep disappointment over yesterday's turn of events in the Democratic primary in Georgia.
I am saddened by the fact that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into the campaign, and that it has been inserted in what I feel to be the worst possible way. By that I mean that yesterday, during this presidential campaign, and even throughout recent times, Vietnam has been discussed and written about without an adequate statement of its full meaning.
What is ignored is the way in which our experience during that period reflected in part a positive affirmation of American values and history, not simply the more obvious negatives of loss and confusion.
What is missing is a recognition that there exists today a generation that has come into its own with powerful lessons learned, with a voice that has been grounded in experiences both of those who went to Vietnam and those who did not.
What is missing and what cries out to be said is that neither one group nor the other from that difficult period of time has cornered the market on virtue or rectitude or love of country.
What saddens me most is that Democrats, above all those who shared the agonies of that generation, should now be refighting the many conflicts of Vietnam in order to win the current political conflict of a presidential primary.
The race for the White House should be about leadership, and leadership requires that one help heal the wounds of Vietnam, not reopen them; that one help identify the positive things that we learned about ourselves and about our nation, not play to the divisions and differences of that crucible of our generation.
We do not need to divide America over who served and how. I have personally always believed that many served in many different ways. Someone who was deeply against the war in 1969 or 1970 may well have served their country with equal passion and patriotism by opposing the war as by fighting in it. Are we now, 20 years or 30 years later, to forget the difficulties of that time, of families that were literally torn apart, of brothers who ceased to talk to brothers, of fathers who disowned their sons, of people who felt compelled to leave the country and forget their own future and turn against the will of their own aspirations?
Are we now to descend, like latter-day Spiro Agnews, and play, as he did, to the worst instincts of divisiveness and reaction that still haunt America? Are we now going to create a new scarlet letter in the context of Vietnam?
Certainly, those who went to Vietnam suffered greatly. I have argued for years, since I returned myself in 1969, that they do deserve special affection and gratitude for service. And, indeed, I think everything I have tried to do since then has been to fight for their rights and recognition.
But while those who served are owed special recognition, that recognition should not come at the expense of others; nor does it require that others be victimized or criticized or said to have settled for a lesser standard. To divide our party or our country over this issue today, in 1992, simply does not do justice to what all of us went through during that tragic and turbulent time.
I would like to make a simple and straightforward appeal, an appeal from my heart, as well as from my head. To all those currently pursuing the presidency in both parties, I would plead that they simply look at America. We are a nation crying out for leadersh
Do you want a decorated war veteran in the White House?
Or do you want a draft-dodger flip-flopper deserter?
The only reason bush is the 'war president' is because he can spell 'war'.
1941 1973.
7 &l ocation=http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/history/y ear_1941.html
http://go.fark.com/cgi/fark/go.pl?IDLink=111615
ipso fatso.
"More organs means more human." - Zim
better link that actually might work and without the fark crap.
"More organs means more human." - Zim
IBM started selling proportional typewriters in 1941. Link here to IBM's history site.
"You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
Link to IBM's history site
"You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
John Kerry first came to national prominence by testifying under oath before the U.S. Senate that he witnessed events to which he was not a witness. He's proud of that testimony, and still claims it was true.
George Bush did what he could to avoid personally going to war. He doesn't campaign on it.
John Kerry is still the same guy.
George Bush is not the same guy.
Relevant? Yep.
sigs, as if you care.
...and illegitimate article make.
Proportional-spaced IBM Selectric typewriters (and perhaps other brands) existed in the early 70's, and probably long before. My mom used one, and I played with it trying to make pictures on the paper (the spacing offered the chance to make much fancier graphics, but the machine she was using lacked any way to advance by 1 unit, which limited the ability to place things where wanted.) The machine looked exactly like the fixed-spacing machine she had at home, but I don't believe one could be altered to the other, the character widths were hard-coded.
It's probably unlikely that a army field officer would use a $4500 IBM Executive Selectric.
From IBM's history site: At a 1961 release price of about $765 the Selectric quickly became a profitable line for IBM.
Due to inflation:What cost $675 in 1961 would cost $4541.11 in 2003.
(but then again, the military has never been cost effective)
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
Could you perhaps quote it?
Yes, the link is nice, but it seems to go on and on and on and on about medals, decorations, ribbons, decorations, medals, decorations, ribbons, ribbons and medals.
What did Kerry claim that was not factual:
Since Bush made his military records available, and Kerry has not, you can search his documents yourself and determine whether he deserved to be discharged honorably or not.
A reporter called Byron York has written a tremendously accurate article on Bush's service. I suggest you read it.
http://www.thehill.com/york/090904.aspx
Notice this particular quote:
"In 1972, there was an enormous glut of pilots," [retired Col. William] Campenni says. "The Vietnam War was winding down, and the Air Force was putting pilots in desk jobs. In '72 or '73, if you were a pilot, active or Guard, and you had an obligation and wanted to get out, no problem. In fact, you were helping them solve their problem."
Now go read the other side of the story, the side that actually reads the whole story, and make a decision.
Remember, President Bush has asked all the 527s to stop the mudslinging, including the SBVFT. He has also said that he thinks Kerry has served honorable, to which Republican audiences have cheered audibly. The Republicans officially do *NOT* question John Kerry's service.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
CYA -- Everyone in the military knows "CYA" this means "Cover Your Ass". The term is used because of the culture of the military. Most people in the military have very little social sophistication, as you might expect of people whose business is solving problems by killing other people. When something is wrong, it is dealt with by attacking, rather than inquiring and fixing.
The person who wrote the memo wanted something in the files that would show he was not part of the corruption. Without the letter, it would be assumed he agreed to the corruption. The lowest ranking person would be punished, and that might be him. The letter "covered" his "ass" from attack.
The handling of these kinds of matters back then is no different than the way the military is handling the torturing of Iraqis now. The people who did the torturing were there to KILL Iraqis. Anything less than killing them may have been thought of as gentle. There is little analysis of anything among those whose business it is to resolve problems by killing others. The leaders only think about escaping responsibility and laying blame on someone of lower rank. So, problems are almost never fixed. Anyone with a sense of idealism finds the military culture very bleak.
Credibility of the man interviewed on the CBS show, "60 Minutes II" -- Someone being interviewed told 60 Minutes last night that he found the letters completely credible: Bush really would have received preferential treatment. I found the man completely credible. That's just the way things were done back then, just as he said. If you had power, you could arrange preferential treatment. If you objected, you would either be ignored or attacked.
Typeface and font used in the letters. -- Much is being made of the proportional font used in the letters. However, I've often had the experience of walking into a military office and being shocked by the office equipment there. There are numerous ways that people in the military get things that they don't really need. For example, a general may requisition something and then discover that his secretary doesn't want to learn how to use it. So, then it is available to an office of lower rank.
The fonts are consistent with those sold with a kind of upscale IBM Selectric typewriter that was actually a low-cost typesetting machine. (Typesetting was what it was called before everyone could do it on a personal computer.) These machines had a use-once carbon ribbon. The impression of each character was clearer than the clearest laser printer.
I'm a bit confused about the model numbers of the typewriter. It could have been called a Selectric costing then about $2,500, I believe. I seem to remember that they had another name for the more upscale, true typesetting machines. (I wrote computer manuals which I typed on a Selectric and were prepared on those machines.)
There were usually some odd symbols and characters like "th" on the type balls used by the Selectric family of typesetting machines. That's because of the design of the balls. Whereever there was room, there were characters, partly to assure that the balls would be balanced, I suppose, and partly just because there was room.
--
Bush's education improvements were fraud
I did some adminwork when I was in the USMC and there are very strict quality control on all official documentation I am not sure when this quality control was implimented but this memo does not meven come close to meeting that requirement.
look here for what the actual procedures are.
