The purpose of a key in a car isn't to keep the owner out. It's so the owner can make sure only the people the OWNER wants can get in or drive away.
This is a way of making sure the owner has to buy a new copy (cd protection is ridiculous and even the game manufacturers know it doesn't stop pirating) if the cd gets damaged or lost. The costs they charge for replacements generally run too high to be worth paying.
"Some of the appz/games in stores get cracked and put back on shelves. It happens all the time. And how many of you keep your sales receipt, box or even CD? I have software running that is paid for but I don't have evidence that I bought some of it; I still have a right to run it."
I assume you mean like shareware you have to buy? Well no, if it was cracked you don't have a right to run it, sorry buddy..
"The same user running Linux has a chance of double clicking a perl script which wipes (or emails) out their home directory for them. The fact that it's not a publicized feature of the email program doesn't say it's impossible to make the program do it. Hackers find and fix bugs all the time, but how often do people really update their software?"
Incorrect, there is no distribution that I'm aware of in which you don't have to explicitly give execute permissions to a file to make it execute.
If I however I go about it download file x which is a perl script, email or via a link. Double clicking on that file in the gui will open it in a text viewer or editor, or else ask what application to use. Since it doesn't have execute permission it's treated as data... along with any other binary you download. The file either must be right-click properties modified to be executable, or chmod'd. After that it can be double clicked, but that makes for a CLEAR distinction that guarantees you MUST know the file is going to be executed.
" Windows has been the de facto virus target, but that doesn't seem to have increased code quality... "
It doesn't matter how many users windows has, it still has the same development staff. In the open source world more users = more developers reviewing and fixing code.
"The point I was making is that Linux, with a large user base, will turn into Windows"
Just out of curiousity how large does the user base become before it turns into windows? Linux currently has millions of deploymentss. 2% of the worldwide desktop market may seem small compared to windows... but it hardly is small when you consider how many desktops that actually is.
I seriously doubt linux will ever turn into windows;) No matter how many users there is still no motivation for early release, patches still get reviewed. It's the development model and the collective brains of the community in design that makes open source software so stable.. not lack of users.
Actually accomplishing this would require COMPLETELY throwing away every line of windows code and every line of code every produced by microsoft and hiring a 3rd party to write it from scratch... yes including the gui code. No not as a joint effort like in NT.
you have two seperate cable modems and cable connections? or one connection and behind a router (like a linksys).
If it's the first, your stupid because they are splitting the same bandwidth pool and your spending double for ZERO additional bandwidth.
If it's the second the router is probably acting as a firewall before the xp box and keeping you safe. BTW 90% (not sure about zone alarm specifically) of software firewalls were vulnerable to the rpc virus regardless of what ports were blocked, because of the microsoft hooks they use.
Behind that router is not directly connected to the net, hook the box up to the cable modem directly, even keep your zone alarm and let her rip.
The gpl software exists at various stages of developement and you can pretty much always go download it, stable or not. You also haven't paid for software that is supposed to function. According to microsoft that 200+ you paid for office can't perform the function you bought it for.
First of all microsoft is losing market share, not gaining. It will never get to the point where there is nothing else... although it may get to the point where there is no microsoft.
And microsoft makes it clear in their EULA that they don't consider their software fit for any purpose (yes they actually say they don't guarantee it's suitable for ANY purpose).
"And Windows XP does hide the administrator from the user. Nothing is preventing the user from running as administrator or joining the adminisrators group however, just like nothing is preventing users from running as root on their own system, or adding themselves to the root group. Again, it comes down to user stupidity."
Turn on xp machine for the first time, whether from install or an oem install. Create the one user you have to TADA, you've created an administrator.
I've never since a linux install do this (you could of course, anyone can write a linux install), but what I've always seen is give root a password and create a regular user.
"You mean that the fact Microsoft has over 80% of the desktop market now, and had much more before, has nothing to do with the worms that attack it? Do the math - it's an easy one."
No I'm saying linux has what, about 2% of the desktop now? ok so we multiply by 40 and we get 80%, now lets scale the worms, virus, etc over the past 5yrs. I guarantee you the 20,000+ windows virus' will be more than the 200 you get by multiplying those that have been created for linux and *nix. 1 of the 5 for linux was cross platform, 2 of the others involved bugs that existed in windows versions of the same apps.
You argument sounds convincing until one actually looks at the numbers and starts to think about it. These aren't the number of potential flaws discovered and fixed... one could argue that finding and fixing more bugs actually means there are fewer around for hackers to find and that any app has lots of bugs to be found, or one could say that means that app has lots of bugs, take your pick. But these aren't those patched bugs, these are all security holes, and security holes that have been successfully exploited by automated often self reliant and replicating programs!
having to type./ alone tells you your dealing with an executable. As for double click, last I checked you still have to give execute permission on the file before you can do so. I think expliciting marking a file as executable constitutes as a "distinction" don't you? Unless you've changed the umask to make every file you create executable, which is not only incredibly fscking stupid... but it's something a user who doesn't know the difference between filetypes is highly unlikely to know how to do.
if they have as much money as arnold, I'll guarantee you they've had oral sex.
