Sometimes it hurts though, recently we've had a wave of customers with popup and spyware issues. On every job I've been ad-awareing the system to death and setting up firebird for them to test, with the understanding they are testing it for us. It's actually gone fairly well, none of them really like IE anymore after using firebird for a week (I even remove the IE shortcuts from the desktop and quicklaunch and replace them with firebird shortcuts that use the ie icon). Their first sight however is firebird loading slow for the first time.
As I said in my previous post, I experienced this under both window and linux. And on different machines for that matter.
P.S. On windows you can get most of that memory back. Simply take the office startup out with msconfig or regedit... that will give you back up to 30% of your total system resources on boot.
Actually in my experience with windows EVERYTHING is paged. Even when you've booted with all startup applications removed swap is in use for the OS! It's really pretty sick. The more memory you have, the more swap the system uses.
It makes me sick that I have to spend my days fixing windows crap (we sell and support linux as well... but alas, although we have lots and lots of linux out there, I rarely have to touch a linux machine, except patching which I can do from our office.).
Nonetheless this particular problem with the full blown mozilla occurs on multiple systems and occurs on linux as well as windows. Some day I'll track it down, there must be memory leak or some such.
Actually you can do the same with the url bar in firebird and there are extensions which give you the ability to run the extra bar off. You did check out the extensions right... there is everything from simple gui user agent setting changes to a tetris game for firebird.
I was under the impression that the difference was that firebird was actually intended to be used as a web browser and mozilla is not supposed to actually be used to browse the web... it's just supposed to be the core technology which is to be used in web browsers?
actually IE loads faster, Firebird browses faster. We've actually compared them on non-cashed and cached pages. Firebird really crushes IE on cached page loading. Really odd since IE has lower level IP hooks and is integrated at a lower level of the system to boost it's performance.
We didn't look at what webservers the pages we tested were running on though. There aren't too many IIS servers out there compared with *nix and I know IE and IIS break http standards to implement speed hacks on page loading in IE and slow it down in other browsers.
The difference was remarkable, even a page as clean as google actually chopped a second or so off when rendered in firebird.
Personally I find pages load faster in Firebird than Mozilla OR IE, I can actually see the difference on something as simple as the google front page.
The biggest difference for me though is that Mozilla at some random time interval... usually after a window had been open a couple hours although sometimes sooner, would seem to bog the system severely on window or linux... even if you killed of Moz and it's processes things would be bogged severly until the next reboot.
If I used konqueror this didn't happen at all so I knew it was Moz. Until I found firebird there wasn't really any viable browser for me. For some reason this doesn't occur with firebird even though it seems to mostly be a trimmed up Moz, something they don't include must be the source of the problem.
$150mil is nothing to microsoft, it's not nothing to Apple though, or rather wasn't, it's what saved them from bankruptcy long enough to get the imac to market.
"Of course, they could call Linux a competitor also. That's a weaker claim in that Linux corporations aren't even as large as Apple, but stronger in that Apple doesn't actually compete in the OS market space (it's really a hardware company)."
Depending on which firms numbers you believe, linux has either almost the same, or more desktop market share than apple now... not to mention linux and unix in general own every other aspect of the computer market already... I'd say microsoft is DEFINATELY more concerned with the growing linux OS (which is gaining market share whhile at the MS loses and apple stays the same... hmm) than an old hat with a few old timer loyal fans that it beat a long long time ago and has chosen to let continue to the degree it does because of Bill's personal fondness.
your right, talk about chinese black market prices here!!!! Give me a break, if you can purchase a SCO license for a mere $5k don't you think they should be going for something more like $50k for linux?
Somehow I doubt microsoft will kill apple off... one apple is about the only semblence to a claim they aren't a monopoly that microsoft has got. Two, microsoft owns a huge chunk of apple, and billg owns another large chunk.
" If the person is a web designer or a programmer and needs to test to see how the site renders or the program compiles/runs outside of the Mac environment?"
Wouldn't a more obvious solution be to simply design it outside the mac environment to begin with?