"To Err is Human To Forgive is Divine neither of which is Marine Corp Policy"-My SNCOIC
Here
My grandfather retired from the navy as an officer and he brought a bunch of stuff from his office at the naval station home when he retired. One of the things I distinctly remember was an electric IBM typewriter because one summer day instead of going out to buy new ribbons he had me try to re-ink the one he had. I was blueish black for weeks.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
Somebody questioned the credibility of a supposedly 1973 memo typed with a proportional font, and made a little experiment.
If you're too lazy to click on the link: the document typed with all default settings in Microsoft Word looks 1:1 identical, minus the "aging" probably induced by running through the photocopier 4-5 times.
Are we outside the free speech zone or something?
Latewire
Maybe you are quoting the wrong article?
"When you have a half dozen different positions of what actually happened with regard to a single event, some diametrically opposed to one another, it's pretty clear one of them is a lie."
Again, post a quote where he did that. I've read the article. I didn't see any lies from Kerry.
Fire up Microsoft Word with the defaults -- Times New Roman 12pt, etc.
Type in the memo with SUBJECT: CYA
(Make sure you use two spaces after each period.)
Compare what you typed with the memo that supposedly was written in 1973.
They're identical. The word wrap is identical. The letters line up in the same way relative to those above and below.
Funny how the repugs brush of bush being awol when the infact the records shows he was awol. But then take the Swift Boat lies as gospel.
Well, I'm basically going to paste the whole article. I'm sorry if this isn't good enough for you to understand; if it isn't, I'm afraid I can't help. If you're looking for a sound-bite type answer, I guess the best I can do is this:
Kerry claimed he threw away his ribbons and/or medals.
Kerry claimed he DID NOT throw away his own ribbons and/or medals, but that they were actually the medals of another veteran.
One of those statements is not true. Which one? Who knows; Kerry's changed his story so many times that I can't tell (and really don't care).
Can you really not see how many times he's changed his story on this one thing? From "No", to "Yes", to "Partly", and everything in between? It's not the medals themselves, or whether he threw them away, but I hope you can see the problem here.
If, on the other hand, you want to believe that the liberal/left/Democrat side is always perfect, benevolent, and saintly, and the conservative/right/Republican side is pure evil, greed, and lies, that's your right. Go for it.
------
Not one voter in 100 would vote against Kerry for trashing his Vietnam War medals when he was 27 years old. What he did with his combat decorations in 1971 has no bearing on whether he is fit to be president today. That long-ago episode is an issue today only because Kerry's versions of it have changed so many times and because it so perfectly typifies his lifelong habit of saying one thing today and something else tomorrow -- and then denying having done so.
So what does Kerry say he did with those medals? As with so many of his shifts and flip-flops, it's all on the record.
Take 1:
Q. Did Kerry throw his combat decorations away in an antiwar protest 33 years ago?
A. Yes. As The Boston Globe reported on April 24, 1971, "John Kerry . . . said before he threw his medals over the fence: `I'm not doing this for any violent reasons, but for peace and justice, and to try to make this country wake up once and for all.' "
Take 2:
Q. Did Kerry throw his decorations away 33 years ago?
A. Yes. In a Nov. 6, 1971, interview with WRC-TV, he recalled that the protesters had decided to "renounce the symbols which this country gives . . . the medals themselves." When the interviewer asked, "How many did you give back, John?" he answered: "I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine." The interviewer noted that Kerry had won the Bronze and Silver Stars and three Purple Hearts. Kerry: "Well, and above that, I gave back my others."
Take 3:
Q. Did Kerry throw his decorations away 33 years ago?
A. No. In 1984, running for the Senate against a World War II Air Force veteran, he claimed he had refused to do so. "After showing a reporter his medals and ribbons on display in his Back Bay apartment," The Boston Globe reported on Oct. 15, 1984, Kerry "said he had disagreed with other protest leaders on throwing away medals." The medals he was seen tossing, Kerry added, were those of a "veteran from Lincoln [Mass.], at his request."
Take 4:
Q. Did Kerry throw his decorations away 33 years ago?
A. Medals, no; ribbons, yes. During his 1996 reelection campaign, he told the Globe that he only threw the ribbons pinned to his uniform. "Asked why he didn't bring his own medals to throw since it was planned weeks in advance," the Globe reported on Oct. 6, 1996, "Kerry said it was because he didn't have time to go home [to New York] and get them." The medals he was seen tossing, he claimed, belonged to two other veterans -- the one from Lincoln and one from New York. "Kerry says he can't remember their names."
The variations don't end there. For example, his explanation that he "didn't have time to go home and get" the medals -- i.e., he would have trashed them if he could have -- is sharply at odds with his earlier "explanation" to the Boston Herald: "They're my medals. I can do goddam what I want with them."
On Monday's TV show, after being shown the tape
George W. Bush has admitted that he used cocaine, so let's hear from his dealer. How much, how often?
Speak English much?
Good fun - reminds me of trying to re-ink the old TRS-80 printers.
If you have the room, and old IBM typewriter is fun to have around - they make some severely satisfying noises.
I did a bit of research - apparently IBM proportional typewriters were about twice the cost of the other ones, and weren't too popular due to the cost.
Who knows - I have no doubt that GW pulled a lot of strings. This whole election has got me bummed - I'm voting against one guy, and not happy with my choices.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
Word is this...whereas the memo is...
Little Green Footballs here
"I opened Microsoft Word, set the font to Microsoft's Times New Roman, tabbed over to the default tab stop to enter the date "18 August 1973," then typed the rest of the document purportedly from the personal records of the late Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian...The spacing is not just similar--it is identical in every respect. Notice that the date lines up perfectly, all the line breaks are in the same places, all letters line up with the same letters above and below, and the kerning is exactly the same...There is absolutely no way that this document was typed on any machine that was available in 1973.
PowerLine here.
Pacetown here.
But I think that the older-design Executive was still cheaper than the new-fangled Selectric. My mom bought one of the Executives [employee discount] in the '70s and I remember the pain of typing on it for school papers. It sure made for a pretty report, though. When the Personal Computer hit, going to a mono-spaced font on the Epson MX-80 seemed like a step backwards.
"You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
Did the IBM Selectric use proportional type? Though I didn't use any Selectrics until the late '70s, the ones I did certainly were not proportional.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Since you are unable to clearly specify WHAT LIE HE TOLD, all you are doing is repeating your mantra.
You are like so many others. You are unable to think for yourself. You recite the proper phrases to others to confirm that you believe what they believe, but you cannot provide any FACTS for what you believe.
Even when you have a complete article by a fellow true believer, you cannot sort through it to find a single example to support what you believe.
Rule number one. Paint your opponent as evil.
Have the AP write a false story. Next, the Slashdot's of the world will start to quote the story as if it had been verified. After that, CBS will pick it up and before you know it, the whole world will think the story is true. And if it turns out to be a lie, admit it... quietly, and move on to another attack point.
Interesting... That would make sense.
Don't comlain about the MX-80 too much - at least it wasen't a thermal printer.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
There's a funny self-consistency in my guess about the machine used to prepare the memos. Back then anyone writing and publishing computer user manuals really struggled with the publishing. Whenever something needed to look professional, we had it typeset. To do that, we did what is called "spec type". On one occasion I spent 11 hours specifying typesetting values for one particularly complicated page.
After you have spent many, many hours worrying about the look of type, you begin to be extremely sensitive to everything about it. (Either that, or you wouldn't be successful.)
Looking at the letters discussing preferential treatment for George W. Bush brings back strong memories. The Selectric was an unbelievably complicated machine that needed frequent service because it depended on everything being adjusted to extremely fine tolerances.
Anyone familiar with this can see something funny about the letters immediately. It's obvious to me. Whoever had the typing machine did not have the maintenance contract. It's easy to know this because the letters are not all level with the baseline. That's what would happen when the Selectric or other typing machine from the same family was not adjusted.
