Microsoft Brings Back DRM

Barence writes "Microsoft yesterday unveiled its MSN Mobile Music service — and a surprise return to digital rights management (DRM). While companies such as Apple and Amazon have finally moved to music download services free of copy protection, MSN Mobile locks tracks to the mobile handset they are downloaded to. It also charges more than the other services per track, and offers no way to transfer your tracks to your new phone when you upgrade. The company's Head of Mobile UK spoke to PC Pro about the launch, but his answers are almost as baffling as the service itself. Best quote: Q: 'If I buy these songs on your service — and they're locked to my phone — what happens when I upgrade my phone in six months' time?' A: 'Well, I think you know the answer to that.'"

Comments

Clueless

[alain94040]

So many great quotes from a certain Hugh Griffiths, Head of Mobile at Microsoft UK:

We'll be looking to enhance the service if we get some interest from consumers

PR101: Don't tell journalists that no one cares about your product.

At the moment we don't have the functionality in-house to provide a mechanism for transferring between mobile phones and PC

CS101: Microsoft doesn't have the technology in-house to do a simple file transfer?

I didn't realise phones were churning that quickly in the marketplace these days

How clueless can you be? This guy almost makes me feel good about the other news of the day (Microsoft to laying off 5,000).

I suspect a Microsoft conspiracy to reassure their shareholders that indeed, getting rid of deadwood will not hurt business, on the contrary! He is a living proof (assuming he is one of the "chosen").

--
FairSoftware.net -- where geeks are their own boss

Re:Clueless

[Chyeld]

Actually I read it as more arrogant than clueless, or perhaps hostile would be the word. He definately didn't defend as much as say "Yeah, we don't care" to most of the questions.

Re:Clueless

[m509272]

They mistakenly missed this guy.....

Re:Clueless

[LWATCDR]

All I can say is... Wow... What the heck? Was this a joke or did he really say those things?
This sounds like something you would see on Futurama.

A reporter talking to Mom talking about Moms Music Network.
"If I buy these songs on your service - and they're locked to my phone - what happens when I upgrade my phone in six months' time?"

Mom: "Well, I think you know the answer to that."

Bender; "Your boned!"

Re:Clueless

[Jabbrwokk]

This dipshit probably has a golden parachute clause in his contract somewhere. They always do. Maybe he's the idiot nephew of someone high-up in Redmond, that's why he's with Microsoft Mobile UK, they sent him off where they thought he couldn't do any real harm. Woops.

Re:Clueless

[evilkasper]

I see this service being less popular than the Zune.

Re:Clueless

[tkrotchko]

">I didn't realise phones were churning that quickly in the marketplace these days

How clueless can you be? This guy almost makes me feel good about the other news of the day (Microsoft to laying off 5,000)."
----

This jumped out at me as well. I suspect he was being both sarcastic and a little clueless. That was one of the last questions that was asked, many of them questioning the business model, pricing, DRM. This guy was looking for the "gee, what an exciting service!" kind of non-question. I suspect he was fed up with the questioner by this point.

I'm assuming he must understand the churn rate for phone, right? It's probably more than a year, less than two. But I can't imagine he would expect people to pay about $3.50 (1.79 pounds) for songs to throw away; at least he couldn't expect people to buy many songs at this price.

Perhaps he's counting on the phones being so locked down that you must buy the songs from MS?

Re:Clueless

[nine-times]

He definately didn't defend as much as say "Yeah, we don't care" to most of the questions.

To my ears it sounded a little different. It was more like, "We don't know what we're doing, we're semi-incompetent, and I'm generally unprepared for your questions, but maybe we'll figure this out before the project gets abandoned."

Re:Clueless

[jayhawk88]

Man it really is as bad as the summary makes it.

With the likes of iTunes and Amazon offering DRM-free music that you can play on any device, why would anyone choose the MSN Mobile service?

There may well be people who just want to listen to the track on their mobile alone.

Yeah and there may well be people with severe OCD who purchase music from your store and then immediately delete it because the bits didn't download in the right order, but I wouldn't bet the farm on chasing that demographic.

Jesus, they seem to be basing the whole thing on the hope that they can trick people into thinking they have to buy music from the MSN store if they have a Windows Mobile device. What the hell is that shit about "loyal to MSN". What? If anyone uses MSN it's because it came up by default in IE and they're too stupid to figure out how to change it. My mom might use MSN, but you can be damn sure she's not going to be buying music for her mobile phone anytime soon. Way to know your audience there pal.

Good grief, someone needs to post a 24 hour guard by this guy, Ballmer is going to disappear his ass posthaste.

Re:Clueless

[_Sprocket_]

How clueless can you be? This guy almost makes me feel good about the other news of the day (Microsoft to laying off 5,000).

What you lack is perspective. You see, the whole time the individual was thinking "fuck you." But he managed to come up with different answers. See? There's a marked improvement if you understand all the variables in play.

Re:Clueless

[Anonymous Coward]

I may be wrong but I've heard that Microsoft was replacing its UK head. To be sure our contact with them at work got some remarkably frank answers.
If this is the same guy, it may be that he's about to get the push and no longer gives a damn.

Re:Clueless

[Midnight Thunder]

Good grief, someone needs to post a 24 hour guard by this guy, Ballmer is going to disappear his ass posthaste.

Well, you are making the assumption that this arrogance does not exist in the higher ranks. I personally feel that Microsoft is occupied by too many people out of touch with reality. Mind you there are departments that seem to slowly be seeing the light outside of their ivory tower, some of these including those working on IE8 and Microsoft office.

Re:Clueless

[A. B3ttik]

I personally read it more as
"We're just trying something new here. We don't have all the bugs worked out... we don't have all the questions answered, now quit pestering me."

Re:Clueless

[mark72005]

This makes the purchase of a Zune look like a purchase of Microsoft stock in 1986.

Re:Clueless

[mark72005]

I agree. Given the mentality of the higher levels there, I wouldn't assume Ballmer doesn't think this is a great idea. Lock people in to MSN music. Perhaps later, "graciously" allow the files to be transferred off the device (while still DRMed of course)

Re:Clueless

[AdamPee]

How clueless can you be? This guy almost makes me feel good about the other news of the day (Microsoft to laying off 5,000).

I am sure they can push it to 5001 for this champ.

Re:Clueless

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft doesn't have the technology in-house to do a simple file transfer?

Sure it's a simple and solved problem - until you require DRM. We've seen it in drivers, in storage media, and video interfaces too. Everything the customer cares about - technical properties like compatibility, price, stability, simplicity, functionality, and open specifications - is in direct opposition to DRM.
I find it an unethical consideration in the first place, media providers are asking themselves "How much can we retard technical progress and degrade the experience of paying customers in order to curb piracy, and still get away with it?"
So yeah, "Let the user access their media - but not access it!" is a bit much to ask of a programmer. It's like asking a mathematician for the square root of 2. Fine, simple problems, solved by the ancient Greeks, but then the PHB adds "- oh, and we need it expressed as a fraction." (And of course, the final product ships with 24/17, because 99/70 was too expensive.)

Re:Clueless

[Anonymous Coward]

He's real enough:

http://www.nma.co.uk/Articles/33040/Hugh+Griffiths+to+head+up+mobile+at+MSN.html

Interestingly he's responsible for i-mode at O2, and we all know how much of an impact that made...

Re:Clueless

[RingDev]

This guy almost makes me feel good about the other news of the day (Microsoft to laying off 5,000).

I'm thinking they should have gone with 5,001.

"In an effort to restructure and reduce costs, Microsoft is cutting 5,001 positions world wide. One of those positions belongs to Hugh Griffiths, who was scheduled to have a really dumb press conference tomorrow."

I'm a rather happy MS stack user (Windows/IIS/.Net/SL), but this idea is about as smart as the time I bet my roomie he couldn't piss on the 3rd rail of the local metro line from the platform...

-Rick

Re:Clueless

[Anonymous Coward]

hey i have a zune, and i enjoy it.

Re:Clueless

[orclevegam]

Has Microsoft secretly stumbled onto some previously unknown technique for making money off of doomed products that none of us have heard of? That's the only explanation for the constant parade of suck that's been pouring out of Microsoft in the recent years. I mean, they've never really been known for doing a quality job, but at least they've traditionally made products that have sold if for no other reason than Microsoft's standard unsavory practices. Now comes the Zune, Vista, "new" hotmail (on par with "New Coke" it seems), and now these plans for what sounds to be one of the worst DRM implementations ever at a time when their competitors are moving to distance themselves from DRM and the recent customer backlash surrounding it. I honestly can't understand how Microsoft could possibly be this boneheaded. At least things are looking, if not exactly good, at least encouraging on the Windows 7 front.

Re:Clueless

[David Gerard]

Yep. He sounds like "we're trying to sell something that's crappier than Vista on a Zune, I know it and I gave up hope long ago. Kill me now."

Re:Clueless

[elrous0]

If I were Balmer, this dumbass would be the first one of those 5,000 laid off.

Re:Clueless

[khellendros1984]

Interviewer: If I buy these songs on your service - and they're locked to my phone - what happens when I upgrade my phone in six months' time?

Hugh Griffiths: Well, I think you know the answer to that.

In my mind, it seems to be worse than "you're boned". This is how I would translate his answer.

Griffiths: I'm sorry, I've forgotten the lube. This will be uncomfortable for you.

Re:Clueless

[Kokuyo]

If anyone uses MSN it's because it came up by default in IE and they're too stupid to figure out how to change it. My mom might use MSN...

Family issues? ;)

Re:Clueless

[Ifni]

It actually seemed to me more like he was saddled with this dog of a project and is hoping it dies quickly so he can move on to something that might actually have wings. It seemed he knew they were years behind their competitors and that they didn't really have a viable plan, but that his hands were tied and that it was probably some pet project of a higher-up, or some commitment that Microsoft had made years ago that they were bringing to market for no other reason than they had contractual obligations with "a partner" that it was cheaper to crash and burn the service than break the contract.

He knows full well that it won't garner any interest from consumers - with all of the other DRM laden services that have closed their doors (including a Microsoft one! - http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080422-drm-sucks-redux-microsoft-to-nuke-msn-music-drm-keys.html) in the past year or so, he can't possibly believe that such a sub par service will "get some interest from consumers", and that they'll languish until somebody finally decided to pull the plug sometime next year.

Now, there may be trickery involved. "The ONLY music service for your Windows Mobile phone" seems like a dirty tactic MS could use to sucker people into using it, and if they do that, the service might just stay afloat for an extra year or two until people start catching on.

Re:Clueless

[Archimagus]

This has to be a spoof. . . If not, it's just sad. Really, Just sad.

Re:Clueless

[orclevegam]

Perhaps he's counting on the phones being so locked down that you must buy the songs from MS?

Seems likely, although I must confess a lack of knowledge as concerns the mobile phone industry in the UK. Going by the example set in the USA (which I understand is somewhat unique as pertains to mobile phone providers) it's not uncommon to be forced into getting everything from the carrier, or to have to simply do without. Perhaps MS is planning on cutting a deal with the carriers to force usage of their service inside of the carriers walled garden (Verizon would probably do it if they weren't so adamant about wringing the necks of their customers themselves). They might also be counting on the relative naivete of the most lucrative mobile phone demographic, that being primarily the teens and tweens who quite often will run up quite massive bills with overages in both voice and texting.

Even if that is the case however, I don't see any of the major carriers jumping at this as they already have their own services in place and have no reason to want to switch to anything approaching a "standardized" format that would only serve to lower the barrier to switching to another carriers. There's also the not insignificant chance that their customers will balk at the high prices being demanded and cut back on music purchases (traditionally one of the big moneymakers for mobile providers in the form of ring-tones).

Re:Clueless

[Anonymous Coward]

And while I respect that kind of honesty, it doesn't inspire me to buy a bad product.

Re:Clueless

[mcgrew]

Impossible. Those five guys with Zunes will certainly buy, er RENT more than one song each!

Re:Clueless

[Weaselmancer]

Just wait until you try to play music on it.

Re:Clueless

[srealm]

Of course they have, it's called having a monopoly in a marketplace (or enough clout to bully providers into towing their line), and being in a country where the government doesn't have the balls to follow through on FINDING them to be a monopoly (well, at least the Bush administration).

In that position, it's easy to make money, bundle the shit together, make it the default, or pressure service providers to make it the only option.

Re:Clueless

[panaceaa]

I'm no PR guy, I'm an engineer. And if I were put into Hugh Griffiths' shoes, I'm not so sure I'd have answered the questions any differently. He knows the product sucks: It's more expensive, non-transferable, and behind the times technically. He's probably IMMENSELY frustrated that they could only release this crap given the building products they have to work with. So, he grits his teeth, does an interview, and does his best to not say anything negative. But you can just tell he's disappointed.

If I were him, actually, I wouldn't have done the interview. That's probably his big mistake.

Re:Clueless

[ciaohound]

"it's a toe in the water for MSN Mobile"

You see it as a toe in the water, Hugh Griffith. We see it as a chair up your ass.

Re:Clueless

[cecille]

Why was this marked flamebait? I have one too, and I like it as well. The screen is big, the UI isn't too terribly clumsy, it fits in my pocket and it doesn't require iTunes. Oh yeah, and it plays MP3s, which is what I bought it for. So far it hasn't pissed me off in any large way, so it's still good in my books. I'm not sure why this comment would be considered inflammatory other than because it's not strictly anti-Microsoft as per slashdot forum opinion requirements.

Re:Clueless

[nabsltd]

He's probably IMMENSELY frustrated that they could only release this crap given the building products they have to work with.

So, what you're saying is that no matter how bad the product is, Microsoft feels they must release it to the public.

Makes sense, and it explains Vista quite nicely.

Re:Clueless

[mrchaotica]

Even if that were the case, he was still a dumbass -- if you don't care, then don't give an interview!

Re:Clueless

[Nursie]

The only problem with forcing tie-in in europe is that you tend to fall foul of the laws about this sort of thing. The UK isn't as strongly protected as some others (like Belgium and Italy), but they'd never get away with half the nonsense you lot in the US put up with.

Re:Clueless

[darth dickinson]

Has Microsoft secretly stumbled onto some previously unknown technique for making money off of doomed products that none of us have heard of?

It's called "pay-per-incident support".

Re:Clueless

[qortra]

it's not strictly anti-Microsoft as per slashdot forum opinion requirements

Seems like you've answered your own question...

Seriously though, you're right that it shouldn't have been modded flamebait (this has already been fixed apparently). However, it should have been modded "offtopic" since the great-grandparent was talking about popularity, not enjoyability. The Zune is indeed unpopular for whatever reason.

Re:Clueless

[Endo13]

Well, maybe I'm way off but to me it came across mostly like this:

"We're doing this mainly so we can put a little checkmark in the box for 'includes MP3 download service'. We don't really care if it's profitable or not, or how well people like it, or even really whether they use it or not. It's one more thing we can add to the list of features, and that's all we really care about."

Re:Clueless

[NineNine]

Well, I didn't think that phones churned that quickly, either. I buy a new phone when my old one dies. That's about 5 years or so. I didn't realize THAT many people fetish-ize their phones. Seems bizarre to me.

Re:Clueless

[im_thatoneguy]

Especially because Microsoft is supposedly going to announce Zune/Windows Mobile 6.5 integration in like...3 weeks.

I wouldn't want to be in charge of a doomed project which is going to be completely 0wn3d by ZunePass + ZuneStore + WM6.5 in less than a month after announcement.

Re:Clueless

[timmarhy]

actually MS has a lot of smart people producing some great products. don't let the /. propagander colour your vision. sql server, .NET and windows 2003 are really good products. like all mega corps your going to have more than a few idiots.

Re:Clueless

[Endo13]

He has a Zune, and he's not afraid to use it!

Re:Clueless

[pm_rat_poison]

hey i have a zune, and i enjoy it.

you insensitive clod!
There, fixed that for ya

Re:Clueless

[emlyncorrin]

Oh yeah, and it plays MP3s, as long as it's not the 31st of december.

There, FTFY.

Re:Clueless

[Tubal-Cain]

The longer he stays in the more likely he is to be promoted. And handed a bigger golden parachute.

Re:Clueless

[BitZtream]

So instead of iTunes, what apps sync with the Zune I'm curious as to the options you have that iTunes users don't?

Re:Clueless

[techprophet]

The fact that you spelled propaganda wrong tips me off that either you missed that spelling class, or you don't know what you're talking about.
Did you hear about the recet MSSQL skeleton key? Ever tried to port a .NET app to OSX? Ever tried to manage 200 Win03 computers in an office with people periodically clicking every attachment that comes through their inbox?

Admittedly, other than the skeleton key and a couple of speed issues, MSSQL is not that bad. And the old DOS wasn't too shabby.

Re:Clueless

[MooUK]

Most contracts are 12 or 18 months. Most providers give you a free or reduced phone at the start of a new contract period. Therefore, virtually all people on contracts get new phones every 12 or 18 months.

Pay as you go phones are obviously a little different. A lot of people, particularly younger people, still replace theirs fairly frequently for whatever reason.

Personally, I kept my 3510 for over seven years before it finally started dying (the nine key stopped working) and I replaced it.

Re:Clueless

[xaxa]

He's real enough:

http://www.nma.co.uk/Articles/33040/Hugh+Griffiths+to+head+up+mobile+at+MSN.html

Interestingly he's responsible for i-mode at O2, and we all know how much of an impact that made...

Hey, I had an iMode phone! I even met someone else with one once.

It was great, because every month they'd extend the free email + browsing trial by another month, presumably in an effort to get more subscribers. Except the phone was a bit crap (N343i) with poor reception and a low battery life. Still, I was annoyed when I "dropped" it in a pint of cider. It did manage to sent an MMS while submerged though. But it was the last message it sent :-(.

Re:Clueless

[aperion]

Or like the Radio on GTA IV

Announcer: "Costs more and you loose ALL RIGHTS! Mobile Music Service, Less bang, for more buck."

Re:Clueless

[theaveng]

I think you're giving them too much credit. After all when they were asked, "Can you really expect people to buy music that's locked to a device they upgrade every 12 to 18 months?", they replied,

"I didn't realize phones were churning that quickly in the marketplace these days."

