Slashdot Mirror
Obama Sides With Bush In Spy Case
palegray.net is one of many who writes "President Obama has publicly sided with the Bush administration on the question of whether the President should be allowed to establish warrantless wiretapping programs designed to monitor US citizens. The President has asked a federal judge to stay a ruling that would allow key evidence into the domestic spying case against the government. 'Thursday's filing by the Obama administration marked the first time it officially lodged a court document in the lawsuit asking the courts to rule on the constitutionality of the Bush administration's warrantless-eavesdropping program.'" jamie points out that Obama's views and opinions were made clear through his Senate vote and numerous public statements, but many others see this as a disappointing start to an administration promising transparency and openness.
So much for not sacrificing ideals for safety.
Asshole.
Finally, change we can believe in!
You don't make the poor richer by making the rich poorer. - Winston Churchill
Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.
different names,
different faces,
now different color,
same taste...
enjoy freedom,
enjoy while you can
Well now, that depends on who is being held open now, doesn't it?
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Change! Change! Change!
..Oh bummer =(
and it has no side to it to be defended.
Read radical news here
Or just people in the US?
Is there a distinction at all?
Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
I did not trust this new Administration during his campaign. And when he was elected, I felt that the promise was for more government ineptitude, but at least he would discontinue the idiocy of the 43 president.... I cannot believe this... Less than a week in office and he shows his SUPPORT for this wanton imorality.
http://www.allen-poole.com/
Obama might not always be right.
Bush might not have always been wrong.
There just might be a valid reason for this (then again there might not be).
They guy has been in office less than a week. Progress has already been made.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
It's unfortunate to see this occur with the new administration however, it shouldn't be nearly as shocking to people that it occured. Congress has for the most part been under the control of the democratic party [including obama] whilst going along with authoritarian policies...
They're going to get RARE!! (unless they're all of the sudden then mandated by "Executive Order").
"Don't be evil*"
*for small values of "evil"
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
Bullshit!
The other day, someone on the radio commented that the Obama administration is shaping up to be "bush on steroids". I fervently hope that's wrong.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Let us think back to Bush's speeches and promises, and how he failed on nearly every one.
But, the people who screamed 'traitor' at the anti-war activist and supported Bush to the bitter end have suddenly found the ability to criticize our president during wartime.
The HURRRRRRRRRRRRrrrtastic tags tell the story of astro-turfing conservatives.
At least this economy has the low-income trailer-park republicans finally signing up to fight their war.
Blar.
My hope is that the True Believers get so pissed at Obama that they want to lynch him - that means he is probably taking middle of the road policies and compromising on things. You know - governing.
On another board someone noted that the President Elect walked into his first intelligence briefing smiling fr the cameras and he came out looking like he'd been hit between the eyes with a hammer. Hopefully that was a solid reminder that "governing" is different than "campaigning".
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
That's a very misleading way to state it. What happened, was, the Obama people asked for a stay of the Judge's motion pending appeal.
It's not an endorsement, as you might think from the summary and linked article, of the policy. It's a procedural move.
I'm not saying that Obama doesn't or won't back Bush's view. Just that this particular filing doesn't support that conclusion in a meaningful way.
LMAO with this article I just won $100..I made that bet during the election and it paid off, tell the people one thing and do another.
5...4...3..2..1.. The only change we'll be seeing is the removal of our right to be able to defend ourselves. Say goodbye to your firearms, hello to more government intrusion into your life. Only now, there's no way to control government. At least he's going to live up to his promises. Change we can believe in!
Warning: Corny karma killing post above.
Looks like he may have the balls to think for himself and not just be a goose-stepping, koolaide drinking Dem. Pelosi must be having a fit...LOL
Warrantless wiretaps are good now. You see, they weren't good before. But they are good now.
Anyone who can't see that is a racist reactionary.
Obama is listening to my calls where I tell my friends to come watch a movie or tell my mom to stop calling. How can you do this to me Barack??
Unless you actually plan on doing something horrific and are dumb enough to talk about it over a phone this shouldn't be a problem. The worst thing I can think about it is, how much money are they spending spying on everyone?
It's not like murdering civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq is going to be something Obama's policies can even touch.
It'll take a big BIG mistake to get people to remove those bumper stickers. Kinda like how the W stickers started dissapearing in 2005 :)
Maybe you should spend less time crying about government intrusion, and more time getting in shape? Dropping the weight and being more active will make you feel more positive and less of a failure.
Blar.
Everything you do pisses everyone off, equally!
Really, I'm just withholding comment until some form of long-term context is established.
-Rob
Biblical fiscal responsibility
Proving my position once again.
Vote for real change.
Not Democrap or Republicant.
Meet the new boss,
Air guitar riff
Same as the old boss...
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Get what you voted...
I wonder what they think of the missiles that hit Pakistan today? I am sure they were approved by the President. You know, the "O" not the "W".
