The first blow was massive appointment of Czars to take running things out of the hands of the secretaries, etc. That was a method of bypassing congress and the system of checks and balances.
This is the second blow. Trust me, there are plenty yet to come. Did you actually believe a real person would be allowed to get press coverage as a presidential candidate? Let alone be party nominated? The parties are all on the same team, and it isn't our team.
Some on-topic examples would be Python, Perl, and Java. I'll keep the examples few and focused to the topic to try to avoid favorite solution flame wars.
For the sake of the pedants I am not saying that any software is 100% interoperable, 100% stable, 100% bugfree, or totally secure. Those solutions don't exist.
I'm saying that there is plenty of software that is all of those things relative to other applications in the field and almost all mature software is advantageous over MS solutions in those areas.
Historically, Microsoft has intentionally tried to avoid interoperability. More often than not they employed embrace, extend, and extinguish tactics. Microsoft appearing to do something open was a sure sign of the opposite. Look at Kerberos, LDAP, and AD for an example.
'As for me, I don't discount any solution just because of who comes up with it, so I'm fine with.NET. To each his own.'
*shrugs* We must agree to differ then. I prefer to learn from history. Historically speaking, there haven't been any useful Microsoft technologies that were or are completely interoperable, stable, relatively bugfree, and secure. Seeing as how they have released lots of technologies and solutions over the years they have had plenty of opportunities and have on numerous occasions even lied about the aforementioned things.
Maybe.Net is/was/will be the exception. If so I'm not concerned, there are other solutions that DO meet the above criteria and work well. All in all, my track record of avoiding Microsoft solutions when something else will do will then have been the right choice about 99 out of hundred times and saved me thousands of dollars in license, support, and training costs.;)
'You have to define "stand-alone executable" very carefully.'
Or we could just use the standard definition. A native code executable that runs on 'the bare OS' which includes any libraries that are shipped by the OS and installed by default.
Java really falls more in the interpreted language side of things since the distinction is to separate languages that compile to native code (with the strengths and weaknesses of doing do) from those that depend on a program to interpret them and the jvm interprets bytecode. Having an intermediate format really doesn't change that.
You aren't going to be doing any system programming in Python, Java, or Perl. While in my opinion these are all 'real' programming languages, the distinction between compiled and interpreted is legitimate.
I dunno, I hate itunes for installing quicktime because I hate quicktime. The format isn't so bad (if dated at this point) but the problem is that the player aggressively steals file association with all the common video and audio filetypes. I mean I'm all for playing quicktime files in quicktime but there is nothing else I want loading in it.
No but the intended audience of this website does consist of the US not the entire world.;) The international guests seem a bit uppity tonight. Not our fault that all good web content (including Slashdot) is U.S. Based and targeted.
'Exactly. I'm sick of people on the net being so US-centric extolling the virtues of services like hulu, netflix and amazon to people who have no ability to access those services regardless of the OS they use.'
*Looks around* Ummm... dude. You do realize you are talking to people in the U.S. on a U.S. website and U.S. forum? There are quite a few international guests here but they are just that, guests, USians are still the natives on Slashdot. Anything said here is safely assumed to be directed at a U.S. audience just like the text in a U.S. based magazine would assume a U.S. audience.
It isn't our fault that all the good web content is intended for people in the U.S. any more than it is our fault that 80% of the medical schools around the globe have websites that sound like a sales pitch to U.S. students, touting pass rates of U.S. board exams, etc.
I suspect it has to do with people being greedy and the U.S. having the largest economy in the world (even now since its crash pretty much took the rest of the world with it). That's just a guess though.
I will admit to the possibility that my information is outdated. I find it is generally best not to invest must time in MS solutions when there is a practical choice. Coding for.Net is certainly avoidable.
From those I knew who DID use C# and wanted to use mono as an alternative the word was that mono lacked fundamental components of the standard library that were basically showstoppers (forms if I remember correctly).
There is platform specific code for Perl, Python, etc but in practice it doesn't take much effort to write around it, in most cases there isn't even a significant advantage to using the platform specific code. There is no fundamental functionality in the interpreter that is missing on any particular platform.
Maybe my information is dated and there is just nitpicky stuff missing from mono these days. But I don't exactly see a bunch of non-windows.Net apps (or any for that matter) popping up so I doubt it.
