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Administration Wants To Scale Back Real ID Law
The Washington Post is running a story on the Obama Administration's attempt to get a scaled-back version of Bush's Real ID program passed and implemented. We've been discussing the Real ID program from its earliest days up through the states' resistance to its "unfunded mandate." "Yielding to a rebellion by states that refused to pay for it, the Obama administration is moving to scale back a federal law passed after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks that was designed to tighten security requirements for driver's licenses... Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano wants to repeal and replace the controversial, $4 billion domestic security initiative known as Real ID... The new proposal, called Pass ID, would be cheaper, less rigorous, and partly funded by federal grants, according to draft legislation that Napolitano's Senate allies plan to introduce as early as tomorrow. ...the Bush administration struggled to implement the 2005 [Real ID] law, delaying the program repeatedly as states called it an unfunded mandate and privacy advocates warned it would create a de facto national ID."
I just went into the DMV to renew my license and it was expensive and rigorous.
We go right back to where we were on Sept. 10, 2001. Maybe governors should have been in the Capitol when we knew a plane was on its way to Washington wanting to kill a few thousand more people.
You hear that? The lawmakers that take us to war were actually in danger of physical harm themselves! Imagine that! But their voice, urgency and argument are getting pretty pathetic now that it's been eight years and no such thing has reoccurred. The fear card isn't so strong these days. "You might lose your house and/or job" seems to worry people more than "the odds are 1:10,000,000 that a terrorist may kill you in an extremely contrived scenario!"
Remember any sort of compromise or rational thought is bad because Sensenbrenner says doing so instantly brings us back to pre-9/11 danger. Beware of this sort of mentality. Beware the men that play with your emotions and speak in absolutes for the world is shades of grey.
My work here is dung.
The fundamental issue to having reliable, un-forged ID cards has nothing to do with federal standards. Instead it has everything to do with the drinking age. As long as the legal drinking/smoking ages are higher than the age at which an individual can figure out who to make/get a fake ID, there will be no security provided by an ID card. This is why having a passport actually makes sense. no one goes to the bar on their passport (foreign exchange students aside.) So, a good fake DL can be obtained for $100 near almost any college campus... but a good fake Passport? I'm not sure I'd even know where to begin asking for one, since I'm not a spook. This is of course predicated on the idea that you even believe having a reliable ID card system is a 'good' thing... That is a point that basically can't be argued, either you're for or against it based on a ideological differences. But until the policy makers acknowledge the issue of technical standards being circumvented by clever 15 - 19 year olds every year as technology improves, no standard that they propose will have the effects they think they want.
law passed after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks that was designed to tighten security requirements for driver's licenses...
The last eight years free of collapsing buildings seem to me a great indicator of its implicit uselessness. So why push it still?
Why not just tattoo a number on people. Hear it worked real well about 60 years ago.
I'd be curious are people here more apprehensive about the intrusive government or terrorists?
When can I have my America back?
Hope is the currency of fools
Commissioners called for federal standards for driver's licenses and birth certificates, noting, "For terrorists, travel documents are as important as weapons." Eighteen of 19 terrorist hijackers obtained state IDs, some of them fraudulently, easing their movements inside the country.
Since when was a driver's license a "travel document"?
On the one hand, I object to requiring a driver's license for any travel other than driving. General travel documents are one of the hallmarks of a police state.
On the other hand, I have no great objection to requiring the states to standardize the physical driver's license card so that law enforcement doesn't need to know about the designs of fifty plus different licenses.
To the extent that Pass ID does the latter, I'm in favor.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
A National ID would not have stopped the American terrorist who recently murdered the Holocaust Museum guard nor the American terrorist who murdered that doctor who performed abortions.
I have a feeling that bartender wasn't talking about an actual law that exists. I suspect he was just full of shit.