They are marketing idiots. Probably grads from the local community college.

Re:Clueless

[xaxa]

Well, I didn't think that phones churned that quickly, either. I buy a new phone when my old one dies. That's about 5 years or so. I didn't realize THAT many people fetish-ize their phones. Seems bizarre to me.

Mobile phone shops are probably the most common kind of shop in the UK. I think there's even two branches of the same shop on Oxford Street (can't remember which shop though).

Suggests to me people either lose, have stolen, or get bored with their phones a lot more often that I do.

Re:Clueless

[tchernobog]

C'mon, first rule of PR: everything they'll give you to sell will suck. Solution: lie about it. This guy doesn't even try. A good PR boy is one that can smile while he says "...and this service is soooo fantastic, 'cause it enables you to replenish your ice-cube stock while you're on holidays at the Arctic pole. Oh, and it also make a wonderful coffee with nothing more than water, electricity and some beans!" Never read Dilbert?

Re:Clueless

[Fluffeh]

Q: If I buy these songs on your service - and they're locked to my phone - what happens when I upgrade my phone in six months' time?
A: Well, I think you know the answer to that.

Hmmm
Q: If you try to run a business with your services and business model as they are now, what will happen to them in six months time?
A: I think you know the answer to that."

There, fixed it for you.

Re:Clueless

[theaveng]

>>>I'm assuming he must understand the churn rate for phone, right? It's probably more than a year, less than two.

I must be abnormal. I had the same phone for 7 years, and the only reason I got rid of it was because "they" turned the analog towers off. I suppose it would still work somewhere like Wyoming? Not sure. In any case I keep stuff a long, long time.

Re:Clueless

[Samah]

To my ears it sounded a little different. It was more like, "We don't know what we're doing, we're semi-^H^H^H^H^H incompetent, and I'm generally unprepared for your questions, but maybe we'll figure this out before the project gets abandoned."

Fixed that for you. ;)

Re:Clueless

[techprophet]

Yes, very much so. Forgive my attack on his spelling, I am not British. It is kind of like in many southern small towns in America every car/SUV/etc is a 'truck'.

Re:Clueless

[quickOnTheUptake]

I think the message was more of a "we'll gladly rip off the suckers."
What's mildly disturbing is that those are the people he was calling loyal.

Re:Clueless

[davester666]

Oh yeah, and it plays MP3s, as long as it's not the 31st of december on a leap year.

Fixed.

Re:Clueless

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, when you know you can't do a good interview, because all the answers to the obvious questions are going to be really bad, then you don't do the interview. People will probably still suspect that the product is crap ("When contacted, the vendor was unavailable to do an interview about the product"), but at least they won't have specific confirmation of it!

You shouldn't fight battles you know you will lose.

Re:Clueless

[jbohumil]

Same reason so many people use the crappy msn email accounts that come with their crappy msn internet connection. They don't know any better and since it's microsoft - it must be good enough. Microsoft dosen't need the smarter than average half of the bell curve to use their products, they only need a certain market share and they'll make buckets of money.

Re:Clueless

[Darundal]

Actually, I would be willing to bet that this guy, and anyone else in any significant position in this project, are people who they can't get fire/lay off easily for one reason or another, so they are basically giving them a project that they know these people will bomb so they have a good basis to get rid of these people. Kind of like a corporate version of the Golgafrinchan B-Ark.

Re:Clueless

[aurispector]

Oh, my god! How about completely owned by android + any source for mp3s? Who in their right mind cares? At this point, virtually anyone who cares knows better than to lock themselves in like this. What's really baffling is why they are even bothering with an obviously useless thing like this.

Re:Clueless

[NeoTron]

Only in some regional accents within the UK would what you say be valid, and then, only regional accents within England would that be true.

I'm from Scotland, and when I say "propaganda" I say it as "propaganda", when I say "car", I say "car".

Not everyone in the UK would pronounce those words as you have stated, therefore what you have stated isn't entirely accurate.

Just to let you know ;)

Re:Clueless

[Tanktalus]

A video camera on every other corner?

I dunno, I'm not sure there are too many countries that can claim they're nonsense-free.

Re:Clueless

[calmofthestorm]

Some people go to community colleges for reasons other than "being idiots". Like, for example, saving money, staying near home, etc etc. Nor are they all terrible educational institutions, especially not for freshman and sophomore classes.

Careful with the elitism, it interferes with the meat of your message. Having taken classes both at community colleges and at a quite prestigious science school, I can tell you there is a difference in quality of instruction available, but it is dwarfed by the difference in the students who take advantage of their opportunities and those who do not.

Aside from that last line, I agree completely.

Re:Clueless

[aurispector]

Now, there may be trickery involved. "The ONLY music service for your Windows Mobile phone" seems like a dirty tactic MS could use to sucker people into using it, and if they do that, the service might just stay afloat for an extra year or two until people start catching on.

You may well be right, but as a strategy it still sounds like an efficient way to make windows mobile as a whole smell like skunk. Baffling.

Re:Clueless

[mjwx]

Has Microsoft secretly stumbled onto some previously unknown technique for making money off of doomed products that none of us have heard of?

Yes, its called using the loss as a tax break so you don't have to pay tax on the wildly successful extortion^W licensing part of your business.

Re:Clueless

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not sure what is going through Microsoft's head here. Perhaps since they have the whole Xbox360 Media machine going for them, they want to be able to appease Big Media to the point of consumer disgust. Facts will eventually have to be faced here, Copyright fairness only benefits consumers and small businesses. Once a company reaches the point where it is a giant corporation, the fairness of copyright seems to become somewhat bothersome to them.

I would say to anyone who cares about DRM to just ignore Microsoft's music offerings and let the market decide. People will undoubtedly buy from them as a matter of immediate convenience but in the end if too many people get burned by it Microsoft will have just another lame duck market. Copyright control should end at granting someone a license to play the media, not telling consumers where, when, and how they should play media. If the RIAA is so paranoid about PAYING consumers actually enjoying their licensed media on their own personal terms, don't release it. I never understood how the prevention of infringing on one entity's rights gives copyright holders the brass balls to think it's ok to trample of other people's rights. If I purchase music, whether it is on CD, DVD, or a file, I shouldn't have my rights infringed on making a back up or playing it wherever I want for personal enjoyment.

Guess what RIAA, the pirates are still out there, and they are never going away. Want to go push some Government agency on another perpetual war (The War on Piracy) so we can throw more tax payer money at a problem that will end up causing more collateral damage than effectiveness?

Re:Clueless

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you please go into more detail about what this "deadwood" is? Who works at MS that is below average intellegence?
Just curious...
 

Re:Clueless

[Jabbrwokk]

Survivor: Microsoft (or any other big corporation these days): The biggest backstabbing prick wins.

PS -- your name. Aren't you the guy in the Bible who invented music? You must have some interesting insights into the whole "DRM in Music" debate.

Re:Clueless

[shadwstalkr]

We don't have all the bugs worked out... we don't have all the questions answered

Then they are incompetent. A lot (most?) of the music services besides iTunes used Microsoft's DRM before they went to mp3. I'm pretty sure that it's built in to Windows Media Player. Microsoft has the dominant DRM scheme on non-iPod media players, which is also integrated with Windows Media Player. Microsoft has been working on these technologies for years.

Microsoft should have been in an unparalleled position to roll out a service like this. It is another incomprehensible example of one Microsoft division acting completely unaware of the products of other Microsoft divisions. The same thing happened when the Zune didn't support PlaysForSure. What the hell is going on there? If someone has a good explanation, I'd love to know it.

Re:Clueless

[Anonymous Coward]

Still, I was annoyed when I "dropped" it in a pint of cider.

You shat it in a toilet bowl of piss?

Re:Clueless

[Kadin2048]

I suspect most recent community-college grads would be more familiar with portable electronics and the marketplace in general than this guy comes off being.

Only someone well-insulated from the outside world, in a position where their incompetence is somehow mistaken for an asset, could produce a product while knowing so little about the people they're trying to sell it to.

I vote "Executive MBA Program" grad. :)

Re:Clueless

[Tubal-Cain]

Metallurgy.

Re:Clueless

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell are you even talking about? You love community college.. yay?

Re:Clueless

[Jabbrwokk]

Oops, my bad, got you mixed up with your half-brother Jubal.

Re:Clueless

[wintermute000]

I agree - college kids / recent grads would be all over iphones, itunes, amazon and mobiles in general. Heck these kids are the ones who are getting themselves into mobile phone debt lol

For a tech person (as defined in: some whose job has to do with tech) he comes across as woefully out of touch.

Looks like one doesn't need any brains to be "head of marketing", at least not for MS. As most of us here are IT engineers/techs in some way I'll leave the inevitable stream of marketing bashing to others...

Re:Clueless

[Anonymous Coward]

Im from Scotland too, and when I say "car", it sometimes comes out as "key-arr".

Then again, I did share a flat with a Northern Irishman for 3 years.

Re:Clueless

[myxiplx]

Tell me about it, I've been a hotmail user for > 13 years. Then they release an update that stops me sending emails (I use firefox). They fix that, but in a way that stops me searching through my mails.

Didn't take me long to move to gmail I can tell you. And since moving over I've found I'm using a whole host of other google services much more often: Google docs, calendar, photos, iGoogle and reader are now used daily.

For me, that really highlights the difference between Microsoft and Google online, and shows just how badly Microsoft are failing. Google understand that an annoyed customer is a lost customer. They realise the importance of getting it right, and keeping on getting it right. I'm using a whole bunch of their services because each and every one of them does what I want it to do, and does it quickly and easily.

Microsoft need to understand that customer churn online is vitally important, and they've got to loose the whole "we develop for IE, everyone else is irrelevant" attitude. That may have worked with windows where people are locked in, but online where it's a few seconds work to find another provider it's a recipe for disaster.

Re:Clueless

[Fred_A]

So instead of iTunes, what apps sync with the Zune I'm curious as to the options you have that iTunes users don't?

So the options are "iTunes" or something so obscure you haven't even heard of it ?

I've never even seen a Zune in the flesh, having only ever used Cowon or iRiver players, but like any other players I expect they work with a file manager or most music players... Amarok manages my players just fine. Or they just show as removable drives.

Re:Clueless

[Anonymous Coward]

How clueless can you be? This guy almost makes me feel good about the other news of the day (Microsoft to laying off 5,000).

Really, Microsoft has lots of money, I'd rather they employ more people in this economy, that way it helps them burn through their cash stockpile more quickly bringing them closer to going out of business. And employing more people is good for the economy.

Re:Clueless

[Lachlan Hunt]

Well, maybe I'm way off but to me it came across mostly like this:

"We're doing this mainly so we can put a little checkmark in the box for 'includes MP3 download service'

If only they realised that "MP3" in "MP3 download service" doesn't mean the same thing as DRM-infected WMA.

Re:Clueless

[Kashgarinn]

Am I in the minority by having a phone which still works, and I still enjoy after more than 3,5 years?

Why are you buying new phones every 6 months? you guys high?

Re:Clueless

[Anonymous Coward]

Three little words: plays... for... sure

Re:Clueless

[theaveng]

Things have changed a lot in a short time. He could be a college grad, but if he graduated the same time as me, then there are lots of things he would not have been exposed to:

- no MP3 players
- no PDAs
- no cellphones
- no amazon
- no web

Re:Clueless

[theaveng]

I'm sorry. I won't tell any more jokes. Reminds me of a Star Trek episode:

GUY: "What do you call those pointy things on your head?"
SPOCK: "I call them 'ears'."
GUY: "Are you trying to be funny?"
SPOCK: "Never."

So I'll just go-round being as unfunny as Spock. The British guy was merely answering questions. When the reporter asked, "What happens when I upgrade my phone in six months time?", the man merely provided a factual response: The reporter already knows the answer. Logical.

(yawn)

Re:Clueless

[wintermute000]

I was reading above comment to imply recent college grads

I am also from the university era before mp3s lol (well, 64Mb Rio Diamond players don't really count)

Re:Clueless

[Nursie]

Oh, *that* sort of nonsense is rife over here.

I was talking about the particular brand of nonsense that the cell=phone providers in the US seem to pull.

We have more limits on corporate power over here, but it seems our government likes to think it has even less limits than the US government. Probably because your lot have to at least pay lip service to the constitution.

Swings and roundabouts...

Re:Clueless

[theaveng]

It wasn't meant to be accurate. I was just joking.

Re:Clueless

[u-235-sentinel]

Actually I read it as more arrogant than clueless, or perhaps hostile would be the word. He definately didn't defend as much as say "Yeah, we don't care" to most of the questions.

It's a good thing they have a lot of money. They will need it as more and more people like me decide not to purchase their DRM crap products.

Amazon.com music is awesome. No DRM and it works with any player I have. I don't share the files with other's. They are mine however and not the property of another entity.

That's basically what DRM is. Giving property rights away and turning your property into a rental.

Re:Clueless

[Mr. Slippery]

I am also from the university era before mp3s lol (well, 64Mb Rio Diamond players don't really count)

If 64Mb Rio MP3 players were around when you went to college, then ipso facto you didn't go to college before MP3s.

Now, some of us went to college when a personal music player meant a Walkman-type cassette player...that's the era before MP3. Now, get off my lawn.

Re:Clueless

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe he was forced to it so badly, that he gave up and simply went on...
I'm starting to feel sorry for him. You know, this world is not exactly nice to people who can't get the work they dream about. I'm not saying it's the world's fault, I just think this is natural result of such world. Still sad.

!surprise

[weirdcrashingnoises]

seriously, who is really surprised microsoft did this? sure other companies (itunes/amazon) got smart and are moving away from the DRMs, but it's not surprising at all to see MS stick with it.

Re:!surprise

[erroneus]

Lock-in has worked pretty well for Microsoft so far. They have no motivation to change strategies. They will have to suffer a near-death experience before they will actually pay attention to what the user wants and what the market is delivering.

Re:!surprise

[Anonymous Coward]

[Microsoft] will have to suffer a near-death experience before they will actually pay attention to what the user wants and what the market is delivering.

Year of the Linux Desktop, anyone? C'mon, let's get this thing off the ground!

Re:!surprise

[hansamurai]

Unfortunately (for the customer), Microsoft's relationship with music provides one of the single best examples of why DRM simply does not work: PlaysForSure.

Re:!surprise

[Mistshadow2k4]

Lock-in has worked pretty well for several companies (e.g., Apple). I'm afraid you need to give a specific example, as their examples of practicing lock-in (PlaysForSure, etc.) aren't so glaringly notorious as that.

Re:!surprise

[Myrv]

Lock-in has worked pretty well for Microsoft so far. They have no motivation to change strategies.

Problem is this isn't lock in. Not in the traditional sense at least. If they had said, "you can only transfer songs to another Microsoft enabled phone." That would be lock in. The user will want to keep buying Microsoft phones to keep their music. By nuking the music when you get rid of the phone there is no incentive to buy another Microsoft phone.

And yes, the person may be locked in to using a particular phone, but that doesn't work either because now the person isn't buying any new phones (with new Micrsoft OS licenses to go with them).

I guess you could argue that the phones OS is the lock-in factor and they are milking that. You want a MS phone? Be prepared to buy all your music again. But that is a dangerous strategy when there are plenty of healthy platforms still competing.

Re:!surprise

[YourExperiment]

Lock-in has worked pretty well for Microsoft so far. They have no motivation to change strategies.

You seem to have magnificently missed the point of the term "lock-in". Microsoft can't lock anyone in until there's someone there to be locked. "Embrace, extend, extinguish" doesn't work if you forget to embrace.

Re:!surprise

[SanityInAnarchy]

Actually, I'm surprised.

Apple has almost universally been more locked-down than Microsoft, about almost everything. They only get away with it by making generally better products.

Neither one in isolation is that surprising, but the result is strange.

Re:!surprise

[MoonBuggy]

I read that as referring to other MS products - the immense number of companies still buying expensive MS Office licenses because they're stuck with MS file formats, for example.

Re:!surprise

[jargon82]

I'm reasonably sure this is the century of the linux desktop. I'll even bet a penny on it.

Re:!surprise

[Darundal]

The fact that they don't make up some horridly large percent of the market also helps them get away with lock-in (if anyone starts thinking iTunes, think of where iTunes is going in regards to DRM).

Re:!surprise

[SanityInAnarchy]

(if anyone starts thinking iTunes, think of where iTunes is going in regards to DRM).

I'm also thinking about the fact that iTunes still requires that everything be bought through the iTunes application. It's not that fucking hard to put up a webpage that provides a download when you give it a credit card number. Nor is it that hard to then provide a REST API, so rich clients like iTunes can access it, too.

As it is, to get the advantage of that DRM-free-ness, I still have to install and use iTunes, which is going to use DRM for its own access, even if it gives me unencrypted files at the end. Which also means I'm going to have to use Windows or OS X, and then transfer the files to an OS of my choice, so I can play them on Amarok.

Oh yeah, and the iPod. And now the iPhone. Large chunks of the market, large chunks of consumer-unfriendly lock-in.

Re:!surprise

[myxiplx]

Yup, and that's why they're loosing so badly to google online. Lock in doesn't exist online. Google understands that and each of its products is strong in its own right - the user gets to pick and choose which ones they'd like to use.

Microsoft don't understand that, they still try to tie their online services to their own operating system and browser. They even try to tie their games console to it. They have no concept that you can't control what people want to do online.

Re:!surprise

[Anonymous Coward]

I am, because they choose to kill off their plays-for-sure music drm.

The question I want to ask is: Since they have already killed off one DRM music service, how do customers know the same won't happen to this one?

Either the person who wants to introduce the service is stupid, or they actually want this to fail. Or maybe it is some kind of social experiment.

Another Bomb Here to Stay

[eldavojohn]

Apple and Amazon have finally moved to music download services free of copy protection

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that Amazon's music service has always been DRM free. Could you please point me to a source showing that their service was ever under DRM? Did they offer a music service before Amazon MP3?