The fact that he asked for a stay doesn't indicate much of anything, particularly since a lot of the people at the DOJ right now are Bush appointees (you know the type) who really need to be fired ASAP. By all means, we should be making as much noise about this as possible, but it doesn't automatically mean that Obama is pro-wiretapping.
jamie points out that Obama's views and opinions were made clear through his Senate vote and numerous public statements
in which he said that he was going to help filibuster the Senate bill that he then voted for. Whoops.
This is so obviously FUD. The administration ordered a stay on all pending regulation and issues from the Bush Administration and this case happens to be one of them. So, what does someone looking to nail Obama do.. "oh well, they aren't immediately disavowing this terrible, terrible injustice, therefore, well they must be complicit!" Shake, stir, and toss to the usual gang of idiots on Slashdot and voila.. A major out of context brouhahah is born! Get a grip, morons.
What would Richard Feynman do, if he were here right now? He'd do some math and he'd follow through!
It's like the saying goes. There're two types of criminals; the ones holding office, and the ones that haven't been elected yet.
I have nothing compelling to say
Let us think back to Bush's speeches and promises, and how he failed on nearly every one.
What about the part where he promised to help stabilize Iraq?
What about where he promised we'd see no new terrorist attacks on American soil?
There's a lot of things to dislike Bush over, like spending for one. But Bush has delivered on some huge promises, as much as many here are not willing to admit that or dislike some means uses to accomplish this end.
It only stands to reason that Obama would like to continue successes on both agendas.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
All Your Base are belong to us.
Nothing changes in Washington... Next time I'm voting Communist..
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
Everything else, who gives a shit.
Blar.
President Obama 'orders Pakistan drone attacks'
"Missiles fired from suspected US drones killed at least 15 people inside Pakistan today, the first such strikes since Barack Obama became president and a clear sign that the controversial military policy begun by George W Bush has not changed."
"...locals also said that three children lost their lives."
Attacking sovereign nations and killing children...that's the change Americans voted in, as in, not change at all.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
The summary and the article it links to make it seem like much more of a big deal than it actually is:
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/files/alharamainobama.pdf
It's a procedural motion for a stay pending appeal. It's not a policy endorsement, it's them looking to have the judge's ruling put on hold until appeals are over.
That's not to say that Obama won't wind up agreeing with Bush on this, just that this particular filing doesn't actually indicate that.
For those who defended Bush seizing these powers and attacked those of us who opposed such as "supporting the terrorists", enjoy those selfsame powers in the hands of him who many of you seemed to fear most.
On the plus side, at least now you may take actions in your self-interest that mesh with those in the principled opposition.
"I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
It was politics all along.
A court just recently affirmed the legality of it. Obama continues in the tradition.
The reality is that this stuff has done on for decades. The tradition is that any intelligence collected could not be used to build a case against a US citizen. It is not admissible in court. You cannot be prosecuted based on the intelligence.
Call Detail Records and metadata are owned by the telco's and are therefore proprietary and not private. They can do whatever they want with them.
The *only* thing that has changed is that the wall between the FBI and the NSA built during the Clinton administration was torn down. NSA/CIA can now give leads to the FBI that can be taken to a FISA court. The court can provide a retroactive warrant. Only after FISA court approval can the FBI and the Justice Department use the lead to build a case.
They elected a politician for president!!!
How could this have happened?
wtb a much needed change from the "change we need"
I RTFA, and the wording is confusing me slightly.
All it seems like he did is say that "The Government's position remains that this case should be stayed"
Also:
"Thursday's filing by the Obama administration marked the first time it officially lodged a court document in the lawsuit asking the courts to rule on the constitutionality of the Bush administration's warrantless-eavesdropping program."
To me, the above sounds like he wants to MAKE SURE the courts rule on whether or not it was legal for Bush to do the warrantless wiretapping
worse, I lost any respect for Republicans for not stopping Geitner at the committee level.
This whole Administration is starting too look like Clinton The New Generation... new face at the top but the base looks rotten.
After Congress gets done stimulating themselves when will someone look at us and see what we want?
Obama was supposed to represent change yet the only change he represents is there is now a "D" next to the office affiliation. Now that he is in all the abuses of power he decried during the campaign are too valuable to be given up even though some should for what is best for America.
I was hoping we were not going to be stuck with another rubber stamping President, because in the end that was Bush's biggest fault. I don't want a President who wants to be friends with Congress. I want a President who is friends with us first. He is supposed to be the voice of the nation, not his party and certainly not special interest. He interests should be us.
There is always a chance he will grow a pair and go a new direction but it doesn't look good that he has passed the first few ramps on the interstate of government. His Gitmo decision sounded real good till you read the fine print, they have a year to change their minds. His appointment scream "continue the course" and this decision is more of the same. His recent declaration that Congress was on the right path with the stimulus package really pissed me off. Right course for who?
I guess the lesson learned under Bush will need four more years to be learned, that for every grandiose name they use just think of the exact opposite and that will be reality.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Morality aside, who would give up that much power if they were offered it?
