As opposed to building your own website, or using RoR/Plone to build a site, which cannot be easily checked for security updates? no thanks.
Drupal has a dedicated security team which is proactive on maintaining secure code. One reason the white house gave for using drupal is because of its diligence to security.
Drupal also encourages and has best practices that -most- modules (especially the most popular ones) will weed out the most obvious security issues such as input sanitization, SQL injection, etc. While its not perfect, its -much- more secure than your own implementation.
When your code is exposed to the web, you always must be on watch. No code is perfectly secure, and to think otherwise is naive.
Acquia is not a fork, its a distribution of drupal core + the most popular contrib modules
Drupal core can be thought similar to the Linux Kernel, whereas modules represent the packages that make up a distribution of drupal.
Mollom and TinyMCE work great together
With ultimate flexibility comes an interesting learning curve. But thats what documentation is for.
Wonder if a module is used in drupal? you can look at its usage statistics. Want to do something in drupal? if you google it, usually someone else has already done it and in many cases have a screencast to go along with it.
"How will Acquia keep up with the rapid evolution of Drupal core and modules?"
This question addresses the upgrade path for a site. Like linux (or windows), modules are constantly evolving. Its hard for corporate customers to know if the new version will break things. By using a distribution like Acquia drupal, they do the testing to make sure everything works together.
From your comments, it sounds like your experience with drupal is somewhat new. Spend some time on IRC, going to drupal meetups, drupalcon, or take a lullabot course.
While some of your points (forum module) are valid, the part of needing PHP or that $$$$ is better spent on a closed source alternative is BS.
If you want to create a simple family website, you can goto Acquia.com, download acquia drupal, which has all the modules you need for a simple family site, blog, image site, etc. There are tons of howtos, videos, etc that will teach you how to create the site without touching one line of code.
Most large shops are going drupal because they'd rather spend their $$$$ on developing custom cool things for the site instead of spending it on the closed-source CMS. And, once the site is deployed, the shop has a very large community to draw from for upgrades, changes, bug fixes, etc. They can even goto a different dev team who speaks drupal and not be tied into the company that originally built the site.
The White House, Sony, Lifetime, The Onion, Popular Science, Harvard, etc have PLENTY of money and all choose to use Drupal.
I hope the fix isn't anything like Geordi's Visor!
But who knows, now the blind can pick up electromagnetic fields to prove all those new-age people were right about magnets after all!;-)
In addition, Microsoft has a host of IT and management tools for deploying, maintaining and updating Windows hardware and software. Windows 7 adds some new ones, including management tools that use the scripting and automation capabilities of Windows PowerShell 2.0.
Snow Leopard makes a nod toward the enterprise, with built-in support for Microsoft Exchange Server 2007. But that's simply not enough. Snow Leopard is a consumer operating system, and isn't accompanied by the kind of management tools and IT ecosystem that enterprises need in order to manage large deployments.
Obviously this guy has not worked in an OSX or UNIX enterprise environment. There is a plethora ïof tools for OSX that make it very easy to manage across the enterprise. Add OSX server and netboot, and you have a very robust infrastructure built on OSX. Works well with exchange, but there are better groupware systems that also work with mail.app, And if he thinks 'powershell 2.0' can even come close to bash, hes gotta be on somethingï.
I find it annoying with reviewers play down OSX as some silly consumer product, unworthy of enterprise, management, or doing 'real work'. You goto a F/OSS developer conference and always over half, if not near 8 of 10 laptops will be OSX. Goto a film, media, or science tech conference and you'll find that number pushing 90%.
I'll try to write this in the nicest way possible.
YOU are the problem. YOU cause most traffic to slow down. YOU are what causes road rage. Its really quite simple actually. You stay right except to pass. Period. If you think you're so self-righteous that you can set the speed for others and feel good about that, thats the definition of DOUCHEBAG, and don't deserve to be on the road.
It was a pleasure to drive in Germany. You stay in the right all the time, and not once in 2 weeks did I have to pass someone on the right. Everyone plays by the rules. It might be because if you don't, you'll have a mercedes going 200km/h that looks like it'll run right into you.
But seriously, people need to go back to driving school and learn that you STAY RIGHT AT ALL TIMES EXCEPT TO PASS.
And don't sit in the middle lane either. In many states, trucks are not allowed to use the left lane at all, therefore they need to pass in the middle lane.