The funny self-consistency is this. It's easy to guess that they got the machine from the general's office after some civilian secretary there decided that the new machine was too complicated to learn. But, since an office of lower rank was not allowed to have such a machine, they did not have the maintenance contract. That could be why the baseline of the type is so messy.
Someone said that the letters were forgeries because they were obviously done with Microsoft Word. It is impossible to simulate the variation of baseline with Microsoft Word; Word is too basic a tool, it is not able to do many of the functions of real typesetting. People who are sensitive to the beauty of type certainly don't use MS Word.
I use Ventura Publisher. It is possible to vary the baseline in Ventura or in Quark Express. I've never had experience with Quark, but I've talked extensively with professional typesetters who do use it.
--
24 wars since WW2: Creating fear so rich people can profit.
because when they do, they all say "Big deal".
People in the National Guard are part time soldiers, full time civilians, so the Guard has to accommodate that.
Here's what a guardsman at the time said:
http://frontburner2.dmagazine.com/archives/005868
The major media are jumping on the Bush National Guard story with a glee they have yet to exhibit with John Kerry's record, even though media critics are questioning their timing. The major complaint against Bush is that he "gamed the system." I was there. We all gamed the system.
Bush didn't avoid his service anymore than I did. We both did what we could to avoid the worst thing a young man can face: boredom.
Is all of this junior encyclopedia brown crap necessary? Whether or not you can replicate the doc in word or on your 1907 eniac prototype typewriter is irrelevant if the candidate doesn't come out to deny the allegations . . .
.
If he DOES come out and call shenanigans then let professionals take a look at the docs and make a judgement - if he won't deny what's being implied then it's fairly obvious that reproduced or not, they're the truth . .
So how about it, georgie?
...that were a horrible pain to work with, and nobody in their right mind would ever try to use one to write memos on.
Not to mention, of course, that there weren't any typewriters of this sort that used a superscript small "th" like the example in the one memo.
On the other hand, if you enter the text into Microsoft Word in its default settings, you get a document that looks *exactly* like the memo in question, down to the kerning and superscript.
Ditto for some of the others, with minor exceptions (set the margins different, some extra spaces to make the paragraphs line up).
Consider also that these memos are from a guy who died a while back, who wrote in *other* documents about how great George Bush was as a young officer, and that there were issues with abbreviations and date formats in some of the memos (not standard military usage, which is pretty standard).
In particular, note the carefully crafted parallelism of "We saw...[injustice, atrocity, etc.]", repeated not as quotations from a group with whom Kerry had met, but as things he himself had seen with his own eyes.
But don't just take my word for it. Read for yourself. Here's a link.sigs, as if you care.
One memo is really, really obviously typed up in MS Word (when you use the default settings, you get a document that looks precisely like the memo in question, all the way down to the default superscript "th").
While some parts of the military might have had really cool equipment, it's safe to say that an early 1970s National Guard unit wouldn't have a copy of Word floating about.
Says who? When you realize that lowercase 'L' was used for the digit 1 on most typewriters and that the top row was longer than the standard 101-key keyboard we're used to, and the symbol set was different [cents key, for example]... So, find one of these typewriters, take a photo of its keyboard, put it on the net. I googled about for a good photo of an Executive typewriter but all I could find were low-quality scans.
The point of having a proportionally-spacing typewriter was that you could add things like a "th" superscript key and make it look good [not squished] in order to produce camera-ready copy... or to be a status symbol ["Executive"] for muckety-mucks such as unit commanders.
The White House says they're authentic. Why do you resist?
"You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
...or photocopying a lot of times.
When you include noise from multiple generations (used to make it look more "real"), you get uneven baselines with *any* document.
But you can't explain why the document, when compared with a default Word document, has such an extreme similarity in everything from spacking to kerning to superscript letters...
Oh, for the days of a Silent 700, a power outlet and a payphone! I had to drive to Rockville MD [next town south] in order to get cheap [local call] rates to school.
Now, do you remember the electrostatic printers with the cool silver paper? Those were spiffy!
"You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
MOD PARENT UP!
Look at this map of Cambodia. Notice that it is less than 180 miles (300 kilometers) from the end of the Mekong Delta to Cambodia.
Those who research these things say that the U.S. killed only 150,000 to 300,000 Cambodian people directly, if I remember correctly. (None of these people threatened the United States. Even if they knew where the U.S. was, they would not have had the money to go there.) However, the researchers say that it is sensible to estimate that the U.S. government is responsible for the deaths of perhaps 2,000,000 more that happened because of the resultant destabilization of the country.
The U.S. government was trying to hide its activities in Cambodia because officials feared the reaction of U.S. citizens. However, there were military activities in Cambodia long before Henry Kissinger was open about bombing there.
--
24 wars since WW2: Creating fear so rich people can profit.
Says someone who used to have to type things on actual old typewriters in those days, including on military machines.
And before you buy into the "it's real" line too much, you need to explain away why the document is *precisely* like a Word document, down to the superscript and the curly apostrophe.
The only machines that could have turned out something like that would have been insanely expensive, and would not have been found in a minor National Guard unit in the early 1970s. Heck, they'd probably only have *manual* machines, much less multi-thousand dollar typesetting equipment.
Iraqbodycount is only a) only counting cilivilian deaths and b) only counting deaths which have been /reported/ twice in the media. Actual civilian deaths are likely to be significantly higher. One Iraqi group estimated 35k.
Even if we assume that only 12-14k civilians were killed, the number of military casualties were much higher; the Guardian estimates up to 45k.
60k is probably a reasonable estimate for total deaths.
See also the Wikipedia article.
Also, you just made my foes list for calling someone a troll without justification.
Bush wants to fling mud and stay clean. Those are mutually exclusive. Kerry should, in fact must, stoop to his level. The facts are simple, Americans were decorated for threatening to shoot American troops in Vietnam who were commiting attrocities. So clearly those things happened, and that in no way diminishes the sacrifices of those who served with valor and distinction. Kerry went to Vietnam, was decorated and considered an exemplary commander underfire. He cared for his people, would risk his life, and the lives of his men, for one of his brothers in arms. He was horrified by what the paucity of leadership from the higher echelons of the military, and from politicians had wrought so senselessly. So he returned home to fight the tragedy at it's source. And was a leader among those who cared enough for their brothers to fight to spare them the inequities of politicians an ocean away at the point of some 12 yearolds AK. All of this, from a young man! Before he'd even considered a career, he'd already rendered service to his country what most people achieve in a lifetime. (Keep in mind, this isn't about whether or not the war was a good idea, just or nessecary. With the round the clock bombing campaigns it could have been won, had the politicians, who only had to fear criticism and not their lives, had any modicum of courage. But no, they'd prefer to spend American lives cheaply, and at their political convienence.)
George on the otherhand. Instead of being thankful for those who interviened on his and his father's behalf, the safety of his postition in the Air Guard, and the opportunity to learn to fly jets, he can't even fulfill the most modest of obligations in gratitude. Dodging the draft like Clinton, Bush, Cheney, or Rumsfeld is one thing. Can I begrudge a man self-preservation? But to be so ungreatful for the opportunity, or that someone extended themselves as a favor to put another man's less fortunate son in one's place in harm's way. And then to further make a habbit, or rather a career of historical significance, on denegrating the distinguished service of others.... Are there even words suitable to describe the smallness, pettyness, selfishness, cowardice, and absolute lack of honor or integrity that make up such man?
Kerry's serivice is important because it shows he has a propensity to act aggressively, and with valor underpressure even as a young man. The swiftboatvets have demonstrated his patience far exceeds mine.
The president's service is important because of his attacks on other canadates. And also as a reference for what kind of character the man has. From these new revealations I can't say I'm surprised. He's always liked to take vacations, has never considered national security a priority, thinks image is truth, has no sense of gratitude to those who put out on his behalf.
