Because it's not the next logical step. Black boxes in the cars can be argued from the "driving is a privilege" standpoint, and how it is the public arena. If you don't like it, burn your license and take public transportation. If you want privacy, driving around a 3000 pound hunk of metal at 60 mph isn't the time or place to seek it.
I've only been in one accident where I got rear ended by a dumbass while I was *stopped* at a red light. The dumbass, to his credit, took full responsibility, but he could have pulled some BS. A good black box system would show I was not moving at the time of impact, and had, in fact, been stopped for over ten seconds. Sucked to be the dumbass. My trailer hitch furrowed the hood of his *brand* *new* Honda Accord.
After all...if it saves one life, right?
Non sequitur. The black boxes only make reconstruction of events after the fact easier. They are not preventative.
Please mod parent poster down. He's a Republican pushing the "Terrorist's for John Kerry" meme. It's disgusting that GOP members and supporters can stoop so low.
Wow. What a dumbass. I'm as far from the GOP as one can get, but an idiotlogical dumbass like you can't be bothered with reality, right? Did I even say which swing they would be trying for? I can see them WANTING Bush in power so they continue to have an excuse for attacking, dumbass. Kerry is an unknown to them, dumbass.
Turn on a radio or a television or open a newspaper, dumbass. EVERYONE- left, right and center- is talking about the potential for terrorism to affect the election, dumbass. You know, like they already did in Spain, dumbass.
Well sure it could, but crashing a cropduster into a Waffle House isn't going to have the same kind of effect.
That's a debatable point, actually, and I think you're being a bit of a bigot (and this is from a guy who sometimes wishes much of the "South" would slip off into another dimension).
If I were a terrorist, I'd be looking for the *least* likely targets. I might even just throw a dart at a map. One of the aspects of terror is to, well, terrorize, and an implementation of random "can happen anywhere at anytime" strikes will accomplish that. So, yeah, a croipduster loaded with smallpox crashed into an anonymous waffle house in SaddleCloth, Iowa would have a pretty big effect. Especially if your current goal is to swing an election and not, say, upset financial markets.
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An experiment does not have to be dehumanizing. You do a pilot program. You HAVE to try things or you never know if it works. I agree that it's not really hard science, hence you have to **TRY** **IT**.
I just waant to try something new. WHY DOES THIS ATTITUDE ALWATS ENCOUNTER RESISTANCE EVEN FROM THE MAN (geek) IN THE STREET (Internet)?
People are also just tossing out strawman arguments against the idea. That's what I mean by releasing your political prejudices for a while. All I implied was private sector schools (TM). It should have been obvious I don't mean the robot mills described in the book review, just the general concept. School(TM) in the real world does not automatically imply it's completely unregulated.
Everyone and his brother thinks they know exactly what will happen without a single scrap of empirical experience to back the opinion up, and that's just frigging annoying as all hell.
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Nice try at an anti-government jab
Hey, just trying to get in as many as I can before they're outlawed.
And there are inanimate bricks lying under a bridge in the outskirts of Rio that knew I wasn't talking about the schools in the book.
ObDuh: Duh!
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If the popups lead to better educated children, I have absolutely no problem with them at all.
As I *said*, how about a ***pilot*** program. You know... TRY IT OUT instead of making ideological prejudgements based on scare tactics of subliminal advertising and other urban myths? Can we at least TRY and be scientific by running an experiment?
Personally I think it would backfire though and people would just become hardened to the ads.
Do you have a actual factual basis for this conclusion other than "business = evil"?
Can people not set aside their political prejudices once in a while so we can actually try something new? This is actually the main problem facing this country these days. If a solution can be shown to not be 100% perfect, it gets tossed away even if the new solution is 80% effective versus the 40% effectiveness of the incumbent system. It's madness.
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The kid comes home from school (not School(TM) yet but soon I'm sure) and goes online.
Gee, I dunno... could School(TM) really be worse than School(Govt-Spec-12-5129-00917)?
I dunno. Our sysadmins keep all Unix system information hidden as if it were precious Jedi knowledge. It took me seven emails last week just to find out what to source and the correct invocation for the new version of Modelsim. The PDF manuals were on a server at the South Pole or something. Put up a freaking web page on the Intranet with this stuff already!
