Unless of course you're given a corporate apartment for 8 hours a day to sleep in shifts.
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on
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· Score: 3, Insightful
Working since 2000 to bring you news of how badly programmers are treated!
Still, in reality, is this any different than Norm Matloff's reports saying exactly the same thing over the past 5 years? And does anybody REALLY have any doubt that guest worker programs are just ways to lower wages in a given industry?
The exact same method was used to break up the California Agriculture Worker's Union back in the 1970s- and will continue to be used.
1. I never claimed to have "style". I'm autistic, and I never really understood what style is let alone how to have any.
2. I'm actually working 45 hours a week, how about you?
3. I actually like white on blue text- it's the only thing that doesn't trigger migraines for me. The site you linked to or here on slashdot is what I consider hard to look at, but ugly isn't a word that is within my understanding.
4. The Anticyberterrrorism toolkit is a collection of freeware and shareware applications that I've found usefull in battling cyberterrorism: spyware, spam, and viruses.
5. I'll take your ideas into account the next time I mess with that site.
6. The reason for the separate link to HijackThis is due to the fact that is my primary tool for phone-based long-distance spyware removal. It's usually downloaded by somebody on a dial-up line, who can't download AVG or Adaware without crashing multiple times due to crappy phone lines. Perhaps you live in a world of 100% broadband connections, but here in Oregon we simply don't, and likely never will.
Thanks- I hadn't done either of these in years, and since I'm in a relatively new ( Another fun one that I've never attempted simply because I don't have the graphics skillset for it, nor recent languages strong in graphics primatives, is the STTNG User Interface- the three-to-four pane touchscreen that has a title, a menu on the left, a text section, and a picture section (with the last two resizeable). That would be an excellent way to learn a new WIMP environment...
Seriously - you're marketing web design skills with a site that looks like a smurf puked on it.
Actually, I'm mainly (with that page at least) marketing spyware removal, virus removal, hardware and software setup, and LAN Parties...
I've only had one web design job in 10 years, and I'm not terribly good at it, I should remove any mention of that from that page.
And it still is (as far as I'm concerned). However, "low bandwidth" does not mean "ugly as sin." Get rid of the table, convert the page to valid HTML4.01, and sprinkle a little CSS - size will be almost identical. Replace that 256-color gif-converted-to-jpeg with a full 24-bit jpeg, and it will not only look nicer, but be smaller as well.
Agreed on the rest- and someday I might go ahead and do that (that page is about 5 years old now). But on the 24-bit JPEG; I originally had one up, but it was dithered all to heck on certain NON-MICROSOFT browsers and video cards, thus applying the websafe palette instead. When you're going for people who haven't updated their computers since 1992 as customers, well, it doesn't always pay to go flashy.
I agree with the other AC reply to your post. When I get a resume with 50 languages in it, I toss it immediately, no longer bothering to think, "Well, does this person know any of these well?"
That's why I long ago started tailoring each resume to *only* the languages that I know well and are in the job description- no more. Who gives a rip that I happen to know that the add instrution on a Verifone is not communitive? Nobody codes for verifones anymore.
You say 'narrow and deep' but I see "wide and shallow." I have worked with dozens of coders in the past, and the ones who are always trying out a new language every week tend to be the worst of the bunch. Sure they have done 50 small projects in 50 languages, but each and every one of those projects is a shitpile and puts strain on future maintainers because they are hacky first attempts at the language. 42 languages reeks of padding and bullshit. Craft you resume to the job and take all the irrelevant stuff out. Or summarize it with "working knowledge of several other languages."
I don't even summarize it anymore. I even take out any project not directly related to the job I'm applying for because of this type of bigotry. But since I don't interview well, it doesn't matter much. So what that I can edit the EXE at a hexadecimal level, or that I understand compilers so well that I know the reason why, in Microsoft compilers, you should comment out the variable on next statements? Nobody cares about that anymore- they care more about "maintainability" than saving memory or actual engineering. If that's what you want from a coder- only knowing a single language, always coding to spec regardless of whether it's efficient or right code- then I'm convinced that you'd be better off shipping your project offshore.
Anybody who's been to Oregon Institute of Technology knows how to learn a language in a weekend- and Hello World has NOTHING to do with it.