It took Nixon and Watergate for Congress to strip the president and administration of their power the last time such powers were reduced, and 9/11 for Congress to give back that power.
Nothing short of a Congressional revolt similar to what took place during Watergate will force *any* president to give up those powers.
Obama will in all probability be a much better president than Bush, but that doesn't mean that he's going to give up those presidential powers just to win brownie points from the ACLU.
This space left intentionally blank.
I go to pro-choice rallies
Recycle my cans and jars
I'll honk if you love the Dead
Hope those funny grunge bands become stars
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me
I'm a liberal
Yeh, I read the New Republic
Rolling Stone and Mother Jones too
If I vote it's a Democrat
With a sensible economy view
But when it comes to terrorist Arabs
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me
I'm a liberal
From Jello Biafra's remake of the Phil Ochs song.
Seriously though, you just have to look at Obama's record to see that he was basically cut from the same cloth as Clinton and FDR. Both presidents who continued/expanded the role of government for security and social purposes. If you liked them you'll probably like Obama. As a libertarian-leaning person, I think he'll be a refreshing change from the last 8 years, and marginally better than McCain, but doesn't represent any significant change in the political spectrum of the last 50 years. Just another period in the spiral of expansionism.
And the thing is he has never really represented himself as anything different. You have this very charismatic leader, that agrees with you on some issues and suddenly people start fooling themselves into believing he is everything they want him regardless of what he says. I can't count how many times I've heard, "well he has to say that to get elected" over the last 6 months. Those people are now going to be shocked that he is doing the exact thing he promised, in addition to the normal broken campaign promises.
Yet another example that while we may be led to believe otherwise.. a wolf will always be a wolf despite the fact that it may sometimes be dressed in sheep's clothing.
Didn't it occur to anyone here that Obama's attorney general pick hasn't even been confirmed yet? Obama is only nominally in charge of the DOJ at this point. So who do you think it is filing these papers? Well, the names are right in the PDF, starting with Michael F. Hertz. Yes, Michael F. Hertz, Deputy Assistant Attorney General under Alberto Gonzales.
My hand to God. Baby geese. Goslings. They were juggled.
I don't go to church, but I pay so others can go even though I think it is a hateful waste of time.
I am a product of my society, and have no problem giving back some of my wealth to help my less fortunate fellow citizens.
I do not agree with most 'welfare' programs that hand out money, but health care is worth the cost.
Blar.
Folks,
This sucks. However let's keep in mind that the order to close the detention/torture center at Gitmo has gone out, and to close the CIA detention centers, and the order to err on the side of disclosure in FOIA cases.
Let's keep in mind that it's a request for stay, not the last word. But it looks like Obama isn't on our side regarding this issue, and we might have to work for a long time to win it. Consider what we are winning so far, and keep on working. We were never going to get a candidate elected who agreed with us on everything.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
What is trumping is not safety at all, but fear for your safety, which is a very different thing. I challenge anyone to show that we are actually safer now than we were 8 years ago.
Despite all the "sacrifices" that have been made regarding rights, I don't think so.
(Note: I put "sacrifices" in quotes, because it order for someone to truly sacrifice something, it has to be given not taken.)
This doesn't mean anything, hes just putting it on hold.
in this document? Does that look like his Attorney General's name to you? No, that's Deputy Assistant Attorney General Michael F. Hertz, who served under Alberto Gonzales; Obama's AG hasn't been confirmed yet.
The US government didn't magically transform itself at the stroke of noon on Tuesday.
My hand to God. Baby geese. Goslings. They were juggled.
But this is Slashdot and dupes can be expected. Obama likely has minimal control over the agencies, and the majority of people in said agencies are likely to be highly intelligent but paranoid, delusional, quite likely poorly educated - ignorance and fear are far more often partnered than wisdom and fear.
Tackling the problem isn't about tacking one individual here, one individual there. For every ill or ignorant person convicted in the courts, there'll be ten more to promote to that spot and a thousand more applying for the job.
If you seriously want to deal with the issue, you must not permit it to feed society as a whole with the seeds of insanity that create the kind of person who would happily spy on their own people and corrupt their own nation.
Oh, and bear in mind, the last time this agency got hauled into court was by Airbus for industrial espionage and passing of trade secrets to Boeing. So don't for a moment think that these delusions are useful this time around.
Better education and greater awareness of how fear is an infectious cancer would starve such programs of recruits, in the long-term. In the short-term, there is nothing the citizenry can do and quite possibly nothing the President can do. Congress got told to STFU by the NSA, last time they investigated a program they regarded as suspicious.
My take: let's wait this out. It's very important to keep in line, but keep in mind that the AG and new justice dept. aren't even appointed.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
Let's hypothesize that Bush/Obama are acting in good faith, and let's use as many weasel words in their favor as possible.