Earlier this year my Exceed xterms stopped running my.login script when I login even though nothing changed on *my* end. No one seems to be able to explain this.
Oh, what the hell... I'll send them some e-flowers or something. Maybe then they'll tell me how to run the new version of FPGA Compiler, or get my.cshrc working consistently so I don't get the ^H^H^H^H^H effect every third login.
No, it's hard work at a job or personally owned business that allows him to live his comfortable life.
Yes, both given the oppurtunity to exist thanks to Capitalism. Remember to follow your logic *all* the way through, kids, or wind up looking like a jackass.
Capitalism is an idea... nothing more.
Wow! Thanks for newsflash, Mr. Cronkite.
There are other ideas, some better,
In theory.
some worse.
In practice.
Just because we have Capitalism doesn't mean it's the best idea or the only way.
So come up with something new. Toss the centralized economies into the dustbin of history where they belong and come up with something NEW! I'll listen to something fresh. Honestly.
And you talk about faulty logic. For shame.
Ah. You wound me, sir. Oh, no, wait, that "logic" was *your* strawmen. Never mind.
Don't have any answers to the tough questions, do you? Just mod them away and continue to advocate blah blah blah. Fascists, the lot of you! Facists, I say!!!
"Bumblethink" is exactly correct, Mr. HarveyBirdman, as in your bumblethink. "Capitalism" is what has brought us such wonders as Enron, M$, SCO, etc. as the list goes on...
Blah, blah, blah, Cleetus. I could list the dirty laundry of whatever system that makes you cream in your jeans. It's pointless, and the activity of empty-headed ideologues with no substance.
As for the internet, thank God that TCP/IP is basically public domain and not "owned" by something like M$ or SCO or some other evil capitalist organization.
*sigh* Another prissy fool who has no concept of what real evil is. Is it any wonder I want to move to the Moon. This is most of humanity, folks. If not now then in a very few years. Little singularities of monochromatic politics with worldviews composed entirely of lies and mythology. Go see I, Robot and replace the robots with people. That's the future.
And your depiction of Korea as a "primitive place?" ROTFL.
Uh, no. I never called Korea a primitve place, you illiterate dumbass from the Fifth Circle Of Hell. If you're going to blast a load of ideological diarrhea over what I said, at least make it something I really said, toots. I impled that the original poster was calling the USA primitve because we needed to "modernize our nation", and then I had some fun with it. DO try to keep up with the key changes, Pogo.
I've lived in Korea (and Japan, etc.)and also had the misfortune to visit the USA. At least in those "primitive states", I didn't have to worry about some idiot pulling out a gun, with or without provocation, training, etc.
*snore* So stay away. We already have our fair share of stupid, ignorant ideological mental pygmies without you adding to their inane blather. But I guess that's the beauty of the internet, eh? You can take your mentally vacuous shit into the public discourse from anywhere in the world. I hope you remembered to wipe.
Of course crime rates in South Korea and Japan have been rising for years, but, hey, who cares about facts in the mythological tapestry you call your perception of reality?
And people wonder why Americans are considered arrogant, ignorant, etc. Americans would do well to keep their mouths closed, their ears and eyes open, and travel more, rather than blustering about in their usual arrogant, gun-at-the-hip, ego-mode-engaged blunderings.
And here comes the bigotry and stereotyping. Typical. Sad. OK, here's another stereotype. Maybe we don't travel much because all we find out there is a lot of hypocritical, holier-than-thou uber-assholes living in homes of shattered glass who can't recognize prime bullshit when it's dropped in a steaming pile directly on their heads.
I leave you with the words of a great American, Mark Twain:
"Sir, you are a complte and utter dumbass of the lowest order. If you cared one whit about the destiny of the free nations of the planet Earth, you would do well to immediately log off your electro-computing device, make a quick and efficient trip to your kitchen, grab your sharpest cutting implement, and proceed to slit both wrists so that your life juices may fall to the floor and thus extinguish your useless existence, and save the public at large some small but measureable amount of blithering madness."
Well, I'm paraphrasing heavily;-) It was from the original author's note to Huck Finn. Wait... maybe it was Piers Anthony in his 207th Xanth novel. Hmmm...
OK, we spend a googolplex of simoleans to put a fat, glowing fiber pipe into the home of every Tom, Leroy, Jose, Abdul and Chang (hey, multiculturalism!) with enough bandwidth to download fifteen complete pr0n DVDs per second and, what...?