Nobody said it was the best tool for the job or every job, Wikipedia uses php and is one of the fastest sites on the web despite staggering demand. Only that it was suitable for the task.
Besides, the facebook team may or may not blame php for their problems but their implementation is the more likely culprit.
Then language B is more suitable for the task but either is suitable. Large scale application written in VB don't exist because vb is not suitable for writing them.
Water is suitable for removing the paint from auto parts, sand-blasting is more suitable. Nail polish is not suitable.
That the language uses an interpreter rather than a compiler. This is less of an issue with the ridiculously fast processors but interpreted languages are slower than compiled languages and don't result in a stand-alone executable. For a long time many didn't even considered scripting to be real programming.
'Perl and Ruby are the same class of language as C.'
Not even remotely. While you can use Perl and Ruby for many applications, they are not suitable for systems programming. For that you need a compiled language (and I'm not talking about Javaism but actual native code compilation) like C, C++, and Pascal. There are hacks to compile scripting languages but they aren't fully functional and really aren't worthy of more than a footnote for the sake of the pedants.
'Whoever categorized Ruby and Javascript together must be completely ignorant of programming.'
Why? Because the JavaScript interpreter is usually built into web-browsers? They are both interpreted languages.
C or C++? You seem to group them together even though they are distinct languages. C++ isn't really just a superset of C after all, anyone who starts trying to compile C code in a C++ compiler will discover that quickly;)
I think the two pies are compiled versus scripted languages. In the old school world coding in scripted languages isn't considered programming and their description claims the first group as programming languages and the second as scripting languages.
Java would probably be the best choice. Not so much because it is the best choice as because it is the most popular choice, especially for paid work.
For quick and dirty go with Python or Perl. Python is pretty by default (coding style is built into the language itself), Perl can be written to be prettier than Python or uglier than anything else imaginable. According to this study Perl is still more popular and considering CPAN's goodness there are probably more third party modules available for Perl.
'But at the same time, show me a large scale project done in PHP, and I'll show you a large scale project that would have been better off in Python.'
With all do respect, I find that most worshipers at the altar of python feel the same way about anything that doesn't require C for the sake of performance.
I realize you guys feel that code should LOOK pretty. But not everyone agrees that you need the language to mandate style and FUNCTIONALLY python is no more capable than Perl (example intentionally chosen to make pythonites cring). For most web projects, php is as capable as either.
Besides, he claimed PHP was unsuitable for large projects not merely that there were better choices. PHP is suitable and demonstrably so. There are languages that aren't, like VB. There are no large projects primarily written in VB for this reason despite the fact that vb was extremely popular.
'It has been applied, but the GP said that it still isn't suitable.'
My argument wasn't that PHP was popularly used. My argument was that php is a tool which has been used to successfully create numerous large scale projects. What makes a language suitable for large scale projects? The ability to use said language to successfully develop a large scale project.
The GP didn't merely say there were better tools but that PHP was unsuitable (and therefore incapable) for use in large projects.
'Which major company uses PHP?'
What do companies have to do with anything?
'PHP apps often look like this [photopumpkin.com], and just because many people in the world do it that way, it doesn't mean that it's good.'
Along with apps in every other language. You can write code that WORKS that way in python (since for some reason seeing that brings to mind the gospel of the mindless zombies of the church of python) it will just look pretty and organized while it does it.
'"X has been used for Y" does not demonstrate that "X is suitable for Y".'
Fine. For the sake of pedantic. PHP has been used in many large scale projects that work well for the task for which they were designed. Demonstrating that the GP is incorrect.
Happy now? We are talking about coding. If the result functions and well then the language was suitable to create it, end of story. Something else might have been MORE suitable but that is another matter.
Paid windows fanboy shill mods are out since the minor apache contribution MS made. Anything that even hints negative to MS is being modded into oblivion.
PHP has been applied to many large scale development projects, demonstrating that you are incorrect. Don't misconstrue your own preference for one language over another to mean that a language is inferior or unsuitable.
Slashdot Mirror
The first blow was massive appointment of Czars to take running things out of the hands of the secretaries, etc. That was a method of bypassing congress and the system of checks and balances.
This is the second blow. Trust me, there are plenty yet to come. Did you actually believe a real person would be allowed to get press coverage as a presidential candidate? Let alone be party nominated? The parties are all on the same team, and it isn't our team.