That leaves us with a situation where it appears (apparently deceptively) that the government broke the law. The government does not want a court to review their actions to clear them of this wrongful accusation, because the evidence is a national security secret and could result in the deaths of many secret agents and programs and an inability to gather foreign intelligence in the future.
It is insufficient to seal this evidence and let the court review it behind closed doors, because...
I come up with a total blank. What am I missing? They think the judge will blab to Osama? I can't come up with a best case scenario that doesn't involve something ridiculous.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Obama is blocking almost every policy matter still pending from Bush. This is just one of many issues being blocked until the Obama administration can get caught up and take an official stance on it. He may well "side with Bush", but he hasn't really done so yet.
Hikery.net - The best hiking site ever. Made by yours truly.
Wasn't Obama's slogan "Yes we can!" ?
"many others see this as a disappointing start to an administration promising transparency and openness."
I have no qualms with warrantless wiretapping because I have nothing to hide.
Honestly if the government has to be transparent and open, so must the citizens.
Show me a goddamned declaration of war from congress (not just a resolution backing the President's actions). There is a difference.
Show me a draft notice.
Show me indications that they are actually trying to WIN over there, as opposed to just filling the pockets of the friends of politicians.
Show me a nation mostly convinced that we should be over there in the first place. (I don't think you can.)
If you think this is a war, then you have never been in a real war.
I really don't. Wiretap away I say.
All you idealogists are living in some kind of dream world. I'm positive our government did this type of thing prior to the current terror threats (you bet during the Cold War!). In fact, I expect them to. I'd be worried if they didn't.
The only difference is that now that secular progressivism rages and 'political correctness' rules the day, the media throws fits about this stuff, and well....so do the ignorant.
Did you really expect anything different?
You know how the saying goes, hope in one hand, shit in the other and see which one fills up faster.
But at least with my health insurance the insurance corp can't deny me coverage unless the doctor deems the procedure voluntary.
I think it's unfair to react knee-jerk to this and denounce the new President. He's been there for three whole days and is probably still learning where all the conference rooms and restrooms are. Jumping into the middle of an ongoing court case and having the lawyers completely overhaul the strategy that they've been working on for months or years would be one of the easiest ways to throw a monkey wrench into existing operations without having a full grasp of the entirety of the issue.
Give him six months, and THEN give him hell for supporting warrantless [and unconstitutional] wiretaps.
The Obama Administration did not explain their actions, and they may not be what so many of the /. crowd would like to think.
Obama has always been about a smooth transition and letting go of past distractions. Yes what happened under Bush was horrible, but let's just let it drop and move forward.
Also, the action by the Administration lawyers doesn't show support for Bush policies, but support for the way the Bush legal team was handling the case. I'm no laywer, but it appears the government simply wants a stay on decision of a lower court until an appeal can be lodged and decided. A perfectly reasonable request in my book, even if you want the government to lose the case.
I say, give it time before you jump to conclusions.
Sometimes the best solution is to stop wasting time looking for an easy solution.
I read a few of the comments following this story, and they all seem to have a similar theme of having a fairly negative POV about Obama's stand on this issue.
Rather than simply bitch about your spin on this, lets look at why he is doing this. IANAL, but it seems to me that he is holding on to secret information pending the outcome of legal process to determine if it is admissible evidence. This would seem to be prudent, as if it is admitted as evidence, it is no long really secret. Any lawyers out there, please jump if I am getting this wrong.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
What I'm not sure of is whether this action was taken at Obama's express order, or was taken by one of the civil servants who is still following Bush's policy?
In any case, Obama has barely had any time at all to really take control of the bureaucracy. I imagine a great many things are being done in his name that he would not want done right now, but it takes time to change the direction of a giant machine like the Executive Branch.
--PM
I'm sure after they catch Bin Laden they will type in, "LUCIUS FOX"
I'd like to see some discussion from someone more versed in the case and its legal proceedings before I make up my mind on this. I read TFA, and a couple of other similar articles, but also read the filing itself. Nothing from it led me to believe that the Obama administration was explicitly siding with Bush on this case, only that it was asking for a stay in proceedings until the appeal filed by Bush was handled. That seems reasonable to me, as the appeal had already been issued.
My questions for those more educated than myself on the matter is, would it have been more appropriate for Obama to ask that the appeal be dismissed outright and for the case to proceed? Would that cause more trouble for the case than simply reiterating that the case continue on the track that it had been when Bush left office?
Imagine how many people it must take to listen in to everyone's conversations. Now imagine all those poor people jobless. There's your problem.
How cute, you thought he was different than other politicians.
...it's like, a million liberal voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.
You know, I'm starting to look forward to the next 4 years more and more.
AAHAHAAHAHAHAH.
And I'll save you the trouble, TROLL +A MILLION.