For one time in his life he should be taken to the shed. Kerry should beat him down with his own hypocrisy and lies. It's an ugly job, but Bush needs it for his personal growth as much as the rest of the country needs to see it happen. We need a good this is what happens when your life is a fraud example.
That means the white supremacists have arrived at slashdot.
Remember those lovely things Jim Corsi said at freerepublic.com?
" Corsi on Islam: "a worthless, dangerous Satanic religion"
Corsi on Catholicism: "Boy buggering in both Islam and Catholicism is okay with the Pope as long as it isn't reported by the liberal press"
Corsi on Muslims: "RAGHEADS are Boy-Bumpers as clearly as they are Women-Haters -- it all goes together"
Corsi on "John F*ing Commie Kerry": "After he married TerRAHsa, didn't John Kerry begin practicing Judiasm? He also has paternal grandparents that were Jewish. What religion is John Kerry?"
Corsi on Senator "FAT HOG" Clinton: "Anybody ask why HELLary couldn't keep BJ Bill satisfied? Not lesbo or anything, is she?..."
http://mediamatters.org/items/200408060010
Lots of lovely thoughts like that and worse expressed every day at both littlegreenfootballs and freerepublic.
It's a free country. They do have the right to spew bigotry on the net. I also have the right to point out what kind of bigoted extremists hang out at those two websites.
The Word basic font is derived from a typewriter font.
Ummm, have you ever used a typewriter that had a proportional font, Times New Roman, much less?
I've never seen one.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Let me also point out that while I was in the Navy Reserves, from 1986 to 1994, these fancy typewriters were very rare. The military does not spend tons of money on office equipment for lowly reserve centers/units. They get the hand-me-downs from the various military surplus warehouses. (Trust me, I've been in some and those buildings hold the best in state of the art for 1950.)
In 1994, we still used old electric typewriters with ribbons for most offices. The 5 new computers at my reserve center in 1993 were old 386 cpu's running around 25Mhz. And those were replacing 286's.
The military, especially reserve and national guards just didn't use high-end office equipment in those days.
Also, in the Navy, we had a requirement that all documents use fixed with fonts so they would be OCR compatible. I'm not sure when they started scanning docs for archiving.
Al Gore had far more exit polling data showing he beat Bush in Florida than anything that has shown up in Venezuela.
Only hypocrits point to election controversies in foreign countries and ignore the biggest one in Florida. If you believe the Venezuelan elections were stolen, you should be screaming about how Bush stole Florida from Al Gore.
'60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake
What do you have to say about that? This has been analyzed by EXPERTS, not a bunch of no-nothing, self-righteous Slashdotters that can look up when the first proportional font typewriter was made. Why don't you try looking at similar documents from the time and try to find one that uses a proportional font, let alone a "th" superscript?
Even if they are real, it doesn't matter. Bush is running on his record as President, not on what he did 30 years ago (unlike Kerry)
infested with jello like fishes no melotron wishes
http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewPolitics.asp?Page=%5CP olitics%5Carchive%5C200409%5CPOL20040909d.html
They cite and directly quote three typography experts, all hitting the same basic points as noted below: proportional type, the superscript 'th', the lack of a letterhead.
And one other -- it looks like the 01 Aug 72 signature may have been cut and pasted (the old fashioined way, actual cutting and pasting) because of the cutoff of the top loop.
An IBM Executive typewriter wasn't typesetting equipment, but it was designed to produce camera-ready copy in short order. If my mother wasn't having surgery today, I'd ask her if [a] she still had her typewriter and [b] type up a copy of the memo and scan it in.
... and most interestingly, the 'b' hangs below - it's a less round 'b' than the one Word uses. Also note that in Word, the letters ['p', 'g', 's'] have sharp tips on them, but in the memo they're blunted. See for yourself. Grab a copy of Word and go for it.
It wasn't insanely expensive, it was a model that had been produced by IBM since 1941, and cheap enough after the introduction of the Selectric that a low-level IBMer such as my mom could afford one.
It's a lot like a Word document because the folks who made WYSIWYG editor programs in the '70s and '80s copied the look and feel of the output of a typesetter, same as IBM did when they designed the typewriter back in the early half of the previous century. It's called "good engineering".
What you need to look for are indications of "produced on a typewriter" versus "produced on a computer". The most obvious one is flying letters from being too fast or slow on the shift key. I don't see any indications of that which could be due to a careful typist or perhaps an interlock mechanism on what was IBM's premier typewriter.
As to "it looks the same in Word", no it does not. I just typed in the 8/18 memo, and while the spacing is the "same" [line breaks in the same places], the fonts are different. In the memo, notice that the serifs on the letters hang below the baseline
"You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
Bush refused to repudiate the lies in the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ads. Bush's top fundraiser keeps paying for the ads to run, and more and more of his staffers are shown to be coordinating the SBVT group.
This is what is called karma. What comes around, goes around.
Exit polling showed a statistical dead heat.
The "controversy" came out because the Democratic loaded Florida Supreme Court ordered that the rules for determining a valid ballot be changed from what the legislature had WRITTEN INTO LAW. That's called leglislating from the bench and that's illegal. The Federal District court agreed and sent the case back to the Florida Supreme Court. The Florida Supreme Court then ordered that the entire state be recounted using the NEW rules. That's when it ended back up at the Federal Supreme Court which said, "No, you can't change the definition of a valid ballot."
You want a BIGGER controversy, go look at the Democratic wins for JFKennedy in Chicago or how about the Democratic wins in Arizona in the 2000 election. Go scream about those...
'60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake
What do you have to say about that? This has been analyzed by EXPERTS, not a bunch of no-nothing, self-righteous Slashdotters that can look up when the first proportional font typewriter was made. Why don't you try looking at similar documents from the time and try to find one that uses a proportional font, let alone a "th" superscript?
Even if they are real, it doesn't matter. Bush is running on his record as President, not on what he did 30 years ago (unlike Kerry)
infested with jello like fishes no melotron wishes
America has goten used to the crap neo-con experts testify to.
They say there is no global warming, that drinking water quality is unaffected by more arsenic content, that there are massive stockpiles of WoMD in Iraq, that torturing prisoners is good for them, etc.
Neo-cons have no "expert" credibility anymore.
'60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake
"Are you a fool Khasim??? He plainly points out two specific statements by Kerry that could not both be true - that means he did lie at some point about throwing the medals away."
Check this thread again. No he did not. Even when I specifically asked him to. The BEST he could do is some "poker chip" analogy and pasting the ENTIRE article. He was UNABLE to process the article and extract the information that supported his position. All he could do is claim that it was there. This is because he saw the recognition phrases in the article so he "knew" the article to be "true" about Kerry's "lies".
You are another example of the same mindset he has. You are not reading the thread, you are repeating the recognition mantra. You are not processing the DISCUSSION.
And that is the problem with the "political" discussions / debates in the US. There isn't any. There are just conflicting mantras. People screaming sound bites at each other.
I guess it's easier than thinking.
He LIED, specifically, about whether or not he threw away his medals/ribbons.
I do not know WHICH is the lie, because he has said, alternatively, that he has NOT thrown away any; that he has thrown them ALL away; that he has thrown SOME away; or that he threw none of his OWN, but some of another veteran at that veteran's request.
I, personally, do not know WHICH is the lie, because I physically, myself, do not know whether or not Kerry did actually throw away all, some, or none of his own medals. However, HE HIMSELF has said he has thrown away all, some, or none of his own ribbons and/or medals.
ONE OF THOSE THINGS IS A LIE, and I'm not sure why you can't understand that. There is NO WAY for me to tell you WHICH is a lie, because I wasn't physically there. But when you have the following two scenarios, as presented by KERRY HIMSELF:
Kerry DID throw away his medals/ribbons
Kerry DID NOT throw away his medals/ribbons
ONE OF THEM IS A LIE, period, and you cannot refute that. What's worse is not even the lie itself or the subject, but how many times he's changed his story, and the degree of creativity to which he has done so, for this one utterly insignificant event.
