Dude, you're so missing the point. What happened to challenging people in the committing of a crime? what happened to actually taking an interest in keeping your own community safe? What happened in not handing over responsibility to local councils to keep you safe at night?
"Do we have to sacrifice some smaller parts of freedom to live in a more secure society ?"
Argh. So you want to keep trading those small bits of freedom to feel safe while the media fills you with dread over pedophiles, child murderers and terrorists? When will you feel totally safe? When the last terrorist has been hunted down?
"Did it stop the IRA from bombing London some years ago? of course not."
Different timelines. Cameras didn't hit their current ubiquity until after the bombing campaigns started to tail off when Sinn fein and the British Government starting talking in the wake of Clinton politicking between the two parties. The 'ring of steel' around downing street followed the mortar bomb attack, and cameras followed after that, but only in central London. Sod the populace as long as the PM is okay.
However, there have been more than several drunken fights outside my house (under a camera), and our town's crime statistics have stayed constant. The police are royally pissed because the cameras have been used as a justification to reduce their numbers in the local area, meaning that cars are administered from the county centre roughly 25 miles away. Calling the police tends to result in a 30 minute delay for them to divert a car, and they act as a visual deterrent more than anything else.
I'm less bothered about the drunken fights (they happen the world over) than I am the complete erosion of the policing of our towns. I'm more bothered that my tax money (council charge, paid to the local council in opposition to wage taxes, which go to central government) being used to buy a camera system that is patchy and considered a replacement for a warm body and brain in a uniform.
"may have a little effect on petty high street thieves,"
Almost none. There was a TV report of a man running a shop who'd invested in a state of the art camera system...put it this way, he dumps the footage to DVD. Now sinee he'd put the camera in, he'd had 250 cases of shoplifting. How many convictions off that? 5.
Basically, when the police arrest someone, the Crown Prosecution Service has to determine whether they can win a case and whether it's in the public interest to convict. So while it's obviously correct to try and convict Paul Burrell of stealing from *Our lady of grace, Princess Diana* [sarcasm intended], after her death, petty theft is not. Case in point. My sister and GF were attacked in the street. The attacker was known as someone who assaults people. The police said that they couldn't press charges because the woman in question had children and it wouldn't be in the public interest to remove a violent prat from the streets. THAT is what we contend with daily in the UK. We're by no means a police state, we just have the apparatus at the hands of the incompetant.
"they agreed with bush on the whole Weapons of Mass Destruction"
'they' were 50/50 split over the question of war, and we've been haranguing our MPs about the invisi-weapons since the whole thing broke. Incidentally, three MPs resigned over the mess, and if Blair makes it back into the leadership of the country, I'm personally going to raise holy hell.
"There is one thing that privacy advocates are forgetting, for there to be an impact on your privacy there needs to be either a person at the other end of the camera, or an automated consequence."
Nope, us privacy advocates understand this problem, and would like to point out that the camera's deterrent nature falls completely off once the first person has undertaken an illegal action under the camera and *not* faced any kind of punitive action. The majority of cameras are run by third party companies where they can be funded. I happen to live in a town where they spent all the money on the cameras and didn't have enough to staff them. Incidentally, the siteing of the cameras is also illegal under the CCTV extensions to the data protection act. But that's okay, they're the government.
"I trust the British government"
Well, I'll continue to be one of those naive privacy advocates until you shift your arse enough to understand that the government doesn't really care if you trust them or not, and that the time when you don't trust the government might be a few days too late to do anything. Also, it should be pointed out that it's local councils that handle cameras outside of the M25, and they've been models of civic pride. Discounting the special deals they make with developers. Or minor cases of corruption.
"than I'd give out to anyone who's not an authorised government official"
A GP isn't an authorised government official, and you'd be scared if you saw the state of the records routinely passed around in the health service. BTW, the NI number is no longer used as a 'real' form of ID, requiring a better intersection of one or more pieces of ID. Again, it's not proof of your identity despite being asked for on some forms.
"information is now potentially in the hands of someone unscrupulous."
More unscrupulous than the home office? Seriously, you can't escalate an NI number to anything other than paying taxes or finding out that your national insurance contributions are up to date, specifically it's tied to your address, name and earnings. It can be used to claim benefits, but the address would be redflagged if there are tax inputs using it.