-Styopa
I believe this comes under those "hard decisions" he mentioned in his speech. Those quotes aren't sarcastic, either.
he actually said that he would make decisions that we - presumably those both sides of the aisle - would not agree with. That is what he has done. I respect the man for keeping his word, for being able to make contentious decisions, contentious even to those who support him. I think he'll make a great leader. The best since FDR or Lincoln? Who can tell. But he has the taint of greatness about him. It depends whether or not you fags can keep up.
...that maybe, just maybe, Obama did this because when he finally got to the throne he learned the reasons this made it out there in the first place? That maybe, just maybe, there might be something, or some reason, that the mighty Slashdotters don't know? That when he sat down with everyone, he sat back and said "Oh, gee whiz, I hadn't realized that was why Bush & Co. did that. now I get it. Hmm. Maybe I shouldn't screw with it."
Baseless self confidence kills more people each year than bathtubs.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
You don't really think the establishment will relinquish control, do you?
Cuban prisons, reduction in funding for abortions or embrionic stem cells ... all stuff the big money does not really care about.
Most all of it is just window dressing.
I really hope I am wrong, but after raising that much cash for an election campaign, I almost don't want to know how long the list of people he owes is.
..a "stay" is just like hitting the pause button. Perhaps we're all jumping the gun here. It may be that (like so many things Bush left) Obama hasn't had time to review this case and filed to keep it paused until the Justice Dept. can give him an opinion.
Or, I could be totally wrong and DOOM is around the corner... ;)
Nitewing '98
Everything works...in theory.
If you want real change in government, work on the open source version.
...was before he even won the election, with his vote for FISA. :(
I thought I heard that last week?
Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling a pig in the mud. After a while, you realize the engineer enjoys it.
If you start with ECHELON, then you kinda gotta assume that State of the Art follows the same "sipping from a fire hose" logic, only better. The new electronic lingua franca for communications of all kinds, where the phone company is just one more client for terabytes of available bandwidth (so to speak), sort of requires you to listen to everyone if you want to listen to anyone. You have to dumb down to one channel of interest somehow. IMHO, you could make an argument that First Amendment freedom of the press protects the right to listen as well as the right to mouth off, so the NSA gets a pass on that one. They have to listen to the 99.44% of /. that's utter drivel (of course, this ain't that ;-)
``Tension, apprehension & dissension have begun!'' - Duffy Wyg&, in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_
You are free to do so, I also believe in that, may I recommend the organization I use do distribute my wealth?
I also give some of my money to a health insurance policy. Everyone who believes in having some security against unforeseen health problems are also free to do so. But I also believe in freedom of choice. I'm free to choose the exact level of protection I want. I don't want to be spoon-fed with a health insurance plan.
Did I make a wrong choice? Ooops! Perhaps I didn't have the health insurance I needed, perhaps I crossed the street at the wrong time, perhaps I ate the wrong mushroom. But at least it was *MY* choice, I'd rather die of a disease my health insurance didn't cover than from a disease the State Health Insurance Plan didn't provide for.
...enganar al publico americano.
"The purpose of learning is growth, and our minds, unlike our bodies, can continue growing as long as we live." - M.J. A
The blinders that rich people in the US use to not see the large percentage of the population which isn't well off are are amazing. There are a shitload of people for whom a 60" HDTV is just not an option, and for whom lack of health care insurance is a real hardship.
Loose lips lose spit.
about the 9/11 perpetrators running around the tribal areas of pakistan, and pakistan's inability to control the area or find the perps
or i suppose looking bad to other countries is a crime only the usa can be guilty of
the desire to see al qaeda assholes in pakistan's hinterlands punished is universal: liberal americans, conservative americans, radicals of all flavors
so remind me again about what the justified hunt for al qaeda has to with electing "liars" please?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
ZOMG! He disagreed with us on something on his third full day in office! We're all gonna die!
Quick, everyone! Man the rapid-fire backtracker! Maybe if we all act smug and condescending and pretend we could all see this coming twenty years ago, we'll Win(tm)!
*grumble*grumble* Yeah, the cracks are showing already. Remember that time when he was in grade school and he was trying to get answers from the kid in front of him? Yeah, yeah, if you SHEEPLE would've seen the signs, you wouldn't be so very very stupid and wrong, but now I am right and your new savior. *grumble*grumble*
Grumble LOUDER, people! Show MORE contempt! THE SHEER CLEVERNESS OF THE WORD "SHEEPLE" WILL FRY EVERYONE'S BRAINS INTO LIKING US!!!
And this, my friends, is why I vote Libertarian. It doesn't matter which of the two big parties is in office. Either way, the government is just going to get bigger and bigger, and our list of freedoms is going to get smaller and smaller.
I only hope I'll live long enough to see the day when a president is finally elected who believes in small government and freedom for all, like our founding fathers did. As it stands now, we seem to be moving ever closer to a totalitarian regime with each new president who's elected. I just hope I can get out of here before soldiers start getting posted on every street corner.
I wonder, when America does finally get to that point, do you think the new Democratic Iraq and Afghanistan will show up to unseat our leaders? It'd be kind of ironic to hear them going on about "The Middle-Eastern Man's Burden." Maybe they'll find some weapons of mass destruction here, while they're at it.