I literally cannot believe I just had to explain that.
Further, please note that I DO NOT CARE whether or not Kerry threw all, some, or none of his medals and/or ribbons away over three decades ago. Whether he did or not would not affect my own personal voting decision. What DOES concern me is that he has CLEARLY lied about it, and several times at that. Just because you don't know WHICH is the lie doesn't make them all the truth.
let focus here:
the documents are genuine.
bush refused a direct order, and was suspended from flying.
babbling on about MS-WORD and copying machines is a poor attempt to cast doubt on the accuracy of the documents. they're real.
... hi bingo
All the news networks called Gore the winner of Florida early on election night 2000 because all the exit polls showed Gore was going to win comfortably.
It wasn't until hours much later when the votes coming in didn't match the exit polling data that Florida was pulled out of the blue column.
And Florida had already allowed ballot counting by different rules when the various ballot counting process had been approved FOR THE FIRST BALLOT COUNT. If what you claim was true, Bush could not have been certified the winner the first time.
The Florida Supreme Court simply order a statewide recount, and the Republicans on the US Supreme Court made sure it would not happen.
What I want to know is:
How does someone's experience as a junior officer over three decades ago have any bearing on their ability to be President of the United States?
And before you answer about things like "character" or truthfulness, in defense of either side, be careful, as both side has lied plenty. (Yes, [insert Bush or Kerry here]-supporters, he's lied a LOT about things related to his service, both during and after.)
Both are men of low character. Character IS important. I think one of the reasons that so many people have quit voting, myself included, is because we can find no redeeming qualities in any of the candidates. My vote doesn't matter because both sides are beholden to various corporations to the point that they are mere puppets of them. Does it matter much if we are screwed by big oil, big media, or big pharmaceuticals? We still are getting screwed.
Our middle class in being driving out of existence by the huge national debt and our inflationary fiat money system.
Slashdot, home of supporters of free software, free music, and free speech.Except for Moderators that disagree with you.
They could "typeset" and had special characters like the little "th" superscript. This memory was the first thing to cross my mind when I was reading about this.
I would say the fact that it's coming to light now is more suspicious than the quality of the printing.
No....the typesetting does not establish this as a forgery in my mind.
A goal is a dream with a deadline
Since it seems that you're sincere on this, I'll try this in another way. Note that I am not against Kerry, or anti-Kerry. This whole thread started by me pointing out that BOTH Bush and Kerry have lied, to varying degrees, about things related to, during, or after their military experience. The whole 527-fueled debate has devolved into nothing useful.
But, again:
You and I do not know whose military decorations, be they ribbons, medals, or both, he threw away that day in 1971.
In conjunction with what you already know of the story, please consider the following:
Only one factual sequence of events, including the ownership and final disposition of the medals and/or ribbons in question, can be true.
Either Kerry threw away his own medals, or he did not. If he did, then saying he did not is untrue. If he did not, then saying he did is untrue. Only one scenario is true; however, he has provided opposing explanations, i.e., I DID throw away my medals, and I DID NOT throw away my medals (but DID throw away medals of another veteran). ONE of those things is not true. Either they were his own medals, or they weren't. The statements that he HAS thrown them away, and HAS NOT thrown them away are NOT both simultaneously true. This means that one of the statements is untrue, otherwise known as a lie.
However, the more troubling aspect is that he changes his story depending on who he's talking to, and what he thinks they want to hear. He's gone from yes, he HAS thrown away all of his decorations, to he only threw his ribbons away but not medals but did throw away the medals of another veteran, to not having thrown ANY of his own ribbons OR medals away, to having thrown away "only his ribbons", but not any of his medals, to there being NO DISTINCTION between ribbons and medals.
Perhaps you can answer me a question. Since I've tried to be reasonable about this, even if you still somehow disagree with this assessment of the events, do you agree with Kerry's handling of this situation? E.g., do you think he should change his story that much, depending on whether or not he's in a campaign, or which way the wind is blowing? Or do you just think he's a victim of the attack dogs and jingoists?
I hate to repeat this, but Bush didn't "lie" about anything. The intelligence gathering capabilities of:
- The US,
- The UN,
- Most of Europe, including the UK, France, and Germany;
- Russia;
- Some of Iraq's neighbors;
- Iraq and Saddam Hussein himself;
believed Iraq to be in possession of significant quantities of WMD.
This is because:
- The US had long tracked Iraq's possession of WMD, considering we provided them with much of that capability (Let's take another brief tangential stroll down the lane of liberal hypocrisy: that the US once supported Saddam against Iran, and provided Iraq with some of its WMD capabilities is something often bandied about. Classically, it removes accountability for any actions in the intermediary, similar to blaming society wholly for the ills of an inner city youth, or a gun manufacturer for the actions of a criminal with a gun. Hypocritically, it ignores the position held by many in this same camp when Madison's own Progressive Magazine published The Secrets of the H-Bomb some 25 years ago, arguing vehemently [with a different agenda, of course] that the secrets of such weapons cannot and should not be kept by the Big Bad Government, because anyone who wanted to figure them out ultimately would anyway. And, indeed, that the blame would rest with the people who used them inappropriately, not the science behind them. Now, apparently, the US is directly to blame for Iraq having WMD. [Even though it didn't have any WMD...] See why it's difficult to keep up?)
- The UN had closely tracked Iraq's WMD capability for over a decade
- As a matter of course, most of Europe had done the same
- When Hussein accused UN weapons inspectors of being US spies in 1998, at which point the UN pulled the inspectors due to lack of effectiveness, Iraq was known by the UN to be in possession of significant quantities of WMD (e.g., amounts in the thousands of tons). Are we to believe that after all UN oversight was gone, that Iraq secretly and silently destroyed ALL of its WMD capability, without the knowledge of Hussein himself - who believed he was INCREASING his investment in WMD - and all without any records or evidence of such destruction? There are over 740 tons of Sarin alone unaccounted for. 740 tons out of a known 920 tons. Eighty percent. Where is it? (Well, it's in the Sudan, Libya, Syria, who knows?)
- This, of course, ignores the fact that Iraq was egregiously in violation, numerous times, of several binding UNSEC resolutions; resolutions which member nations are required, obligated, and compelled to enforce by the UN charter. The type of enforcement, of course, is up for debate; however, it's clear that the previous course of action was not only not working, it had gotten worse, and ultimately utterly failed. While it also, according to the left, was responsible for over half a million Iraqi deaths.
Let's also not forget the *650,000 tons* (yes, you read that right) of non-WMD UN-banned weapons found by coalition forces in Iraq. 650,000 tons, and counting.
The document is not similar to Word. MS Word is similar to the document, by design. They are both trying to be like a typesetting machine. They are both implementing a famous font.
The blurring of photocopying is different from the characteristic uneven baseline from an out-of-adjustment Selectric style machine.
The change in baseline from letter to letter is caused by the type ball rotating very fast and coming from different directions for different combinations of letters. The play in the mechanism that drives the ball causes the unevenness. It's not possible to get the same effect with MS Word; MS Word is a toy.
The blurring from photocopying is also consistent with the old-style Xerox machines, which had much poorer optics and much lower resolution than the Xerox machines of today. For some reason, the old toner would clump. That clumping is different from the loss of resolution caused by modern faxing.
Subject should have been CNS and not CBS. Oops.
infested with jello like fishes no melotron wishes
Subject should have been CNS and not CBS. Oops.
infested with jello like fishes no melotron wishes
Give me a break. Bush is a priveledged COWARD, no deep discussion of Microsoft Word vs. IBM Selectric Typewriters is going to change that. It is time for the media to take the kid gloves off.