"If anything untoward were to happen, I have virtually no recourse"
See above. Generally speaking there isn't a lot that can happen that wouldn't result in someone getting in contact with you.
"it's impossible to get a new NI number:"
It's difficult, not impossible. You have to attend a one-on-one interview and prove who you are, although it's not generally necessary because it's not an important piece of information except for tax records.
"I still squirm at the thought of how many successful women now seem to view a large percentage of decent single men. Namely, as lesser and lower."
Damn, it's not just the successful women that consider me lesser and lower.
Seriously, I'm seeing more in terms that I'm supposed to supply a home, food, warmth, companionship, love, affection and escorting to all the right places. Or I can buy a Kylie calender and a new laptop. No contest.
"Women at workplace usually balance the atmosphere towards more positive."
'Usually' and 'towards' are weasal phrases that mean nothing. I've worked in all female environments and all male, and it *totally* depends on the males and females.
"some studies"
Some other studies showed different. What a topsy turvy world.
" this article for those folks who think that people are "stealing" or "taking" jobs away from Americans?"
We're going through the same kind of 'immigration fear' in the UK, and it's one of the things that I point out; however, it's important to note that there is a flipside.
If people are willing to work for less, what does that do to the job market in general? In terms of outsourcing, there is an asymetric shift of income _out_ of the market intended to be supported, and this will impact on the reduction in size of the market.
For example; call centers used to be a sink for students and people who wanted short term employment. If you outsource all those jobs, then you're shifting them. While they may not count in terms of them being short contract or 'temp' jobs, the overall number of jobs available shrinks, meaning less money actually stays in the economy.
This is why I'm withdrawing my support/patronage of companies that outsource. I say that I'm fine with India or whatever country creating an industry, but for greedy western companies to outsource based on profit margins is callous to the extent where Nike can now claim to be doing good.
Add to this the relative 'danger' of shifting your financial records to Asia and there is a situation waiting to happen.
"Look, we like you, but you're screwed and you're going to die someday. M'kay?"
"American society is all about relative ethics. People who are rich and powerful get away with it."
Spot the poor founding father. You just ended up with a committee of aristocrats rather than a single guy in a hat, but essentially the American dream is a carrot on a stick. Having said that, the American political model is the best one I've seen, it's just suffering from the effect of large corporations having the rights of individuals, the ethics of serial killers and the pockets of some small African nations.
"They will often hold the seized equipment for several years even if no formal charges are filed."
And cause damage that has nothing to do with an investigation, often returning machines and components in small pieces, generally because they don't _have to_ return stuff in the condition in which it was seized.
This then does beg the question regarding the competency of law enforcement. In the UK the computer forensics are often outsourced, which does tend to step over the line of law enforcement and into private enterprise. I'm personally waiting for the first seizure for political/economic gain, whether overt or covert.
MTV Entertainment would like to point out that the use of the brand 'punk'd(tm)' is in direct contravention of the trademark act, and we shall be sending round fourteen(14) lorry loads of Ashton Kucher merchandise to bury your sorry ass in.
Tezza,
"Please tell me where I'm struggling under the weight of that?"
So you started a clothing line in Australia, moved to the UK and you are no longer trading, but they still send you the forms and you fill them out?
Admittedly, I can see where you aren't exactly overburdened with paperwork, but why the hell are you still signing the forms?
"I don't see any British equivalent."
Self-assessment can be returned electronically; VAT can be returned electronically (although most financial packages will actually print on the form), PAYE can be submitted electronically. That's all I checked for, but you may have missed the paperwork that drops through any business owners door on a semi-frequent basis.
"Using terms like "hit list" is not a good way of gaining credibility with investors and with judges."
You ought to write to them. You could save them millions in legal fees. One small caveat, they do appear to have screwed some money out of investors using exactly that language.
"i hate to be a defeatist, but fucking christ, who isn't trying to fuck you these days?"
I'm with you, and the most interesting thing is that I'm from the UK. To have the situation mentioned in two continental regions is a _bad_ indicator, IMO.