He's in bed with the 2 party ruling class. What did you expect?
"would leave unresolved complex questions surrounding the closing of the Guantanamo prison, including whether, where and how many of the detainees are to be prosecuted. They could also allow Mr. Obama to reinstate the CIA's detention and interrogation operations in the future, by presidential order, as some have argued would be appropriate if Osama Bin Laden or another top-level leader of Al Qaeda were captured."
He's left himself a backdoor for warrantless wiretap searches(as this article/summary shows); for continued CIA interrogation techniques he's supposedly ending today; and for keeping Gitmo open, should we capture the right people.
that there is more here than just spying? Or that the FULL extent of spying is MUCH MUCH more than just spying on all Americans? If so, then Obama MUST stop this information getting out. Think that Sibel Edmund's gag order was JUST about the nukes, the treason, and incompetence in our INTEL? Not even close.
This is what he did on his first day: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ExecutiveOrderPresidentialRecords/ http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ExecutiveOrder-EthicsCommitments/ Not too shabby.
Now there's a surprise. So is this the change people were hoping for?
Liberty in your lifetime
That's because 40% of American households earn less than 40k a year. Four thousand dollars is at least ten percent of their entire yearly income, before taxes, assuming that they have insurance that pays.
If they already have one child, that's basically out of their reach. And these people are not dropping money on anything but bills.
The reason you can't incentivize health care by rewarding treatment is because everyone becomes over-treated, and there's a big difference between how much having a baby actually costs and how much people are willing to pay for it. Just like utilities such as water and electricity would be far more expensive if they weren't regulated.
Single payer systems work all across the rest of the western world, even in Britain, where they have nearly the same obesity rates and exercise habits. Just allow everyone who wants to keep their private health care to keep paying for it and receive a tax credit.
The US population in late middle age is less healthy than the equivalent British population for diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, myocardial infarction, stroke, lung disease, and cancer.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/295/17/2037
Democracy cannot survive when the rulers can keep secrets from the people.
And this case is a complete joke. Really? It is a secret? Seriously? Is it still a secret when like 7 billion people know it? Who exactly are we still hiding the secret from? Mr Magoo?
"This country was bought and paid for a long time ago."
In addition, "Garbage in, garbage out."
Too legit to quit - can't touch this. Lovely.
Try 10 dollar per day.
http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats
"Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
All the Obamafanboys have to be pulling their hair out now!
Just because somebody makes $10 a day doesn't mean I'm rich because I make $30 an hour. Everything is relative.
You better get at least 63" for that kinda scratch.
Get a rope.
Somebody?
At least 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 a day.
Everything is relative. True.
You are relatively rich ; ).
"Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
They said:
an administration promising transparency and openness
No one said anything about accountability, we charge extra for that!
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Laziness is the father.
You probably support nationalized healthcare for every US citizen (and possibly non-citizens here illegally). So much for not sacrificing ideals for safety.
I think my UK friends will disagree when they do the conversion...£15/hour! Where does he work...McDonalds???
I don't speak French; can you repeat that in Freedom please?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
To anyone wondering how many of these racist ACs are actually registered users in good standing you should check out the mod on parent comment.
ATM it is 0 Flamebait with the following percentages:
50% Flamebait
30% Insightful
20% Underrated
Let's see.
Leftist Socialist Leanings = Big Government
Big Government = Loss of personal freedoms.
hmm...
Yeah, I saw that one coming a mile away.
Oh don't forget it all in the name of safety and security and think of the childern.
my quote, "if your house has bars on the windows it's not a house it's a fancy jail cell"
I don't believe some of you understand the provisions around a warrentless wiretap. The government can only ask for a warrentless wiretap if and only if one of the people on the phone is a non-American and outside of this country. With this provision, I don't see how this is an issue. If you were to enter this country through customs, you do not have rights to prevent your luggage from being searched. This is the exact same policy except it is over the phone.
Don't mean to point out the obvious, but TFA states that Obama's now the defendant, not Bush, because Obama's now the president. Requesting a stay only means that he's buying some time. I'd do the same if I found myself in a new job being sued for what my predecessor did.
On the other hand, he can disagree with spying on US citizens but still support immunity for the telecoms. A private company (or individual) should not be punished for cooperating with the government when the government was doing something illegal. Sure, its a Nuremberg defense, but the difference here is that we're talking about a legally ambiguous request, not a heinous immoral act like genocide or DRM.
People are entitled to their opinions, as politically incorrect or bigoted as they may be.
I never usually pay attention to FPs, but I suspect that whoever modded it insightful was just pissed about Obama's hypocrisy on this issue and chose a poor way to show it - still though, like the Jewish lawyer who has vigorously defended the KKK or white supremacists (I think it was the klan but can't remember) on first amendment grounds, I may not agree with someone's point of view or may find it infantile, bigoted, pointless or personally highly offensive - but I still support their being able to say it.