"I think it would be really nice to be able to develop and test web sites on a lone laptop or system... mostly on the go."
you do know that a mac really doesn't have any sort of edge on a pc in the web design department right? The graphics one works with in the web world can be rendered on a pentium 75! Anything that is too big for a 486 has no business being on the web. Granted, with extensions you can make view source open in a real text editor if you use firebird on your mac... but that is just catching up, not winning the race.
"Then you have companies that require software that will only run on PCs... by being able to run the software within a window rather than setting aside space for another monitor/keyboard/mouse and PC unit... that can be quite helpful if desk space limited."
Or again, you can simply get rid of the macs and run just the pc's. It's not like you'll find anything that runs on a mac that can't be easily replaced on a pc and 99% of the time at lower cost.
Wine isn't pretending to be the win32 api, it's a 100% native implementation of the api!
If microsoft ported the win32 gui and api to linux, would you call that implementation of the api an emulator? NO it's the win32 api... Does it then automatically become "emulated" is someone else writes the code besides microsoft. I hope not because microsoft doesn't really do much of anything in terms of programming... almost all their stuff is written by 3rd parties in "joint" projects that microsoft bails out of.
The win32 api is a set of rules and commands an application interfaces with, you can't emulate it, it's impossible to emulate an api... you can only implement an api or interface with it. Wine isn't another api that is compatible with the win32 api, wine is an implementation of the win32 api on the linux operating system.
no wine IS an api implementation. If I write an sql database system, I'm not emulating sql, I'm implementing it.
In the same way, if I write a win32 api system, I'm not emulating the win32 api, I'm implementing it.
Wine in no way pretends to be windows to get windows applications to work, it merely implements the same api those programs use on windows so that when they call X function, X function exists in a 100% non-emulated native implementation.
I didn't put anyone in iraq. The discussion wasn't about the merit's of war. It was about the economy. Whether or neither your feelings on how just the war was nor my own are really relevant.
Please stay on topic. War strengthens the economy, that is fact. The morals of war are irrelevant. I'm not saying Bush is a good guy, I'm not saying the war was right or just or moral. I'm saying war is good for the bottom line, since when has anything but the bottom line mattered to the people of this capitalist country anyway?
BTW nobody died in iraq (on our side) until the war was already over... since the "war" (it was really a skirmish) ended 160 have died according to recent CNN reports.
"On the other hand, computers could handle dance music just fine..."
AFAIK pretty much ALL dance music is already computer generated nowdays;)
But if you've listened to ANY song you've enjoyed since the early 80's on a cd your listening to computer generated music. It was less sophisticated and less "computer" as we know it today but anything recorded in a studio in the 50's on up has been "enhanced". The moment they apply a single effect you are no longer listening to music the artist created but rather listening to a computer rendering of that music.
The reason you find CGM less interesting and think it has no soul or feeling is because 90% of the time you hear it you think you are listening to musicians with instruments. The only time you hear CGM and know it is when they are making the fact known or are going for a "techno" feel.
That's a sad thought that they might port the backend but not the clients. I suspect they will though when linux is their primary tool of choice. They probably would have made netware clients if netware had ANY desktop market. Linux is nowhere near windows in desktop market share but it's certainly up there among any other systems used for the desktop. It arguably (depending on whose numbers you go by) has already surpassed MacOS in the desktop...
Yes but they Specifically announced they were porting EVERYTHING from netware to linux and dropping netware... then quickly recanting the dropping netware portion the next day after recieving calls from 10,000 netware fanatics. But if you carefully read their statement they actually use politician speak to say the exact same thing they did in the first statement! They don't say anything about producing more versions of netware, they say they will continue supporting it!
This is offtopic, please mod it as such.. skipping my karma bonus here.
gnu/linux, this is bullshit, wtf is stallman thinking! The operating system is the kernel, everything else in the system is an application running on top of that kernel. Yes you can port applications to different operating systems Congrats for figuring this out!