Does Vinge's singuarity occur? Does the whole thing become artificially aware? Will some kid in Ulan Bator confer with some kid in Muncie and a grad student in New Dehli, and invent the nanoforge? Will my online bill paying take 4.2 minutes instead of 4.4 minutes? Will life seem happier and grander and just plain smell better?
No, I'm not a Luddite (as the word is commonly misused), but neither do I advoicate tech for tech's sake beyond my own gadget fetish.
Example: We keep pouring laptops into schools. Is that accomplishing anything? It's difficult to find any sort of tracking data that shows throwing computers at the education problem is any more effective than throwing more money. Yeah, you can email homework and automate a lot of stuff, but are test scores improving more than one standard deviation of the data noise?
What I *can* find is polls that claim many people don't care about having broadband. I see this myself amongst the many tech professionals with whom I work. They really don't need that much bandwidth at home, and many only went to DSL or cable to free up the phone line.
But, hey, I'm open minded (really!). Why is the expansion of broadband so important that we need to spend precious public funds to do it, and not just let the adoption grow at the pace the market desires?
I don't think so. Canada is only one tenth the population of the US, and has a far lower per capita GDP than the US has (Canadian per capita GDP is the sama as Korea actually), yet Canada (and Korea) both still have far wider broadband deployments than the US.
Yes, because Canada is smaller which is what the original poster SAID. You forget Canadians are all huddled together in the lower regions (I guess so they can snuggle up to the USA. They just love us there, you know). Like, 97% of Canada is barren wasteland inhabited only by mastadons and saber tooth rabbits. I saw it on Ren & Stimpy so I know it's true.
It has just not been important for the US govt that this get done, and to the telcos either, that are always too shortsighted. So now other countries have leaped ahead.
No, because the other country's have less to do to modernize. Why is this so hard to accept over Byzantine corpo-governmental flim flam?
There is no excuse for it really, rather than corporate and govt bungling. The US has by far the highest p/c GDP of any of these countries, and is certainly rich enough to pay for it if they wanted (heck, the money used in Iraq up to now would have paid for it a dozen times over...)
Or a simple lack of market demand, which has been shown in poll after poll. But, hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good ideo-rant.
So its not about density, or 'too expensive'.. Just the people in the power to make change don't care to do anything about it...
Well, no, it *is* about density and size, and about consumers not really giving a crap about it.
Having broadband and a video cam, for instance, is no good for me, because my girlfriend has dial-up, thus limiting chat options. I blame lots of this on American capitalism, but perhaps if we get a Democratic congress again, this can be quelled.
If this is what passes for critical thinking these days, then I HOPE Bush gets us to the Moon, because that's where I want to live. And I'm not sure a quarter million miles of vacuum is enough to insulate such exotoxic bumblethink.
So tell your bitch to step up to the plate and buy some broadband access. Why should my taxes support you and your bint's video masturbation sessions?
I recently saw a 1.5 Mbps line referred to as "shitty" by a Japanese blogger.
I once read a blog where a grown man admitted to liking Britney Spears' music. You can find many strange and grotesque things in blogs.
So what was the context? Was he comparing it to his connection at work? Was he exaggerating the difference between 1.5Mbps and 3.0Mbps? You can't just toss out an isolated quips without context. Who are you? Michael Moore?
In America, that's supposedly pretty fast for a consumer. We need to look to countries like S. Korea for inspiration, stop trying to milk money out of customers by capping uploads and such, and just modernize our damn nation.
Yeah, the birthplace of the Internet is really existing in such a primitive state, isn't it, just because it's failing to meet some arbitrary metic you have a persoanl boner for? Why I was telling the local serfs the other day as we were out collecting filth for the solstice festival (with human sacrifice) just how backward our sad but proud nation was compared to the glory of the all them Other Lands. Then some Visigoths showed up and the conversation moved to other topics.
The real problem, if it *is* a problem, is that many people don't give a tinker's cuss about broadband into their home. I know many professional people, quite a few in the high tech fields, who don't really care about multi-megabit home access. Most went for the lowest tier of cable and DSL primarily to free up the phone line.
I know the ideo-filtration in your brain can never accept this, but it's capitalism that allows you to live your comfortable little life of video-conferenced skanks and happy Slashdot access.