The first blow was massive appointment of Czars to take running things out of the hands of the secretaries, etc. That was a method of bypassing congress and the system of checks and balances.
This is the second blow. Trust me, there are plenty yet to come. Did you actually believe a real person would be allowed to get press coverage as a presidential candidate? Let alone be party nominated? The parties are all on the same team, and it isn't our team.
"...but I still support their being able to say it."
Do you support the continued supply of mod points to these moderators though?
Is the old metamod system still in play? Did I opt out when I went with the Beta index? If it is still around I should mention that I get mod points all the time but no metamod invitations anymore.
The sin has already been committed. If this evidence can be used to seal the case on someone who needs to Go Away, then so be it.
That said, the warrentless wiretaps stop Now.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
the false kind.
I promise to end all the bad stuff that person A did. Become president, become privy to information that's super top secret president level stuff. Oh, um, we learn lots and stopped x number of bad things in a quasi-legal way. Oh, the stuff we stopped, it's super top secret president level stuff, I can't tell you. Sorry about making a promise on a uninformed issue that only 3 people know about.
Who are "these moderators?" Is it more than one?
Certainly a post as offensive as that one and with as many different sorts of moderations is going to be tackled by metamoderation.
I guess I feel like it will be sorted out in meta moderation - that if someone is truly abusing their mod points that's going to come out....
I mean - by and large I think the moderation system works, everyone has had a post poorly moderated, or had someone mod a post for what seems like petty personal reasons, but democratic type of system is always open to a little abuse.
As for the second question, i dunno..I get mod points all of the time and still see the metamod link at the top after modding things....One thing I have noticed is that the entire site doesn't seem to work properly in IE7, but I usually use chrome or Firefox.
That might be the only remaining function of democracy in the US, letting the population take turns saying it's not their fault. ;)
FRA: STFU GTFO
As a general rule, poor people create more poor people. ("poor" is associated with violence and stupidity)
Do we want to be a nation of poor people? That's what we get if we keep them alive. That's what we get when they breed.
Keep that up, and we'll be a 3rd world country in no time.
Letting the poor people die is surely no worse than your example of Norway letting the elderly die. It's still letting people die. While the elderly may be mostly useless, at least they don't make more elderly.
I believe in America, too, but in constitutional American principles, not politicians. I am NOT in fact a liberal, but I am a skeptic, and I appreciate your tongue-in-cheek comment.
Patients should be paying for accident/disability
insurance if they want a big payout when a doctor
screws up. That "if" matters; nobody should be
forced to have these costs.
Doctors should never pay. If they screw up because
of incompetence, they should lose their career.
If they screw up because they want to do harm,
they should lose their freedom: go to jail.
Right now, as a patient, I'm paying crazy bills
in part because there are people who habitually
sue the doctors. I want to opt out, and I don't
want my doctor being a middleman passing money
from me to a malpractice insurance company.
"but if you're obese, its YOUR fault and YOU need to get your diet under control. Instead of making excuses (or letting others do it for them) these people need to act."
Ok.....
Whole foods, and foods not built around cheap fillers and/or laden with cheap processed sugars are ....
EXPENSIVE to those less capable of funds. I used to run 50 miles or more a month, own 2 businesses, and truly believed that if you didn't have something it's because you weren't trying hard enough.
Wrong.
some are gifted with affluence and/or influence from birth. Some have a natural genetic tendency towards being thin. Some of us were born with exceptional intellect.
I have two young daughters, one eats a fair amount, the other EATS. They both don't remotely exercise enough. One has an absolutely perfect figure by magazine standards, the other will suffer verbally from ignorant asshats like you. The "fat" one eats less, btw. she is intellectually gifted. The other is very normal.
I would spew senseless vitriol at you, but instead, I recommend you try to not be completely ignorant when making definitive statements.
Stupid fuck.
Where does that $5K come from, on $400 per week? Taking the worst-case stereotype of societal leech and applying it to all less wealthy U.S. citizens is a sad attempt to validate your opinion.
Having known many people earning far less than 50k per year as a -family-, I will tell you that I have proof that your generalization is exactly that, or worse, completely misrepresenting the situation. The people that I know and have known in these classes are largely motivated and hard working people that do not carry debt. Your apparently "measly" $4000 delivery represents over 2 month's pay for too many people. while they are saving for that for those nine months, may they please be allowed to have shelter,food, and some type of transport to work? I realize that you probably believe that any idiot can make big money, since, after all, you do, but that skews with reality.
I have no sympathy for people that overspend themselves into oblivion. I also cannot understand how people can honestly feel that being poor is only caused by lack of motivation, or a personal failure.
I used to puzzle at why people would ever drive around on bald tires. Surely, they are capable of putting safety as a priority, right?
I now realize that eating and continuing to not freeze to death might be the priority for many Americans.