This includes RVs, People hauling trailers behind them, etc. So what does that mean...? STAY RIGHT AT ALL TIMES EXCEPT TO PASS!
So please, do us all a favor and get off the road and use mass transit if you can't follow this simple rule... STAY RIGHT AT ALL TIMES EXCEPT TO PASS
What does the freedom of driving a vehicle have to do with "the quartering of soldiers in private homes without the owner's consent or making quartering legally permissible in wartime only, and then only in accordance with law." ???
Regardless, there is no provision in the constitution that even comes close to mandated drivers licenses. Why? First, driving a motor vehicle on government or private property is a privilege, not a right. Freedom of travel relates to enforcement officers or laws that impede the free-flow of people no matter what method of transport. We're talking about checkpoints, DUI random checks, immigration stops, etc. This is a totally different issue.
not quite. the Samsung A610 has a camera that can be rotated both ways. Although the feature was neat, the camera is crappy and I'd trade it any day with an iPhone.
And while candid shots of your friends might be cool, I bet 99% of people are taking pictures of OTHER things than themselves.
I'm in the same boat, however I wonder how stable Windows 7 actually will be? If it really is touted to be the 'SP2/3 release for vista', then it might be worth upgrading to. However, if its like every other windows release, it'll be crap and you'll have to wait until SP1 comes out
Luckily I'm 99% linux / osx.. I only use windows for my very seldom gaming.
No, this is why you use a framework. A good framework enables best practices with minimal overhead. Even a framework may be overkill because there are tons of websites that are extremely simple in nature, and maybe only need a dab of PHP here or there to add the necessary dynamic elements.
Drupal is (now) just as much a framework as it is a CMS.
# Drupal starts you off with huge overhead. You will be running tons of code you aren't using from the get-go. You're basically starting off with quite a low ceiling.
Not quite. the core modules are getting more and more efficient, cutting out everything that isn't basic content and framework code. It isn't CakePHP or Rails yet, but its still quite small.
You will be sacrificing design for ease of development.
False. With zen theme and drupal documentation, you have FULL CONTROL over every aspect of your website. With drupal 6, it gets even easier with Theme developer. My friend just started using drupal a month ago, with limited PHP and Zero drupal experience. He just finished up his gf's page: http://thelovebugdj.com/
Drupal makes it hard to optimize your database usage.
True, that is a tradeoff with -ANY- framework by default. However if you have the need for further database optimization, there are many documented ways to make drupal perform well. Instead of spending the budget on building a site from scratch, instead you can dedicate a portion of it in optimizing it. Remember, Popsci.com, MTV.uk, SonyBMG all run drupal.
Drupal requires an expert to really make it sing.
Depends on the size of the site. A small one as shown above doesn't require an expert, just some nights looking at documentation; which by the way, thanks to Lullabot, pingvision, Acquia, and others, drupal has some of the best documentation around.
However, for bigger sites, you're already going to need experts to get it to do what you want. In the context of E-commerce, I'm CERTAIN you will have a more complete system, built in less time, if you go with drupal rather than building an ecommerce system in Rails. Sure, there will be features that a client will need, and will need to be added to the quote, but you'll be leaps and bounds further from the get-go than if you use a basic framework or build from scratch.
SQL injection, user login, search functionality, XSS, XSRF, user input verification, all are things that are annoying and need to be taken care of. I'd rather have a tested system with a workable upgrade path and spend my time working on the content I need to build the app.
Drupal used to be hard to upgrade, but these issues have largely been resolved in 5 and 6. If you haven't seriously worked with drupal since 5 came out, take a second look at drupal, its community, and evolving modules. Its quite impressive.
It gets very elaborate, very fast. And there are TONS of security issues, and you will miss most of them. Not to mention that usability is a major concern, and will take a lot of time to get right.
This is why you use drupal. No one should be building websites, ecommerce or not, from scratch anymore. SQL injection, XSS, etc are reason enough. Thats why Sony BMG, AOL, MTV, etc are starting to roll out web platforms based on drupal. Using the Ecommerce package in drupal will insure security, and for the most part, usability.
Bite-the-bullet and pay one of the companies that specializes in e-commerce to do this for you. They have already worked out all kinds of issues that you don't even know exist. You and your customers will be MUCH happier.