I don't know why everyone got excited when Apple went DRM-free, I've been buying DRM free MP3 singles from Amazon for over a year.

I don't think Microsoft is alone in their cling-to-DRM mentality. I think this will bomb but does it really even matter? It's just going to be another Zune/XBox bomb all over again offset by their other divisions so it's here to stay whether the market & investors say it should be or not. Oh well, if they want to lose money, let 'em. It does take more work for me to put my MP3s on my phone, maybe joe consumer won't put up with that and live with the DRM? We'll see after an upgrade though ...

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Phoenixhawk]

Blah, Soon enough people will go out of their way to pirate the DRM version. After all look what DRM did for Spore.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[LWATCDR]

Xbox bomb? The XBox and 360 are actually doing pretty well. Now the Zune... Well now that ITunes is going DRM free the Zune is even less interesting.
Too bad really. Competition is usually a good thing.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[nine-times]

Apple and Amazon have finally moved to music download services free of copy protection

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that Amazon's music service has always been DRM free.

Well if you want to pick nits, nobody explicitly said Amazon ever had DRM on their music download store. You could argue that Amazon has "moved to music download services free of copy protection" in that they moved into music download services, and those services don't use DRM.

I don't know why everyone got excited when Apple went DRM-free, I've been buying DRM free MP3 singles from Amazon for over a year.

Is it possible that you're just a bit touchy about people hyping Apple? I mean, we could debate the importance of iTunes dropping DRM on all songs, but they are the biggest music retailer in the US (including brick&mortar stores). That alone seems enough to make the transition noteworthy.

Anyway, you're right that DRM isn't dead yet. Amazon, Apple, and Netflix are still using DRM on video, AFAIK. Also, Microsoft *needs* DRM to stay alive in order to keep WMA alive. Ignoring issues related to DRM, what's the point of using WMA when you have the option of AAC or MP3?

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[BMonger]

I use a Mac at home and one day finally remembered that Amazon had a service. So I decided to go their first as I knew they were cheaper. I went to go fill up my cart with some albums but as far as I could tell you could only buy one album per purchase. Even worse if I went to buy singles I had to make a new transaction per song. Has the service improved since then? After I bought one single I went back to my DRM laden and slightly more expensive iTunes store. Although maybe there is an easier way to do it on a Windows machine. I'm actually just curious, not trying to be secretly inflammatory.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

"I was under the impression that Amazon's music service has always been DRM free."

i think you're right, actually (not entirely sure, though).
Now if only Amazon's "Audible" service would ditch DRM we'd be in good shape.

Microsoft Mobile DRM, eh? Maybe they're planning to cough up a "Zune Phone" after all...

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[nine-times]

Well now that ITunes is going DRM free the Zune is even less interesting.

Why? I think the Zune is more interesting now that iTunes is DRM-free. Now you can buy songs from iTunes and play them on your Zune.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[eldavojohn]

Xbox bomb? The XBox and 360 are actually doing pretty well. Now the Zune... Well now that ITunes is going DRM free the Zune is even less interesting. Too bad really. Competition is usually a good thing.

I was talking about how if any other company had entered the console market in the fashion that Microsoft did, they would have sank faster than the Titanic. Microsoft threw it's weight around and took losses heavily. You may argue that all console makers do but not on this level. Let me quote the BBC for you:

For the first time Microsoft is revealing how much money it is losing on its Xbox game console.

Documents filed with the US financial watchdog show that Microsoft's Home and Entertainment division, which includes the Xbox, lost $177m in the three months to 30 September.

Since the Xbox was launched Microsoft has been forced to cut its price twice to boost sales.

The documents also reveal that four of the seven divisions of the company are operating at a loss.

For a while they were just burning money there. I'm not saying it's a bad or inferior console, I am impressed with the Xbox360 but I will stand by my statement that the initial offering of the Xbox was a horrible move that lost them hundreds of millions--almost instantly! And for what? Entrance into another market, that's what. And they'll muscle their bullheaded ideas into this market too and shove it down your throat just like the Zune and Xbox. Wait long enough and the Zune will be forced to be part of the market just like the Xbox.

It's the one Microsoft way.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Andy Dodd]

Some might say that while Amazon never moved their music service away from DRM (since it never had DRM in the first place), their opening of a music service without DRM could be considered a move away from DRM from Amazon since Unbox (Their movie service) has (or at least had) some pretty nasty DRM and existed for at least a year or two before Amazon MP3.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[No Grand Plan]

Until Microsoft decides to send out a Zune software 'update' to stop that...

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[AuMatar]

Xbox has sold a lot, but it hasn't turned a profit- in fact it's billions of dollars into the red. So yes, that's a bomb.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[PingSpike]

Cough up? I think you mean "squirt out"?

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[sanyacid]

I don't know why everyone got excited when Apple went DRM-free, I've been buying DRM free MP3 singles from Amazon for over a year.

Well, you probably didn't know that Amazon MP3 store is not available for "The rest of the world".
Amazon MP3 store means nothing to people outside the USA (that's a bounch of people!).

I happen to live outside the USA and that's the reason why I am very excited about iTunes going DRM free.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[eldavojohn]

Well if you want to pick nits, nobody explicitly said Amazon ever had DRM on their music download store. You could argue that Amazon has "moved to music download services free of copy protection" in that they moved into music download services, and those services don't use DRM.

Are you serious? That would be like if I was introduced to my friend's new girlfriend and I said "Hey, Al, I see Peter and you have moved to dating girls that don't have herpes!"

Oh, if anyone wanted to nitpick I could just say that I mean Al is now dating women and Peter is the one who used to date someone with herpes. Ridiculous. That sentence makes it sound like Amazon used to have DRM and they got smart and moved away from it. To my knowledge, they've always offered me DRM free MP3s. I don't even think you can have DRM on MP3s making Amazon MP3 DRM free!

Is it possible that you're just a bit touchy about people hyping Apple?

Is it possible that I have a personal bias against iTunes? Yes. Yes it is. No Linux support (Amazon runs fine on it), a bloated program that makes me install QuickTime, it reindexes, doesn't let me transfer songs on iPods, wastes CPU, installs a Windows Service, etc. I could go on for hours. And then a family member calls me wondering why her computer runs so damned slow and why she can't have 1000+ songs in iTunes.

iTunes is horrible in my opinion and it gets all the press and love and there are other options out there (like Amazon + Amarok). Yeah, sorry about the bitchy rant but you asked me about it.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Anonymous Coward]

before you poo-poo Apple keep in mind that without pressure over iTunes the music industry would have never agreed to Amazon's DRM-free service.

Apple's pushed them for years to go DRM-free, we all owe them a heartfelt "thank you."

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[nine-times]

Yeah, I don't know the numbers, but consoles often sell at a loss for several years in the hopes of making money in the long run. Any hopes of turning profitable must have been set off a while by the extremely high defective-rate for 360s (at one point, I heard the number 16%), which has caused them to spend buttloads of money replacing defective units.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[LWATCDR]

The 360 is only doing well because Microsoft actually has a very good product. Of course the did a lot of the ground work with the original XBox.
1. They have the best online system. Sony's is a bad joke and Nintendo's is very limited.
2. They made very good Developer tools.
3. They made a great game franchise "Halo"
4. Now they are embracing Netflix for movie downloads which is frankly brilliant and so not like Microsoft.
5. They now have the lowest entry point with the Arcade.
Even then they are in second place to Nintendo. Frankly the 360 beats the Wii in power, and online. The Wii is doing so well because of the controls and the great first party software from Nintendo.
If any thing Microsoft showed a large chunk of effort, humility, and innovation in the game console market.
The exact opposite of their standard business practices.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[LWATCDR]

How much are they making on XBox live?

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[FiloEleven]

Well now that ITunes is going DRM free the Zune is even less interesting.
Too bad really. Competition is usually a good thing.

Do you think Apple would have pushed so hard for unlocking iTunes if their player was the only one on the market?

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[feldicus]

That seems roughly analogous to buying the top-tier, premium gas for a third-hand 1972 Pinto.

feldicus

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[matt4077]

They made 151 Million last quarter, and 375 Million a year earlier in their Entertainment and Devices Division (which also includes the zune I guess), so while they're not turning huge profits, they are profitable.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[feldicus]

So it's popular, has a reasonably good catalog of titles, and is a bomb because the manufacturer is operating at a loss? I'm pretty sure the fact that developers consider it a viable platform (due to the number owned) means that it's been pretty successful. There is an unusual disparity in that its success in the market (re: sales and title availability) has not equated to profit on the part of Microsoft, but that doesn't invalidate the platform itself.

feldicus

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[jbb999]

It's been available in the UK too for a little while now

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[nine-times]

Are you serious? That would be like if I was introduced to my friend's new girlfriend and I said "Hey, Al, I see Peter and you have moved to dating girls that don't have herpes!"

Maybe more like saying "eldavojohn, I hear you've moved to dating girls who don't have herpes!" and you replying, "I never dated women with herpes before! I've only dated men with herpes!" You'd have a valid objection there, but one could argue that my statement wasn't "misleading" so much as "ambiguous".

Yeah, sorry about the bitchy rant but you asked me about it.

Well... actually I didn't ask you whether you liked iTunes. I really only asked whether you might be touchy about Apple. But you know, it's fine. I can appreciate that you don't like iTunes. I wouldn't ask you to use it.

But I'll say it seems to me like some people are just very angry that people like Apple products, and will rant and rage, virtually unprompted, against Apple and all Apple products.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[mark72005]

In what way is Xbox Live better than PS network, which is free?

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Cowmonaut]

Until MS makes a hookup to my car stereo that doesn't require an FM transmitter or AUX jack I kinda regret buying my Zune. I can't even Rockbox it yet.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Anonymous Coward]

Coming from a business-IT-strategy perspective, you are dead wrong. An unprofitable platform will not be upgraded or update or bug-fixed. Granted, the XBox series is a different beast from .NET, for example, so my point does not invalidate yours. But I still see a giant red flag with "STAY AWAY" written in 144pt yellow Impact.

Also, Nintendo does not operate at a loss.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[nine-times]

Notice I didn't say I was going to run out and buy a Zune. I'm just saying it's good for Zune owners that iTunes music doesn't use DRM, since it means that Zunes are now compatible with the largest music retailer in the US.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Halo1]

I don't know why everyone got excited when Apple went DRM-free, I've been buying DRM free MP3 singles from Amazon for over a year.
 

Maybe because Amazon doesn't sell you any of those DRM-free tracks if you don't have a US credit card.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[nine-times]

I don't even think you can have DRM on MP3s

Oh, and for the record, it is possible to have DRM-wrapped MP3s. They're not common or widely supported, and no, Amazon never sold them.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Saffaya]

In every way ?

Seriously, name the features you think PSN has over Xbox live.
I haven't read anyone concurring with your point of view, please elaborate with constructive elements and examples.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[ceoyoyo]

Amazon only works in the US. From a how-many-people-are-you-leaving-out that's far worse than not working on Linux.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[supernova_hq]

The 360 is only doing well because Microsoft actually has a very good product.

Then why are it and its predecessor the only game systems in the world with a well known light configuration specifically designed to inform the user when it DIES?!?

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[flitty]

Yeah, M$ is going to make a patch that will stop you from playing .mp3 files on the Zune... I can see it now. Oh, and the next xbox 360 firmware update will make it so you can only Play Xbox 1 games on your 360.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[troll8901]

Ignoring issues related to DRM, what's the point of using WMA when you have the option of AAC or MP3?

(with a straight face)

1. AAC: patent trolls sue you (because it's hard to sue a consortium)
2. MP3: patent trolls sue you (because it's hard to file a lawsuit in German)
3. WMA: patent trolls sue Microsoft!

(Attempt at humour: FAIL.)

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[mark72005]

I have no issues with PS Network at all. It's been flawless every time I have used it.

In what way is xbox live so superior?

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[dnormant]

I use their one click album purchase. Most albums are $9.99.I've found that if I order multiple albums within several minutes of each other that all go on one CC transaction. Then, of course, I burn my wife a copy.

I don't know if they support the Mac. They should!

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

You assume that most people know or care what DRM is... they don't, not until it directly affects them. And even then, they're not going to be told "Well the DRM prevents you from transferring this stuff to your new phone". They'll instead hear "sorry, this is not compatible with your new phone".

And because their target audience seems to be people who are not aware that there isa non-microsoft choice (ie msn mobile users who will use whatever their phone comes with), competition doesn't help much.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Anonymous Coward]

I meant more that they'd stop you from playing iTunes' .mp3 files on your Zune. Although I wouldn't put it past MS to introduce another proprietary format...

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Anonymous Coward]

For starters, look at what online PS3 gamers regularly ask for. Cross game chat, in game voice etc, across all titles. PS3 relies on the developers to implement it, 3for the 60 it is part of the OS. The former only works for the same title if you're lucky, the latter works across whatever you and your friends happen to be playing at that time. It's like the problem the PS3 has playing your own music in game. If the developer doesn't let you do it from their game, tough. 360 lets you do it how you want from where you want.

PS3 just updated to 2.60. What do we get? Shitty divx 3.11 support and a photo gallery application no one gives a hoot about. They should have least got us up to divx 7 :-(

And they wonder we buy 360s too.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Macthorpe]

A free punch in the face is still a punch in the face.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[flitty]

Persistant friends list, Cross game invites, single sign-on, singularity in online requirements/standards, *mostly* stable.

I'm sure there are others, but the only experience I have with PS3 is trying to get updates for the system for my family (30 minute download for every patch, regardless of size, over ethernet) And trying to play online with Rock Band 2 (spotty connection issues) and Little Big Planet (never been able to join someone else's game online, but have tried some downloaded levels). MGS4 had, what, 3 different logons/passwords? Resistance 2 has it's own friends list that isn't shared anywhere else? I know this is the developers making these bad decisions, but XBL at least says "No, don't be dumb... Why do you have 3 logins?"

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[sanosuke001]

It's better in the form of being able to chat with 13 year old douche bags who call you gay, being able to have a list of all the friends you have online, and being able to access said list in any game all the while happily paying to do so.

oh, wait. you could always just call your friends, decide what server to connect to, and not worry about snot-nosed brats on the internet. Sorry, it isn't actually better nor gives any utility whatsoever.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Anonymous Coward]

"The XBox and 360 are actually doing pretty well."

I wish I could find the article. The XBox has never turned a profit. It was huge financial pot hole. The 360 was reported to turn a profit after a ~$1.4B write-off in the previous year to fix all those red ring of death. But that is only on paper. How well are they doing?

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[aristotle-dude]

Exactly. I'm sick of people on the net being so US-centric extolling the virtues of services like hulu, netflix and amazon to people who have no ability to access those services regardless of the OS they use.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[mark72005]

So... i could pay every month (do you still have to pay for a separate account for each member of the household who wants their own?) basically to have an easier sign-on process? not worth it to me.

Never had any PSN stability issues. I have a good connection at home so maybe that's it.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Jorophose]

I wonder how many Xboxes were actually used to play games with, and not used as DVD players or Mythboxes?

Really, if this was Sony, or Sega, the xbox would have been dead on the first week. It's a fucking joke of a concept. And yet they get away with it. At least the Zune had one good feature: you could send songs to each other.

But they're both pieces of shit. Especially amazing that in about the same time (360's launch was '06, and xbox was '02 or 03 wasn't it?) they've managed to sell about the same amount of units. Whereas their competitors have blown them out of the water. What is it now, 35+ million wiis? It has to be. And that's with 85+ million DSs, all in fucking september. Microsoft has barely sold 28 million xbox 360s as of january. The original xbox did about 30 million, tied with the gamecube. Not to mention, the PS2 has shipped 100 million units and possibly as high as 140. And although its competitors are flying off the shelves, and the PS2 still has a decent growth rate, the 360s sit there, stacked.

It's a failure. It's the MSN of consoles.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[MightyYar]

I don't know why everyone got excited when Apple went DRM-free

I didn't exactly get "excited", but it is nice because of the iTunes catalog - and the iTunes store is friendlier for Mac users. Easier to browse and sample - even to buy. The competition will be great, too. Price wars are good.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Anonymous Coward]

I get this feeling you're going to start a line of dialogue that looks an awful lot like one of those threads that compares a Dell to a Macbook Pro on paper and asks why people pay more for the Mac.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[O_4]

I don't know why everyone got excited when Apple went DRM-free, I've been buying DRM free MP3 singles from Amazon for over a year.

Amazon MP3 is only available to U.S. customers. As a New Zealander, I was quite pleased to hear that the only decent online music store available to me was going DRM free in a big way.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[chaim79]

Is it possible that I have a personal bias against iTunes? Yes. Yes it is. No Linux support (Amazon runs fine on it), a bloated program that makes me install QuickTime, it reindexes, doesn't let me transfer songs on iPods, wastes CPU, installs a Windows Service, etc. I could go on for hours. And then a family member calls me wondering why her computer runs so damned slow and why she can't have 1000+ songs in iTunes.

Some of these I can see, especially the windows service, but some of those items don't really work:

• Reindexing of music is an Option in the Preferences, and is available on other music players as well
• Quicktime is needed because iTunes uses it for video playback (music videos, movie rentals, etc)
• iTunes supports more than 1000 songs (I currently have over 6000 songs and over 500 videos in iTunes and synced to my iPod).
• Not allowing you to transfer songs back from your iPod is a simple measure to satisfy music cartels who worry about piracy, it's done by (queue spooky music) HIDING THE DIRECTORY!!! (oh noes!!)

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Flyin Fungi]

You mean they bought a great game franchise. Microsoft bought Bungie.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[jimicus]

Even then they are in second place to Nintendo. Frankly the 360 beats the Wii in power, and online. The Wii is doing so well because of the controls and the great first party software from Nintendo.

That's because Nintendo studied history.

Those consoles and accessories which have historically been the most successful have ALWAYS been those with the best games. Very few people buy a console because it can render more polygons per second than its competitor.

"Best" in this context means "Most playable". Not "prettiest graphics" - though that might help if two consoles are otherwise more or less tied in terms of the games available.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Anonymous Coward]

In every way except the rather trivial price.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[jimicus]

And then a family member calls me wondering why her computer runs so damned slow and why she can't have 1000+ songs in iTunes.