Absolutely. One of the best criterion for someone not totally jingoistic is the ability to find and accept that every country on the planet has it's dirty little secrets, including the one whose flag you fly. The thing that annoys most people east of Manhatten is the sheer ignorance of these things that an increasing number display. I can see that you're a discerning individual, though, and don't get caught up in fallacious beliefs.
"American Law came from england."
No it didn't. The concepts came from England, but your government structure is different, your judicial system is different and it's mutated faster than bacteria on strontium. About the only thing that is the same is the overall concept of property, and it differs wildly between the UK and US.
"All people have rights that shall not be infrindge."
The UN declaration of human rights pretty much codifies that, but I understand that you're naturally worried about the UN coming in and stealing your women.
"I pretty much fail to see the point of your post"
I was calling you on your rhetoric. I consider it a form of sport to hold mirrors up and enagage people on the things that they try to sidestep.
Incidentally, you didn't really answer anything in my post, just complained.
"There's perfectly respectable spam for pornographic web sites."
Not really. It's a cutthroat business that either has you raising money for content via providers, or pointing towards sites that produce their own content. There are also circle-jerk sites that tend to push crap traffic into popup hell because they aren't going to buy into an 'Adult Verification Service' (Inertia selling cloaked as a method of checking age)
And yes, I was a pornographer at one time, but I got _really_ bored.
We could, but that would mean checking into the historical precedence behind Las Vegas, and that could be a painful process. Also the Cosa Nostra was more of a family enterprise until someone boosted their ability to run various scams during the 20s by banning booze and raping the stockmarket. Incidentally, there's this thing called 'corruption' which was rampant during that time and involved everyone to the extent where the 'untouchables' were formed as the few guys that were truly untouchable by the mob.
'Russian mafias' are fairly egregarious group which arose in the relative power vacuum left by the collapse of the KGB and before the FSB called in as many contacts as it could. The KGB was involved in numerous black bag operations which *required* access to the black market to use weakness as a lever. The KGB operated many black markets as a method of control, and when the legitimate money stopped flowing, it made sense for the operators to go dark.
On the other hand, I loved your allusion to 'nazi companies', because Ford, GM and Chrysler were supplying Germany up until Germany declared war on the US; this wasn't just vehicles, but also included aero engines for the Luftwaffe. The car plants were hurriedly converted in 1939 to boost the aviation production.
The cute thing is that Ford and GM demanded reparations for damage to these plants from the government and got them.
IBMs work with the census calculation machines is well known, Henry Ford's antisemitism was legendary and he never returned the medal given to him by two Reich Officers that came to Michigan for the purpose.
"But the really deap pockets are from from Europe. Lots of old powerfull companies."
Were. Bear in mind that the rise of facism disenfranchised a great deal of wealth in the form of confiscated holdings, let alone the necessary rebuilding that had to take place after the levelling of many of the cities. America stepped into the breach left by a war damaged europe and significantly cleaned up, despite having De Gaulle call in old debts and nicking America's gold reserves.
But on the whole you failed to see the point where laws in Europe are placed to regulate companies that behave in amoral ways, whereas laws in the US appear to be placed to protect special interest groups which claim to represent voters. Go look up 'plutocracy'.
"It bothers me that the debate has been framed in terms "stealing stuff that you didn't pay for and how can we stop that" rather than the fact we have, for the first time in history, a culture whose important facets are all owned by corporations, and whether or not that's a very good idea."
Or, how to create taxation for non-governmental organisations. And no, it's not a good idea when companies can buy the ability to introduce laws to prop up their business model. However, the INDUCE act itself might provide precedence for all kinds of laws intended to stop people being assholes at the detriment of freedom.
At this rate, the US will lawyer itself into oblivion.
Slashdot Mirror
"people caught all thanks to CCTV"
Dude, you're so missing the point. What happened to challenging people in the committing of a crime? what happened to actually taking an interest in keeping your own community safe? What happened in not handing over responsibility to local councils to keep you safe at night?
"Do we have to sacrifice some smaller parts of freedom to live in a more secure society ?"
Argh. So you want to keep trading those small bits of freedom to feel safe while the media fills you with dread over pedophiles, child murderers and terrorists? When will you feel totally safe? When the last terrorist has been hunted down?
"Did it stop the IRA from bombing London some years ago? of course not."