The thing is that security is no better now than it was before 9/11. People can still sneak things onto airplanes. In fact, the last two times I have flown, I have, entirely by accident, smuggled two knives onto an airplane. Note that these were simply a "multitool"-type knife that I use for taking computers apart when I have no other tools available, but they were still knives, still not allowed, and still, according the DHS, a security risk. Yet twice TSA screeners missed it. I myself didn't even realize it was stuck in my usual carry on (I won't say how or why it was missed because that information can be misused) -- I thought it was lost. But what if I had been a terrorist, fully aware of the knife?
I was traveling with a stop over in Chicago a few years back. In my bag was a hand-made Nepali singing bowl (a musical instrument). Mind you, it was quite large and took up most of the bag, and is made of an alloy of 5 types of metal. The first time I went through security nobody noticed it. Then I went back outside for a smoke and had to go through security again. *This* time the scanner guy watching his little TV waved his arms frantically for all the other securty to run over and check out the bag. They were freaked out and furious. I told them it was a musical instrument and even gave them a demonstration of how it worked. Just as they were letting me leave/proceed, I told them, "oh yeah, the first time I went through here, not one eyebrow was raised". Then I got to see them all gallop back to the little TV sets in anger.
Reply to That ||
[privacy advocates warned it would create a de facto national ID]
Ok, so what? I still don't get why Americans are sooo afraid of the big ID Card. All European countries have one, it doesn't make our government track our every move or anything.
Note the voting pattern of Hispanics, Asian-Americans, etc. These non-Black minorities serve as a measurement of African-American racism against non-Blacks. Neither Barack Hussein Obama nor John McCain is a non-Black minority. So, Hispanics and Asian-Americans used only non-racial criteria in selecting a candidate and, hence, serve as the reference by which we detect a racist voting pattern. Only about 65% of Hispanics and Asian-Americans supported Obama. In other words, a maximum of 65% support by any ethnic or racial group for either McCain or Obama is not racist and, hence, is acceptable.
If African-Americans were not racist, then at most 65% of them would have supported Obama. At that level of support, McCain would have won the presidential race.
At this point, African-American supremacists (and apologists) claim that African-Americans voted for Obama because he (1) is a member of the Democratic party and (2) supports its ideals. That claim is an outright lie. Look at the exit-polling data for the Democratic primaries. Consider the case of North Carolina. Again, about 95% of African-Americans voted for him and against Hillary Clinton. Both Clinton and Obama are Democrats, and their official political positions on the campaign trail were nearly identical. Yet, 95% of African-Americans voted for Obama and against Hillary Clinton. Why? African-Americans supported Obama due solely to the color of his skin.
Here is the bottom line. Barack Hussein Obama does not represent mainstream America. He won the election due to the racist voting pattern exhibited by African-Americans.
African-Americans have established that expressing "racial pride" by voting on the basis of skin color is 100% acceptable. Neither the "Wall Street Journal" nor the "New York Times" complained about this racist behavior. Therefore, in future elections, please feel free to express your racial pride by voting on the basis of skin color. Feel free to vote for the non-Black candidates and against the Black candidates if you are not African-American. You need not defend your actions in any way. Voting on the basis of skin is quite acceptable by the standards of today's moral values.
I'm not saying it will stop FakeIDs, but having a little more consitent document check is a good thing, I think having a standard ID type will also be helpfull, imagine your in CA and someone has a NY license, only trained security staff really have a clue as to what it should look like. I think this is more to help with illegal immigrants getting Gov issued ID's than to stop terroist, and I'm all for that. I don't understand it's called ILLEGAL immigrant for a reason. If they are supposed to be here let's call them Visiting/Undocumented/Drive By Immigrants. Cut welfare make the people who can work work. Sure they may have to do the jobs that snooty americans deemed "only good enough for immigrants" well forget that I won't look down on someone who is working, OK enough off topic. REALID is REALLY GOOD.
Right winger voters, soldiers returning from Iraq, and people with Ron Paul bumper stickers because "we have to know who these people are!"
My license had been expired for six months. Renewal, pay a late fee and they hand it over. Easy. It's funny but on that day I heard on the radio some
Republican senator saying: "If we have national health insurance, we will have healthcare like the DMV."