The entire "certain apps are part of the OS" crap is something microsoft made up. Are you actually supporting this BS just to get kudos for the work someone else did? Jesus christ there are acknowledgements to gnu all over the damn place, often right in the output of the apps in question, there are is absolutely NO excuse for having the gall to name LINUS' and contributors OS after YOU and contributors APPLICATIONS. This is ridiculous. The GNU tools are worthless without an OS to run on... an OS is worthless without apps... but there are plenty of other apps.
Why don't we name it Wine/Linux instead, after all wine is an app that runs on the OS and may well be the thing that makes it viable for the desktop. Or XFREE86/Linux, the gui at least has a better argument than a few generally easily replaceable basic tools (most of which have alternatives which could be taken from BSD without a blink)
To correct this self serving idiocy. When refering to the operating system. Call it LINUX, when refering to it generically to mean the OS plus whatever random apps... call it LINUX. When refering to X distribution... call it X distribution or X distribution LINUX since it's X's distribution of the LINUX OS + some random apps.
Visual C++ is hardly the only C++ development app. They aren't supposed to be pushing software vendors (MS Visual C++ code only works with *gasp* visual c++ and generally windows).
Non microsoft doesn't equate old and obsolete. This mentality sickens me.
you can edit text with emacs? damn it really can do everything! I've had it doing my laundry, washing dishes, painting the house, and thinking for me for quite a while now. So now days emacs can not only dictate the text for me, it can write it to!
Emacs surely must be the closest thing to AI yet.
Seriously, if you want to edit text, use vi, if you want something which can do everything on god's green earth but does all of it poorly, use emacs.
I won't argue the point of whether or not a monopoly is bad... it's been argued to death and society in general agree's it's a bad thing.
Microsoft has a monopoly... hence they lose the right to do anything which shuts out the competition, like using thier vast reserves of cash and desktop monopoly to bribe professors.
Slashdot Mirror
true all of that.
Sometimes it hurts though, recently we've had a wave of customers with popup and spyware issues. On every job I've been ad-awareing the system to death and setting up firebird for them to test, with the understanding they are testing it for us. It's actually gone fairly well, none of them really like IE anymore after using firebird for a week (I even remove the IE shortcuts from the desktop and quicklaunch and replace them with firebird shortcuts that use the ie icon). Their first sight however is firebird loading slow for the first time.
As I said in my previous post, I experienced this under both window and linux. And on different machines for that matter.
P.S. On windows you can get most of that memory back. Simply take the office startup out with msconfig or regedit... that will give you back up to 30% of your total system resources on boot.
Actually in my experience with windows EVERYTHING is paged. Even when you've booted with all startup applications removed swap is in use for the OS! It's really pretty sick. The more memory you have, the more swap the system uses.
It makes me sick that I have to spend my days fixing windows crap (we sell and support linux as well... but alas, although we have lots and lots of linux out there, I rarely have to touch a linux machine, except patching which I can do from our office.).
Nonetheless this particular problem with the full blown mozilla occurs on multiple systems and occurs on linux as well as windows. Some day I'll track it down, there must be memory leak or some such.
Notice to managers, we are sorry but we have to let you go, you have outsourced YOURSELF to india.
Actually you can do the same with the url bar in firebird and there are extensions which give you the ability to run the extra bar off. You did check out the extensions right... there is everything from simple gui user agent setting changes to a tetris game for firebird.
I was under the impression that the difference was that firebird was actually intended to be used as a web browser and mozilla is not supposed to actually be used to browse the web... it's just supposed to be the core technology which is to be used in web browsers?
actually IE loads faster, Firebird browses faster. We've actually compared them on non-cashed and cached pages. Firebird really crushes IE on cached page loading. Really odd since IE has lower level IP hooks and is integrated at a lower level of the system to boost it's performance.
We didn't look at what webservers the pages we tested were running on though. There aren't too many IIS servers out there compared with *nix and I know IE and IIS break http standards to implement speed hacks on page loading in IE and slow it down in other browsers.
The difference was remarkable, even a page as clean as google actually chopped a second or so off when rendered in firebird.