Different timelines. Cameras didn't hit their current ubiquity until after the bombing campaigns started to tail off when Sinn fein and the British Government starting talking in the wake of Clinton politicking between the two parties. The 'ring of steel' around downing street followed the mortar bomb attack, and cameras followed after that, but only in central London. Sod the populace as long as the PM is okay.
However, there have been more than several drunken fights outside my house (under a camera), and our town's crime statistics have stayed constant. The police are royally pissed because the cameras have been used as a justification to reduce their numbers in the local area, meaning that cars are administered from the county centre roughly 25 miles away. Calling the police tends to result in a 30 minute delay for them to divert a car, and they act as a visual deterrent more than anything else.
I'm less bothered about the drunken fights (they happen the world over) than I am the complete erosion of the policing of our towns. I'm more bothered that my tax money (council charge, paid to the local council in opposition to wage taxes, which go to central government) being used to buy a camera system that is patchy and considered a replacement for a warm body and brain in a uniform.
"may have a little effect on petty high street thieves,"
Almost none. There was a TV report of a man running a shop who'd invested in a state of the art camera system...put it this way, he dumps the footage to DVD. Now sinee he'd put the camera in, he'd had 250 cases of shoplifting. How many convictions off that? 5.
Basically, when the police arrest someone, the Crown Prosecution Service has to determine whether they can win a case and whether it's in the public interest to convict. So while it's obviously correct to try and convict Paul Burrell of stealing from *Our lady of grace, Princess Diana* [sarcasm intended], after her death, petty theft is not. Case in point. My sister and GF were attacked in the street. The attacker was known as someone who assaults people. The police said that they couldn't press charges because the woman in question had children and it wouldn't be in the public interest to remove a violent prat from the streets. THAT is what we contend with daily in the UK. We're by no means a police state, we just have the apparatus at the hands of the incompetant.
"UK doesn't have something as utterly vile as the Patriot Act"
RIP Bill, Criminal Justice Act and the Terrorism Act 2000 extensions. We just split it up. Note that hacking is a terrorist act.
"they agreed with bush on the whole Weapons of Mass Destruction"
'they' were 50/50 split over the question of war, and we've been haranguing our MPs about the invisi-weapons since the whole thing broke. Incidentally, three MPs resigned over the mess, and if Blair makes it back into the leadership of the country, I'm personally going to raise holy hell.
"There is one thing that privacy advocates are forgetting, for there to be an impact on your privacy there needs to be either a person at the other end of the camera, or an automated consequence."
Nope, us privacy advocates understand this problem, and would like to point out that the camera's deterrent nature falls completely off once the first person has undertaken an illegal action under the camera and *not* faced any kind of punitive action. The majority of cameras are run by third party companies where they can be funded. I happen to live in a town where they spent all the money on the cameras and didn't have enough to staff them. Incidentally, the siteing of the cameras is also illegal under the CCTV extensions to the data protection act. But that's okay, they're the government.
"I trust the British government"
Well, I'll continue to be one of those naive privacy advocates until you shift your arse enough to understand that the government doesn't really care if you trust them or not, and that the time when you don't trust the government might be a few days too late to do anything. Also, it should be pointed out that it's local councils that handle cameras outside of the M25, and they've been models of civic pride. Discounting the special deals they make with developers. Or minor cases of corruption.
"You DO NOT FIGHT with a cop, peace officer, soldier, whatever. You will not win anything."
As a British subject, I hereby claim Florida.
"than I'd give out to anyone who's not an authorised government official"
A GP isn't an authorised government official, and you'd be scared if you saw the state of the records routinely passed around in the health service. BTW, the NI number is no longer used as a 'real' form of ID, requiring a better intersection of one or more pieces of ID. Again, it's not proof of your identity despite being asked for on some forms.
"information is now potentially in the hands of someone unscrupulous."
More unscrupulous than the home office? Seriously, you can't escalate an NI number to anything other than paying taxes or finding out that your national insurance contributions are up to date, specifically it's tied to your address, name and earnings. It can be used to claim benefits, but the address would be redflagged if there are tax inputs using it.
"If anything untoward were to happen, I have virtually no recourse"
See above. Generally speaking there isn't a lot that can happen that wouldn't result in someone getting in contact with you.