Jak II had this problem. Pointless wandering across a crowded city where if you so much as brushed another vehucle, you'd get the security forces swooping in on you. It also had some of the most vindictive restart points I have EVER seen in a platformer. I got to 60% or so and just gave up on it. There was an area where you had to battle about 40 enemies, jump overs lasers with random movement (no learnable pattern), and then a tricky platform jump area over the "bottomless pit" where one error kills you. Mess up, and you are sent all the way back to do the whole 10 minute ordeal over. Fuck that.
Almost as bad as the quadruple fire pillar jump in the first Tomb Raider. A very tricky area- probably hardest in the game. One error, and you got sent back to, like, the previous continent and had to run all the way back, and by the time you got there, you forgot what you needed to do differently. I finally did it after about 30 tries, but it wasn't a sense of accomplishment I felt.
Slashdot Mirror
I've only been in one accident where I got rear ended by a dumbass while I was *stopped* at a red light. The dumbass, to his credit, took full responsibility, but he could have pulled some BS. A good black box system would show I was not moving at the time of impact, and had, in fact, been stopped for over ten seconds. Sucked to be the dumbass. My trailer hitch furrowed the hood of his *brand* *new* Honda Accord.
After all...if it saves one life, right?
Non sequitur. The black boxes only make reconstruction of events after the fact easier. They are not preventative.
Wow. What a dumbass. I'm as far from the GOP as one can get, but an idiotlogical dumbass like you can't be bothered with reality, right? Did I even say which swing they would be trying for? I can see them WANTING Bush in power so they continue to have an excuse for attacking, dumbass. Kerry is an unknown to them, dumbass.
Turn on a radio or a television or open a newspaper, dumbass. EVERYONE- left, right and center- is talking about the potential for terrorism to affect the election, dumbass. You know, like they already did in Spain, dumbass.
Look up "spread spectrum".
That's a debatable point, actually, and I think you're being a bit of a bigot (and this is from a guy who sometimes wishes much of the "South" would slip off into another dimension).
If I were a terrorist, I'd be looking for the *least* likely targets. I might even just throw a dart at a map. One of the aspects of terror is to, well, terrorize, and an implementation of random "can happen anywhere at anytime" strikes will accomplish that. So, yeah, a croipduster loaded with smallpox crashed into an anonymous waffle house in SaddleCloth, Iowa would have a pretty big effect. Especially if your current goal is to swing an election and not, say, upset financial markets.
I just waant to try something new. WHY DOES THIS ATTITUDE ALWATS ENCOUNTER RESISTANCE EVEN FROM THE MAN (geek) IN THE STREET (Internet)?
People are also just tossing out strawman arguments against the idea. That's what I mean by releasing your political prejudices for a while. All I implied was private sector schools (TM). It should have been obvious I don't mean the robot mills described in the book review, just the general concept. School(TM) in the real world does not automatically imply it's completely unregulated.
Everyone and his brother thinks they know exactly what will happen without a single scrap of empirical experience to back the opinion up, and that's just frigging annoying as all hell.
Hey, just trying to get in as many as I can before they're outlawed.
And there are inanimate bricks lying under a bridge in the outskirts of Rio that knew I wasn't talking about the schools in the book.
ObDuh: Duh!
As I *said*, how about a ***pilot*** program. You know... TRY IT OUT instead of making ideological prejudgements based on scare tactics of subliminal advertising and other urban myths? Can we at least TRY and be scientific by running an experiment?
Personally I think it would backfire though and people would just become hardened to the ads.
Do you have a actual factual basis for this conclusion other than "business = evil"?
Can people not set aside their political prejudices once in a while so we can actually try something new? This is actually the main problem facing this country these days. If a solution can be shown to not be 100% perfect, it gets tossed away even if the new solution is 80% effective versus the 40% effectiveness of the incumbent system. It's madness.
Gee, I dunno... could School(TM) really be worse than School(Govt-Spec-12-5129-00917)?
How about a pilot program?
Earlier this year my Exceed xterms stopped running my .login script when I login even though nothing changed on *my* end. No one seems to be able to explain this.
Oh, what the hell... I'll send them some e-flowers or something. Maybe then they'll tell me how to run the new version of FPGA Compiler, or get my .cshrc working consistently so I don't get the ^H^H^H^H^H effect every third login.