You might want to suggest she gets her computer fixed. My G4 Mac Mini handles 3,400 songs in iTunes quite happily, thanks.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Anonymous Coward]

"And then a family member calls me wondering why her computer runs so damned slow and why she can't have 1000+ songs in iTunes."

*Bzzzt* Wrong! If your family members are running machines that are so outdated they can't handle 1000+ songs, you might consider "suggesting" they buy one of those new Pentium Pro machines. My current iTunes library is over 12,000 songs, and was fully usable on an PowerMac G3 @300MHz with a mere 384MB of RAM. I won't deny that iTunes on Windows isn't the greatest ever, but neither is having Windows. But to suggest that iTunes is at fault for not being able to handle 1000 songs screams that you're not telling us about the *ancient* machines it is running on.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[UnknowingFool]

I think the OP is referring to Xbox in the business sense of profit/loss. Even though they have overtaken PS 3 in for #2 in gaming consoles, the Xbox division has been operating in the red until the last few quarters. Over the lifetime of the Xbox and Xbox 360, the division has lost money on in the range of $7 billion. If it were any other company, that division would have folded by now as investors would have questioned the MS strategy of pursuing unprofitable products that may take decades to break even.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[eldavojohn]

Are you serious? That would be like if I was introduced to my friend's new girlfriend and I said "Hey, Al, I see Peter and you have moved to dating girls that don't have herpes!"

Maybe more like saying "eldavojohn, I hear you've moved to dating girls who don't have herpes!" and you replying, "I never dated women with herpes before! I've only dated men with herpes!" You'd have a valid objection there, but one could argue that my statement wasn't "misleading" so much as "ambiguous".

Thank you for the ad hominem attack there. Much appreciated. I used herpes to compare it to DRM (which I thought to be a fitting analogy), you used herpes to describe my sexual partners. I'm glad you brought up my sexuality too, that's the ultimate signifier of someone who is excels in intelligent discussions. I eagerly await your next reference--will it be about my mother?

Yeah, sorry about the bitchy rant but you asked me about it.

Well... actually I didn't ask you whether you liked iTunes. I really only asked whether you might be touchy about Apple. But you know, it's fine. I can appreciate that you don't like iTunes. I wouldn't ask you to use it.

I have no problem with Apple. I have no problem with Apple employees. I have problems with several Apple products and services. To say that I am out of line to discuss Amazon's only music selling technology--when that is what the topic of this discussion is--is downright confusing to me. I do not hate everyone who works at Apple, I do not know them. I do not hate Steve Jobs, I find him charismatic and a brilliant man as far as human/machine interaction is concerned. I would love to be able to install OSX--I find it to be a superior product but I do not think it worth the amount of money it costs. iTunes originally was a DRM laden resource hog--that is what I have issue with here! It is superior graphically and from usability standpoints but those are not my concerns here.

When I say that I hate Microsoft, I do not mean that I hate all their employees. I hate problems that their products have and their marketing tactics. I would not hate someone just for working at a company that makes--what is in my opinion--an inferior product.

But I'll say it seems to me like some people are just very angry that people like Apple products, and will rant and rage, virtually unprompted, against Apple and all Apple products.

How is it "virtually unprompted?!" Apple's music service is mentioned in the summary! If I am not supposed to attack the products and services of a company, how am I to form a positive/negative opinion about them!?

Drop the fifth grade attacks about sexual orientation and grow up.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[UnknowingFool]

Yes but you can't take your Zune songs and play them on your iPod or any other player for that matter. I think this negates any criticism that iTunes locks you down to Apple's iPod products.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[AuMatar]

Look a bit further back, and see the giant hit they took from RROD failures. Also note that for the year this year they've lost money, despite making it last quarter. The xbox is still deep deep in the red, by billions over its lifetime. If it was any company but MS they'd be out of the industry already.

Of course Sony is losing big too- the PS3 has lost more money than the PS1 and 2 made combined (although long term they may make money on blu-ray, which would be mainly due to the PS3 launching it). Only Nintendo is making a profit in console hardware.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[bestalexguy]

Microsoft showed a large chunk of effort, humility, and innovation

... and supreme disdain for money, since they lose some for each box sold.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[BitZtream]

I've tried to buy from Amazon, because I'd rather do that than buy from apple, move the songs to a virtual machine, run them through QTFairUse with an old version of iTunes, copy the originals to a nice backup directory for safe keeping, copy the now decrypted files to my music share, go back to itunes, find the files, import them to the library (or reimport the entire library and remove dups later).

Its been easier to do that than for me to find any song I wanted on Amazon. I also could get great music from emusic.com, you know what? same problem, I'm not into indie music, I do like the pop-crap that is turned out these days in many cases, and finding any song I've ever bother to look for on Amazon has been pointless.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Rewind]

I would say in every possible way except price. Sony has just been playing catchup there.

As a huge fan of the PS1, PS2, and PSP I really wanted to like the PS3. As much as I want to, I just can't. Most everything good on it you can get on the 360, it is too expensive, Gran Tourismo is never coming out as far as I can tell. It pretty much fails at anything but playing BR movies for me, including the PSN. It is more a BR box than anything else (again at least for me).

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[BitZtream]

Uhm... what? Pretty much every console since the dreamcast has done that, most of the time the failure modes result in the error light not indicating an error, but its been there for a while. Its called good engineering. If you have a device that knows its not going to work and can give some sort of indication that its broken, it makes phone based tech support far easier. Just like BIOS post beeps.

Now, had you addressed the fact that it failed so many times that EVERYONE knows about it, then it would be different. When all of your products come out and have a ' * of death' (insert blue screen, red ring, green screen depending on your hardware choice), then you have a problem.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Anonymous Coward]

Well if you want to pick nits, nobody explicitly said Amazon ever had DRM on their music download store. You could argue that Amazon has "moved to music download services free of copy protection" in that they moved into music download services, and those services don't use DRM.

Are you serious? That would be like if I was introduced to my friend's new girlfriend and I said "Hey, Al, I see Peter and you have moved to dating girls that don't have herpes!"
 

Oh, if anyone wanted to nitpick I could just say that I mean Al is now dating women and Peter is the one who used to date someone with herpes.

While we're nitpicking, no you couldn't. Following your own analogy and the parent's logic you could say: "Peter and Al are both dating girls that don't have herpes, but Al hasn't dated before."

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[vectorious]

Amazon now works in the UK too

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[PitaBred]

3. They bought a mediocre game franchise "Halo"

There, fixed that for you

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[OzRoy]

That isn't true.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/
http://www.amazon.de/
http://www.amazon.fr/
http://www.amazon.co.jp/
http://www.amazon.ca/

I only checked the first few, but they all have music stores.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Anonymous Coward]

In what way is this automobile better then say, a train. Which I could also afford?

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[PitaBred]

XBox Live is actually decent to use. The PS Network sucks... waiting in line at a virtual fucking bowling alley? Even if it's free, it's not worth using. It's like saying that a putrid sandwich from last week you found in the gutter is better than the one you bought for lunch today since it was free.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty much every conceivable way, except for price.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[LWATCDR]

Hey I agree. I only own a Wii well that and a PS3, Dreamcast, N64, and an original XBox.
Nintendo produced a console that is fun, profitable, and popular.
There are many ways to pick best.
Most advanced, most fun, most profitable.
Nintendo seems to have the fun and profitable down pat so the don't need the advanced part yet.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[ceoyoyo]

Amazon Canada will be very happy to sell you a CD.

Can't read Japanese, so I have no idea.

Amazon France lists their offerings by format, all of them physical, from vinyl to minidisk.

Amazon Germany ditto.

Amazon UK DOES do music in electronic format now. I believe it's quite recent.

So by "checked" you mean you loaded the page and looked for a tab titled "Music?"

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Anonymous Coward]

That's half true.

The debts incurred to date are a sunk cost. Xbox is reliably turning a profit each quarter now, but as you indicate their lifetime profits have not exceeded their lifetime debts. If they are able to continue on their current course (despite the crumbling economy), they will come out net positive.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[WiseWeasel]

Apple's main competition in music distribution is P2P piracy, so yes.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[WiseWeasel]

Look closer. Those are CDs they're selling, not MP3 downloads.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[dangitman]

Is it possible that I have a personal bias against iTunes? Yes. Yes it is.

That's fine, but really doesn't have much to do with things. Just because you don't like iTunes doesn't mean you should misrepresents the facts and history of the major labels and iTunes selling DRM-free music.

The fact that Amazon was able to open a DRM-free store is in large part to do with Apple's relationship with the labels, and Apple was the first to sell major-label music DRM free, before Amazon started.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[F'Nok]

My friends list on PSN is persistent, and used regularly on many games.
It's a single, automatic (if you leave default setting) sign-in. If games make their own accounts, that's the developer, and there are bad developers on EVERY platform.
WTF is "singularity in online requirements/standards" supposed to mean? A console IS a standard requirement, and both require a broadband connection to do much more than look at pretty web pages.

My PS3 patches in a couple minutes.

Xbox does not have an equivalent to @Home, which is actually a pretty cool feature on PSN.

PSN IS FREE.

I know Xbox Live was better at release, as PSN was very poor on release.
But the current Live vs PSN puts them at a similar level, but only one is free.

If you want to pay for a similar service, that's fine; but just because you paid doesn't make it better.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[mjwx]

The 360 is only doing well because Microsoft actually has a very good product. Of course the did a lot of the ground work with the original XBox. 1. They have the best online system. Sony's is a bad joke and Nintendo's is very limited.
2. They made very good Developer tools.
3. They made a great game franchise "Halo"
4. Now they are embracing Netflix for movie downloads which is frankly brilliant and so not like Microsoft.
5. They now have the lowest entry point with the Arcade.
Even then they are in second place to Nintendo. Frankly the 360 beats the Wii in power, and online. The Wii is doing so well because of the controls and the great first party software from Nintendo.
If any thing Microsoft showed a large chunk of effort, humility, and innovation in the game console market. The exact opposite of their standard business practices.

Not that 1 and 4 matter for people outside the US (there is a world outside the US) especially in countries where the broadband has ridiculous limitations (A$50 for a 10 GB cap).

1. Still limited to the kind of free systems offered on PC's. Not worth the money.
2. Dev tools are still expensive, especially compared to the PC.
3. Cant stomach Halo, I like games that have substance and are not exercises in repetition, I like games that are not exercises in repetition, I like games that are not exercises in repetition (fun isn't it?). This is no different to the Mario, Half-Life, COD or myriad of other successful game series, Halo just had more PR.
4. not everyone can get netflix, plus you can get it on your PC and some media centres.
5. The Xbox arcade is definitely inferior to the Wii, it takes out almost everything you claim is good about the Xbox.
It really doesn't matter which console is more powerful, the PS3 is more powerful then the Xbox 360 but the PS3 is still selling like crap.The PC is still, more powerful then any console (high def since 1999) so if its power you're after the Xbox is a very poor choice, in addition to this the development costs are lower, both in the cost of entry (both in license fees which are $0 and in development tool cost) and in dev time itself. This is reflected in the cost of games, in Australia Fallout 3 on release was A$80 for PC and A$110 for Xbox360 (didn't check PS3, they were in another section altogether). Content delivery platforms like Steam and Impulse are far more mature then the online delivery for any of the consoles.

I have a Wii and a gaming PC, I use the PC for hardcore games and the occasional multilayer game over the internet (TF2, UT, possibly L4D sometime in the future but I don't get much time to play online these days) and I use the Wii for playing with friends, the Wii is in first place in the console race because it's fun. The Wii is what a console should be, casual, simple, excellent split screen multilayer. Nintendo won by targeting the casual market. Sony and Microsoft couldn't have been more wrong in thinking that it would be "titles" or "power" that sold consoles, its fun. Sony wont change their thinking but Microsoft will, Microsoft whilst arrogant is far from dumb so the next Xbox will be a casual gaming console modelled after the Wii, the PS4 will be more of the PS3 but less successful. Between its current advantages and the new power advantages provided by 64-bit OS's "hardcore" gaming will come back to the PC.

In addition to this I have yet to see a strategy game, be it real time or turn based that is playable on a console. Supreme Commander and Civilisation Revolutions were horrible games/ports that should have been aborted in development and don't even think of bringing up Command and Conquer 3, that wasn't a strategy game, it was a tank rushing game and could have been played with two buttons 1. build tank and 2. send tanks at enemy base ad nauseum until someone is defeated.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[F'Nok]

I'm pretty sure the Wii sells at a profit.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[indiechild]

Hell, yes.

Hello? The world doesn't consist of only the US and the UK!

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought iTunes's unprotected files were still in aac format, does Zune play aac?

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[FutureDomain]

Well now that ITunes is going DRM free the Zune is even less interesting.

Purchased Zune music is DRM free. It's only the ZunePass subscription service that uses DRM to ensure that you don't keep the music after you cancel your subscription. Music purchased with Microsoft Points or the 10 credits ZunePass subscribers get every month is in DRM-free MP3 format.

Obligatory: I own a Zune, you insensitive clod!

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[shaitand]

'Exactly. I'm sick of people on the net being so US-centric extolling the virtues of services like hulu, netflix and amazon to people who have no ability to access those services regardless of the OS they use.'

*Looks around* Ummm... dude. You do realize you are talking to people in the U.S. on a U.S. website and U.S. forum? There are quite a few international guests here but they are just that, guests, USians are still the natives on Slashdot. Anything said here is safely assumed to be directed at a U.S. audience just like the text in a U.S. based magazine would assume a U.S. audience.

It isn't our fault that all the good web content is intended for people in the U.S. any more than it is our fault that 80% of the medical schools around the globe have websites that sound like a sales pitch to U.S. students, touting pass rates of U.S. board exams, etc.

I suspect it has to do with people being greedy and the U.S. having the largest economy in the world (even now since its crash pretty much took the rest of the world with it). That's just a guess though.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[shaitand]

No but the intended audience of this website does consist of the US not the entire world. ;) The international guests seem a bit uppity tonight. Not our fault that all good web content (including Slashdot) is U.S. Based and targeted.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[shaitand]

I dunno, I hate itunes for installing quicktime because I hate quicktime. The format isn't so bad (if dated at this point) but the problem is that the player aggressively steals file association with all the common video and audio filetypes. I mean I'm all for playing quicktime files in quicktime but there is nothing else I want loading in it.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[nametaken]

That conversation ends quickly with, "a PS wazzat?"

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh, an apple apologist. You've clearly spent quite a bit of money with Apple, so I can see why you would want to defend them.... because deep down you know you've been ripped off, and all you got was something shiny that was cool for 3 months. I bet it didn't even get you laid.

My experience of itunes is that you might be able to turn off some annoyances, but there are other things it seems to do that cannot be turned off, and there will be new annoyances with the next version. There are things itunes does that have to be manually stopped over and over (I'm thinking of some little x thing that has to clicked on by the playback time counter, and if you miss the chance to click it itunes will lock up until its finished doing what its doing. Clearly high quality programing there (that you have paid for, hahaha)!).

What if you only want to use itunes for music? You still get have to have to allow the quicktime infestation, with all the added benefits of it hijacking lots of settings and associations (and even shit like web browser plugins).

itunes seems to try and analyse music for peak levels, utterly ignoring any replaygain values that may be in the tags already (it has to be done the Apple way). It seems to aggressively try and get album art and embed it in your mp3s, even if you already have album art saved with your music (it has to be done the Apple way). Having music stored on a different computer makes the whole thing orders of magnitude slower, and itunes locks up for periods very frequently when trying to access a music stash on a "server". This get worse again if wireless networking is involved. "But iTunes has music sharing features built in" the apologists will wail.... yet again, it has to be done the Apple way or it is fucking unbearable.

And if you try to stop itunes fucking up your music stash by making it read only, itunes behaves even worse, as it seems to have a bit of a sit down and cry every time it can't write to a file.

Where does itunes get the album art from? I bet whoever runs that is getting quite a nice stash of unique IDs and music collection data to sell on to the highest bidder (or just to pass onto their "business partners" (=RIAA)).

ac@slashdot:~$ time audacious .......
real 0m9.294s
user 0m5.760s
sys 0m0.428s

That is me starting audacious and closing it once the window appeared. Oh, and there are currently 36802 MP3s in that application, held on a different computer all over wireless, and this laptop is only a celeron 1.4. I cringe at the thought of trying to load 37 kilomp3s into itunes. Can itunes even load and be responsive in under 10 seconds with a respectable amount of music in it? Based on my experience of it, no fucking way.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Ihmhi]

$50 a year. All that really gets you is the demos/videos/etc. a week earlier and the ability to play online. Cross-game friends list and all of the other smooth stuff comes with the Silver (free) package.

MS actually makes Live worth the $50 a year if you play console games online. (I don't, but a few of my friends do.) Sony's is free but because they don't hold their publishers to any standards, there are tons of problems.

You get what you pay for.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Anonymous Coward]

You can buy mp3s via Amazon in the UK too. I think they introduced it for the UK around Christmas as they had a "£3 off per customer" promotional deal for christmas day and boxing day for orders in their mp3 store (the offer wasn't restricted to orders over a certain amount either, so you could place an order that was completely free - I got Elbow's latest album for nothing).

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[wintermute000]

FINALLY someone who gets the point.

You know, why is it glamorous for IT geeks to wilfully ignore basic business principles. You know, how like there's a lot of other ways to use 7 billion to generate more mony over 3-4 years...