GetTheJob.com : Nothing but Real Jobs.
heres the link
0 91 142.asp
http://www.nationalreview.com/kerry/kerry200409
Fox News called Florida for Bush FIRST... this is "true" because this shows how Republicans "stole" the election. (search the net and other posts here on slashdot)
Bush WON every automatic recount (the ones provided for by law). Questions about valid ballots arose during the first HAND count of the ballots because Democrats and Republicans were trying to validate and invalidate ballots by the status of various chads. The election officials came up with a ruling which was taken to court by both parties. Litigation went on while the HAND count continued to try to expedite the process.
The first HAND count showed a Bush win. Gore demanded a second recount with more counties. This also went to litigation.
The Florida Supreme Court ordered a statewide recount AFTER they lost the first Supreme Court ruling and the Supreme Court knocked that one because Florida State Law says that no recounts can be called one week after the election.
The main stream media in the US has no "expert" credibility either.
But I'm sure you won't let that happen...
has every article so far in this 'non-biased' political section been early clearly or overtly anti-bush? Any of the many articles I've submitted even remotely hinting at anything bad about Kerry have been rejected.
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
Yes, it was, but the Executive was a lever-bar typewriter and could not produce smaller characters like the superscripted "th" found in the memos.
These things were made with Word.
I write in my journal
I've done the same thing, and they look about the same to me. I downconverted it to 72 DPI, and they're still not identical, but I'd believe that they were if the document were faxed.
It seems an extreme coincidence that they should be so similar, and yet I can't figure out why it should be done. The document is detrimental to Bush, but the White House was the one who released the document.
Weird, weird. Best guess is that somebody in the White House is covering up something even worse, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.
Focus on the humor of the situation: Someone somehow had a machine that cost then half as much as a new car, if I remember the prices correctly. However, the person did not have the money to get the machine adjusted.
Whenever you saw that back then, you knew something unusual was happening. For example, maybe the machine was stolen, and could not be adjusted, because only IBM technicians had the tools, and they always checked the serial numbers and would report stolen machines.
Or maybe the machine was owned by an office supply store that was using it while trying to find a buyer.
There is simply very, very little chance that a machine used by the military was stolen, so there must be another reason.
When someone offered to sell me a used Selectric in perhaps 1979, I immediately called IBM to see if it was stolen. I was told it was okay. By then it was a newer model that did not need as much adjustment. Even in 1979 these were expensive machines.
Bush's education improvements were fraud. Why would you expect something better in the case of his military service?
George W. Bush was an active alcoholic back then. See Method of Corruption #7 for a discussion of this. See the section just after that for a discussion of how his personality is exactly what you would expect from a recovered alcoholic.
Not meeting commitments is exactly what would be expected of an alcoholic.
I don't think iraqbodycount.net is counting deaths from starvation, malnutrition, etc., such as those attributable to sanctions. I am not sure there is much evidence either way available about whether there is a "net preservation" of lives due to the US invasion.
Oh obviously truth now - the site has links to 20 of its own kerry-bashing articles on that page ALONE, not to mention a poor photoshop of him as a waffle. Eat a dick.
Unless it, like many typewriters of the era, had a "th" key.
"You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
If it had a superscript "th" key it could. Anyone have one?
Sig removed because it was obnoxious
"Process this Khasim - when Kerry has been asked "Did you throw away your medals?" he has given at least 4 differing answers to the question that could not be true if any of the others are true - that means that at least three of the responses are lies."
Now you process this. Find and post the URL where daveschroeder posted that (not the time he posted the entire article) prior to my pointing out that he was just repeating his mantra.
You will not be able to do so because he did not do so.
He did not do so because he wasn't processing my questions. He was repeating his mantra.
The same as you are doing now. You THINK you're presenting "facts", but you don't understand what my point was. You are RE-ACTING instead of PROCESSING.
Pavlov would have been proud.
The guy at indcjournal called a document specialist friend of his:
http://www.indcjournal.com/archives/000838.php
It was the "4" that convinced me. It's "closed" in the pdf.
I remember that typewriters used open-top 4s, because it caused less problems with ink blotches. Its only when people started using computers that they switched to closed 4's. Though my memory might be faulty, that's what this guy found too.
Which I think only highlights the importance of having each candidate sign a Form 180 so that we can be sure that all documentation of their service comes forward.
The IBM Executive series of typewriters did not have a "th" key. Nor did it have a curly quote mark as seen in these memos. Nor did it have the distinctive number 4 as seen in these memos.
The font used in this document has been identified by a leading forensic expert as Microsoft Times New Roman, a font that didn't even exist in 1984 when the alleged signer of these documents died.
I write in my journal
60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake
... The end of that 'K' should be round ... it looks like you took a pair of snips and cut it off so you could see the 'Jerry.'"
By Robert B. Bluey
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
September 09, 2004
(CNSNews.com) - The 32-year-old documents produced Wednesday by the CBS News program "60 Minutes," shedding a negative light on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard, may have been forged using a current word processing program, according to typography experts.
Three independent typography experts told CNSNews.com they were suspicious of the documents from 1972 and 1973 because they were typed using a proportional font, not common at that time, and they used a superscript font feature found in today's Microsoft Word program.
The "60 Minutes" segment included an interview with former Texas lieutenant governor Ben Barnes, who criticized Bush's service. The news program also produced a series of memos that claim Bush refused to follow an order to undertake a medical examination.
The documents came from the "personal office file" of Bush's former squadron commander Jerry B. Killian, according to Kelli Edwards, a spokeswoman for "60 Minutes," who was quoted in Thursday's Washington Post. Edwards declined to tell the Post how the news program obtained the documents.
But the experts interviewed by CNSNews.com homed in on several aspects of a May 4, 1972, memo, which was part of the "60 Minutes" segment and was posted on the CBS News website Thursday.
"It was highly out of the ordinary for an organization, even the Air Force, to have proportional-spaced fonts for someone to work with," said Allan Haley, director of words and letters at Agfa Monotype in Wilmington, Mass. "I'm suspect in that I did work for the U.S. Army as late as the late 1980s and early 1990s and the Army was still using [fixed-pitch typeface] Courier."
The typography experts couldn't pinpoint the exact font used in the documents. They also couldn't definitively conclude that the documents were either forged using a current computer program or were the work of a high-end typewriter or word processor in the early 1970s.
But the use of the superscript "th" in one document - "111th F.I.S" - gave each expert pause. They said that is an automatic feature found in current versions of Microsoft Word, and it's not something that was even possible more than 30 years ago.
"That would not be possible on a typewriter or even a word processor at that time," said John Collins, vice president and chief technology officer at Bitstream Inc., the parent of MyFonts.com.
"It is a very surprising thing to see a letter with that date [May 4, 1972] on it," and featuring such typography, Collins added. "There's no question that that is surprising. Does that force you to conclude that it's a fake? No. But it certainly raises the eyebrows."
Fred Showker, who teaches typography and introduction to digital graphics at James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Va., questioned the documents' letterhead.
"Let's assume for a minute that it's authentic," Showker said. "But would they not have used some form of letterhead? Or has this letterhead been intentionally cut off? Notice how close to the top of the page it is."
He also pointed to the signature of Killian, the purported author of the May 4, 1972, memo ordering Bush, who was at the time a first lieutenant in the Texas Air National Guard, to obtain a physical exam.
"Do you think he would have stopped that 'K' nice and cleanly, right there before it ran into the typewriter 'Jerry," Showker asked. "You can't stop a ballpoint pen with a nice square ending like that
The experts also raised questions about the military's typewriter technology three decades ago. Collins said word processors that could produce proportional-sized fonts cost upwards of $20,000 at the time.