Naw, you don't need to do this. Many people use oScommerce or Magento or many other F/OSS packages to do Ecommerce. The big problem with them is that they lack the CMS and customization that drupal allows. In fact the big problem with 'buying' some package is that many times your site and your 'store' will look like totally different websites, and you loose control over managing your data with other tools.
While e-commerce can be inherently complex, it doesn't have to. Drupal E-commerce v4 is working to separate products, payments, shipping, etc so they don't have to rely on each other. Ubercart and ECv3 are very large projects because the assume that most people are buying many products, want multiple ways to pay for them, and need them shipped.
same thing here.. I use a Blackberry 8830 from Verizon, tethered via bluetooth. The phone doesn't even leave the holster.
I'll admit though, the speeds aren't that impressive. I get about 200-350k, and it doesn't do well when moving in a car.
The only other issue with this idea is battery drain, using bluetooth drains the laptop, and the phone seems to suck its power away within 2 hours.
"Although you are 'technically' correct that Windows 2000 was released between WinME and XP, what is being missed in this argument is that WindowsXP was the FIRST version of the NT based OS that was focused on and designed to specifically replace the consumer level DOS/Win9x OSes."
Actually, Windows 2000 came out in Feburary of 2000, and Windows ME came out in September. I remember being greatly disappointed by the fact that I had to boot windows 98 for games, and windows 2000 for everything else because WindowsME was a complete piece of shit, and win2k didn't support games that well quite yet.
While our company is not educational, we have talked to a few school districts around Washington about tinyERP.
Take a look at it, its based on python, has a very small core, and is easily modular.
http://www.tinyerp.org/
Wordpad and MS Paint. =P
(From the article:)
I use microsoft currently Xp, I like this os because of, once you have it you can immediately use it as it is. It has the basic features which are very useful to me as a user, to name a few the wordpad, paint, system tools and user definition.
---
PS.. OSX/Gentoo user
I must admit I get a good chuckle when these guys come out saying that WVO won't work, it gels up, isn't free, etc. You apparently haven't actually gone through the process of using Veggie oil as your main fuel.
1st, you'll never get Veggie oil from a fast food restaurant. Most of it is Hydrogenated, which means that it will clog up all your filters, injectors, etc. After testing that stuff, I'll never goto a fast food chain again. You have to find a good quality restaurant, using Canola or Soy. I use 2 day used canola used to deep-fry chips.
Don't believe the mythbusters -- you cannot just put WVO in your car with a coffee filter an expect it to run every day. You need a system. Frybrid is okay, but their customer service SUCKS (just look at postings on their forum), I'd personally suggest http://www.mercedessource.com/ if you have a Mercedes you wish to convert.
I have a writeup of the conversion on my Mercedes 1983 300SD here: http://japerry.fcdnet.org/2006/06/veggie-300sd.htm l
Mind you, I drive 50 miles a day round-trip, from Renton to Redmond (Eastside Seattle) on this stuff. I run through about 10gallons/week depending on how much more driving I do. I usually pick up about 12 gallons a week from my 'source' at the rate I'm going, I'll have 3 55gallon bins full of Veggie oil to be able to take me a good 4000 miles without needing more fuel.
Oh and lastly, for those who say it gets bad at cold temperatures -- same as diesel fuel. BUT if you have good WVO (like I do), it actually will stay liquid and heat up properly with the right kit.
"Seriously though, all the WinAmp features you've mentioned have been done in iTunes for years."
Except one: MP3Pro.
Although I use Linux for my desktop, the one reason why I have a dedicated Multimedia Computer is because of MP3Pro in Winamp and other Audio Editing (Audition).
YEs yes.. I THOUGHT the gallery had it set for ONLY adding pictures... I didn't think we'd get slashdotted. I was wrong. =). However, there is a slight security flaw that happens when anyone can add Sub-albums... it seems like changes Permissions to admin for these anon sub-albums.
No worry though! I've changed it all, cleared out the nice ASCII penguin, and made it so you need to login to post. And no, I'm not giving you the login information.
If anyone else sees something I missed while cleaning up the mess, let me know. japerry@jademicrosystems.com
Slashdot Mirror
As opposed to building your own website, or using RoR/Plone to build a site, which cannot be easily checked for security updates? no thanks.
Drupal has a dedicated security team which is proactive on maintaining secure code. One reason the white house gave for using drupal is because of its diligence to security.