My favorite is writing text editors and calculators.
Take your website for example; it looks terrible, is poorly organized and uses HTML that is long out of date.
Maybe to you- but to the people that website is marketed to, it does a lot with very little bandwidth, which *used* to be a key in web design (and damn well still should be).
Add up the facts that you admittedly have poor communication skills and no skills outside of coding "Hello World" applications, what exactly are you expecting?
You're the one who mentioned "Hello world"- currently I'm on contract to ODOT working on a team doing a.NET client-server program to keep track of civil rights information for 6000 contractors statewide. But what I was expecting was actual techies (that is, people who can see past *appearances* to reality) doing hiring, instead of idiots. I no longer expect that- in fact, I no longer expect anything. Coding is now a job better done in Bangalore or Hydrabad at $2.50/hr. If you want software engineering, flow charts, and the ability to make the machine do REAL things deeper down than the user interface layer, hire me. If you want flash and coding to spec- go there. In no way should any American be going for a career in "programming" in this day and age- it's not worth it.
Theories from one language indeed can apply to another, but the nuances and awareness of an entire framework and what works "well" versus what "works" are what seperates the wheat from the chaff.
True enough- but that alone offers a gret way to turn chaff into wheat. *Offer training*. Don't just assume because some guy has.NET and Java on his resume that he either knows the entire framework OR the subset your company is using. But any good programmer is also good at *learning* or they wouldn't be a good programmer to begin with; so use that to your advantage.
10 years of experience and 42 languages is not a paper thin skill set. It's just a highly disrespected one.
OTOH, you are correct in many ways- I don't interview well, I have no skills outside of coding (so while not paper thin, as deep and NARROW as a mineshaft). It doesn't help that most of my languages aquired since college have been in response to immediate on the job need- which limits one's ability to explore a language.
So, I suppose I agree that coders are a dime a dozen if you're looking for an idiot that doesn't even understand the difference between "a == b" and "a.equals(b)", but if you're looking for competent programmers, they're tough to find at any price.
And given the Ask Slashdot that this is in, which do YOU think a guy who's spent the last 20 years doing tech support is going to be? Competent programers- what you're looking for is software engineers. A decent programer in a given language isn't going to know the difference between those two- I do, but hang it up, you're not looking for a mere code monkey.
Actually, if I were you, I'd contact some of the new guilds and unions- and unionize your shop. Anybody smart enough to be your kind of "competent programmer" is probably a bit gun shy by now- or has moved to a much more stable career like truck driving. If you can't treat people like human beings who have lives, and have had a historic cycle of laying people off every 2-6 years, why would anybody smart enough to be a "competent programmer" want to work for you? Give them some REAL guarantees- like 2 years salary banked ahead of time as a bit of a golden parachute that they get if terminated for *any* reason, continuing education oportunities, flex time, and a health care/gym system that allows them to continue coding while walking on the treadmill, and you just *might* be able to attract the PHD's and Master's degree holders that haven't been working in the past 4 years.
Well, considering that nobody learned.NET because it came out just as the.bomb bust came and companies were outsourcing to India like crazy- I'd say what they need to do is look in Bangalore or Hydarabad. Either that- or start offering training again...
Don't. Or at least, not as resume fodder or in an attempt to make a living. Coders are a dime a dozen these days.
However, I agree it could help you in other areas if you understood more- but don't go for it from a business or career standpoint. Pick your favorite form of art: drawing, music, animation. Once you have one of those three, pick your favorite artist: a painter, a composer, an animator. Then pick a language that has strong instructions in that arena, or a library you can take advantage of- graphical primatives (all the better if they use Hexadecimal in some form), sound instructions (polyphonic if you can find it), Sprites or large memory move instructions of some sort that can access video.
Once you've found your art, and your language, I suggest reading Godel, Escher, and Bach, the Eternal Golden Braid along with the reference manual for your language. This will give you mini projects that are very visually or audually responsive. From there, you can move on to Boolean math, game theory, and expert systems. After that, you can get into methodologies, though object oriented design might be a good help from the begining, it isn't the only methodology out there.
But most of all- make it fun for YOU, rather than a chore.