Anyhow thanks for pointing it out, I was almost facepalming myself at the Kotaku-esque mini-thread and nobody got the main point (which you elegantly summarised)

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[TheThiefMaster]

The single most annoying thing about xbox live is getting kicked out when it detects an update for a game. It doesn't even wait until you accept the update, it just cuts you in the middle of your voice chat.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[TheThiefMaster]

They don't look like CDs: http://www.amazon.co.uk/MP3-Music-Download/b/ref=sa_menu_dm1?ie=UTF8&node=77197031&pf_rd_p=218610391&pf_rd_s=left-nav-1&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_i=468294&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=0FP8207JX6SK1TEG62GB

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Jesus_666]

That's UK only. Well, admittedly the LPs sold by Amazon Germany aren't CDs either but they also aren't digital. You only get MP3s in the UK and the US, making Apple's offering infinitely better everywhere else.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Gnorthern Gnome]

Funny and here I am having spent several years downloading DRM free, low cost, 320kbps tracks from 7Digital whilst also enjoying their added support for unsigned bands, but nobody cares about that. Don't act so persnickety about one person slightly misrepresenting a huge market monopoly whilst defending another unduly.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[LWATCDR]

Well Halo is very very popular so I am pretty sure that it doesn't suck.
I have not played it myself. My favorite game? FS2004 and FSX.
There is also a world outside Australia. It seems that broadband is cheaper everywhere but Australia. From what I have heard just about everything game related is more expensive in Australia.
The XBox arcade will still play games on line with no problem. You can add and HD for it for just about the same cost as buying it from the start.
Now I do think Microsoft is being dumb on two counts.
1. Put in wifi!
2. Allow the end user to use Microsoft Home Server for mass storage. This would make so much sense. It would probably really help the sale of MHS and push the all microsoft home.

So what it comes down to is you are a PC gamer and like the Wii for social gaming which is just fine. I love my Wii as well but the 360 does rival the PS3 for pure power and has a much easier programing model so it is easier to use the power available.
Now I wounder what the next Wii will bring. I am hoping they will take advantage of Moore's Law and make a faster Wii with HD graphics. I can see them not putting in an HD. Flash is getting cheaper and cheaper and there could allow you to use and SMB share for mass storage if you really wanted to. Or they could support USB HDs if needed.
If Nintendo put Boxee on the next Wii and supported HD It would rock. Oh and no need for a BlueRay on the Wii, DVD I feel is good enough.

HardCore gaming going back the PC? I never thought it left. But Consoles are easier and cheaper then gaming PCs. They will always have a big place in game market until every PC comes with a great video card and is dirt cheap.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[yyr]

I can private chat with up to 4 (I think) other people over Xbox Live, no matter what game I/they am playing, or whether they're even playing a game or not. We can even quit games and start new ones without disrupting the chat at all.

I talk to a friend of mine like this all the time. It's great, and it's something that you'll probably never see on PSN. MS was thinking WAY forward when they designed the 360's OS and network structure.

Some of the features of Live's content are also far superior. There are literally several HUNDRED retail game demos, and *every* purchasable downloadable title--100% of them--can be tried before buying. Most of PSN's games and all of WiiWare cannot be sampled. Lame, lame, lame.

BTW, you don't even need to pay for Xbox Live to take advantage of private chat or game trials. But I'd expect that subscribers help pay for bandwidth. Makes no difference to me...I'm getting real value out of my $3/month, as far as I'm concerned.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[TheSunborn]

Are you sure it's Mp3? I thought they did ship the music in their own wma format? Why the hell are they using mp3?

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[yyr]

But at least the updates usually take under 30 seconds to receive, and don't have an "install" process to sit through. In less than a minute, you're back to what you were doing before.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[yyr]

Singularity is basically this: Microsoft requires developers who ship 360 games to have their online features work in a single specific way. That is why you never see EULAs or create other accounts, why all menus look the same, why every game has leaderboards and achievements, etc...because it's mandated and has been since the beginning. You know that the experience is going to be seamless when you open the shrinkwrap.

360 patches take seconds. PS3's take at least 5-10 minutes to download and "install." I hate waiting for downloaded demos to "install" when on 360 I can play as soon as the download is finished. Plus, it can continue downloading after I've shut the system down (and turn itself completely off when finished).

Home is not a "pretty cool feature," it is a waste of time. It's a glorified chat room, with a house each user can personalize...if they want to pay real money for accessories. Chat rooms are old and tired already and the avatars are all ugly. I can't believe they actually released it.

PSN is not and never will be on a similar level as Live. Let me know when I can private chat across different games, try all downloadable games before I buy them, use a single user name and friends list in ALL of my games, and... here's a big one... have a guarantee that online multiplayer service will never end in the games that I play.

That's right folks...Microsoft runs the matching servers for all online Xbox and Xbox 360 games (except for EA's). PS3 leaves it up to the developers, so if they want to stop service, you're SOL. But for any non-EA game on Xbox or Xbox 360, you'll be able to play a match for as long as Xbox Live exists and you know one other person who has the game and wants to play it with you. This is one big thing that makes the service worth paying for, and one that will certainly come to the forefront in a few years.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

DAMN YOU! (shakes tiny fist in impotent rage) You're right. That is better...

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[supernova_hq]

...with a well known light configuration...

I believe I did address that fact...

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Anonymous Coward]

Nitpicking, but it works in the UK too.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Smauler]

Do you actually check where all web content is based? Besides, Loads of stories are international (I counted 2 in my RSS feed directly referring to another country, and I'm guessing 5 more about international stories. There were 0 stories referring to the US). Slashdot is international.... If you don't like it, go to slashdot.us.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[FutureDomain]

Check the site, it's MP3. The subscription music is in WMA, but not the purchased music. They probably chose it because it's guaranteed DRM free, works on any player (including the iPod), and can compete with Amazon and other music sites.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Anonymous Coward]

2. They made very good Developer tools.

Did you mean developer, developer, developer, developer tools?

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Alsee]

Now you can buy songs from iTunes and play them on your Zune.(*)

(*) Leap days not included.

-

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[Pyroja]

Y'know, I dunno. I mean, when you take a long hard look at them, you find that they are both worth exactly what you pay for them.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[westyvw]

"The 360 is only doing well because Microsoft actually has a very good product."

You lost me right there. They actually had a very bad product and they knew it.

However, they continued to throw money at it, and may have achieved the rest of your list.
And yes Xbox may be ahead of the ps3, but as of December 2008, the Wii was almost 2 to 1. Add the PS3 to the PS2 and Xbox very barely holds that number 2 spot. However, factor in the PSP and DS and Microsoft is waaaaayyyyyy behind.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[jfanning]

I don't know why everyone got excited when Apple went DRM-free, I've been buying DRM free MP3 singles from Amazon for over a year.

Everyone is missing an incredibly huge point with Amazon vs. iTunes.

Amazon is only in the US and maybe UK (if it is open there yet). iTunes is more or less global.

iTunes is the only DRM free solution available for most people world-wide.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[jfanning]

You must be new here...

I would guess that you have absolutely no idea how many non-US citizens are on Slashdot.

Of course, now that the US is nearly a third-world country, it is much easier for us Europeans to take over the world.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[shaitand]

'I would guess that you have absolutely no idea how many non-US citizens are on Slashdot.'

Just because there are lots of guests doesn't change the fact that USians are the citizens.

'Of course, now that the US is nearly a third-world country, it is much easier for us Europeans to take over the world.'

How? Last I checked the European economies are all crashing right along with us since they are largely dependent upon suckling on large USian teets (much like the foreign guests here suckle in the form of their dependence on this USian technology forum).

All joking aside, I love having a diverse international audience here on Slashdot and think it makes for interesting and rich discussion. That still doesn't change the fact that this is a USian forum and comments are intended to be read by US audiences. General sums should be in US units and currency, decimals should be defined with a period, etc. It's no different than a US magazine like Vogue. Vogue is probably read by people all over the world, but it is written from the standpoint of USian authors directed toward USian readers, no qualification for the sake of international correctness will be present.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[jfanning]

That still doesn't change the fact that this is a USian forum and comments are intended to be read by US audiences. General sums should be in US units and currency, decimals should be defined with a period, etc. It's no different than a US magazine like Vogue. Vogue is probably read by people all over the world, but it is written from the standpoint of USian authors directed toward USian readers, no qualification for the sake of international correctness will be present.

And I guess since you are running Slashdot you are the authoritative source for this knowledge.

I'm sure Cmdr Taco might say otherwise.

Re:Another Bomb Here to Stay

[F'Nok]

Singularity is basically this: Microsoft requires developers who ship 360 games to have their online features work in a single specific way. That is why you never see EULAs or create other accounts, why all menus look the same, why every game has leaderboards and achievements, etc...because it's mandated and has been since the beginning. You know that the experience is going to be seamless when you open the shrinkwrap.

That requirement could be defeated as soon as a developer decides they don't want to play that game. MS trying to make it a requirement is the same as the requirements Nintendo used to place on consoles.
While it does get results, it is something that can also be abused, and can stand in the way of innovation by the developer.

I do agree that a standard interface defined by the manufacturer is good though, and I've noticed that newer PS3 games are adopting this trend too.

360 patches take seconds. PS3's take at least 5-10 minutes to download and "install." I hate waiting for downloaded demos to "install" when on 360 I can play as soon as the download is finished. Plus, it can continue downloading after I've shut the system down (and turn itself completely off when finished).

Perhaps you completely missed it, but my PS3 updates that fast too.
Perhaps it's your connections, or the update servers for your region.

Home is not a "pretty cool feature," it is a waste of time. It's a glorified chat room, with a house each user can personalize...if they want to pay real money for accessories. Chat rooms are old and tired already and the avatars are all ugly. I can't believe they actually released it.

Purely a matter of opinion.
I like @Home and use it regularly; Live has no equivalent.
Nothing stops you from choosing not to use such a feature if it exists, but on Live there's no choice.

PSN is not and never will be on a similar level as Live. Let me know when I can private chat across different games, try all downloadable games before I buy them, use a single user name and friends list in ALL of my games, and... here's a big one... have a guarantee that online multiplayer service will never end in the games that I play.

Never? Seems like a strong word here; do you have inside information from Sony that none of us know about, indicating that they intend to not update PSN to compete?
Yes, I can private chat across games.
Yes, many games have demos freely available (just as many as Live) including for PSP games!
No, Microsoft cannot guarantee that online servers will always run. PlaysForSure I bet.

That's right folks...Microsoft runs the matching servers for all online Xbox and Xbox 360 games (except for EA's). PS3 leaves it up to the developers, so if they want to stop service, you're SOL. But for any non-EA game on Xbox or Xbox 360, you'll be able to play a match for as long as Xbox Live exists and you know one other person who has the game and wants to play it with you. This is one big thing that makes the service worth paying for, and one that will certainly come to the forefront in a few years.

If EA did it differently, then so can others.

As I said, it's up to the developers, and you've only confirmed that.

Great business model.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure their subscribers will enjoy paying for the same thing multiple times.

At least they're honest

[Anonymous Coward]

Glad they're not trying to market this as "plays for sure (except when we release a new device and want to sell you music again)"

Enough already

[djupedal]

Slashdot is a Microsoft shill....

Re:Enough already

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot is a Microsoft shill....

Shut your trap, you fucking Microsoft fanboi retard!

Re:Enough already

[mcgrew]

Not according to uncyclopedia. Some quotes from that fine tome:

"Netcraft confirms it - Slashdot *is* filled with Linux fanboys." ~ Bill Gates on Slashdot

"No good editors like Kuro5hin has, No nice layout like Digg.com, Lame !!!." ~ CmdrTaco on Slashdot

"In Soviet Russia, slashdot trolls YUO!." ~ Russian Reversal on Slashdot

"On the streets these days, a dime bag of kittens costs a pretty penny." ~ Oscar Wilde on Slashdot's "offtopic" moderation

Summary

[ivan256]

"We're looking to gouge customers who are too stupid to look elsewhere."

Re:Summary

[Midnight Thunder]

"We're looking to gouge customers who are too stupid to look elsewhere."

Well someone has to look after them ;)

Re:Summary

[jopsen]

The only reason such users end up at microsofts shop is because msn is default start page in IE... E.g. to some users msn IS the internet.

Re:Summary

[initialE]

"Hi, I'm Hugh Griffiths, Head of Mobile at Microsoft UK and I just found out that I'm about to be laid off. Instead of asking me to pack my bags they're letting me carry on doing my job, which includes things like talking to reporters and shit. So here I am, what I'm gonna do is to spew out all of my bile and anger at the company, all the while pretending to still love my job."

OMG

[ArhcAngel]

I'm trying to think of something witty to put here but I can't stop laughing long enough to breathe. Almost everything I come up with starts with In Soviet Russia.....

Re:OMG

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm trying to think of something witty to put here but I can't stop laughing long enough to breathe. Almost everything I come up with starts with In Soviet Russia.....

Lolz... best quote I have heard all day! (I know I probably havn't been trolling enough)

Re:OMG

[DoofusOfDeath]

I'm trying to think of something witty to put here but I can't stop laughing long enough to breathe. Almost everything I come up with starts with In Soviet Russia.....

If you can be incapacitated by In Soviet Russia jokes, then I strongly suggest you frequent a different website.

Re:OMG

[jopsen]

In Soviet Russia the mob of stupid users steals from large cooperations!

On the day Microsoft announces layoffs.....

[ip_freely_2000]

....you get morons sitting around a conference table convincing themselves that this is a good a idea. Microsoft reports revenue shortfalls because of wasteful, stupid ideas like this.

Re:On the day Microsoft announces layoffs.....

[Dan667]

How did these Microsoft Managers with ideas like this keep their jobs and not get laid off?

Re:On the day Microsoft announces layoffs.....

[BitZtream]

Perhaps that was the point, I'm rather certain from the statements made that he's aware of the situation that he's in. He 'didn't realize the layoffs were today and it was bad timing' yet other people (stockholders) get to see that MS does stupid shit, and he's not really breaking any rules.

Re:On the day Microsoft announces layoffs.....

[FutureDomain]

Well at least they're trying a new bad idea, unlike SCO...

Hahaha hahahahaaa surreal !!!

[unity100]

just as some people were saying 'they are starting to listen to customers now' due to windows 7, this happens.

boy. talk about 'twilight zone' kind of surreal.

Re:Hahaha hahahahaaa surreal !!!

[xenolion]

can you die of laughter cause i hurt right now...

Re:Hahaha hahahahaaa surreal !!!

[Frequency Domain]

MS is not some giant monolith, any more than any company is. It's comprised of individuals, some of whom are more clueless than others. This is not meant as a defense of them, just an observation that managers on one project may have started listening to consumer feedback while managers on another project are continuing business as usual.

Re:Hahaha hahahahaaa surreal !!!

[RKThoadan]

Yes...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_hilarity

I think you know the answer to that.

[ForrestFire439]

" "Well, I think you know the answer to that."" What I condescending prick...

Re:I think you know the answer to that.

[irving47]

It takes every misgiving and paranoid delusion I have about "Big Business" and amplifies them by 100. I'm a pretty conservative "Free-market" kinda guy, but hearing this sort of thing makes me hope the Obama administration and their DOJ take the gloves off when it comes to monopolies and breaking them up.

Re:I think you know the answer to that.

[mea37]

Hm. If there were an anti-trust trial of MS today, are you sure they'd be found to hold monopoly power? In which market? In the past they've been found to hold an OS monopoly; but I don't think it's straight-forward to say they have a music monopoly, or that their DRM policy somehow leverages their OS monopoloy to competitive advantage in the music area...

For full disclosure, I didn't think the prevous trial's finding of fact did a very good job of establishing MS as a monopoly.

But either way, that was before MacOS on Intel. It was before sub-laptops that have some of the least technical people I know using Linux. I'm pretty sure it was before any major seller of PC's offered a pre-install of non-MS operating systems.

And you know what..

[Creepy Crawler]

I had a friend who bought a eBook from CourseSmart (hint: DONT BUY from them).

He's not that smart in computers, but bought this ebook and then found out you can only print 10 pages and it disables itself after 6 months. He paid 50$ less than the real textbook. I said WTF...

Anyways, he's stuck with some god awful cripple-book... until I un-fucked it. Well, what did I do?

1.The book was reminiscent of a PDF reader, however, rotation options are not present. So, I tell the screen driver (running on the eeeclone from acer) to flip 90 degrees.
2.I tell the cripplebook reader to go full screen, which it does. It turns out, you can turn pages by pressing left and right.
3.I found a GPL MSWindows screenshot tool that formats pngs via name_0001 I set it up to save to ./book/
4.I do prtscn/right 812 times for those images.

Hooray, you have unDRMed images of cripplebook.

Now for cleaning:
5.Use gimp to determine crop area (use mogrify to mass crop). We need a rect region with offset. Then use mogrify to mass crop.
6.Use convert to convert all sequential images to 1 pdf.

You now have an unfucked PDF that would have "deleted" itself otherwise.

Re:And you know what..

[Anonymous Coward]

Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Re:And you know what..

[qoncept]

Sweet! Next time, if you want to make it a little easier, you could just go buy the real book, scan every page with your all-in-one printer, then take the book back.

Sorry, I just needed to show off my tech savvy-ness.

Re:And you know what..

[zippthorne]

If it's worth buying, it's worth keeping. University buy-back programs are a joke.

DRM revival or delayed service release?

[Narnie]

So is Hugh Griffiths (Microsoft) trying to revive DRM or is their development cycle about 2 years late?

So...

[roc97007]

This is the kinder, gentler Microsoft we heard about just yesterday?

Re:So...

[Alsee]

This is the kinder, gentler Microsoft we heard about just yesterday?

Yeah. They use lube now.

Well, they grabbed the Liquid Drano by accident, but they meant to use lube. And it's the thought that counts.

-

Bye bye

[DLPierson]

Well now we know who had better be one of the first layoffs. If they keep this moron around it says a lot about the future of Microsoft.

Hilarious...

[JustinOpinion]

This guy's answers are hilarious. They only make sense in a universe where everything is inherently locked down, and your customers are idiots to be abused.

Why has Microsoft gone back to DRM ...? It's a first step. ... We'll be looking to enhance the service if we get some interest from consumers. ... At the moment, to be honest with you, we don't have the functionality in-house to provide a mechanism for transferring between mobile phones and PC.

You don't really have to provide a "mechanism" if you just left the system open. If the files were non-DRM and the phone had an open interface (e.g. you plug in a USB cable and can browse/transfer files on it), then the transferring step is trivial.