Drupal also encourages and has best practices that -most- modules (especially the most popular ones) will weed out the most obvious security issues such as input sanitization, SQL injection, etc. While its not perfect, its -much- more secure than your own implementation.
When your code is exposed to the web, you always must be on watch. No code is perfectly secure, and to think otherwise is naive.
Acquia is not a fork, its a distribution of drupal core + the most popular contrib modules
Drupal core can be thought similar to the Linux Kernel, whereas modules represent the packages that make up a distribution of drupal.
Mollom and TinyMCE work great together
With ultimate flexibility comes an interesting learning curve. But thats what documentation is for.
Wonder if a module is used in drupal? you can look at its usage statistics. Want to do something in drupal? if you google it, usually someone else has already done it and in many cases have a screencast to go along with it.
"How will Acquia keep up with the rapid evolution of Drupal core and modules?"
This question addresses the upgrade path for a site. Like linux (or windows), modules are constantly evolving. Its hard for corporate customers to know if the new version will break things. By using a distribution like Acquia drupal, they do the testing to make sure everything works together.
From your comments, it sounds like your experience with drupal is somewhat new. Spend some time on IRC, going to drupal meetups, drupalcon, or take a lullabot course.
While some of your points (forum module) are valid, the part of needing PHP or that $$$$ is better spent on a closed source alternative is BS. If you want to create a simple family website, you can goto Acquia.com, download acquia drupal, which has all the modules you need for a simple family site, blog, image site, etc. There are tons of howtos, videos, etc that will teach you how to create the site without touching one line of code.
Most large shops are going drupal because they'd rather spend their $$$$ on developing custom cool things for the site instead of spending it on the closed-source CMS. And, once the site is deployed, the shop has a very large community to draw from for upgrades, changes, bug fixes, etc. They can even goto a different dev team who speaks drupal and not be tied into the company that originally built the site.
The White House, Sony, Lifetime, The Onion, Popular Science, Harvard, etc have PLENTY of money and all choose to use Drupal.
and if you don't know what 'bing' is, just google it!
OMG.
I recall seeing images like this mouse back in High school health class...
right, thats what genital herpes looks like!
I hope the fix isn't anything like Geordi's Visor! But who knows, now the blind can pick up electromagnetic fields to prove all those new-age people were right about magnets after all! ;-)
In addition, Microsoft has a host of IT and management tools for deploying, maintaining and updating Windows hardware and software. Windows 7 adds some new ones, including management tools that use the scripting and automation capabilities of Windows PowerShell 2.0.
Snow Leopard makes a nod toward the enterprise, with built-in support for Microsoft Exchange Server 2007. But that's simply not enough. Snow Leopard is a consumer operating system, and isn't accompanied by the kind of management tools and IT ecosystem that enterprises need in order to manage large deployments.
Obviously this guy has not worked in an OSX or UNIX enterprise environment. There is a plethora ïof tools for OSX that make it very easy to manage across the enterprise. Add OSX server and netboot, and you have a very robust infrastructure built on OSX. Works well with exchange, but there are better groupware systems that also work with mail.app, And if he thinks 'powershell 2.0' can even come close to bash, hes gotta be on somethingï.
I find it annoying with reviewers play down OSX as some silly consumer product, unworthy of enterprise, management, or doing 'real work'. You goto a F/OSS developer conference and always over half, if not near 8 of 10 laptops will be OSX. Goto a film, media, or science tech conference and you'll find that number pushing 90%.
I'll try to write this in the nicest way possible.
YOU are the problem. YOU cause most traffic to slow down. YOU are what causes road rage. Its really quite simple actually. You stay right except to pass. Period. If you think you're so self-righteous that you can set the speed for others and feel good about that, thats the definition of DOUCHEBAG, and don't deserve to be on the road.
It was a pleasure to drive in Germany. You stay in the right all the time, and not once in 2 weeks did I have to pass someone on the right. Everyone plays by the rules. It might be because if you don't, you'll have a mercedes going 200km/h that looks like it'll run right into you.
But seriously, people need to go back to driving school and learn that you STAY RIGHT AT ALL TIMES EXCEPT TO PASS.
And don't sit in the middle lane either. In many states, trucks are not allowed to use the left lane at all, therefore they need to pass in the middle lane. This includes RVs, People hauling trailers behind them, etc. So what does that mean...? STAY RIGHT AT ALL TIMES EXCEPT TO PASS!