"I'm not real sure that you would have that kind of sop
Did George W. Bush really earn his Varsity Letter for cheerleading in college? Their website is now down, but a group called Cheerleaders for Truth has established that there is some doubt about the authenticity of this award. How can we vote for a president who might have lied about his cheerleading record??
http://www.indcjournal.com/archives/000838.php
Dr. Phil Bouffard (search on Google for who he is) says that the documents are at least 90% probability of being fake. He claims that the font used is Times New Roman, which is only available on computers. He claims that the number "4" proves this, as well as the "th" being very rare.
Folks, unless CBS produces the originals, Dr. Bouffard can't do any more investigation, and his analysis will remain.
Also, note that the documents that the White House produced were the same documents that CBS gave them. Hence, the White House makes no assertion of the document's legitimacy.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
I recall using an electric typewriter in the mid-70s that had proportional font and did the little "th" superscript thing, as well as "st" and other such stuff. But I'm no typewriter expert, I don't know what kind it is or whether it existed in the early 70s. But the question is why would someone forge this? The fact that the white house does not dispute it suggests that the documents are believable and consistent with what they know of Bush's service (or lack thereof) at the time.
I'm tired of this whole "are the docs fake or not" discussion. It seems many Slashdotters are unable to think very logically. Here's a explanation of how logic works:
IF the memos *cannot* be written on a circa 1973 typewriter THEN the memos are fake.
ELSE IF the memos *can* be written on a circa 1973 typewriter THEN the memos can be either fake or real.
Many people seem to be pointing out that typewriters of the era were capable of subscripting, proportional fonts, etc. that means it probobly falls under the second option, that it could be either fake or real, and we need to weigh the probabilities. Personally, I kind of doubt these are forgereis, because that's a lot of trouble to go through to make forgeries and then screw up the fonts, etc. They could have easily just clicked on the 'font' tab and made it Courier or some other 'typrewriter-ish' font, or even just used a real typrewriter. But either way, I don't care whether Bush served well or badly in the ANG 30 years ago.
By the numbers:
& cid=102 04406
....
c id=102 04884
c id=102 05395
c id=102 06191
c id=102 06749
B: (that's you):
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=121190
You didn't process the thread. You jumped in when you saw the trigger phrase.
Now, down that thread
K:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=121190&
I point out that this isn't about that. This is about his conditioned response to trigger phrases and that you have the same characteristics.
B:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=121190&
Paraphrased: "Kerry lied!"
K:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=121190&
Again, I point out that this is about his conditioned response and that you are still exhibiting the same response.
B:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=121190&
Paraphrased: "Kerry lied!"
K:
This post.
Still, you have not managed to process the thread.
Still, you are regurgitating your conditioned response to the trigger phrases. Just like I said you do.
This isn't about the content of the article. This isn't about whether Kerry lied. This is about the CONDITIONED RESPONSE that CERTAIN PEOPLE (you being one of them) have to TRIGGER PHRASES that completely shut down whatever cognitive skills you initially possessed.
The article contained those phrases and daveschroeder reacted accourdingly.
You saw my response to him, you reacted to the trigger phrases and NEVER managed to process the CONTENT of my post.
You STILL haven't managed it. Even after THREE posts explaining it.
The REASON you haven't managed to do so is because, as I have said before, you are REACTING to the TRIGGER PHRASES and NOT PROCESSING the content.
You are a prime example of why political discussion is pretty much useless in the USofA.
Pavlov would have been proud.
If they are authentic, then it's just a bizarre coincidence that they look so much like Word documents. I'm not saying that's wrong; I'm simply marvelling.
As you say, there's no reason for the White House to concur with the documents if they were forged, and there's no reason for them to forge them. So they are probably authentic, on those grounds alone, aside from any work CBS did to get expert authentication. It's just one really weird coincidence that the letter spacings should line up so well, and that a relatively uncommon operation like superscript-th should have been used. (Most people today wouldn't do it if MS Word didn't do it for them.)
I found a chart detailing bush's service in the guard. here
The Badnarik-Cobb debate, also called the "third-party" debate although I believe they also sent invitations to the two establishment parties, was aired on C-Span. It is still in their online archives for a limited time here (or just search c-span.org for "badnarik cobb").
The Selectric typewriter was monospaced (typesetting version not withstanding). The Executive typewriter was proportionally spaced.
"You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
Assuming the site isn't lying about the forensics expert.
Assuming you choose to ignore that Word's "th" is placed such that the bottom of "th" is colinear with the bottom of the top of the '7', whereas the memo of the 18th shows the bottom of the "th" resting below the bottom of the top of the '7'. Ditto for the 5/4 memo and 111th.
Not to mention that Word would have superscripted the "st" in "1st Lt. Bush" but the August 1 memo does not reflect that.
Or are you running a special version of Word that doesn't do that?
I was willing to buy it at first, but the backpedaling is highly amusing to watch!
"You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
As a non-American:
a panses into concetration camps during WWII slur here) and nobody else.
So Bush was at home not killing people because of a "call of duty". Bad bad bad.
Kerry was i Vietnam (which is still Vietnam, not North & South) killing people honorably (maybe). Good good good (maybe). For nothing.
Wow. Good issues.
For the record: on Foreign Policy issues, Kerry and Bush are irrelevant. The course of the US seems to be quite set: We the People (excluding everybody who is not eligible to vote, insert American Native Genocide slur here, insert slave trading slur here, insert putting-second-third-fourth-generation-American-J
For (some of) the non-US (God forbid we speak our mind) it doesn't matter who is President 2004 - 2008, but who is President 2008 - 2012... if that election is actually ever held.
US-residents can moderate all they want, it matters not. The US is one of the oldest (if not THE oldest) governments around. Very, very, very many governments that are no logner with us have fit that description.
Burn, karma, burn.
Assuming the site isn't lying about the forensics expert.
They're not. I spoke to him about 2 hours ago.
Assuming you choose to ignore that Word's "th" is placed such that the bottom of "th" is colinear with the bottom of the top of the '7',
Not on my computer. On mine, the bar in the "th" is just under aligned with the bottom edge of the bar of the 7. But in any case, Word renders superscripts differently on paper than it does on screen. Print it out. Don't look at it on-screen. You will see a difference.
Not to mention that Word would have superscripted the "st" in "1st Lt. Bush" but the August 1 memo does not reflect that.
That's trivially easy to explain (type "1 st" and then remove the space, and then observe the instances of "1 st" with the space left in), but you're ignoring the overriding fact: IBM Selectric typewriters did not have the typeface that these four memos were set in. It absolutely was not available.
A complete list of type balls for the IBM Selectric follows:
10 Pitch Type Styles: Advocate, Bookface Academic 72, Delegate, Orator, Courier 72, Pica 72, Prestige Pica 72
12 Pitch Type Styles: Adjutant, Artisan 12, Courier 12 Italic, Scribe, Prestige Elite, Courier 12, Elite 72, Letter Gothic
Special Typing Applications: Light Italic, Script, Printing ANSI-OCR, Symbol 10, 108 OCR, Manifold 72, Symbol 12
None of those looks anything like Times New Roman. So superscripts aside, these memos could not have been produced on an IBM Selectric typewriter of any vintage, with any type ball.
These memos were not committed to paper in 1972 or 1973. Nor were they committed to paper before 1984, the last year that the purported author of these documents (and signer of two of them) was alive.
I write in my journal
How does this rate as flamebait? I merely made a corrective post because I hosed the formatting of the link in the parent. Are you moderating the fact that I posted the link at all? Granted, certain facts came to light after I made my post, but my post was merely meant as a resource. Now, as it has turned out, perhaps the story I linked to was flamebait, but my post wasn't intended as such.
If you modded me simply because you don't like anyone willing to entertain the idea that Bush may not be Satan, well shame on you.
I am a democrat, but I like to play fair- I am therefore willing to play devil's advocate on occasion.
-Tut
Health-Hack.com
I though that I'd repeat the experiment.
Enjoy.
Do you even know anything about perl? -- AC Replying to Tom Christiansen post.