Now I'm a right wing kind of guy, but I couldn't help but immediately think:
"I wish my health care was as good as my DMV". I would say Republicans should shy away from DMV arguments, because right now health care is so screwed up that
making it like the DMV would be an improvement. Imagine an emergency room where they had different lines for different ailments, actually gave out numbers like the DMV does, had friendly people and a nice building... and only cost $50.
This is my sig.
We already have a national ID card and everybody already has it. It's your social security card.
:-)
How about we update the SSCard from paper to plastic, add a 2-d barcode on the back, add a photo on the font, add a hologram, rfid, gps, whatever on it, and you're done.
Licensed to drive in a state? Change the border of the picture, add a line on the info, whatever.
Would that cost $4,000,000,000? Maybe. I'm happy the government is finally worried about a number as low as 4-billion.
Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling a pig in the mud. After a while, you realize the engineer enjoys it.
Anonymous Coward
Is quite right in this case.
Back on topic...
Real ID is a total failure, like the rest of the Bush administration. One hopes the current one can implement something more realistic and something that would actually accomplish the task of making IDs a little less like Monopoly Money. Current IDs are not up to the task. They are too easy to fake, too easy to get illegitimately and don't work well across state lines. What we need is a well thought out ID that is a little harder to get a hold of, harder to fake, and can help law enforcement/emergency personnel identify someone who's halfway across the country from home.
1. How do you know that the other racial groups did not vote for Obama because he was a minority to to either keep the old white guy out of office or to feel better about themselves?
2. Your assumption that this "magical" 65% of approval is not racist has no factual basis. Your attempted justification for it through other minorities is not related.
3. I want numbers that if 30% less African-Americans voted for Obama, McCain would have won.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I can design my own credit card at Capital One's CardLab. OK, so I want to be able to design my own driver's license, one that is uniquely me. Why shouldn't I be able to do this? Some states are still using licenses that are easily duplicated are freely available for people to fake. Which was the whole point of Real ID in the first place - to bring those states into line because without the Real ID law there was no federal power to say what a driver's license was.
So now I want my own and one that has a picture of me when I was 16 on it.
What makes these people terrorists? Personally, I prefer the terms "murderer", "fucking dipshit moron sack of crap" or "Nick Griffin". I admit the last one is a bit harsh.
"Welcome to our world. We are the wasted youth. And we are the future too." Yes, I know these are stupid lyrics.
New Hampshire has already passed into law that any federal identification program is unconstitutional with 2007 HB0685. To quote the bill, which was signed into law;
The general court finds that the public policy established by Congress in the Real ID Act of 2005, Public Law 109-13, is contrary and repugnant to Articles 1 through 10 of the New Hampshire constitution as well as Amendments 4 though 10 of the Constitution for the United States of America. Therefore, the state of New Hampshire shall not participate in any driver's license program pursuant to the Real ID Act of 2005 or in any national identification card system that may follow therefrom.
Why not just tattoo a number on people.
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Brotherhood (this link is sponsored by Mike Godwin).
When can I have my America back?
The Obama admin needs to kill REAL ID not scale it back!!!
But this is better than doing nothing.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
like the rest of the Bush administration.
That part I agree with.
One hopes the current one can implement something more realistic and something that would actually accomplish the task of making IDs a little less like Monopoly Money. Current IDs are not up to the task.
As I said in my first post on this subject, we don't need any REAL ID or any other national ID. The only tyme a person should need one is when they travel internationally. I don't think they should be required then either, but that's another subject.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
My wife lost hers and we needed it to go on our honeymoon to get a passport.
I was in the hospital in a coma and my mother had to get a copy of my birth certificate. All she did was contact the office where they were kept and requested one. She had to pay for it but they sent her one.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Getting one, not to hard, proving you're the person who's record it is, a bit harder... That level of identity theft requires a lot of validated personal tidbits, not the least of which includes having a copy of a utility bill in that name that was mailed to the address you're trying to get a drivers license for, and also ensuring the insurance card and vehicle redistration also reflect the same...