Hell I think emacs actually performs oral sex now if you execute the key sequence ctrl+b-l-o-w then type the name of the target at the prompt. I think there might be a range limitation right now, but later I'm pretty sure they adding range head.
That's the difference though. Yes you have permission to access your own files on a *nix system (at least a personal *nix system, in many cases I don't give users permissions to modify their home directory). But you cannot execute a file without knowing your executing it. On windows an uninformed user can execute a program without knowing the consequences and without knowing the difference between the executable and other types of files. On a *nix system these concepts are handled in a such a way that there is a clear distinction.
The user who doesn't know the difference wouldn't be able to figure out HOW to execute it.
yes THIS requires the user execute it... but since when is that because it's a worm? It's not actually a worm unless it spreads WITHOUT user intervention AFAIK you have it backwards.
"The point is - it's the user's fault! Not Microsoft's. Something like this could just as easily happen on a *nix box if the user has sufficient privileges."
Yes but this and many many many other viruses, worms, etc all exploit security holes in windows and other microsoft apps. That makes it microsoft's fault. It's also the poor design of the system that is responsible for these users running as administrator (or with equivelent privlage) to begin with. NOS or not a NOS, there should be a clear definition of user account vs admin account and if anything admin account should be hidden out of the way so clueless and just plain stupid are unaware it's there.
"Besides, they should have a virus scanner anyway"
It's sad this mentality has sprang up, people who honestly believe virus scanners are the norm and your unenlightened for not having one. You realize there is no other operating system in existance in which the average user has virus scanning software? On *nix systems it's actually difficult to find one (except the type for mailservers that scan for windows viruses to stop them before they get to the windows boxes).
This fault again is on Microsoft, it's their shoddy software that makes having a anti-virus app a must. Virus/worms/trojans/etc do exist for other operating systems, but they are rare and don't constitute a significant enough risk for most to justify the money for the software.
nah, the signing would be cracked, or the holes would allow it to be bypassed... just like blaster bypassed pretty well all software based firewalls because they used ms os hooks.
While there are MORE systems on the internet running windows. It's interesting that *nix based systems are far more responsible for the stability of the net as a whole. NOBODY depends on windows at the pillar levels of the net, and not many depend on it at the smaller levels of infastructure either. The net is built on *nix, and viewed by windows... but the viewing audience is slowly learning why it's built on *nix and following...
Educate the typical dumb Microsoft user? You mean switch them to an open source operating system and make big flash cards. One with a penguin (I think the bsd devil would confuse for this excercise) and one with a flying window logo. Then hold up penguin flash and say "good". Hold up flying window thing "bad". Then add butterfly guy "just fscking sick".
Nah, I think that would probably be too complex a course for your average windows user. Maybe after reincarnation into a gerbil or some other slightly more intelligent creature?
and if you write it without the register instruction... you miss out on the 1% chance. If the compiler ignores it then no loss, if it doesn't you gain. So how is training yourself to automatically do this a bad thing?
"Imagine if such a rediculous law went into affect that software companies had to send out patches for exploits on hard media. Every company (including RedHat and every other distro company) would be out of business."
I doubt it, AOL and the other major ISP's nonstop bulk mail MILLIONS of signup cd's with the understanding that 99.99% of them will be thrown away instantly.
"Why? Is this another fantasy law where only MS has to play by it? Simply because YOU refuse to download on dial-up"
As an illegal monopoly it's ok to make rules that only microsoft is subject to, any such rules are part of the penalty for the crime they commit, which is akin to murder... actually it's worse since they have greatly hindered the progress of mankind.
Also not all computer users have or can get internet access.
To top that off, I haven't seen any other software vendors who push EVERY piece of software they make out so full of holes and bugs that it constitutes BLATANT NEGLIGANCE.
"It's just so much easier to fall down and play victim though isn't it? Poor you. You can afford a thousand dollar PC but can't spring for $50 to get antivirus and firewall software. MS has to hold your hand."
They better hold his hand, they wrote the shoddy software which makes anti-virus software neccesary on windows.
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The purpose of a key in a car isn't to keep the owner out. It's so the owner can make sure only the people the OWNER wants can get in or drive away.
This is a way of making sure the owner has to buy a new copy (cd protection is ridiculous and even the game manufacturers know it doesn't stop pirating) if the cd gets damaged or lost. The costs they charge for replacements generally run too high to be worth paying.