Uh, no, because no one actually saw the movie Wild Wild West, speaking of what people are seeing.
http://imdb.com/title/tt0083197/
He's not a doctor, but he played one in the moovies.
Well that was weak, AC. You have to do better than that to be worthy of a Birdman Smackdown. Keep trying.
Yes, both given the oppurtunity to exist thanks to Capitalism. Remember to follow your logic *all* the way through, kids, or wind up looking like a jackass.
Capitalism is an idea... nothing more.
Wow! Thanks for newsflash, Mr. Cronkite.
There are other ideas, some better,
In theory.
some worse.
In practice.
Just because we have Capitalism doesn't mean it's the best idea or the only way.
So come up with something new. Toss the centralized economies into the dustbin of history where they belong and come up with something NEW! I'll listen to something fresh. Honestly.
And you talk about faulty logic. For shame.
Ah. You wound me, sir. Oh, no, wait, that "logic" was *your* strawmen. Never mind.
AUGH! Car/computer analogy! Kill it! Get the pipe-carrying homeboy! Get it! WHAM! WHAM! WHAM!
Don't have any answers to the tough questions, do you? Just mod them away and continue to advocate blah blah blah. Fascists, the lot of you! Facists, I say!!!
Blah, blah, blah, Cleetus. I could list the dirty laundry of whatever system that makes you cream in your jeans. It's pointless, and the activity of empty-headed ideologues with no substance.
As for the internet, thank God that TCP/IP is basically public domain and not "owned" by something like M$ or SCO or some other evil capitalist organization.
*sigh* Another prissy fool who has no concept of what real evil is. Is it any wonder I want to move to the Moon. This is most of humanity, folks. If not now then in a very few years. Little singularities of monochromatic politics with worldviews composed entirely of lies and mythology. Go see I, Robot and replace the robots with people. That's the future.
And your depiction of Korea as a "primitive place?" ROTFL.
Uh, no. I never called Korea a primitve place, you illiterate dumbass from the Fifth Circle Of Hell. If you're going to blast a load of ideological diarrhea over what I said, at least make it something I really said, toots. I impled that the original poster was calling the USA primitve because we needed to "modernize our nation", and then I had some fun with it. DO try to keep up with the key changes, Pogo.
I've lived in Korea (and Japan, etc.)and also had the misfortune to visit the USA. At least in those "primitive states", I didn't have to worry about some idiot pulling out a gun, with or without provocation, training, etc.
*snore* So stay away. We already have our fair share of stupid, ignorant ideological mental pygmies without you adding to their inane blather. But I guess that's the beauty of the internet, eh? You can take your mentally vacuous shit into the public discourse from anywhere in the world. I hope you remembered to wipe.
Of course crime rates in South Korea and Japan have been rising for years, but, hey, who cares about facts in the mythological tapestry you call your perception of reality?
And people wonder why Americans are considered arrogant, ignorant, etc. Americans would do well to keep their mouths closed, their ears and eyes open, and travel more, rather than blustering about in their usual arrogant, gun-at-the-hip, ego-mode-engaged blunderings.
And here comes the bigotry and stereotyping. Typical. Sad. OK, here's another stereotype. Maybe we don't travel much because all we find out there is a lot of hypocritical, holier-than-thou uber-assholes living in homes of shattered glass who can't recognize prime bullshit when it's dropped in a steaming pile directly on their heads.
I leave you with the words of a great American, Mark Twain:
"Sir, you are a complte and utter dumbass of the lowest order. If you cared one whit about the destiny of the free nations of the planet Earth, you would do well to immediately log off your electro-computing device, make a quick and efficient trip to your kitchen, grab your sharpest cutting implement, and proceed to slit both wrists so that your life juices may fall to the floor and thus extinguish your useless existence, and save the public at large some small but measureable amount of blithering madness."
Well, I'm paraphrasing heavily ;-) It was from the original author's note to Huck Finn. Wait... maybe it was Piers Anthony in his 207th Xanth novel. Hmmm...
OK, I'm done with you.
Does Vinge's singuarity occur? Does the whole thing become artificially aware? Will some kid in Ulan Bator confer with some kid in Muncie and a grad student in New Dehli, and invent the nanoforge? Will my online bill paying take 4.2 minutes instead of 4.4 minutes? Will life seem happier and grander and just plain smell better?