We aren't all fat, lazy, ignorant, and rich. some of us just catch a bad break, or can't get a lucky break. For those people, a $1000 bill for delivery can't be paid any time soon by selling their 10 year old 27 inch tube set.
I personally am currently unemployed, and face many obstacles to getting re-employed. Should I be selling everything i've worked for the last 10 years, if I get sick? I don't expect anyone to repair 4th or 5th gears on my expensive transmission, but I won't turn down help with medical bills, since I paid into a system that is bailing out the richest men and women in America's businesses.
The picture is big. And I don't have a big screen TV.
I suppose I could count the opportunity cost of a wife who stays at home, but that was a given.
There is some trivial increase in food for a pregnant woman. It costs $0 to birth a child, or $2000 if you insist on a midwife. You don't need a breat pump, bottles, infant formula, a crib, a walker, a play pen, a changing table, jars of icky baby food, or a stroller. Many of those things are definitely harmful. A knotted sheet makes a fine baby sling. You might need some cloth diapers or a car seat. Laundry costs go up a bit. (note: even without a baby, you're already burning money if you don't have your own washing equipment) You can get hand-me-down clothes from nearly everybody it seems, without even asking.
Even getting up into the school age years, it's still dirt cheap.
Teenagers may be another matter. Fortunately, they can earn their own keep. :-)
Those germs didn't come from nowhere. It sounds like you might have been much better off somewhere other than that hospital.
If you want the most exotic infection, there is one place where you can certainly find the germs: your local hospital.
you don't DESERVE children
You obviously can't afford the basics in life. Adding children won't help at all. It will mean somebody has to stay home instead of earning an income, or that you pay money for a lousy mother substitute.
Obviously your children will live in poverty. Obviously they will take after their parents to some degree, creating more poverty in the next generation.
Please stop. You're hurting my economy, and humanity in general.
Change!
The one word that he campaigned with.
He is just a different side of the same dollar.
WHere are the fuel taxes? Kyoto agreement? Iraq demobilisation? Closing down of > 10% of the bases on foreign soil?
The dollar is worthless and what is he doing to fix that? Create more dollars.
Let us watch what (positive) change Os^Hbama will bring.
"Wait a minute... this 'being president' stuff is harder than I thought."
Maybe, just maybe there is a Secret Truth(tm) only available to the people at the very top, and the rest of us should just shut up, except to say "thank you" every so often? Have you considered that?
based on their campaign promises or the fact that they're far more well-elocuted that their predecessors.
For people to give that trust to a politician -- any politician -- is a recipe for disappointment.
>"... but many others see this as a disappointing start to an administration promising transparency and openness."
Well they are making citizens more transparent and open... to the government.
Life expectancy is shortened by violence and auto accidents.
US mortality compares favorably when age and diagnosis match.
Anyone who doesn't understand by now that Democrats are just Republican-Lite needs to have their heads examined.
Should I get my "I told you so" bumper sticker out yet, or should I wait for a couple of more bomb shells? Mark one up for informed voters and mark one down for the cult of personality.
I agree that what we're charged for the births that go smoothly is crazy, but look at infant (and mother) mortality rates from 70 years ago and tell me that birth is a normal process that shouldn't happen in a hospital.
I say this as a father who paid $8,0000 each for the births of my three sons (I had a very high deductible on my insurance; I'm a software contractor). All went smoothly, or it would have cost at least triple that.
From the perspective of what services we got, it was insanely expensive, although less so than the $1,000 we paid to get *one stitch* in my son's lip through the ER. But from the perspective of my wife and children having the support they needed to survive the process in case of a problem, it was a fantastic bargain.
That all said, we're moving somewhere with national health care, although our actual primary motivation is to get somewhere with clean air, a good educational system, and good public transportation. (We live in the US now.)
This guy has been getting the Presidential Daily Brief and operating from his Office of the President Elect ever since the election with the blessings of the old regime. To say he's only been in "office" three days is, while factual, somewhat disingenuous.
In reality, Obama has been on the job for months now. It's just he's now in the position of a dog who finally got his jaws on the bumper of the car he's been chasing. And, like the dog, he's trying to figure out what to do. After all, this President has had ZERO experience as an executive for any government entity. Being chief executive is NOTHING like being a legislator.
He may think he runs things but Nancy and Harry have other ideas.
Oh my, the hangover is beginning already.
Sorry. The R's want to keep gay people 2nd class and want to put more religion in our government.
Those two issues alone are enough for me to choose one side over the other.
I support 3rd party candidates on a local and state level.
Blar.
This is about as much of a troll as TFA...oh wait, modded appropriately, then.
See, I don't cry about my taxes. I pay them happily. I fear that were these minimal health care standards not funded by taxation, they would not be met. Why? Because of all the people crying that taxes are too high. They don't complain about the principle of paying taxes, they complain about not having their money. This makes me think they would be selfish if not forced to give a lowest-common-denominator damn for their fellow man.
Blar.