So please, do us all a favor and get off the road and use mass transit if you can't follow this simple rule... STAY RIGHT AT ALL TIMES EXCEPT TO PASS
What does the freedom of driving a vehicle have to do with "the quartering of soldiers in private homes without the owner's consent or making quartering legally permissible in wartime only, and then only in accordance with law." ???
Regardless, there is no provision in the constitution that even comes close to mandated drivers licenses. Why? First, driving a motor vehicle on government or private property is a privilege, not a right. Freedom of travel relates to enforcement officers or laws that impede the free-flow of people no matter what method of transport. We're talking about checkpoints, DUI random checks, immigration stops, etc. This is a totally different issue.
not quite. the Samsung A610 has a camera that can be rotated both ways. Although the feature was neat, the camera is crappy and I'd trade it any day with an iPhone.
And while candid shots of your friends might be cool, I bet 99% of people are taking pictures of OTHER things than themselves.
I'm in the same boat, however I wonder how stable Windows 7 actually will be? If it really is touted to be the 'SP2/3 release for vista', then it might be worth upgrading to. However, if its like every other windows release, it'll be crap and you'll have to wait until SP1 comes out Luckily I'm 99% linux / osx.. I only use windows for my very seldom gaming.
or I wonder if this post will get delayed 3 months at the last moment.
No, this is why you use a framework. A good framework enables best practices with minimal overhead. Even a framework may be overkill because there are tons of websites that are extremely simple in nature, and maybe only need a dab of PHP here or there to add the necessary dynamic elements.
Drupal is (now) just as much a framework as it is a CMS.
# Drupal starts you off with huge overhead. You will be running tons of code you aren't using from the get-go. You're basically starting off with quite a low ceiling.
Not quite. the core modules are getting more and more efficient, cutting out everything that isn't basic content and framework code. It isn't CakePHP or Rails yet, but its still quite small.
You will be sacrificing design for ease of development.
False. With zen theme and drupal documentation, you have FULL CONTROL over every aspect of your website. With drupal 6, it gets even easier with Theme developer. My friend just started using drupal a month ago, with limited PHP and Zero drupal experience. He just finished up his gf's page: http://thelovebugdj.com/
Drupal makes it hard to optimize your database usage.
True, that is a tradeoff with -ANY- framework by default. However if you have the need for further database optimization, there are many documented ways to make drupal perform well. Instead of spending the budget on building a site from scratch, instead you can dedicate a portion of it in optimizing it. Remember, Popsci.com, MTV.uk, SonyBMG all run drupal.
Drupal requires an expert to really make it sing.
Depends on the size of the site. A small one as shown above doesn't require an expert, just some nights looking at documentation; which by the way, thanks to Lullabot, pingvision, Acquia, and others, drupal has some of the best documentation around. However, for bigger sites, you're already going to need experts to get it to do what you want. In the context of E-commerce, I'm CERTAIN you will have a more complete system, built in less time, if you go with drupal rather than building an ecommerce system in Rails. Sure, there will be features that a client will need, and will need to be added to the quote, but you'll be leaps and bounds further from the get-go than if you use a basic framework or build from scratch.
SQL injection, user login, search functionality, XSS, XSRF, user input verification, all are things that are annoying and need to be taken care of. I'd rather have a tested system with a workable upgrade path and spend my time working on the content I need to build the app.
Drupal used to be hard to upgrade, but these issues have largely been resolved in 5 and 6. If you haven't seriously worked with drupal since 5 came out, take a second look at drupal, its community, and evolving modules. Its quite impressive.
It gets very elaborate, very fast. And there are TONS of security issues, and you will miss most of them. Not to mention that usability is a major concern, and will take a lot of time to get right.
This is why you use drupal. No one should be building websites, ecommerce or not, from scratch anymore. SQL injection, XSS, etc are reason enough. Thats why Sony BMG, AOL, MTV, etc are starting to roll out web platforms based on drupal. Using the Ecommerce package in drupal will insure security, and for the most part, usability.
Bite-the-bullet and pay one of the companies that specializes in e-commerce to do this for you. They have already worked out all kinds of issues that you don't even know exist. You and your customers will be MUCH happier.