After I came out of the coma I was in I found out I did not have my driver's license. While in therapy for my injury the therapists said I'd have to take a special test before I could get a new DL. So I went down to the DMV to get a state issued ID card, but when I got up to the counter and asked for one the clerk asked me if I wanted to go ahead and renew my DL. So I went ahead. Now that was before 911 so one may think security, as in proving you are who you say you are, wasn't a concern. However I moved to another state and had to get a new DL from the state I moved to after 911. To get the new DL all I needed was my old one, I brought a certified copy of my birth certificate and a bill in my name with my current address but they weren't needed.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
The real problem in the US is that its too easy to get and use all sorts of things (including credit cards and prepaid mobile phones) with very little ID checking.
No, the real problem is any demand for ID when it's not needed. Now one is needed for a credit card but it's not needed for a pre-paid card, unless that card is loaded with money purchased by check or another card. If paid for with cash ID should not be needed.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Obama doesnt like RealID not because of costs or the like. He doesnt like it because the IDs are being done by the states. Obama wants the federal government in control of everything. Killing RealID would allow him to bring in a real National ID card.
I think the notion that anonymity leads to safety is absurd.
And I believe the notion that a national ID leads to safety is absurd.
You only need anonymity when you already live in a repressive state.
The USA's Founding fathers didn't think that. Instead they believe anonymity is required for a democracy. If a person couldn't have anonymity then they could not speak freely. Take a look at the "Federalist Papers", though the wiki article credits Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and John Jay as the authors they were all published with "Publius" as the author. One of the few who wrote in his own name was Thomas Paine who wrote "These are the times that try men's souls."
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
One of the issues that Real ID adresses is to cut down on issuing DL's to those that have had them revoked. Its a common occurance for John Doe to loose his license in state X so he drives across the state lines, and gets an license from state Y. States do have reciprocity. but it takes years for the records to catch up to you.
I am a victim, er survivor is more appropriate, of this. One day while riding my bike I was hit by a moving van, from Bekins. I lived in one state, where the accident happened, and the driver had moved to that state when the state he moved from issued a warrant for his arrest. Even though I now live with a permanent disability I still oppose a national ID. I care more about liberty than safety, "Give me liberty or give me death."
Real ID helps to make sure the plastic card s being issued to the person it say it is.
Only until it's cracked and can be forged, in the meanwhile all it will do is make people feel safe. Until it is abused, and that will happen, as with everything thing else government will abuse it's new powers.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
there have been NO terrorist attacks in the US.
I never had one until soon after 11/9.
Since then, NOT ONE.
So I suggest you all go out and get me a new laptop. A better one.
Can't be too careful!
The UK also called them murderers, not terrorists.
Only when some God-Bothering control freak saw that he could get more control from a scared country did we change that.
Still unnecessary and in violation of the Constitution. Most specifically the third amendment, but also inhibiting your right to travel.
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
Most states share driving information already. If you have 3 DUIs in California, you will be imprisoned for driving in Oregon as it stands RIGHT NOW. The Real ID fiasco has some other more sinister pretext, not unlike the hundreds of cameras the government is putting up in every city with more than 200 people.
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
What ID!?!?
I thought a drivers license was a document that showed you were allowed to drive a vehicle on public roadways. Why should the federal govt. have a damned thing to do with them, much less dictate they be used as a state or national ID.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Is it me or is Real ID like DRM? For anyone who really wants to circumvent the system, it's not very difficult for a determined individual to do so. But, it's a serious pain the a$$ for a certain percentage of the law abiding citizens to deal with it.
I don't see any benefits and I see privacy, cost and bureaucracy negatives.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
this will not help anything - the 9/11 hijackers had legitimate ID!!!
they were IDed before boarding, just like the other passengers.
why does anyone think this will help???