The radio coming out was no problem at all- the theives took care of that for me. But getting access to the wiring behind the radio to find out why none of the power wires actually have power anymore- that's the question. I'll have to remove the whole panel for that- it's a 1999 Ford Escort with the funny round panel that contained the radio and the air conditioning controls.
Doesn't help because I've never read stephenson. My best guess- it's a failed attempt at an insult that makes the insulter look stupid, superficial, and possessing of a rather low IQ. In other words, an idiot.
Still don't understand the usage- unless you're trying to insult me, in which case you're completely failing because of your idiotic useage of the language.
Actually, that's what confused me as to the usage. People don't look like penises to me, and a person using an electronic device of any sort even less so. When was the last time YOUR penis used an IPAQ?
As a complete aside: if you really are a Marxist, you're the first entrepreneurial Marxist I've ever met.
That's because Marxism is just a start- an ideal to reach for. His practical ideas sucked rocks- and probably weren't even possible until VERY recently (Wal*Mart is begining to make use of them, although not for the idealistic reasons he proposed, but rather to make just-in-time manufacturing work across a huge distribution chain).
I'm more of a distributist- both socialism and capitalism work better in SMALL doses anyway.
What about somebody who uses their PDA to work a 2nd job while commuting to be able to pay the bills because their first employer isn't paying them for the commute?
What about the guy who uses his PDA entirely as entertainment- because it's got a much better screen than the IPOD?
What about the guy who uses his PDA to do charity work?
That's just three examples- among many- of uses for a PDA other than what you describe. But what you're really talking about is appearances- note the 2nd word in my handle. I don't accept mere appearances as a reason to buy underpowered hardware when you can get more functionality for the same money.
My IPAQ doesn't weigh a pound- in fact, most IPODs weigh more. But I'm more interested in your use of language. What does "look like a total tool" mean? Can you explain it in terms that somebody from 1950 can read and understand? If not, then I have to dismiss that as mere fad, and only idiots go for fads.
What carpool? I don't drive to work, well, not more than a mile to the light rail station anyway. Walk the rest of the way. TCMP helps on the train- I watch TV on it, recorded the night before with Beyond TV.
Pretty much what I did do when the fuckwit broke into my car and stole the stereo. One of these days, I'm going to have to get a Ford car hardware hacker to show me how to remove the central dash panel so that I can wire it all in correctly and not use batteries and inverters anymore.
My method was just a pair of amplified computer speakers, plugged into an inverter and into the media playing device (which in my case is now the amazingly good "The Core Media Player" running on an IPAQ- does everything the link in the summary does and then some thanks to also having iGuidance, a 2 GB Hitachi CF Format Hard drive, and a bluetooth GPS unit, for a lot less cost). I believe that media player plays OGG, or at least, you can install a codec for it.
I'm in an area of the country where we're moving away from coal and gas fired power plants, towards the significantly cleaner hydro, wind, and nuclear options (there's even talk about redesigning and reopening Trojan as a pebble bed reactor- and bringing *back* the old waste shipped up the river to Hanford, back down the river to Trojan as fuel). But I have a tendency to like true hybrid options not for environmental reasons, but for cost and national security reasons. Right now, 90% of my driving is less than two miles a day- a tank of gas in a true plug-in hybrid would last me a couple of months. Due to fewer working parts (a three or four cylinder generator engine is a hell of a lot simpler than a big V8, and an electric motor is WAY simpler than any gas) TCO money might be saved enough even for me to sign up for my electric company's "Clean Wind" option- paying 2 cents a KWH and $5/month more, but guaranteeing that all the electricity I use goes to pay for more windfarms to cover the generation of that electricity.
Slashdot Mirror
Unless of course you're given a corporate apartment for 8 hours a day to sleep in shifts.
Working since 2000 to bring you news of how badly programmers are treated!
Still, in reality, is this any different than Norm Matloff's reports saying exactly the same thing over the past 5 years? And does anybody REALLY have any doubt that guest worker programs are just ways to lower wages in a given industry?
The exact same method was used to break up the California Agriculture Worker's Union back in the 1970s- and will continue to be used.
In 500 years, you've got a 100% chance of being struck by a bus.
That's GOT to produce some really rotten ping times.....unless it goes only to Hawaii.