Some on-topic examples would be Python, Perl, and Java. I'll keep the examples few and focused to the topic to try to avoid favorite solution flame wars.
For the sake of the pedants I am not saying that any software is 100% interoperable, 100% stable, 100% bugfree, or totally secure. Those solutions don't exist.
I'm saying that there is plenty of software that is all of those things relative to other applications in the field and almost all mature software is advantageous over MS solutions in those areas.
Historically, Microsoft has intentionally tried to avoid interoperability. More often than not they employed embrace, extend, and extinguish tactics. Microsoft appearing to do something open was a sure sign of the opposite. Look at Kerberos, LDAP, and AD for an example.
'As for me, I don't discount any solution just because of who comes up with it, so I'm fine with .NET. To each his own.'
*shrugs* We must agree to differ then. I prefer to learn from history. Historically speaking, there haven't been any useful Microsoft technologies that were or are completely interoperable, stable, relatively bugfree, and secure. Seeing as how they have released lots of technologies and solutions over the years they have had plenty of opportunities and have on numerous occasions even lied about the aforementioned things.
Maybe .Net is/was/will be the exception. If so I'm not concerned, there are other solutions that DO meet the above criteria and work well. All in all, my track record of avoiding Microsoft solutions when something else will do will then have been the right choice about 99 out of hundred times and saved me thousands of dollars in license, support, and training costs. ;)
'You have to define "stand-alone executable" very carefully.'
Or we could just use the standard definition. A native code executable that runs on 'the bare OS' which includes any libraries that are shipped by the OS and installed by default.
Java really falls more in the interpreted language side of things since the distinction is to separate languages that compile to native code (with the strengths and weaknesses of doing do) from those that depend on a program to interpret them and the jvm interprets bytecode. Having an intermediate format really doesn't change that.
You aren't going to be doing any system programming in Python, Java, or Perl. While in my opinion these are all 'real' programming languages, the distinction between compiled and interpreted is legitimate.
I dunno, I hate itunes for installing quicktime because I hate quicktime. The format isn't so bad (if dated at this point) but the problem is that the player aggressively steals file association with all the common video and audio filetypes. I mean I'm all for playing quicktime files in quicktime but there is nothing else I want loading in it.
No but the intended audience of this website does consist of the US not the entire world. ;) The international guests seem a bit uppity tonight. Not our fault that all good web content (including Slashdot) is U.S. Based and targeted.
'Exactly. I'm sick of people on the net being so US-centric extolling the virtues of services like hulu, netflix and amazon to people who have no ability to access those services regardless of the OS they use.'
*Looks around* Ummm... dude. You do realize you are talking to people in the U.S. on a U.S. website and U.S. forum? There are quite a few international guests here but they are just that, guests, USians are still the natives on Slashdot. Anything said here is safely assumed to be directed at a U.S. audience just like the text in a U.S. based magazine would assume a U.S. audience.
It isn't our fault that all the good web content is intended for people in the U.S. any more than it is our fault that 80% of the medical schools around the globe have websites that sound like a sales pitch to U.S. students, touting pass rates of U.S. board exams, etc.
I suspect it has to do with people being greedy and the U.S. having the largest economy in the world (even now since its crash pretty much took the rest of the world with it). That's just a guess though.
I will admit to the possibility that my information is outdated. I find it is generally best not to invest must time in MS solutions when there is a practical choice. Coding for .Net is certainly avoidable.
From those I knew who DID use C# and wanted to use mono as an alternative the word was that mono lacked fundamental components of the standard library that were basically showstoppers (forms if I remember correctly).
There is platform specific code for Perl, Python, etc but in practice it doesn't take much effort to write around it, in most cases there isn't even a significant advantage to using the platform specific code. There is no fundamental functionality in the interpreter that is missing on any particular platform.
Maybe my information is dated and there is just nitpicky stuff missing from mono these days. But I don't exactly see a bunch of non-windows .Net apps (or any for that matter) popping up so I doubt it.
Nobody said it was the best tool for the job or every job, Wikipedia uses php and is one of the fastest sites on the web despite staggering demand. Only that it was suitable for the task.
Besides, the facebook team may or may not blame php for their problems but their implementation is the more likely culprit.
Then language B is more suitable for the task but either is suitable. Large scale application written in VB don't exist because vb is not suitable for writing them.