No, I'm not a Luddite (as the word is commonly misused), but neither do I advoicate tech for tech's sake beyond my own gadget fetish.
Example: We keep pouring laptops into schools. Is that accomplishing anything? It's difficult to find any sort of tracking data that shows throwing computers at the education problem is any more effective than throwing more money. Yeah, you can email homework and automate a lot of stuff, but are test scores improving more than one standard deviation of the data noise?
What I *can* find is polls that claim many people don't care about having broadband. I see this myself amongst the many tech professionals with whom I work. They really don't need that much bandwidth at home, and many only went to DSL or cable to free up the phone line.
But, hey, I'm open minded (really!). Why is the expansion of broadband so important that we need to spend precious public funds to do it, and not just let the adoption grow at the pace the market desires?
Yes, because Canada is smaller which is what the original poster SAID. You forget Canadians are all huddled together in the lower regions (I guess so they can snuggle up to the USA. They just love us there, you know). Like, 97% of Canada is barren wasteland inhabited only by mastadons and saber tooth rabbits. I saw it on Ren & Stimpy so I know it's true.
It has just not been important for the US govt that this get done, and to the telcos either, that are always too shortsighted. So now other countries have leaped ahead.
No, because the other country's have less to do to modernize. Why is this so hard to accept over Byzantine corpo-governmental flim flam?
There is no excuse for it really, rather than corporate and govt bungling. The US has by far the highest p/c GDP of any of these countries, and is certainly rich enough to pay for it if they wanted (heck, the money used in Iraq up to now would have paid for it a dozen times over...)
Or a simple lack of market demand, which has been shown in poll after poll. But, hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good ideo-rant.
So its not about density, or 'too expensive'.. Just the people in the power to make change don't care to do anything about it...
Well, no, it *is* about density and size, and about consumers not really giving a crap about it.
If this is what passes for critical thinking these days, then I HOPE Bush gets us to the Moon, because that's where I want to live. And I'm not sure a quarter million miles of vacuum is enough to insulate such exotoxic bumblethink.
So tell your bitch to step up to the plate and buy some broadband access. Why should my taxes support you and your bint's video masturbation sessions?
I recently saw a 1.5 Mbps line referred to as "shitty" by a Japanese blogger.
I once read a blog where a grown man admitted to liking Britney Spears' music. You can find many strange and grotesque things in blogs.
So what was the context? Was he comparing it to his connection at work? Was he exaggerating the difference between 1.5Mbps and 3.0Mbps? You can't just toss out an isolated quips without context. Who are you? Michael Moore?
In America, that's supposedly pretty fast for a consumer. We need to look to countries like S. Korea for inspiration, stop trying to milk money out of customers by capping uploads and such, and just modernize our damn nation.
Yeah, the birthplace of the Internet is really existing in such a primitive state, isn't it, just because it's failing to meet some arbitrary metic you have a persoanl boner for? Why I was telling the local serfs the other day as we were out collecting filth for the solstice festival (with human sacrifice) just how backward our sad but proud nation was compared to the glory of the all them Other Lands. Then some Visigoths showed up and the conversation moved to other topics.
The real problem, if it *is* a problem, is that many people don't give a tinker's cuss about broadband into their home. I know many professional people, quite a few in the high tech fields, who don't really care about multi-megabit home access. Most went for the lowest tier of cable and DSL primarily to free up the phone line.
I know the ideo-filtration in your brain can never accept this, but it's capitalism that allows you to live your comfortable little life of video-conferenced skanks and happy Slashdot access.
Wow. You must have, like, a bazillion nerve endings in your palm!
Hey, don't knock it. Thanks to my loyalty card, I get free bagels every other week. :-)
Using "dead-tree" is getting old.
Did you try Super Mario Sunshine? Again, you have complete camera control. Very challenging game when you get into it.
Tactical RPGs are usually good, too, for the working gamer. You can fight a single battle and save.
Almost as bad as the quadruple fire pillar jump in the first Tomb Raider. A very tricky area- probably hardest in the game. One error, and you got sent back to, like, the previous continent and had to run all the way back, and by the time you got there, you forgot what you needed to do differently. I finally did it after about 30 tries, but it wasn't a sense of accomplishment I felt.
Write the program perfectly the first time.