With the likes of iTunes and Amazon offering DRM-free music that you can play on any device, why would anyone choose the MSN Mobile service?
There may well be people who just want to listen to the track on their mobile alone

Which, again, would be trivially easy with an open system. If the phone were open, I could download a track from Amazon and put it on my phone. So the only reason to use the MSN service is "because of lock-in."

And in response to the question:

What is your message to consumers - why should I come to you instead of Amazon or iTunes? What do you offer that none of your competitors do?

...his answer actually doesn't contain an answer. He just mentions that some people are using the service. Without being explicit, he's basically saying "some users won't know any better."

Can you really expect people to buy music that's locked to a device they upgrade every 12 to 18 months?
I didn't realise phones were churning that quickly in the marketplace these days. ...

Wow. Just... wow. That's impressive market research on their part. They are not sure how long people keep their cellphones. And they see no issue with requiring digital files to expire whenever the hardware does.

This overpriced and highly restricted product has a clear future ahead...

Re:Hilarious...

[nine-times]

You don't really have to provide a "mechanism" if you just left the system open. If the files were non-DRM and the phone had an open interface (e.g. you plug in a USB cable and can browse/transfer files on it), then the transferring step is trivial.

Not only that, but you're talking about Microsoft-- the company that makes the desktop OS on most PCs as well as the OS on a good percentage of smartphones. If they can't make a mechanism work on to sync between their own desktop OS and their own phone OS, they're pretty well f*#$ed.

Wow. Just... wow. That's impressive market research on their part. They are not sure how long people keep their cellphones. And they see no issue with requiring digital files to expire whenever the hardware does.

That's they don't know that people sometimes replace their phone within a year isn't the part that bothers me about that question. Hell, let's suppose that 12-18 months is too short an estimate of how long people hold onto their phones. Let's say, instead, that it's 5 years, which is a pretty high number. Still, let's go with that for the sake of argument. It still doesn't address the question-- "Can you really expect people to buy music that's locked to a device they upgrade every 5 years?"

Re:Hilarious...

[BigBuckHunter]

This just in. Microsoft will now be laying off "5001" workers.

BBH

Re:Hilarious...

[laddiebuck]

This guy's answers are hilarious. They only make sense in a universe where everything is inherently locked down, and your customers are idiots to be abused.

Don't know if you've noticed, but that is the MSN universe, in a nutshell. For that matter, it's a lot of the Microsoft universe. And it's big.

Re:Hilarious...

[nedlohs]

For higher end phones people might keep them for a few years, but in the UK a normal mobile phone contract (with a free phone) is 12 or 18 months. At the end of that I would expect (if they are anything like their US counterparts) they offer you another free phone if you'll sign for another 12 or 18 month contract.

People who get an iphone or whatever and probably pay upfront for part of the phone might just keep the one they have, but almost everyone who got the freeby (well embedded in the monthly charges) will take the new phone if they are happy with the service, or go elsewhere (and get a new phone from them) if they aren't.

Re:Hilarious...

[Captain Spam]

Wow. Just... wow. That's impressive market research on their part. They are not sure how long people keep their cellphones. And they see no issue with requiring digital files to expire whenever the hardware does.

Well, I kept my last phone around for around four years or so! Of course, that was due to me not really having much need for new features on my phone at the time. Plus a lack of money to get a new one until relatively recently. Which also meant I lacked money to buy things like, say, $3.50 music tracks.

So look on the bright side, that's one hell of a market they're aiming for! People who either don't need a massive media player phone and thus probably wouldn't buy songs specifically for it even if they had one, or who can't afford to buy a new phone and also can't afford music tracks at a huge markup! Glad SOMEBODY'S tapping that market! :-)

Re:Hilarious...

[nine-times]

Sorry if I wasn't being very clear, but I wasn't trying to suggest that 12-18 months actually was too short. I was saying that whether or not that's how often people buy new phones is irrelevant. Even if they kept phones for much longer than that, it still doesn't justify forcing people to re-buy their music library every time they get a new phone.

Re:Hilarious...

[rudy_wayne]

"This guy's answers are hilarious. They only make sense in a universe where everything is inherently locked down, and your customers are idiots to be abused."

The whole thing is incredibly stupid, but, that's the beauty of a free society. Everyone is free to be incredibly stupid but you can just ignore it. The real questions to be asked are:

1. Why are you downloading songs to your cell phone?
B. Why are you buying them from Microsoft?

Re:Hilarious...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, they're trying very hard to give the impression that you have to ditch your old copy of Windows when you replace your computer as well.
Methinks that if the Steam platform was remade in the Microsoft mindset, locking games to a specific machine and OS version would go in as a matter of course. Seriously, they'd act completely surprised when people were upset because they had to buy the game again when they upgraded from Vista to Windows 7, and they'd think it was just a small minority of loud whiners.

Re:Hilarious...

[jopsen]

Because some users won't know any better...

Re:Hilarious...

[jimicus]

For higher end phones people might keep them for a few years, but in the UK a normal mobile phone contract (with a free phone) is 12 or 18 months. At the end of that I would expect (if they are anything like their US counterparts) they offer you another free phone if you'll sign for another 12 or 18 month contract.

Seeing as a lot of people find their battery doesn't hold a charge after 12-18 months of constant use and they'll be charged about £20-30 for a new one, that's not really terribly surprising.

Re:Hilarious...

[meringuoid]

If the phone were open, I could download a track from Amazon and put it on my phone.

This is the heart of what I think is the problem with these music-on-mobiles services. There's no could about it. I can and do load my phone with music from the same sources I load my PC. I just hook up via USB and copy it over. Done. The USB cable came with the phone; so did handy software for... I don't know what for, I never installed it because the phone's just another USB disk.

So I do this. My teenage sister does it a hell of a lot more than I do (I'm happy enough to have the original NES Zelda theme as my ringtone forever; she needs a new tune on a seemingly weekly basis). So do her friends. They Bluetooth tracks to each other at school. They use Audacity or similar to edit them down to make text-message tones too. It's amazing the level of computer literacy people will achieve in the name of having the latest cool ringtone. Go on public transport anywhere and you're sure to find a teenager sharing his love of - I don't know what, but probably something to do with pimpin hos in da hood - with the entire carriage. You can bet he didn't get that from Jamster.

People are already filling up their phones with music in exactly the same way that they fill up their mp3 players. Now, I can still just about imagine there being a niche for music RIGHT THE HELL NOW delivered via 3G, but I can't imagine it being a mass market thing. Premier League goals as they happen via 3G? Yes please. New ringtones? That can wait till I get home.

Re:Hilarious...

[blind biker]

I don't think they'll fire him. After all, who the fuck would employ this dolt? MS will keep him out of compassion pity.

Re:Hilarious...

[Detritus]

Many of the pay-as-you-go phones that I see on store shelves are being sold for substantially less than the price of a replacement battery. No contract needed.

Re:Hilarious...

[ekhben]

He didn't say they can't make a mechanism to sync files, he said they don't have a mechanism to sync files. Translation: they know very well that the files are obsoleted with the hardware, and that's a business strategy.

Likewise "weren't aware... churning ..." is more of a statement that they think the reporter is only looking at one segment of the marketplace. And it's true, most of the people in my social circles hang onto their phone until the battery life is briefer than ... the time I'm willing to spend thinking up a simile for that.

Re:Hilarious...

[Anonymous Coward]

With the likes of iTunes and Amazon offering DRM-free music that you can play on any device, why would anyone choose the MSN Mobile service?
There may well be people who just want to listen to the track on their mobile alone

The stupidity here needs to be quoted again and again.

Re:Hilarious...

[maugle]

Apparently they're trying to attract the lucrative "tech-savvy masochist" demographic.

Re:Hilarious...

[drew]

This guy's answers are hilarious. They only make sense in a universe where everything is inherently locked down, and your customers are idiots to be abused.

In other words he used to have the same position with a cell phone carrier? This guy would fit right in at Verizon.

Re:Hilarious...

[MBGMorden]

Pay as you go is typically only financially wise for people that use their phone very little though. The price per minute is MUCH higher, so if you use your phone a decent amount you're stuck with going with a monthly plan.

Also, every one I ever tried required some minimum purchase either per month or every two months to keep the line active, which meant that you still had at least some level of commitment on a regular basis.

Not saying that they don't have their uses, but they are fairly limited. The only plus that I've found is that a very select few of those phones can be hacked or unlocked and used on any network. You kinda have to do your research on them though.

In any event though, I'm typically pretty good to my cellphones. I have 3 still working older phones in my desk at home just as backups. My contract has also recently expired so I'm eligible for another freebie, but the old phone is still working fine. Keeping them sure beats paying $5 per month for the accident coverage. On the very rare possibility that I break one I'll just use one of the older ones until I'm up for a free one again.

Even longer

[SuperKendall]

I don't know why everyone got excited when Apple went DRM-free, I've been buying DRM free MP3 singles from Amazon for over a year.

Well since Apple was actually selling DRM free music from major labels with iTunes Plus even BEFORE the Amazon store opened, I agree with your surprise.

When EMI finally broke the stranglehold on DRM by agreeing to a DRM free iTunes presence, the other studios decided to try and break Apple by agreeing to all be in the Amazon store. It didn't really work out for them but eventually it worked out for the rest of us, in a way that companies like eMusic had not managed prior.

I don't think Microsoft is alone in their cling-to-DRM mentality.

The real question is, how much are labels still clinging to DRM? They are the only ones that really matter in the end. The agreement for all of them to sell DRM free music in more than one store was a watershed moment, but is this weird Microsoft arrangement something that had already been in the works or is it some new backsliding?

Re:Even longer

[Anonymous Coward]

The real question is, how much are labels still clinging to DRM? They are the only ones that really matter in the end. The agreement for all of them to sell DRM free music in more than one store was a watershed moment, but is this weird Microsoft arrangement something that had already been in the works or is it some new backsliding?

I wonder how much of this is down to Microsoft's future strategies.. They totally changed the way the audio & video drivers work in Vista/DX10 to support their DRM/TC strategies. Even though the labels are mostly supporting DRM-free music, Microsoft cant abandon all the stuff they spent so much time & money on.

Re:Even longer

[mcgrew]

The real question is, how much are labels still clinging to DRM?

I, for one, hope they stick with Dumb Restrictions on Media. DRM is a sick joke, and DRM music can do nothing but doom them further.

The RIAA labels are no longer needed by anybody. Twenty years ago the price of the tech was so high the artists NEEDED a label. Now every bar band in the country has a CD, and there are a lot of very good ones.

When we are free of RIAA labels and they and the RIAA are dead, the independant bands and labels will get a chance to get radio airplay.

For every RIAA CD there are 100 indie CDs. For every RIAA hit there are 100 excellent indie tunes you never heard. I, for one, want the indies to get airplay, and it won't happen until the buggy whip manufacturers are dead and gone.

Re:Even longer

[Abreu]

When we are free of RIAA labels and they and the RIAA are dead, the independant bands and labels will get a chance to get radio airplay.

OR, we could get tons and tons of "oldies" radio stations (at least that's whats happening here)

Re:Even longer

[Detritus]

What about all of the radio stations that expect payola in return for playing a record? There were a bunch of articles written about the sleazy "independent record promotions" industry not that long ago.

Re:Even longer

[Anonymous Coward]

I, for one, want the indies to get airplay, and it won't happen until the buggy whip manufacturers are dead and gone.

Could we just explode them with dynamite or something? Because it seems people have been saying the RIAA labels are history for quite awhile now. Rather than wait and wait and wait there's gotta be a faster way.

Re:Even longer

[Fulminata]

I think that's more an issue of demographics. We're stuck with the music that the baby boomers grew up listening to at least until enough of them die off that they're no longer the largest age demographic.

another spin on a vague quote

[theheadlessrabbit]

Q: "If I buy these songs on your service â" and they're locked to my phone â" what happens when I upgrade my phone in six months' time?"
A: "Well, I think you know the answer to that."

I know its microsoft we're dealing with here, and the default way to fill in the blanks is by assuming they will screw you; but, is there a possibility that there is an easy walk-around to this DRM, (sort of like the one in itunes) and he's being vague about it at the moment to keep the media companies happy?

i can't imagine MS would be THAT stupid to ignore such obvious common sense in the face of such steep competition. can they really be that out of touch? are they intentionally trying to fail?

Re:another spin on a vague quote

[je ne sais quoi]

Q: "i can't imagine MS would be THAT stupid to ignore such obvious common sense in the face of such steep competition. can they really be that out of touch? are they intentionally trying to fail?"

A: "Well, I think you know the answer to that."

Re:another spin on a vague quote

[powerlord]

i can't imagine MS would be THAT stupid to ignore such obvious common sense in the face of such steep competition. can they really be that out of touch? are they intentionally trying to fail?

You may be right and they aren't really that out of touch, but I wouldn't want to be the user who guesses they are "MS would never be THAT clueless", only to find out otherwise.

(for an example, see: "Plays For Sure")

Re:another spin on a vague quote

[jimicus]

He obviously got the first bit of the PR training - where they say "Never give a direct answer that makes us look bad, even if you're asked a direct question which can only be answered in a negative fashion".

Maybe he was in the bathroom when they said "Oh, and for goodness' sake people - if there really is no way you can make the product sound good, don't agree to the interview."

Re:another spin on a vague quote

[Anonymous Coward]

A: "Well, I think you know the answer to that."

Mininova, Pirate Bay, IsoHunt?

I don't know how the laws work elsewhere, nor here really but once you have bought a piece of music you can then download it in what ever media you like. Surely you bought a license to listen to the music as much as bought that media instance of it?

Premises don't support their conclusion

[causality]

While companies such as Apple and Amazon have finally moved to music download services free of copy protection, MSN Mobile locks tracks to the mobile handset they are downloaded to. It also charges more than the other services per track, and offers no way to transfer your tracks to your new phone when you upgrade.

This is why it contradicts itself. If [A] piracy is a problem (represents lost sales, etc.) and [B] DRM is the correct response to this problem, then it does not follow that a system using a rather strict form of DRM would charge more per track. If anything, this should make their prices cheaper, especially considering that the non-transferrability would cause some repeat purchases with no additional expenses incurred by the seller.

The company's Head of Mobile UK spoke to PC Pro about the launch, but his answers are almost as baffling as the service itself. Best quote: Q: "If I buy these songs on your service â" and they're locked to my phone â" what happens when I upgrade my phone in six months' time?" A: "Well, I think you know the answer to that.""

He is being unusually honest about this, although I don't think that's courage on his part but rather a reliance on the apathy of the average customer.

Re:Premises don't support their conclusion

[argent]

If [A] piracy is a problem (represents lost sales, etc.) and [B] DRM is the correct response to this problem, then it does not follow that a system using a rather strict form of DRM would charge more per track.

You see this weird relationship in eBooks too. The DRM-protected books always seem to cost more, even when the same book is available DRM-protected at one site and unprotected at another.

An even more interesting quote to me

[kipin]

Q: Can you really expect people to buy music that's locked to a device they upgrade every 12 to 18 months?

A: I didn't realise phones were churning that quickly in the marketplace these days. I'm sure there are some users who change their phone every year.

This answer is coming from the head of the Microsoft mobile division in the UK! How is it possible that he could be unaware that many individuals replace their phone every 12-18 months? This is completely mind baffling to me.

My Guess

[Anonymous Coward]

Q: "If I buy these songs on your service and they're locked to my phone what happens when I upgrade my phone in six months' time?"

A: "Well, I think you know the answer to that.""

My Guess: "Steel bolts spring out and plunge straight through both cheeks."

Well, something like that anyway, based on the track record.

Sell MSFT

[mfh]

This news proves that Microsoft is weak.

Re:Sell MSFT

[Anonymous Coward]

not as weak as those chumps over at sourceforge.

advertising for al jazeera shows how far they've fallen.

Re:Sell MSFT

[Nabeel_co]

not as weak as those chumps over at sourceforge.

Um... Isn't SourceForge and Slashdot owned by the same people?

Re:Sell MSFT

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that selling MSFT doesn't do you much good when the stock is already trading at a ten-year low.

MSFT closed at $17.11 today, the lowest price since 1998.

Let me fix that for you...

[FriendSite.com]

Answer... We'll be looking to enhance the service if we get some interest from consumers

Real Answer... We've hurriedly acquired some third party that provides a service that we kind of want and we're keeping our fingers crossed that it's profitable and works.

Answer... At the moment we don't have the functionality in-house to provide a mechanism for transferring between mobile phones and PC

Real Answer... We've blindly bought this company on a me-too whim - I have no idea what they do, and we're kind of regretting it that customers haven't thrown a ticker tape party for us, people do that for Apple when they release something cool.. WHHHHHHYYYY can't they do that for us :-(

Answer... I didn't realise phones were churning that quickly in the marketplace these days

Real Answer... I'm used to working in a big corporation where my incompetence and lack of on-the-trigger knowledge is drowned out by the number of people who work there. It means I have no idea about the product, where it'll go, how it will perform or how it works. I've just been told by my director to "Go do something like Apple or Amazon and we'll sort it all out later" ...

There.. fixed it for you Mr Griffiths

What's so surprising about that?

[BBandCMKRNL]

"Microsoft yesterday unveiled its MSN Mobile Music service -- and a surprise return to digital rights management (DRM).

What's so surprising about that given how much Microsoft has invested in DRM on all its platforms?

Re:What's so surprising about that?

[rob1980]

The DRM is indeed no surprise, but the fact that they're doing this after having just gotten through pulling the plugs on the authentication servers for a completely different music service is. Apparently it didn't fail bad enough to make them not want to try again.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9926476-7.html

SELL SELL SELL!!!1!

[bersl2]

I don't think you emphasized SELL enough. ;)

Here are his answers

[CSHARP123]

Why has Microsoft gone back to DRM when the vast majority of music services have ditched it?
A: It's a first step. We are looking for some idiots who do not look elsewhere on the web and we will make profit off of them.
With the likes of iTunes and Amazon offering DRM-free music that you can play on any device, why would anyone choose the MSN Mobile service?
A: There may well be people who are just idiots who buy whatever we throw at them.
The fee for downloading tracks - £1.50 - is relatively high compared to 79p on iTunes and less than that on certain Amazon tracks. Why is that?
A: Yes. We are not looking for people who are savvy enough to shop around. You are asking too many good questions. This service is not for you.

i guess

[mapkinase]

I guess, none of the DRM guys were among 5000 that will be fired in the next 18 months.