Water is suitable for removing the paint from auto parts, sand-blasting is more suitable. Nail polish is not suitable.
'What the hell does "scripting" even mean?'
That the language uses an interpreter rather than a compiler. This is less of an issue with the ridiculously fast processors but interpreted languages are slower than compiled languages and don't result in a stand-alone executable. For a long time many didn't even considered scripting to be real programming.
'Perl and Ruby are the same class of language as C.'
Not even remotely. While you can use Perl and Ruby for many applications, they are not suitable for systems programming. For that you need a compiled language (and I'm not talking about Javaism but actual native code compilation) like C, C++, and Pascal. There are hacks to compile scripting languages but they aren't fully functional and really aren't worthy of more than a footnote for the sake of the pedants.
'Whoever categorized Ruby and Javascript together must be completely ignorant of programming.'
Why? Because the JavaScript interpreter is usually built into web-browsers? They are both interpreted languages.
bash and csh aren't actually languages. Neither are .bat files.
'the current fad languages (python, ruby) '
*looks around warily then whispers*
Careful, the pythonites might hear you. All other languages are inferior because they don't dictate coding style.
C or C++? You seem to group them together even though they are distinct languages. C++ isn't really just a superset of C after all, anyone who starts trying to compile C code in a C++ compiler will discover that quickly ;)
I think the two pies are compiled versus scripted languages. In the old school world coding in scripted languages isn't considered programming and their description claims the first group as programming languages and the second as scripting languages.
Java would probably be the best choice. Not so much because it is the best choice as because it is the most popular choice, especially for paid work.
For quick and dirty go with Python or Perl. Python is pretty by default (coding style is built into the language itself), Perl can be written to be prettier than Python or uglier than anything else imaginable. According to this study Perl is still more popular and considering CPAN's goodness there are probably more third party modules available for Perl.
Are you on crack? Facebook is slowed by advertising but Wikipedia would be on my top 5 list of fast loading sites.
Technically no, practically yes. C# is .net specific and .net is windows specific. Mono is not 100% compatible.
'But at the same time, show me a large scale project done in PHP, and I'll show you a large scale project that would have been better off in Python.'
With all do respect, I find that most worshipers at the altar of python feel the same way about anything that doesn't require C for the sake of performance.
I realize you guys feel that code should LOOK pretty. But not everyone agrees that you need the language to mandate style and FUNCTIONALLY python is no more capable than Perl (example intentionally chosen to make pythonites cring). For most web projects, php is as capable as either.
Besides, he claimed PHP was unsuitable for large projects not merely that there were better choices. PHP is suitable and demonstrably so. There are languages that aren't, like VB. There are no large projects primarily written in VB for this reason despite the fact that vb was extremely popular.
'It has been applied, but the GP said that it still isn't suitable.'
My argument wasn't that PHP was popularly used. My argument was that php is a tool which has been used to successfully create numerous large scale projects. What makes a language suitable for large scale projects? The ability to use said language to successfully develop a large scale project.
The GP didn't merely say there were better tools but that PHP was unsuitable (and therefore incapable) for use in large projects.
'Which major company uses PHP?'
What do companies have to do with anything?
'PHP apps often look like this [photopumpkin.com], and just because many people in the world do it that way, it doesn't mean that it's good.'
Along with apps in every other language. You can write code that WORKS that way in python (since for some reason seeing that brings to mind the gospel of the mindless zombies of the church of python) it will just look pretty and organized while it does it.
'"X has been used for Y" does not demonstrate that "X is suitable for Y".'
Fine. For the sake of pedantic. PHP has been used in many large scale projects that work well for the task for which they were designed. Demonstrating that the GP is incorrect.
Happy now? We are talking about coding. If the result functions and well then the language was suitable to create it, end of story. Something else might have been MORE suitable but that is another matter.
Spyware generally won't show in your process list anymore and the latest generation of spyware must all be manually cleaned.
You can fight it and maybe eventually win but in most cases you are better off backing up your data and reinstalling windows.
I don't see many viruses anymore, spyware is the most likely.
Paid windows fanboy shill mods are out since the minor apache contribution MS made. Anything that even hints negative to MS is being modded into oblivion.
PHP has been applied to many large scale development projects, demonstrating that you are incorrect. Don't misconstrue your own preference for one language over another to mean that a language is inferior or unsuitable.
That's just wrong. C != C++ and C# is another animal altogether.