From TFA, Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner Jr. (R-Wis.):
We go right back to where we were on Sept. 10, 2001
Excellent idea! We'll save a fortune and make the U.S. safe for freedom again! I'll get the keys :-)
Facial recognition, RFID tags, biometrics and central data bases, but at least the feds will be fitting some of the bill, right? States will give in as long as the financial cost is hidden better than the Bush administration did it.
My state, New Mexico, is taking digital photos that go into a central database for facial recognition reasons. The database seems to be held by a third party in another state. I have been unable to dig up any more details. The license cards are generated in another location and it takes weeks to get it in the mail.
The feds set the standard so it is national.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
One of the reasons for Real ID was because some state drivers licenses were too easily to fake. And in some states, the identity checks you have to take to get the license were too lax. (i.e. the "can you drive" parts were more important than the "are you who you claim to be" parts)
Guess what? A driver's license is supposed to say you can drive, not you are who you say you are. Social Security numbers too are used as ID, heck at least some states require a Social Security card to get a license, but they were never meant to be used as an ID. The Social Security Administration even says "You need a Social Security number to get a job, collect Social Security benefits and receive some other government services. But you don't often need to show your Social Security card. Do not carry your card with you. Keep it in a safe place with your other important papers." I don't know if the cards still do but they used to say something along the lines "This is not an identification card".
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Given that a driving licence is supposed to be proof of your ability to drive,
If that were true, at least 1/3 of the people in my area would be removed from the road for their inability to drive in something close to a safe or competent manner.
Unfortunately I agree, many people on the roads seem to be unsafe drivers. Reminds me of Sandra Bullock's driving in "Speed 2: Cruise Control". I think people are better when tested, once they have a license they become demons.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I still go for pull-through spaces too, but that's more because I'm lazy.
I pull through as well, but will back into a space if there aren't any I can pull through.
I do the same, pull straight through or back into a parking space when parking. It seem so natural to me.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I have flown, I have, entirely by accident, smuggled two knives onto an airplane.
When I was in high school more than half of the boys, and some girls carried pocket knives. More than twenty years later I still carry a pocket knife everywhere, though in the past two weeks I went into government buildings and had to take the knife out of my pocket and leave in the car. All this paranoia reminds me people used to carry guns into court rooms.
But what if I had been a terrorist, fully aware of the knife?
When others can also carry their's on board it doesn't mean much. It's only when they are banned that it means anything, it means others are unarmed. Besides my knife I used to also carry a staff, I keep it in my car, but now I'm concerned that if I carry it now I'll end up with a goon squad of cops jumping on me.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
They might as well be allowed then, since it doesn't take a genius to sharpen scissors AND make them easily detach into two knives.
I've got a pair of scissors, that are sharp and strong enough to cut coins in half, that comes apart.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
A ball point pen can be turned into a small gun that can kill.
"The Man with the Golden Gun"?
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Ha, okay. More likely to blow up in your hand, and useless past about 10 feet, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Yes, in a 007 movie, "The Man with the Golden Gun" an assassin has a gun like this. The pen is the gun barrel and I believe a cigarette lighter is the body with ammo.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
linked through a national data hub -- that would allow all states to store and cross-check such information, and a requirement that motor vehicle departments verify birth certificates with originating agencies, a bid to fight identity theft."
Only until everyone accepts them. Once people do then mission creep can set in.
In maryland we have a huge problem with illegal immigrants - there were stories of people getting driver's licenses sharing a stated address with 800 other people.
Maryland can do the same thing as Minnesota, MN doesn't give driver's licenses to those getting them when they go to the DMV. Instead the DMV gives the person a receipt then mails the actual card to the person's home. And it make sure the address is a residence not a mailbox like Mailboxes Etc.
the illegals can then pass themselves off as legal citizens anywhere in the US, abusing services without paying taxes.