"Some of the appz/games in stores get cracked and put back on shelves. It happens all the time. And how many of you keep your sales receipt, box or even CD? I have software running that is paid for but I don't have evidence that I bought some of it; I still have a right to run it."
I assume you mean like shareware you have to buy? Well no, if it was cracked you don't have a right to run it, sorry buddy..
"The same user running Linux has a chance of double clicking a perl script which wipes (or emails) out their home directory for them. The fact that it's not a publicized feature of the email program doesn't say it's impossible to make the program do it. Hackers find and fix bugs all the time, but how often do people really update their software?"
Incorrect, there is no distribution that I'm aware of in which you don't have to explicitly give execute permissions to a file to make it execute.
If I however I go about it download file x which is a perl script, email or via a link. Double clicking on that file in the gui will open it in a text viewer or editor, or else ask what application to use. Since it doesn't have execute permission it's treated as data... along with any other binary you download. The file either must be right-click properties modified to be executable, or chmod'd. After that it can be double clicked, but that makes for a CLEAR distinction that guarantees you MUST know the file is going to be executed.
" Windows has been the de facto virus target, but that doesn't seem to have increased code quality...
"
It doesn't matter how many users windows has, it still has the same development staff. In the open source world more users = more developers reviewing and fixing code.
"The point I was making is that Linux, with a large user base, will turn into Windows"
;) No matter how many users there is still no motivation for early release, patches still get reviewed. It's the development model and the collective brains of the community in design that makes open source software so stable.. not lack of users.
Just out of curiousity how large does the user base become before it turns into windows? Linux currently has millions of deploymentss. 2% of the worldwide desktop market may seem small compared to windows... but it hardly is small when you consider how many desktops that actually is.
I seriously doubt linux will ever turn into windows
Just out of curiousity, who would big bird's running mate? Seeing as big bird is dead I'd imagine this could be critical information before voting!
Actually accomplishing this would require COMPLETELY throwing away every line of windows code and every line of code every produced by microsoft and hiring a 3rd party to write it from scratch... yes including the gui code. No not as a joint effort like in NT.
my linux gaming box has been running for over a year, since that's how long I've been able to play 3d games with wineX I'd say that pretty good.
you have two seperate cable modems and cable connections? or one connection and behind a router (like a linksys).
If it's the first, your stupid because they are splitting the same bandwidth pool and your spending double for ZERO additional bandwidth.
If it's the second the router is probably acting as a firewall before the xp box and keeping you safe. BTW 90% (not sure about zone alarm specifically) of software firewalls were vulnerable to the rpc virus regardless of what ports were blocked, because of the microsoft hooks they use.
Behind that router is not directly connected to the net, hook the box up to the cable modem directly, even keep your zone alarm and let her rip.
"The damned POS's still work, so why spend the money on new OS's, when we can spend the money on useful infrastructure."
Please define "work", nt4 and win2k do not make it anywhere near "working" status by my definition.
The average desktop user doesn't even know there are such things as portable mp3 players.
The gpl software exists at various stages of developement and you can pretty much always go download it, stable or not. You also haven't paid for software that is supposed to function. According to microsoft that 200+ you paid for office can't perform the function you bought it for.
or better yet, *nix. Although eventually novell products will be exclusively running on *nix systems.
First of all microsoft is losing market share, not gaining. It will never get to the point where there is nothing else... although it may get to the point where there is no microsoft.
And microsoft makes it clear in their EULA that they don't consider their software fit for any purpose (yes they actually say they don't guarantee it's suitable for ANY purpose).
"And Windows XP does hide the administrator from the user. Nothing is preventing the user from running as administrator or joining the adminisrators group however, just like nothing is preventing users from running as root on their own system, or adding themselves to the root group. Again, it comes down to user stupidity."
Turn on xp machine for the first time, whether from install or an oem install. Create the one user you have to TADA, you've created an administrator.
I've never since a linux install do this (you could of course, anyone can write a linux install), but what I've always seen is give root a password and create a regular user.
"You mean that the fact Microsoft has over 80% of the desktop market now, and had much more before, has nothing to do with the worms that attack it? Do the math - it's an easy one."
No I'm saying linux has what, about 2% of the desktop now? ok so we multiply by 40 and we get 80%, now lets scale the worms, virus, etc over the past 5yrs. I guarantee you the 20,000+ windows virus' will be more than the 200 you get by multiplying those that have been created for linux and *nix. 1 of the 5 for linux was cross platform, 2 of the others involved bugs that existed in windows versions of the same apps.