"it's impossible to get a new NI number:"
It's difficult, not impossible. You have to attend a one-on-one interview and prove who you are, although it's not generally necessary because it's not an important piece of information except for tax records.
"you're missing the entire point of his statement."
That anyone can motorise the goalposts and he was always going to be right? Well done, that man. Learn anything useful?
"I still squirm at the thought of how many successful women now seem to view a large percentage of decent single men. Namely, as lesser and lower."
Damn, it's not just the successful women that consider me lesser and lower.
Seriously, I'm seeing more in terms that I'm supposed to supply a home, food, warmth, companionship, love, affection and escorting to all the right places. Or I can buy a Kylie calender and a new laptop. No contest.
"Women at workplace usually balance the atmosphere towards more positive."
'Usually' and 'towards' are weasal phrases that mean nothing. I've worked in all female environments and all male, and it *totally* depends on the males and females.
"some studies"
Some other studies showed different. What a topsy turvy world.
" this article for those folks who think that people are "stealing" or "taking" jobs away from Americans?"
We're going through the same kind of 'immigration fear' in the UK, and it's one of the things that I point out; however, it's important to note that there is a flipside.
If people are willing to work for less, what does that do to the job market in general? In terms of outsourcing, there is an asymetric shift of income _out_ of the market intended to be supported, and this will impact on the reduction in size of the market.
For example; call centers used to be a sink for students and people who wanted short term employment. If you outsource all those jobs, then you're shifting them. While they may not count in terms of them being short contract or 'temp' jobs, the overall number of jobs available shrinks, meaning less money actually stays in the economy.
This is why I'm withdrawing my support/patronage of companies that outsource. I say that I'm fine with India or whatever country creating an industry, but for greedy western companies to outsource based on profit margins is callous to the extent where Nike can now claim to be doing good.
Add to this the relative 'danger' of shifting your financial records to Asia and there is a situation waiting to happen.
"Just like in Texas where yall means you all."
Ooooooohhh. I thought it was vocalised punctuation.
"I'm going to be a sympathetic realist."
"Look, we like you, but you're screwed and you're going to die someday. M'kay?"
"American society is all about relative ethics. People who are rich and powerful get away with it."
Spot the poor founding father. You just ended up with a committee of aristocrats rather than a single guy in a hat, but essentially the American dream is a carrot on a stick. Having said that, the American political model is the best one I've seen, it's just suffering from the effect of large corporations having the rights of individuals, the ethics of serial killers and the pockets of some small African nations.
"They will often hold the seized equipment for several years even if no formal charges are filed."
And cause damage that has nothing to do with an investigation, often returning machines and components in small pieces, generally because they don't _have to_ return stuff in the condition in which it was seized.
This then does beg the question regarding the competency of law enforcement. In the UK the computer forensics are often outsourced, which does tend to step over the line of law enforcement and into private enterprise. I'm personally waiting for the first seizure for political/economic gain, whether overt or covert.
"I think the latter. I call BS."
We don't care. You are nobody.
"punk'd."
MTV Entertainment would like to point out that the use of the brand 'punk'd(tm)' is in direct contravention of the trademark act, and we shall be sending round fourteen(14) lorry loads of Ashton Kucher merchandise to bury your sorry ass in.
Have a nice day.
MTV Entertainment.
Tezza, "Please tell me where I'm struggling under the weight of that?"
So you started a clothing line in Australia, moved to the UK and you are no longer trading, but they still send you the forms and you fill them out?
Admittedly, I can see where you aren't exactly overburdened with paperwork, but why the hell are you still signing the forms?
"I don't see any British equivalent."
Self-assessment can be returned electronically; VAT can be returned electronically (although most financial packages will actually print on the form), PAYE can be submitted electronically. That's all I checked for, but you may have missed the paperwork that drops through any business owners door on a semi-frequent basis.
"Using terms like "hit list" is not a good way of gaining credibility with investors and with judges."
You ought to write to them. You could save them millions in legal fees. One small caveat, they do appear to have screwed some money out of investors using exactly that language.
"i hate to be a defeatist, but fucking christ, who isn't trying to fuck you these days?"
I'm with you, and the most interesting thing is that I'm from the UK. To have the situation mentioned in two continental regions is a _bad_ indicator, IMO.