Surprising how?

[Thyamine]

I mean, sure it's surprising that people would do something like this, but it's also probably been in the works since before Apple made their announcement.

Otherwise, MS has made it clear they are trying to protect the 'rights' of the companies producing content by tying in protection with their OS. Trying to prevent unencrypted content from being sent over video connections or such. I'm not a video/audiophile, so I don't recall the specifics, but I'm sure someone can list them if needed.

They HAVE TO include DRM because...

[Zymergy]

... Their future downloadable software business models depend on it!
They would hate to have in place that you can actually purchase a single purchase and NOT have it locked to certain hardware.
For example, I have a single copy of WinXP Pro on a 300GB Raptor HDD.
I enjoy removing said drive and inserting in one of three computers with DIFFERENT HARDWARE depending on what I want to do.
Sure, it might be easier to pirate another copy of WinXP, but since I PAID FOR IT RETAIL (and it was NOT the Upgrade version) I believe I should be able to run said purchased code on any device I see fit to run it on. (so long as only that single installation copy is ever used at any given time no matter what PC is fits into..)
Sure, I get to have WGA the DRM fun every week or two, but who cares? I jsut call the number on speaker phone after the Internet activations fail and get the pweson on the other end of the phone to unlock it.
For some reason I ask to PAY FULL PRICE for another copy of WinXP Pro which DOES NOT use WGA (the corporate versions are like this) and I was flat told NO YOU CANNOT. I sadi ok, fine, I will call you every time your DRM locks my PC down and Microsoft can lose money every time you are forced to unlock its DRM "feature" (And NOT gain another sale and hopefully lose money for the trouble of the over 10 calls I have had to make so far...
So, I follow the stupid rules legitimately and use them against the DRM machine...

I believe MS is planning on using the DRM they are using in the MSN Music store as a sort of 'trial run' for what they hope to have as downloadable OS and Office apps very soon... (And the it will be a matter of time before said apps expire and they enforce a time-based subscription service like SlySoft.com just did when they took their licenses from eligible for updates to said software forever to only one year for the free updates.)

Re:They HAVE TO include DRM because...

[Creepy Crawler]

And your answer is brain-dead when they quit "offering" reactivations. And you say... that they will always offer reactivations?? Look at their "Plays for Sure" label.. I dont think it plays anymore.

I dont need to go ask mommy to reinstall.

fuddles should be charged with (soft)war crimes

[Anonymous Coward]

vista nearly doomed the already deteriorating pc 'business'. all that freakish greed/fear/ego based gangster behavior is so last failed regime.

What do they call it this time?

[Anonymous Coward]

They already used "PlaysForSure". Is it "FooledYouTwice" this time?

Re:What do they call it this time?

[farlukar]

"PlaysForAwhile"

I'm shocked!

[night_flyer]

No... wait... Im sorry, that was just gas....

Another question for them...

[Androclese]

Fake Q: "Do you really expect me to buy your product when I can get DRM-free music that I won't lose upon upgrade, cheaper, elsewhere?"

Real A: "Well, I think you know the answer to that."

Some day, this will happen...

[cephah]

MS Worker: "Sir, I hear you've decided to reintroduce DRM. Is this true?"
MS Head of Mobile: "Yep, I'm bringin' it back! Hurr!" *clicks on remote, turning on Justin Timberlake - Sexy Back*

Justin Timberlake: I'm bringin' seeexy bac-- **DRM AUTHORIZATION FAILURE, PLEASE CONTACT VENDOR FOR SUPPORT OR REPURCHASE ONLINE. THANK YOU FOR USING MSN MUSIC**

MS Head of Mobile: "Ah damn it all."
MS Worker: "So I'm guessing we're dropping the idea after all?"
MS Head of Mobile: "Nonsense! Call a press conference, I'll just use my cunning wit and charm to sell this idea to the masses. They'll love it!"
MS Worker: "*sigh* Yes, Sir."

Simple advice for Microsoft

[MikeRT]

Cut the bullshit with things like DRM. Your customers want speed and reliability from your products. Rip the DRM out of Windows Vista and Windows 7 completely. Focus all of your efforts on fixing the hardware compatibility issues and performance. You are in potentially very dangerous waters now with Apple's new Snow Leopard release coming in the near future, a release that is almost entirely focused on longterm performance enhancements.

Hollywood wants you to piss off your customers. Hollywood doesn't give a shit about your future. Stop listening to Hollywood, and start aggressively giving your customers want they want from a desktop OS.

Re:Simple advice for Microsoft

[mcgrew]

Microsoft's answer: "YOU are not our customer. The company that manufactured your computer and installed Windows on it is our customer. Businesses who buy upgrades from us are our customers, and they not only don't care if there's DRM, they prefer it because it keeps them out of trouble. If you bought Windows from Circuit City, you are Circuit City's customer, not ours.

"Why wuold we give two shits about you? You're not a customer, you're only a tool of our REAL customers."

Halo makes me cry

[ericrost]

It was originally a PC title that had been under development for 3+ years (I was following a lot of articles about it) that was meant to be something close to planetside in scope. It was going to be the Ultimate pc multiplayer shooter and you can see the potential with the vehicle combat and really well balanced weapons. Then it got stuck on a console forever when bungee ran out of money and MS swooped in seeing the potential of the franchise.

Re:Halo makes me cry

[Chris Mattern]

It was originally a PC title that had been under development for 3+ years

PC *and Mac* title. Bungie was known for their excellent Mac support...before. PCs eventually got Halo.

Re:Halo makes me cry

[Saffaya]

Actually, Halo was bound for the Mac and not the PC, as Bungie was a Mac game maker.
(long time Bungie fans correct me if I'm wrong)

Re:Halo makes me cry

[Anonymous Coward]

It was actually originally a Mac title.

Re:Halo makes me cry

[Anonymous Coward]

Correction, it was originally a flagship MAC title (which would also be released on PC) made by the premier Macintosh gaming developer, Bungie. They were pushing it as a demonstration of the graphics and processing power of the Macintosh in a realtime rendered demo at Macworld 99. It was meant to be (and still sorta is) a spiritual successor to the popular Marathon series which was a great example of early Mac gaming and how every once in a while, the Mac gaming scene didn't suck. I was still kinda a Mac guy (college's inherent strain on $$ changed that) when MS, out of nowhere bought Bungie and forced them to re-make Halo from the ground up for their new "XBox" console. It was a devastating day for us Mac gamers, but honestly, the Halo franchise would not have gotten nearly as far as it did without the XBox.

Re:Halo makes me cry

[Anonymous Coward]

You're kidding, right? Halo was originally previewed at Macworld in 1999, a full year before Microsoft acquired Bungee. Considering the sorry state of gaming on Macs, it makes the story even more tragic.

Re:Halo makes me cry

[Anonymous Coward]

bungee ran out of money

Had Microsoft not "swooped in" would you have had the chance to play the game? Or it's two sequels?

Re:Halo makes me cry

[jonaskoelker]

PC *and Mac* title.

It's all the same CPU arch anyways, so if you're on a mac you just recompile... right?

[I keed, I keed]

Re:Halo makes me cry

[Anonymous Coward]

You're correct, halo was premiered at macworld or something a number of years ago.

Re:Halo makes me cry

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Halo was bound for the Mac and not the PC, as Bungie was a Mac game maker.
(long time Bungie fans correct me if I'm wrong)

Well, you could spend 20 seconds looking it up...

On July 21, 1999, during the Macworld Conference & Expo, Steve Jobs announced that Halo would be released for Mac OS and Windows simultaneously.

Bungie Studios later stated an even earlier development build of the game centered on real-time strategy and was "basically Myth in a sci-fi universe".

Re:Clueless - Including Ballmer

[SpaceLifeForm]

Here are some of Ballmer's comments from a conference call with analysts:

        * "We think we have taken the right degree of action in terms of reducing the cost base."
        * "We are taking out somewhere between 5 percent and 15 percent of the cost line... which we think, in this environment relative to the reset in the economy, is probably the right level."
        * "Our model is not for a quick rebound (in PC sales)."
        * "If the economy stays down and then builds slowly, we are probably at about the expense base... You can't tell. The economy could also get a whole lot worse."

They also said they are no longer going to provide earnings/profit estimates.

In other words, they have no clue how bad they are going down.

This is a good thing.

Congratulations

[MattW]

I'd like to congratulate Microsoft on finding yet another way to strangle the life out of any goodwill remaining in its brand.

No surprise,

[houtianze]

Microsoft is always being innovative and a great visionary, especially after Bill G. retired.

What about leveraging that monopoly?

[Schuthrax]

Surely Microsoft must have some idea to include a music/media portal in Windows and/or media player so that users don't have to think about running something "scary" like iTunes or a browser in order to buy music.

sweet

[token_username]

So you're basically paying full price to rent a digital song from MS. The term is determined by how long MS wants to stick with a given technology and the bonus is that the music you're renting isn't even CD quality. I believe I've already gotten screwed over by MS DRM on some of my older music. never again.

Here's hoping...

[Xenographic]

> They will have to suffer a near-death experience before they will actually pay attention to what the user wants and what the market is delivering.

Here's to hoping they never suffer a near-death experience.

Actively trying to fail?

[1_brown_mouse]

I don't recall a company being as completely tone deaf to their target market.

I am sure the lables/RIAA/IFPA are happy but no one is going to buy what they are selling.

Re:Clueless - Including Ballmer

[Anonymous Coward]

in this environment relative to the reset in the economy

Ballmer must view the economy in the same way he does his operating systems - if it's broke, just reset it.

Subtext

[Ralph Spoilsport]

The company's Head of Mobile UK spoke to PC Pro about the launch, but his answers are almost as baffling as the service itself. Best quote: Q: "If I buy these songs on your service â" and they're locked to my phone â" what happens when I upgrade my phone in six months' time?" A: "Well, I think you know the answer to that."

Or, in other words:

Q: "If I buy these songs on your service â" and they're locked to my phone â" what happens when I upgrade my phone in six months' time?"

A: "Obviously, you're fucked. Yes, I think it's about as stupid as it gets, but I don't make the rules, I just work here."

RS

Plays for Sure?

[argent]

You sure got played!

Re:Plays for Sure?

[El_Oscuro]

How about "Played for sure"?

It's sad to think of those affected

[psnyder]

I have very intelligent friends, usually over 30, that just have no idea about computers, and frankly don't care. It's as interesting to them as how their toaster works. They come to me with their computer issues and the phrase I hear often is, "I hate this. Technology is supposed to make life easier."

They're frustrated and rightfully so. Some will undoubtedly buy into crap like this, and not understand why they can't have their music anymore. They'll get frustrated, angry, or cry, and try silly things to put the music on their computer or new phones. Another phrase I hear often: "I was up half the night trying to get this to work."

The people who sell things like this are putting out a product they know to be inferior. They rationalize it with ideas like, "people have a choice" and "people may actually prefer this layout and never realize the drawbacks."

But in the end, my friends would have a bought a better product for less if this crap hadn't been around. And when they can't do what they thought they should be able to do, they don't know why, and they get very upset. Crap like this ruins the days of many, many people. It's avoidable and it's the fault of people who put plans like this into action.

They're screwing people over to make a buck, plain and simple.

Re:It's sad to think of those affected

[je ne sais quoi]

Another phrase I hear often: "I was up half the night trying to get this to work."

Maybe they should take more interest in their computers than their toaster. When was the last time someone stayed up all night trying to get their toaster to work?* If they're so smart maybe they should wake up and take the time to learn a little more about what they're buying.

After dealing with these situations time and time again I resolved that I will gladly help my friends and family in any computer problem in any way shape or form just so long as the operating system has nothing to do with Microsoft. If it's Windows, they're on their own. In practice, I do still help them if there is no one else who can help, but I make sure I tell them clearly that they should invest in an Apple next time if they want my continued help, or if they have some computer knowledge but don't know all the ins and outs, I give them an Ubuntu DVD and a coupon for a lifetime of free linux support.

*Attempted linux installations excepted.

Re:It's sad to think of those affected

[Phu5ion]

"people may actually prefer this layout and never realize the drawbacks."

Another way of saying this is; "we hope our users won't realize we are fucking them in the ass."

Re:It's sad to think of those affected

[mcgrew]

They come to me with their computer issues and the phrase I hear often is, "I hate this. Technology is supposed to make life easier."

It's been true since the advent of computers that computers make hard things easy, and easy things hard.

Re:It's sad to think of those affected

[Anonymous Coward]

"They're screwing people over to make a buck, plain and simple."

Were you born yesterday?
What amuses me the most about the general slashdotter type person is how mind-bogglingly naive they are. It's no coincidence that IT are some of the worst paid and most abused professionals.

Re:It's sad to think of those affected

[Anonymous Coward]

Piratebay.org = payback

They find p2p and never buy a song again. Wooo hooo way to go....

Re:It's sad to think of those affected

[Anonymous Coward]

I have very intelligent friends ... the phrase I hear often is ... Technology is supposed to make life easier. ... Another phrase I hear often: "I was up half the night trying to get this to work." ... The people who sell things like this are putting out a product they know to be inferior. They rationalize it with ideas like, "people have a choice" and "people may actually prefer this layout and never realize the drawbacks." ... Crap like this ruins the days of many, many people. It's avoidable and it's the fault of people who put plans like this into action.

Are your friends running linux? :-)

Re:It's sad to think of those affected

[ACMENEWSLLC]

With free video hosting sites such as YouTube and free technical sites such as experts-exchange.com, what we need is a video hosting site which has free How do I... videos.

Show me videos on how to download MP3's as ring tones to my Samsung t809. It is possible, but they make it very hard since they want you to buy their downloadable ring tones.

Here is a need, now someone needs to make a site and earn a buck off filling the need.

Re:It's sad to think of those affected

[psnyder]

If they're so smart maybe they should wake up and take the time to learn a little more about what they're buying.

I do not want to live in a society where it's deemed okay to scam someone because they don't have sufficient background knowledge.

Nor do I want to live in a society where the people who were scammed are blamed because they didn't learn about the scam before it happened. However, they should be accountable if the subject is common knowledge and they know what they're getting into. What DRM truly does is not common knowledge, especially among people over 30.

Re:It's sad to think of those affected

[Anonymous Coward]

Intelligent people would research and learn about products before they buy them.

As with any product, if you don't do any research to make sure what you buy works with what you have or will get in the future, you deserve what you get.

You don't need to be an expert to find out and understand these things.

Microsoft are not screwing people over. Their store is not the only one around and isn't even the dominant one, people can shop elsewhere.

You shouldn't have any sympathy for people who are just lazy.

This isn't flamebait, it's just the truth.

Re:It's sad to think of those affected

[lazyforker]

We must have the same group of friends. But seriously - this is your opportunity to educate them a little. You can explain a little about DRM, vendor lock-in, proprietary/closed vs standards-based/open etc. Their eyes might roll up and they might possibly collapse and die from boredom, but these people certainly have the intellectual capacity to understand the larger points and if they're your friends it's nice to help them. At least encourage them to talk to all their other tech friends *before* they invest heavily in a specific technology.

Re:It's sad to think of those affected

[Anonymous Coward]

The people who sell things like this are putting out a product they know to be inferior.

Its not they know its inferior but they make it inferior on purpose.

Re:It's sad to think of those affected

[je ne sais quoi]

That's a good point and I think you're right, in some of the more reasonable states there's a "fitness of purpose" or "merchantability" lemon rule for cars. Also, we can return a bad or just badly made toaster to the store if we want to. Why don't we have such things as an implied merchantability or a right of return for software? The EULA comes to mind as one obstacle, since often they say that there is no suitability or fitness of purpose when it comes to software. Meh... maybe what we need is some government oversight into computing practices that would ban EULAs, but this would require a congress and administration that stops viewing the protection of corporate profits as its primary goal and protection of the consumers as secondary. Where's Ralph Nader when you need him?

Re:It's sad to think of those affected

[jonaskoelker]

When was the last time someone stayed up all night trying to get their toaster to work?* [...] *Attempted linux installations excepted.

Why no one care 'bout BSD? :'-(

Re:It's sad to think of those affected

[mbooth9517]

That is how the free market works. If they can't be bothered to find out the advantages and disadvantages of one company's offering over another then they only have themselves to blame. The points are not difficult to understand: - You can only play the song on this one device, it won't transfer to another device - It costs more than other services They are not intelligent people if they don't realise you ought to shop around for services or products in order to get good value for money.

Re:It's sad to think of those affected

[Anonymous Coward]

I do not want to live in a society where...

Don't let the door hit you in the brain on the way out.

yawn

[swordfishBob]

Maybe you'll be sick of those songs by then, and just get new ones for your new phone..

Maybe people will come to think that replacing your phone every 18 months is ridiculous..

Maybe I don't care as I still buy music on CDs, ie unencrypted on physical media.. for the small qty of music I could be bothered obtaining.

Re:yawn

[mcgrew]

Maybe you'll be sick of those songs by then, and just get new ones for your new phone

In other words, "this is for people with more dollars than sense."

Maybe people will come to think that replacing your phone every 18 months is ridiculous.

I think replacing my phone every 18 months is rediculous, but somehow I've never had a phone any longer than that. I wind up changing carriers, or the carrier gets bought out, or I answer it when I'm drunk and it winds up falling in the toilet.

Maybe I don't care as I still buy music on CDs, ie unencrypted on physical media

As anyone with a clue does. CDs are cheaper (especially if you stay away from RIAA fare), you get liner notes, cover art, lyrics, etc, and an automatic backup to your MP3s (the CD itself) plus you can back the CD up to a blank.

No way would I pay for a music download. I guess it's a good thing that all the new bands I listen to have their tracks available for FREE download from their web sites.

Re:yawn

[despisethesun]

I like buying CDs for most of the reasons you listed, but honestly at this point I'm just tired of having them around. My CD collection is fucking massive and it just sits in boxes in my apartment taking up space since everything has been ripped for my convenience. I would like it if some of these music sites would start selling FLAC files, CD quality without all the bullshit.