You argument sounds convincing until one actually looks at the numbers and starts to think about it. These aren't the number of potential flaws discovered and fixed... one could argue that finding and fixing more bugs actually means there are fewer around for hackers to find and that any app has lots of bugs to be found, or one could say that means that app has lots of bugs, take your pick. But these aren't those patched bugs, these are all security holes, and security holes that have been successfully exploited by automated often self reliant and replicating programs!
having to type ./ alone tells you your dealing with an executable. As for double click, last I checked you still have to give execute permission on the file before you can do so. I think expliciting marking a file as executable constitutes as a "distinction" don't you? Unless you've changed the umask to make every file you create executable, which is not only incredibly fscking stupid... but it's something a user who doesn't know the difference between filetypes is highly unlikely to know how to do.
if they have as much money as arnold, I'll guarantee you they've had oral sex.
Hell I think emacs actually performs oral sex now if you execute the key sequence ctrl+b-l-o-w then type the name of the target at the prompt. I think there might be a range limitation right now, but later I'm pretty sure they adding range head.
That's the difference though. Yes you have permission to access your own files on a *nix system (at least a personal *nix system, in many cases I don't give users permissions to modify their home directory). But you cannot execute a file without knowing your executing it. On windows an uninformed user can execute a program without knowing the consequences and without knowing the difference between the executable and other types of files. On a *nix system these concepts are handled in a such a way that there is a clear distinction.
The user who doesn't know the difference wouldn't be able to figure out HOW to execute it.
yes THIS requires the user execute it... but since when is that because it's a worm? It's not actually a worm unless it spreads WITHOUT user intervention AFAIK you have it backwards.
"The point is - it's the user's fault! Not Microsoft's. Something like this could just as easily happen on a *nix box if the user has sufficient privileges."
Yes but this and many many many other viruses, worms, etc all exploit security holes in windows and other microsoft apps. That makes it microsoft's fault. It's also the poor design of the system that is responsible for these users running as administrator (or with equivelent privlage) to begin with. NOS or not a NOS, there should be a clear definition of user account vs admin account and if anything admin account should be hidden out of the way so clueless and just plain stupid are unaware it's there.
"Besides, they should have a virus scanner anyway"
It's sad this mentality has sprang up, people who honestly believe virus scanners are the norm and your unenlightened for not having one. You realize there is no other operating system in existance in which the average user has virus scanning software? On *nix systems it's actually difficult to find one (except the type for mailservers that scan for windows viruses to stop them before they get to the windows boxes).
This fault again is on Microsoft, it's their shoddy software that makes having a anti-virus app a must. Virus/worms/trojans/etc do exist for other operating systems, but they are rare and don't constitute a significant enough risk for most to justify the money for the software.
nah, the signing would be cracked, or the holes would allow it to be bypassed... just like blaster bypassed pretty well all software based firewalls because they used ms os hooks.
While there are MORE systems on the internet running windows. It's interesting that *nix based systems are far more responsible for the stability of the net as a whole. NOBODY depends on windows at the pillar levels of the net, and not many depend on it at the smaller levels of infastructure either. The net is built on *nix, and viewed by windows... but the viewing audience is slowly learning why it's built on *nix and following...
Educate the typical dumb Microsoft user? You mean switch them to an open source operating system and make big flash cards. One with a penguin (I think the bsd devil would confuse for this excercise) and one with a flying window logo. Then hold up penguin flash and say "good". Hold up flying window thing "bad". Then add butterfly guy "just fscking sick".
Nah, I think that would probably be too complex a course for your average windows user. Maybe after reincarnation into a gerbil or some other slightly more intelligent creature?
could it be because these recent worms have been attacking THEM?
and if you write it without the register instruction... you miss out on the 1% chance. If the compiler ignores it then no loss, if it doesn't you gain. So how is training yourself to automatically do this a bad thing?
"Imagine if such a rediculous law went into affect that software companies had to send out patches for exploits on hard media. Every company (including RedHat and every other distro company) would be out of business."
I doubt it, AOL and the other major ISP's nonstop bulk mail MILLIONS of signup cd's with the understanding that 99.99% of them will be thrown away instantly.
"Why? Is this another fantasy law where only MS has to play by it? Simply because YOU refuse to download on dial-up"
As an illegal monopoly it's ok to make rules that only microsoft is subject to, any such rules are part of the penalty for the crime they commit, which is akin to murder... actually it's worse since they have greatly hindered the progress of mankind.
Also not all computer users have or can get internet access.
To top that off, I haven't seen any other software vendors who push EVERY piece of software they make out so full of holes and bugs that it constitutes BLATANT NEGLIGANCE.
"It's just so much easier to fall down and play victim though isn't it? Poor you. You can afford a thousand dollar PC but can't spring for $50 to get antivirus and firewall software. MS has to hold your hand."
They better hold his hand, they wrote the shoddy software which makes anti-virus software neccesary on windows.