Personally I find pages load faster in Firebird than Mozilla OR IE, I can actually see the difference on something as simple as the google front page.
The biggest difference for me though is that Mozilla at some random time interval... usually after a window had been open a couple hours although sometimes sooner, would seem to bog the system severely on window or linux... even if you killed of Moz and it's processes things would be bogged severly until the next reboot.
If I used konqueror this didn't happen at all so I knew it was Moz. Until I found firebird there wasn't really any viable browser for me. For some reason this doesn't occur with firebird even though it seems to mostly be a trimmed up Moz, something they don't include must be the source of the problem.
$150mil is nothing to microsoft, it's not nothing to Apple though, or rather wasn't, it's what saved them from bankruptcy long enough to get the imac to market.
"Of course, they could call Linux a competitor also. That's a weaker claim in that Linux corporations aren't even as large as Apple, but stronger in that Apple doesn't actually compete in the OS market space (it's really a hardware company)."
Depending on which firms numbers you believe, linux has either almost the same, or more desktop market share than apple now... not to mention linux and unix in general own every other aspect of the computer market already... I'd say microsoft is DEFINATELY more concerned with the growing linux OS (which is gaining market share whhile at the MS loses and apple stays the same... hmm) than an old hat with a few old timer loyal fans that it beat a long long time ago and has chosen to let continue to the degree it does because of Bill's personal fondness.
your right, talk about chinese black market prices here!!!! Give me a break, if you can purchase a SCO license for a mere $5k don't you think they should be going for something more like $50k for linux?
Somehow I doubt microsoft will kill apple off... one apple is about the only semblence to a claim they aren't a monopoly that microsoft has got. Two, microsoft owns a huge chunk of apple, and billg owns another large chunk.
" If the person is a web designer or a programmer and needs to test to see how the site renders or the program compiles/runs outside of the Mac environment?"
Wouldn't a more obvious solution be to simply design it outside the mac environment to begin with?
"I think it would be really nice to be able to develop and test web sites on a lone laptop or system... mostly on the go."
you do know that a mac really doesn't have any sort of edge on a pc in the web design department right? The graphics one works with in the web world can be rendered on a pentium 75! Anything that is too big for a 486 has no business being on the web. Granted, with extensions you can make view source open in a real text editor if you use firebird on your mac... but that is just catching up, not winning the race.
"Then you have companies that require software that will only run on PCs... by being able to run the software within a window rather than setting aside space for another monitor/keyboard/mouse and PC unit... that can be quite helpful if desk space limited."
Or again, you can simply get rid of the macs and run just the pc's. It's not like you'll find anything that runs on a mac that can't be easily replaced on a pc and 99% of the time at lower cost.
yes but since slow x11 apps are faster than fast windows apps....
Until apple decides to open up OS X, not even slightly interested in helping thier platform grow.
Wine isn't pretending to be the win32 api, it's a 100% native implementation of the api!
If microsoft ported the win32 gui and api to linux, would you call that implementation of the api an emulator? NO it's the win32 api... Does it then automatically become "emulated" is someone else writes the code besides microsoft. I hope not because microsoft doesn't really do much of anything in terms of programming... almost all their stuff is written by 3rd parties in "joint" projects that microsoft bails out of.
The win32 api is a set of rules and commands an application interfaces with, you can't emulate it, it's impossible to emulate an api... you can only implement an api or interface with it. Wine isn't another api that is compatible with the win32 api, wine is an implementation of the win32 api on the linux operating system.
no wine IS an api implementation. If I write an sql database system, I'm not emulating sql, I'm implementing it.
In the same way, if I write a win32 api system, I'm not emulating the win32 api, I'm implementing it.
Wine in no way pretends to be windows to get windows applications to work, it merely implements the same api those programs use on windows so that when they call X function, X function exists in a 100% non-emulated native implementation.
I didn't put anyone in iraq. The discussion wasn't about the merit's of war. It was about the economy. Whether or neither your feelings on how just the war was nor my own are really relevant.