That bloody sig of yours....

[berend botje]

I just fell for your sig, again! :-)

And, Apple is acting the terrorists..

[Anonymous Coward]

... and keeps the poor victims hostage, just to add insult to injury. No less evil than MS, just better marketing team.

640k should be enough for anyone

[tekrat]

Dude;

This is MICROSOFT.

Don't mess with emusic!

[msimm]

They've been supplying those of us who care with DRM-free music since 2003 managing to quietly become the #2 digital music retailer and still offer better prices then their competitors (excluding Amazon funded Amie Street on newish releases).

And yes, I'm afraid I am a fan boi.

Re:Don't mess with emusic!

[chaim79]

I did use them a lot for a while, but I started running out of interesting music and I found out that they don't have rollover (which really sucks getting that last one or two tracks for the month). Also when they upped the price I decided it was enough, while there are some great bands out there, eMusic also has a Ton of crap as well... just cuz a band is an Indie band doesn't make it a good band, or even a decent band...

After dropping eMusic I went back to CD purchases (used) and a couple albums from iTunes (9.99 per album much nicer then even WalMart's $13 and $15 for most CD's). Mostly it's been single tracks from iTunes, and it'll probably stay that way for most of my music purchases.

Re:Don't mess with emusic!

[aristotle-dude]

The idea was great. Unfortunately, their selection was/is crap and it is just easier for me to buy from iTMS directly instead of having add files manually to my library after downloading them from emusic.

Re:Don't mess with emusic!

[dubgee]

I second that. I've been with them for just over a year and I can't get enough of it.

Re:Don't mess with emusic!

[NigelTheFrog]

it is just easier for me to buy from iTMS directly instead of having add files manually to my library after downloading them from emusic.

Actually, the most recent eMusic download manager (at least for OS X) automatically imports downloads into iTunes, artwork and all. I think it works with Media Player too, but I've never had opportunity/desire to find out.

And eMusic has been around long before 2003. I've been a subscriber since March 2000.

Re:Don't mess with emusic!

[Anonymous Coward]

The no roll-over's a drag. I signed up after /. article years ago and they've been good enough to grandfather in old accounts so that they keep some of the older features (no roll-overs being a big one).

For the interesting music problem I've found that it's more an issue with actually finding the music. If you use last.fm, you can try my search app which calls into their api to pull recommendations. At least with the recs you can get a better picture of what they carry and how well it suites you.

Re:Don't mess with emusic!

[msimm]

Fecking /. AC bug.

Well

[KeX3]

I don't believe for a second that this is actually something that has been created for a monetary gain. Microsoft may be an big, giant, evil company hell-bent on monopoly (if that's your view), but they're just not this retarded. Seriously.

There is some reason for this. Some patent, some future-proofing "prior art" claim, something going on behind the scenes. They're just not this f-ing retarded.

Eventually something will come up, and people will go "oh THAT was the reason". It's what I would expect from MS. And face it, besides monkey-boy, they usually don't put the complete ass-tards up front to face the public.

Any large company does this

[Weaselmancer]

Well, you are making the assumption that this arrogance does not exist in the higher ranks. I personally feel that Microsoft is occupied by too many people out of touch with reality.

I just had a two day meeting with a client who represents a large medical company.

A two day meeting to tell me how much of a hurry he's in.

Large companies seem to infect people with this sort of brain rot.

Clue to Mods:

[m.ducharme]

Anecdote != flamebait

There...fixed it for ya

[thewils]

If I buy these songs on your service - and they're locked to my phone - what happens when I upgrade my phone in six months' time?

"Well, I think you know the answer to that."

Doesn't he mean: "Fuck 'em."?

They are just plain stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

How in the world can they think they can sell something for more than it's worth? It's worth what people will pay and that is $.99 per song. Just like their "play for sure" crap this is just wasting money.

Re:They are just plain stupid

[FunkyRider]

They already did it: Windows

"Loyal to microsoft" and "MSN users"...

[jopsen]

There's a whole bunch of people who are very loyal to MSN on the web and there's now almost a million users of MSN Mobile every month, within the space of 12 months of it being launched.

Only aimed at stupid people, who are loyal to msn :)
Seriously, the only reason to launch this service is that msn is default start page in IE, and there are so many computer illiterate users who thinks msn is the internet, because that's where their browser starts...
This is just microsoft offering shitty services to users who are loyal to microsoft... :)

No! MS is working FOR US!

[Ecuador]

You missed the most obvious explanation!
MS went to the labels and told them, hey, we want to sell mp3's to users. The labels responded sure, but you have to use DRM since you are so good at it (wink wink nudge nudge), besides we would otherwise have to charge you more (since users would actually be buying content instead of some limited rent). MS says, we don't think the users will like this DRM, but we will give it a try. So, they come up with the most incredibly stupid DRM business plan in history (after the gnomes' attempt to DRM underpants), to prove to the labels, once and for all, that DRM cannot work!!!!
Amazing huh?
I am not being funny here, if you look at the IQ bell curve, you will see that this scenario is more likely than the alternate of finding a guy with a 69 IQ to head an MS department!
Yes, I know they found one to head an entire nation a few years ago, but that does not improve the chances!

Re:No! MS is working FOR US!

[theaveng]

Bush actually had an IQ of 135.

Therefore he's not our dumbest president... merely our second dumbest (after Ulysses S Grant). ;-) Our smartest president was John Q Adams, another son of a former president, and our second smartest president was Thomas Jefferson.

Re:No! MS is working FOR US!

[Anonymous Coward]

The second dumbest has an IQ of 135??? You mean in the Fahrenheit scale? :P

Re:No! MS is working FOR US!

[theaveng]

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bpl/pops/2006/00000027/00000004/art00001;jsessionid=1i07kdv5wgn5p.alexandra?format=print

Summary:
1. John Quincy Adams, IQ 175
2. Thomas Jefferson, 160 average college graduate, 109

Re:No! MS is working FOR US!

[theaveng]

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bpl/pops/2006/00000027/00000004/art00001;jsessionid=1i07kdv5wgn5p.alexandra?format=print

Summary:
1. John Quincy Adams, IQ 175
2. Thomas Jefferson, 160 --- my favorite
3. John F. Kennedy, 159.8
4. Bill Clinton, 159
5. Jimmy Carter, 156.8
6. Woodrow Wilson, 155.2
7. Theodore Roosevelt, 153
8. Chester A. Arthur, 152.3
9. Abraham Lincoln, 150 ---- I thought he'd rank higher, but he is just a "dumb" Republican after all (just joking)

And here's the bottom of the barrel:

Harry S. Truman, 140
George W. Bush, 138.5
Ulysses S. Grant, 130
average college graduate, 109

Re:No! MS is working FOR US!

[nyctopterus]

You know, all of those scores look suspiciously high, even for a heavily biased sample. And since they were not directly tested I call horseshit on that article.

Unfortaunte

[Anonymous Coward]

It's unfortunate that one, sad, sad, branch of a huge company is heading in the wrong direction. We can just hope that they will drop this awful service and focus on more important things.

If you look, Microsoft is REALLY moving in the right direction in most places. They're fixing many of the issues with Vista in Windows 7. Office 2007 introduced a UI that actually exposes a lot of the advanced features of a word processor that most people may not have seen otherwise.

They are contributing to open source projects, both existing and new. Win7 now has support for Open Document Format. Silverlight works on many platforms, etc.

Too bad we have to see this one awful product group spoil the whole company's image.

Amazing!

[codefool]

Yet another Microsoft product that is meticulously planned, engineered, and executed such that no one will want to pay for it. Except Mr. Bill, that is.

MS: "Here's our version of an established service, but ours has more restrictions and costs more!"
Mr. Bill: "Sign me up!"
Everyone else: "Pound sand!"

Re:Clueless - Including Ballmer

[Chabil Ha']

This is a good thing.

Don't be too hasty in seeing M$' head severed. When evil is destroyed, there is always something to fill its void, and despite your best wishes, I fell pretty safe in saying that it likely wouldn't be Linux.

They've got half the money in history...

[harlequinade]

..and they still couldn't find their own butt with
both hands and a map. Apple and the Ubuntu posse must love stories like this?!

The real fun will be later

[ukoda]

It will be popular with that significant group of consumers who just buy things without think about the future. Microsoft has always done well out of those customers. Where it will get interesting is when those customers are asked to repurchase all their music because they have a new phone. The response in different countries will be interesting and expensive for Microsoft. In the USA I guess there will be a class action lawsuit that will take years to resolve. Here in New Zealand consumer law will force them to fix the problem promptly or face large fines and I suspect the EU will be the same but take longer and fine them even after they have fixed the problem.

Familiar

[Anonymous Coward]

With the likes of iTunes and Amazon offering DRM-free music that you can play on any device, why would anyone choose the MSN Mobile service?

There may well be people who just want to listen to the track on their mobile alone.

I know I like to pay extra to buy the most restrictive product I can.

"Well, I think you know the answer to that."

[bestalexguy]

Steve: "So, bestalexguy, what happens when you upgrade your PC in six months' time? will you buy my new cool OS?"
bestalexguy: "Well, I think you know the answer to that."

Re:Clueless For a huge company that has corrupted

[davidsyes]

South Korea with windoze and especially active-hex (i know at least one Korean who related/recounted to me that may Korean passionately HATE ms' active x because it causes grief to many, and, iirc, grief to many Mac users), ms seems to be incredibly blindly stupid. As of (or at least around January 2007), Koreans in the south could for $5 get unlimited wireless access to any song in a catalog.

See:

http://interaliainc.blogspot.com/2007_01_01_archive.html

Go to the sectin "Want an iPhone"

"IN the long view, Mr. Goldberg said he believes that today's copy-protection battles will prove short-lived. Eventually, perhaps in 5 or 10 years, he predicts, all portable players will have wireless broadband capability and will provide direct access, anytime, anywhere, to every song ever released for a low monthly subscription fee.

It's a prediction that has a high probability of realization because such a system is already found in South Korea, where three million subscribers enjoy direct, wireless access to a virtually limitless music catalog for only $5 a month. He noted, however, that music companies in South Korea did not agree to such a radically different business model until sales of physical CDs had collapsed.

Pointing to South Korea, where copy protection has disappeared, Mr. Goldberg invoked the pithy aphorism attributed to the author William Gibson: "The future is here; it's just not widely distributed yet." "

So, i'm gonna as a possibly inflammatory question: "Really, just what IS IT with ms? How mind-bogglingly STUPID can a collective of supposedly intelligent people be?"

Sounds like a great business plan...

[dov_0]

1. Offer MP3 downloads
2. Charge lots of money
3. Use DRM so people have to download (and pay for) the same tracks again for a new device (even though competitors won't do this)
4. ?...
5. PROFIT!

Re:DRM is not a racial slur...

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol, why did this get marked troll? Is it because of the interspecies erotica? I guess you guys have never worked for MS...

Wont Play...

[A12m0v]

For Sure!

Microsoft and DRM Auth servers

[BloodyIron]

So, last year they took down a buttload of DRM Auth servers because it wasn't sufficiently profitable; now they want to use DRM again, and they expect anyone who knows anything to actually want to buy their services again?

I frown at MS stock holders, you're the ones saying that this kind of activity is acceptable.

Another bonehead move

[wshwe]

This is just another bonehead move by MS. No wonder Apple creamed them in digital music.

WTF

[SlightOverdose]

Microsoft really just don't get it.

They cannot even begin to hope to compete with Apple and Amazon with such a lousy product.

This doesn't surprise me a bit!

[Anonymous Coward]

It is in M$'s best interest to use corporate American malware (DRM) to shackle you to their products by taking your music hostage. Is it morally wrong? you bet! That does not matter though. As long as average Joe doesn't know about it, its okay!

What's even sadder is that people try to crack the corporate American malware, instead of refusing it in the first place.

Missing the big 4...

[msimm]

So naturally if you're uncomfortable outside them you'll be happier at iTMS. Their catalogs somewhere around 4 millions songs deep, I wrote a program to take advantage of the last.fm api I use to help myself find things when I'm feeling lazy.

And In Other Bews ..

[hduff]

Politicians bring back graft.

Hollywood brings back sex.

Video games bring back violence.

Priests bring back little boys.

Or if your memory stick takes a dump?

[SL Baur]

Best quote: Q: 'If I buy these songs on your service â" and they're locked to my phone â" what happens when I upgrade my phone in six months' time?' A: 'Well, I think you know the answer to that.'"

I had a phone crash that apparently only affected my memory stick. I lost stuff a lot more valuable than the stupid DRM'ed ring tones/music on it, but still. It's not the first time it's happened to me and ... Nevermore ...

April 1st already?

[griffjon]

This is the best piece of humor I've read all year. Given, that's only 22 days so far, but still. This guy should be hired as spokesman for all crap technology!

Windows 7's

[MrKaos]

best feature.

Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

I have been a corporate middle manager for about 10 years now (excuse me while I weep quietly into my latte) and I am fairly fluent in corporate double-speak. Would you like me to translate this back into English?

Yes, I knew you would.

Q. Why has Microsoft gone back to DRM when the vast majority of music services have ditched it?

A. We're buying the music from someone else, and they say we have to. This project isn't important enough to Microsoft to strong-arm them. Not until it's shown a profit.

Q. With the likes of iTunes and Amazon offering DRM-free music that you can play on any device, why would anyone choose the MSN Mobile service?

A. Our target market is the one million a month users of MSN who are not tech-savvy, don't pay attention to media reports that include acronyms, and will click on the 'buy music now!' button to save themselves the effort of finding a better service.

I'd like to offer a fuller service but this is not important enough to Microsoft to give me the budget to do so. Not until it's shown a profit.

Q. What is your message to consumers - why should I come to you instead of Amazon or iTunes? What do you offer that none of your competitors do?

A. Our target market is the one million a month users of MSN who are not tech-savvy, don't pay attention to media reports that include acronyms, and will click on the 'buy music now!' button to save themselves the effort of finding a better service.

Q. The fee for downloading tracks - £1.50 - is relatively high compared to 79p on iTunes and less than that on certain Amazon tracks. Why is that?

A. Our target market is the one million a month users of MSN who are not tech-savvy, don't pay attention to media reports that include acronyms, and will click on the 'buy music now!' button to save themselves the effort of finding a better service.

Q. If I buy these songs on your service - and they're locked to my phone - what happens when I upgrade my phone in six months' time?

You will lose them. I know enough to know that if I say that directly, I will be quoted extensively in the press and fired along with those other 5,000 guys.

Q. Can you really expect people to buy music that's locked to a device they upgrade every 12 to 18 months?

A. I used to run a small department that nobody cared about. This is my first big break. I'm trying not to screw up too badly in the hope I get a better project next year. Please give me a break and don't ask me questions that involve statistics about churn rates.

Q. Thank you

A. I'll get my coat.

Music the way it wants to be.

[kabloom]

They were always advertising the Zune saying "Music the way it wants to be"... note their complete lack of consumer centricisim. They weren't advertising "Music the way you want it to be".

What makes you think the are grads?

[crovira]

I agree with everything but, if any of them are recent college grads, they probably have more sense that to utter stuff that clueless.

I'm Sorry...

[His Shadow]

In what Universe is this considered to be a surprise move? It's Microsoft for Odin's sake. You honestly believe they've learned lessons from the the marketplace that weren't extracted at the barrel of their monopoly cannon?

This wasy to

[n6kuy]

.. the Amazing Egress!

Microsoft Sepukku beta released

[Anonymous Coward]

News just in:
Microsoft has announced a new scheme called Microsoft Sepukku wherein deep search, navigation, packet inspection, quarantine and permanent deletion are promoted as security procedures.

Microsoft has also announced that using the latest StoneHenge project contributions they intend to take their DeepBlackMagic(TM) technology even further.

In short, the company spokesperson said that Microsoft Sepukku project deals with opening the full source code of the system, slowly and in a 360 degree transparent fashion.

Coincidentally, Microsoft has started announcing layoffs too.

occams razor

[wintermute000]

You and others who have posed this line of thinking may be right...

But I would tend to side with occam's razor: that guy really is an idiot, and its another one of MS's idiotic ideas, just like any large corporation (no intention to start pro/anti MS flamewar here, just pointing out the obvious)

Well, I've heard of it...

[Anonymous Coward]

> Has Microsoft secretly stumbled onto some previously unknown technique for making money off of doomed products that none of us have heard of?

That depends on whether any of us have heard of "abuse of a monopoly position" or not, doesn't it?

Untrue

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not true. It now works in the UK too.

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[account_deleted]

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[account_deleted]

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MSN?

[Anonymous Coward]

Show of hands of anyone who has opened MSN.com outside of a fresh install of windows prior to installing firefox, or while working on your granny's computer?

News to me...

[Anonymous Coward]

Had no idea that Halo was supposed to be a massive FPS. Sounds brilliant. Of course Bungie was notorious for making good PC games. Too bad they ran out of money. We could have had a Blizzard like company and a decent Planetside replacement. Think WOW success in mass FPS market which is so massively ignored. MMMmmm.

Good old Micro$oft (I know this bugs someone)

[Anonymous Coward]

Some reader / poster here constantly harps on people for using the slur "Micro$oft". Well, buddy, EAT IT. Eat your words now. Micro$oft knows that hey, not everyone keeps up with digital media news right? So they decided it would be profitable to continue defrauding the uninformed. This is such an evil and backward move by Micro$oft, I think I'll pirate Windows 7 instead of buying it, if I ever decide to upgrade from my pirated copy of XP corporate.

If there were anyone else...

[Bert64]

If this was any other company, a product like this, overpriced and massively inferior to the competition would be completely ignored...
Because it's MS they're likely to market it heavily and get people using it despite it's inferiority...

Personally i wouldn't touch this service with a barge pole...
More expensive than competitors...
Restrictive DRM which the competitors don't have...
From a vendor who cannot be trusted (they left customers of their previous music service up shit creek)...

why does this remind me

[Joe the Lesser]

Of Kiff and Zap Branigan...