Naw, you don't need to do this. Many people use oScommerce or Magento or many other F/OSS packages to do Ecommerce. The big problem with them is that they lack the CMS and customization that drupal allows. In fact the big problem with 'buying' some package is that many times your site and your 'store' will look like totally different websites, and you loose control over managing your data with other tools. While e-commerce can be inherently complex, it doesn't have to. Drupal E-commerce v4 is working to separate products, payments, shipping, etc so they don't have to rely on each other. Ubercart and ECv3 are very large projects because the assume that most people are buying many products, want multiple ways to pay for them, and need them shipped.
same thing here.. I use a Blackberry 8830 from Verizon, tethered via bluetooth. The phone doesn't even leave the holster. I'll admit though, the speeds aren't that impressive. I get about 200-350k, and it doesn't do well when moving in a car. The only other issue with this idea is battery drain, using bluetooth drains the laptop, and the phone seems to suck its power away within 2 hours.
"Although you are 'technically' correct that Windows 2000 was released between WinME and XP, what is being missed in this argument is that WindowsXP was the FIRST version of the NT based OS that was focused on and designed to specifically replace the consumer level DOS/Win9x OSes."
Actually, Windows 2000 came out in Feburary of 2000, and Windows ME came out in September. I remember being greatly disappointed by the fact that I had to boot windows 98 for games, and windows 2000 for everything else because WindowsME was a complete piece of shit, and win2k didn't support games that well quite yet.
While our company is not educational, we have talked to a few school districts around Washington about tinyERP. Take a look at it, its based on python, has a very small core, and is easily modular. http://www.tinyerp.org/
Wordpad and MS Paint. =P (From the article:) I use microsoft currently Xp, I like this os because of, once you have it you can immediately use it as it is. It has the basic features which are very useful to me as a user, to name a few the wordpad, paint, system tools and user definition. --- PS.. OSX/Gentoo user
I must admit I get a good chuckle when these guys come out saying that WVO won't work, it gels up, isn't free, etc. You apparently haven't actually gone through the process of using Veggie oil as your main fuel. 1st, you'll never get Veggie oil from a fast food restaurant. Most of it is Hydrogenated, which means that it will clog up all your filters, injectors, etc. After testing that stuff, I'll never goto a fast food chain again. You have to find a good quality restaurant, using Canola or Soy. I use 2 day used canola used to deep-fry chips. Don't believe the mythbusters -- you cannot just put WVO in your car with a coffee filter an expect it to run every day. You need a system. Frybrid is okay, but their customer service SUCKS (just look at postings on their forum), I'd personally suggest http://www.mercedessource.com/ if you have a Mercedes you wish to convert. I have a writeup of the conversion on my Mercedes 1983 300SD here: http://japerry.fcdnet.org/2006/06/veggie-300sd.htm l
Mind you, I drive 50 miles a day round-trip, from Renton to Redmond (Eastside Seattle) on this stuff. I run through about 10gallons/week depending on how much more driving I do. I usually pick up about 12 gallons a week from my 'source' at the rate I'm going, I'll have 3 55gallon bins full of Veggie oil to be able to take me a good 4000 miles without needing more fuel.
Oh and lastly, for those who say it gets bad at cold temperatures -- same as diesel fuel. BUT if you have good WVO (like I do), it actually will stay liquid and heat up properly with the right kit.
"Seriously though, all the WinAmp features you've mentioned have been done in iTunes for years."
Except one: MP3Pro.
Although I use Linux for my desktop, the one reason why I have a dedicated Multimedia Computer is because of MP3Pro in Winamp and other Audio Editing (Audition).
YEs yes.. I THOUGHT the gallery had it set for ONLY adding pictures... I didn't think we'd get slashdotted. I was wrong. =). However, there is a slight security flaw that happens when anyone can add Sub-albums... it seems like changes Permissions to admin for these anon sub-albums. No worry though! I've changed it all, cleared out the nice ASCII penguin, and made it so you need to login to post. And no, I'm not giving you the login information. If anyone else sees something I missed while cleaning up the mess, let me know. japerry@jademicrosystems.com
Fixed that problem with it going back to Angelfire.. hehehe
Heh, should point out that this is a mirror... =)
Heh, and don't keep trying to reload it, its counter is stuck..hhehe http://www.fcdnet.org/chernobyl
Yup... Just in case Angelfire decides her bandwidth is too much, here is a mirror: http://www.fcdnet.org/chernobyl/
Just in case.. here is a Mirror.. http://www.plu.edu/~perryjd/sco.html