"My point was to the person I was replying to."
;o)
And horribly public, too.
"And that other contries have dirt as well."
Absolutely. One of the best criterion for someone not totally jingoistic is the ability to find and accept that every country on the planet has it's dirty little secrets, including the one whose flag you fly. The thing that annoys most people east of Manhatten is the sheer ignorance of these things that an increasing number display. I can see that you're a discerning individual, though, and don't get caught up in fallacious beliefs.
"American Law came from england."
No it didn't. The concepts came from England, but your government structure is different, your judicial system is different and it's mutated faster than bacteria on strontium. About the only thing that is the same is the overall concept of property, and it differs wildly between the UK and US.
"All people have rights that shall not be infrindge."
The UN declaration of human rights pretty much codifies that, but I understand that you're naturally worried about the UN coming in and stealing your women.
"I pretty much fail to see the point of your post"
I was calling you on your rhetoric. I consider it a form of sport to hold mirrors up and enagage people on the things that they try to sidestep.
Incidentally, you didn't really answer anything in my post, just complained.
"There's perfectly respectable spam for pornographic web sites."
Not really. It's a cutthroat business that either has you raising money for content via providers, or pointing towards sites that produce their own content. There are also circle-jerk sites that tend to push crap traffic into popup hell because they aren't going to buy into an 'Adult Verification Service' (Inertia selling cloaked as a method of checking age)
And yes, I was a pornographer at one time, but I got _really_ bored.
"Or they could just be cracking down on competitors with the Fed's help."
It's one way to boost the membership fees overnight. I wonder if my offer of 1.2 million addresses will come with indemnification from now on?
" Isn't part of the punishment for the crime supposed to be that it serves as a deterrent for other's who'd do the same thing?"
They're trying to avoid alerting Jeb Bush to the fact that his campaign contributors are being arrested.
"We can also talk about the mafia's."
We could, but that would mean checking into the historical precedence behind Las Vegas, and that could be a painful process. Also the Cosa Nostra was more of a family enterprise until someone boosted their ability to run various scams during the 20s by banning booze and raping the stockmarket. Incidentally, there's this thing called 'corruption' which was rampant during that time and involved everyone to the extent where the 'untouchables' were formed as the few guys that were truly untouchable by the mob.
'Russian mafias' are fairly egregarious group which arose in the relative power vacuum left by the collapse of the KGB and before the FSB called in as many contacts as it could. The KGB was involved in numerous black bag operations which *required* access to the black market to use weakness as a lever. The KGB operated many black markets as a method of control, and when the legitimate money stopped flowing, it made sense for the operators to go dark.
On the other hand, I loved your allusion to 'nazi companies', because Ford, GM and Chrysler were supplying Germany up until Germany declared war on the US; this wasn't just vehicles, but also included aero engines for the Luftwaffe. The car plants were hurriedly converted in 1939 to boost the aviation production.
The cute thing is that Ford and GM demanded reparations for damage to these plants from the government and got them.
IBMs work with the census calculation machines is well known, Henry Ford's antisemitism was legendary and he never returned the medal given to him by two Reich Officers that came to Michigan for the purpose.
"But the really deap pockets are from from Europe. Lots of old powerfull companies."
Were. Bear in mind that the rise of facism disenfranchised a great deal of wealth in the form of confiscated holdings, let alone the necessary rebuilding that had to take place after the levelling of many of the cities. America stepped into the breach left by a war damaged europe and significantly cleaned up, despite having De Gaulle call in old debts and nicking America's gold reserves.
But on the whole you failed to see the point where laws in Europe are placed to regulate companies that behave in amoral ways, whereas laws in the US appear to be placed to protect special interest groups which claim to represent voters. Go look up 'plutocracy'.
"It bothers me that the debate has been framed in terms "stealing stuff that you didn't pay for and how can we stop that" rather than the fact we have, for the first time in history, a culture whose important facets are all owned by corporations, and whether or not that's a very good idea."
Or, how to create taxation for non-governmental organisations. And no, it's not a good idea when companies can buy the ability to introduce laws to prop up their business model. However, the INDUCE act itself might provide precedence for all kinds of laws intended to stop people being assholes at the detriment of freedom.
At this rate, the US will lawyer itself into oblivion.