Please stay on topic. War strengthens the economy, that is fact. The morals of war are irrelevant. I'm not saying Bush is a good guy, I'm not saying the war was right or just or moral. I'm saying war is good for the bottom line, since when has anything but the bottom line mattered to the people of this capitalist country anyway?
BTW nobody died in iraq (on our side) until the war was already over... since the "war" (it was really a skirmish) ended 160 have died according to recent CNN reports.
"On the other hand, computers could handle dance music just fine..."
;)
AFAIK pretty much ALL dance music is already computer generated nowdays
But if you've listened to ANY song you've enjoyed since the early 80's on a cd your listening to computer generated music. It was less sophisticated and less "computer" as we know it today but anything recorded in a studio in the 50's on up has been "enhanced". The moment they apply a single effect you are no longer listening to music the artist created but rather listening to a computer rendering of that music.
The reason you find CGM less interesting and think it has no soul or feeling is because 90% of the time you hear it you think you are listening to musicians with instruments. The only time you hear CGM and know it is when they are making the fact known or are going for a "techno" feel.
That's a sad thought that they might port the backend but not the clients. I suspect they will though when linux is their primary tool of choice. They probably would have made netware clients if netware had ANY desktop market. Linux is nowhere near windows in desktop market share but it's certainly up there among any other systems used for the desktop. It arguably (depending on whose numbers you go by) has already surpassed MacOS in the desktop...
Yes but they Specifically announced they were porting EVERYTHING from netware to linux and dropping netware... then quickly recanting the dropping netware portion the next day after recieving calls from 10,000 netware fanatics. But if you carefully read their statement they actually use politician speak to say the exact same thing they did in the first statement! They don't say anything about producing more versions of netware, they say they will continue supporting it!
This is offtopic, please mod it as such.. skipping my karma bonus here.
gnu/linux, this is bullshit, wtf is stallman thinking! The operating system is the kernel, everything else in the system is an application running on top of that kernel. Yes you can port applications to different operating systems Congrats for figuring this out!
The entire "certain apps are part of the OS" crap is something microsoft made up. Are you actually supporting this BS just to get kudos for the work someone else did? Jesus christ there are acknowledgements to gnu all over the damn place, often right in the output of the apps in question, there are is absolutely NO excuse for having the gall to name LINUS' and contributors OS after YOU and contributors APPLICATIONS. This is ridiculous. The GNU tools are worthless without an OS to run on... an OS is worthless without apps... but there are plenty of other apps.
Why don't we name it Wine/Linux instead, after all wine is an app that runs on the OS and may well be the thing that makes it viable for the desktop. Or XFREE86/Linux, the gui at least has a better argument than a few generally easily replaceable basic tools (most of which have alternatives which could be taken from BSD without a blink)
To correct this self serving idiocy. When refering to the operating system. Call it LINUX, when refering to it generically to mean the OS plus whatever random apps... call it LINUX. When refering to X distribution... call it X distribution or X distribution LINUX since it's X's distribution of the LINUX OS + some random apps.
Visual C++ is hardly the only C++ development app. They aren't supposed to be pushing software vendors (MS Visual C++ code only works with *gasp* visual c++ and generally windows).
Non microsoft doesn't equate old and obsolete. This mentality sickens me.
oracle isn't a monopoly.
Give me a break, the windows loving mods will mod you into oblivion most of the time simply for mentioning linux.
you can edit text with emacs? damn it really can do everything! I've had it doing my laundry, washing dishes, painting the house, and thinking for me for quite a while now. So now days emacs can not only dictate the text for me, it can write it to!
Emacs surely must be the closest thing to AI yet.
Seriously, if you want to edit text, use vi, if you want something which can do everything on god's green earth but does all of it poorly, use emacs.
I won't argue the point of whether or not a monopoly is bad... it's been argued to death and society in general agree's it's a bad thing.
Microsoft has a monopoly... hence they lose the right to do anything which shuts out the competition, like using thier vast reserves of cash and desktop monopoly to bribe professors.