They are still paying taxes, just not as much. When they buy things they pay sales tax. When they rent an apartment the owner pays property and income tax. Or, if they buy property themselves, they pay property tax directly. One of the best ideas I've heard or read about dealing with this is to allow all immigrants to legally work and make them pay income, Medicare, and Social Security taxes. This would boost taxes collected and without being able to collect Social Security will keep it solvent.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
until they're a little more mature, 15-16 is too young
I got my first job on a payroll at 15 or 16 and I worked about 5 miles from where I lived. I didn't have one but a car would have been nice. I knew others who went further for work.
Kids and bars don't blend well.
When I turned 18 the drinking age was 18. One month later it was raised to 19. I was legally allowed to buy and drink one month before it became illegal for me to purchase alcohol. For others they were able to buy longer. After the date the age was raised all those who drank in bars no longer could, so what did they do? Many drank in their cars. Then when I was 21 I went to Germany, and there while eating in restaurants I watched as parents ordered beer or wine for their adolescent and teenage children without one eyebrow raised.
Should there be a Law?
I'd be curious are people here more apprehensive about the intrusive government or terrorists?
I'm much more terrified of government than I am of terrorists!!!
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Then they should pass a law saying "All states will issue driving licenses in accordance with the following design..... Existing licenses will remain valid until their expiry".
Can you point where in the Constitution of the USA the federal government is granted that power?
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
A terrorist is a person who engages in actions which cause a feeling of terror.
Except not all labeled as terrorists cause or seek to cause terror. The FBI defines Eco-terrorism as "the use or threatened use of violence of a criminal nature against innocent victims or property by an environmentally-oriented, subnational group for environmental-political reasons, or aimed at an audience beyond the target, often of a symbolic nature."
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
the wait times, the incompetence, and the lack of service...the 'attitude' from the workers there alone would scare the hell out of me
This pretty much describes my experience at some hospitals, but that's really not the point I really care about, which is that it consistently describes my experience with insurance companies.
And this is something I think a lot of people don't get. There isn't single serious proposal making the rounds in the US that actually would lead to government run health care -- that is, we're still talking about private providers, for the most part, except for maybe the odd VA and research hospital and county clinic that all exist right now.
No, instead, every serious proposal focuses on getting the government into health insurance... an industry on which even the most recalcitrant obstructionist public bureaucrat has nothing.
Pretty much half my medical billing and claims end up with some hassle. Changing jobs is a hassle because of insurance. Buying insurance on your own if you choose to be a freelancer or entrepreneur is a hassle. It's been over a decade since I've had a bad experience at the DMV, across two different states. The last test I had over two years ago (a fairly routine liver biopsy) exploded into half a dozen pieces of billing shrapnel that I'm still trying to manage accountability for between my insurer at the time and a handful of providers.
I'm ready to give a DMV level service a shot. Half a day of time to resolve an issue is nothing in comparison.
Tweet, tweet.
Even more OT.
While I agree that voting for someone based on their (or your) skin color is retarded I have to ask: How many people admitted that they voted for GWB because he "looks like a guy you can have a beer with"?
How many people voted for McCain because he's "not _that_ one"?
Face it, America is full of idiots of all sorts. Nothing to see here, please move along.
I have been trolled and I will have a nice day!
Period. I shall never comply to any such kind of national ID card. End of story. I will fake it or have it faked, zap the RFID if necessary, and otherwise deliberately fuck it up. I will not vote for a politician who votes in favor of a national ID card, and I have told them so.
It does not get much simpler than that.
national id. USDOT sets the standards the state need to conform to a federal standard
I don't know if it's true that USDOT sets the standards for license plates, however they are not ID. In Florida plates can be transferred from one vehicle to another, or can be transferred to another person along with the car. In other words a plate can be assigned to two or more different cars or people, therefore it does not identify anything. I've done both, I had the plates transferred to me when I bought a car, and I've transferred one plate I had from one car to another. Which brings up another thing, some states only require one plate while other require two.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
There are some areas where it's hard to buy alcohol or get served with an out-of-state ID. As much as I don't like the idea of "Real ID," I want something that allows me to buy alcohol without hassle when I travel.
No, I will not work for your startup