FOXNEWS called Florida for Bush early in the morning after all the network had awarded Florida to Gore, and then recinded their prediction.
Bush DID NOT win a recount of the entire state of Florida. Bush won automatic recounts of parts of Florida.No recount of the entire state of Florida was ever done. That's what the Florida Supreme Court ordered, and that what the GOP went berserk to have stopped and the 5 republicans on the Supreme Court stopped.
The documents are real. Anyone with the least bit of knowledge about typewriters and typesetting from that era can glance at the files and see the artifacts of a ribbon transferring ink to the paper in the text of the document. Word Processers are way too uniform in their production of text than these document show.
Ring ... the ... bell
The
dog
drools
Pavlovian conditioned response.
And that is the sum and total of most people's "understanding" and "political discussions".
No thought. No processing. No attempts at understanding. Just simple conditioned responses.
Key phrases elicit conditioned responses.
And the person cannot even recognize that those responses are conditioned. The person will even get angry if you point that out. The person truly BELIEVES that s/he is "thinking".
We're not talking Selectric.
And, you're missing at least one typeball from your "complete" list, the APL typeball. I used an APL typeball plenty of times in the 1970s. This leaves me wondering what other typeballs are missing....
"You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
We're not talking Selectric.
Um. Yeah, we are. What?
And, you're missing at least one typeball from your "complete" list, the APL typeball. I used an APL typeball plenty of times in the 1970s.
You might have used a third-party, after-market type ball in the late 1970's. According to IBM, third-party type balls were first available in 1976.
These memos are dated 1972 and 73.
And they couldn't have been produced on a Selectric anyway, because the Selectric could not do proportional-spaced type. Just like the IBM Executive couldn't do Times New Roman or the superscript "th."
I write in my journal
Paridel, I did not intend to cause you to feel negative feelings.
There is a very serious issue here, however. In my opinion, U.S. government violence must stop. The U.S. government has entered into 24 wars since WW2, killing 3,000,000 people who did not threaten the U.S. It's all part of creating fear so rich people can profit.
By some measures, the U.S. government is the most violent government that has ever existed.
Someone asked a question.
... I asked daveschroder if he could quote the specific example from the link he posted.
...
daveschroder posted link as a reply.
I read the article and notice that it was thin on facts, but rich in recogniation phrases. Which led me to believe that daveschroder was one of the peole with conditioned political responses. So, in order to test that
daveschroder went on about poker chips.
I asked daveschroder if he could quote the specific example from the link he posted.
daveschroder posted the entire article.
I posted that daveschroder had problems sorting through the recognition phrases to find the facts.
You hop in.
Same pattern. You STILL do not see that it isn't about the content of that article NOR is it about whether Kerry lied or not.
This is all about conditioned responses and the people who's brains cannot move beyond them. The herd animals.
"Should I just claim that you are a herd animal incapable of creating your own thoughts and opinions since you just jumped in the discussion to defend whatever point you claim you saw Khasim making? I would say that stance is just as valid as the one you just made against me."
You can CLAIM that, but without EVIDENCE it would just be you crying.
In order to provide supporting EVIDENCE for your claim, you'd have to show where he was providing conditioned responses to trigger phrases in a thread that was obviously NOT about the content of the trigger phrases.
And if you read my posts, you will find that I have never questioned whether Kerry lied or did not. That would have invalidated the experiment.
I asked him to quote the lie from the material he had linked.
Go ahead, read back through this thread. Maybe you can learn to rise above the herd.
Canada and Cuba are internationally recognised as having the some of the best medical care in the world. I know lots of people that actually went to Cuba for their operations, and it's not because it's cheaper than here (it's not, since they are foreigners they have to pay). It's simply because they have the best surgeons and the most advanced techniques.
"These are the FACTS not recognition phrases - FACTS. The quotes listed here and in the parents posts have never been called into question. 4 seperate facts supporting an opinion is not "thin on facts.""
..."
..."
..."
..."
..."
..."
..."
Whatever. I read it and it seemed that way to me. I used it as I saw it in the experiment and the experiment was a success.
"Ok that is a quote from The Boston Globe, April 24, 1971."
The experiment is a continuing success. You are STILL attempting to phrase this in terms of whether Kerry lied or he did not.
This is about Pavlov and dogs and bells. Not about whether Kerry lied or did not.
"On Nov. 6, 1971 Kerry states he "gave back six, seven..." of his medals. This is the first public statement on the question."
Again, Pavlov, dogs and bells. Not about Kerry. Yet you are STILL unable to see that. Which, once again, shows how incredibly accurate my initial analysis and experiment was. Despite being repeatedly informed that this is not about Kerry, you KEEP POSTING ABOUT KERRY.
"Ok, flash forward to 1984
You see, by this time I am convinced that NOTHING I can post will EVER convince you that this is not about Kerry. You are unable to intellectually process my posts. You have become the herd animal.
"Ok, now on to 1996
And now I believe that I have shown beyond a shadow of a doubt EXACTLY the type of behaviour I had previously mentioned. Once the recognition phrase evokes the conditioned response the subject will continue with the conditioned response despite all attempts at reason. The subject not only does not KNOW that his responses are conditioned, the subject is INCAPABLE of understanding such.
Even when it is clearly and consisely stated to him.
"Now this year he states,
Again, the subject responds and actually BELIEVES himself to be thinking and reasoning. Yet the response has NOTHING to do with the previous stimulus and EVERYTHING to do with the initial recognition phrase.
"So the quotes from this year
As a dog will drool once conditioned to the bell, so too, these people.
"Myself, and daveschroeder
The group recognition phrases. Seen here in action.
"You could also consider
And again.
"Verify that they actually
Still...
"Enjoy the last word."
I shall. Although I do not believe you will understand it or be able to change your behaviour.
Simply put, you have submitted a post which has nothing to do with the previous posts by myself and Ohreally. You do even ATTEMPT to refute the references to Pavlov or conditioned responses.
You are UNABLE to READ and PROCESS any NEW INFORMATION once your trigger phrases have been triggered.
Your entire post was filled with references to the trigger phrases that you initially responded to. Your ENTIRE post. NONE of it addressed the points I had made. NONE of it. Despite the fact that my posts have been completely non-political.
Now, to extrapolate this to political discussions as a whole in the USofA.....
There are a certain group of people who simply react and post their own pre-conditioned spiels REGARDLESS of whether they are appropriate or not.
These same people are incapable of processing any NEW INFORMATION. They simply cannot do it.
Therefore, it is useless to "discuss" anything (politics in particular) with them because NOTHING you can say will ever get through their mental filters. You either agree with them (friend recognition phrases) or you just don't understand the FACTS (enemy recognition phrases).
Again, these people will NEVER accept ANY viewpoint that differs from their's because they are INCAPABLE of processing any NEW INFORMATION.
This thread is the best example of that process that I have ever seen. There is absolutely NOTHING I can post that will ever convince bonkedproducer that I am discussing Pavlov and not Kerry. Nothing.
http://www.eluniversal.com/2004/09/10/en_pol_art_
Tulio Alvarez: Cantv has confirmed vote fraud suspicions
Lawyer Tulio Alvarez Friday said a statement telephone company Cantv issued Thursday as to the communications voting machines were capable to establish with the National Electoral Council (CNE) vote counting center during the August 15 recall referendum on President Hugo Chávez did ratify the opposition's claims that a vote fraud took place during the election.
No, the APL typeball wasn't third-party. It was the genuine IBM article, used on 134.5baud Selectric terminals for ... programming in APL, which was generally done at IBM.
"You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
Those documents had a lot more going on in them than just proportional fonts. The typewriters of the day would not have been able to reproduce all of the effects. They might get sort of close with a lot of work. There is no way that anybody would expend that much work for a routine memo. That would mean repeated stops, switching of typing elements, stopping again, switching again, repeat, repeat, repeat. No way would anybody do that. To even suggest it is silly.