1. I never claimed to have "style". I'm autistic, and I never really understood what style is let alone how to have any.
2. I'm actually working 45 hours a week, how about you?
3. I actually like white on blue text- it's the only thing that doesn't trigger migraines for me. The site you linked to or here on slashdot is what I consider hard to look at, but ugly isn't a word that is within my understanding.
4. The Anticyberterrrorism toolkit is a collection of freeware and shareware applications that I've found usefull in battling cyberterrorism: spyware, spam, and viruses.
5. I'll take your ideas into account the next time I mess with that site.
6. The reason for the separate link to HijackThis is due to the fact that is my primary tool for phone-based long-distance spyware removal. It's usually downloaded by somebody on a dial-up line, who can't download AVG or Adaware without crashing multiple times due to crappy phone lines. Perhaps you live in a world of 100% broadband connections, but here in Oregon we simply don't, and likely never will.
Thanks- I hadn't done either of these in years, and since I'm in a relatively new (
Another fun one that I've never attempted simply because I don't have the graphics skillset for it, nor recent languages strong in graphics primatives, is the STTNG User Interface- the three-to-four pane touchscreen that has a title, a menu on the left, a text section, and a picture section (with the last two resizeable). That would be an excellent way to learn a new WIMP environment...
Seriously - you're marketing web design skills with a site that looks like a smurf puked on it.
Actually, I'm mainly (with that page at least) marketing spyware removal, virus removal, hardware and software setup, and LAN Parties...
I've only had one web design job in 10 years, and I'm not terribly good at it, I should remove any mention of that from that page.
And it still is (as far as I'm concerned). However, "low bandwidth" does not mean "ugly as sin." Get rid of the table, convert the page to valid HTML4.01, and sprinkle a little CSS - size will be almost identical. Replace that 256-color gif-converted-to-jpeg with a full 24-bit jpeg, and it will not only look nicer, but be smaller as well.
Agreed on the rest- and someday I might go ahead and do that (that page is about 5 years old now). But on the 24-bit JPEG; I originally had one up, but it was dithered all to heck on certain NON-MICROSOFT browsers and video cards, thus applying the websafe palette instead. When you're going for people who haven't updated their computers since 1992 as customers, well, it doesn't always pay to go flashy.
I agree with the other AC reply to your post. When I get a resume with 50 languages in it, I toss it immediately, no longer bothering to think, "Well, does this person know any of these well?"
That's why I long ago started tailoring each resume to *only* the languages that I know well and are in the job description- no more. Who gives a rip that I happen to know that the add instrution on a Verifone is not communitive? Nobody codes for verifones anymore.
You say 'narrow and deep' but I see "wide and shallow." I have worked with dozens of coders in the past, and the ones who are always trying out a new language every week tend to be the worst of the bunch. Sure they have done 50 small projects in 50 languages, but each and every one of those projects is a shitpile and puts strain on future maintainers because they are hacky first attempts at the language. 42 languages reeks of padding and bullshit. Craft you resume to the job and take all the irrelevant stuff out. Or summarize it with "working knowledge of several other languages."
I don't even summarize it anymore. I even take out any project not directly related to the job I'm applying for because of this type of bigotry. But since I don't interview well, it doesn't matter much. So what that I can edit the EXE at a hexadecimal level, or that I understand compilers so well that I know the reason why, in Microsoft compilers, you should comment out the variable on next statements? Nobody cares about that anymore- they care more about "maintainability" than saving memory or actual engineering. If that's what you want from a coder- only knowing a single language, always coding to spec regardless of whether it's efficient or right code- then I'm convinced that you'd be better off shipping your project offshore.
Anybody who's been to Oregon Institute of Technology knows how to learn a language in a weekend- and Hello World has NOTHING to do with it.
.NET client-server program to keep track of civil rights information for 6000 contractors statewide. But what I was expecting was actual techies (that is, people who can see past *appearances* to reality) doing hiring, instead of idiots. I no longer expect that- in fact, I no longer expect anything. Coding is now a job better done in Bangalore or Hydrabad at $2.50/hr. If you want software engineering, flow charts, and the ability to make the machine do REAL things deeper down than the user interface layer, hire me. If you want flash and coding to spec- go there. In no way should any American be going for a career in "programming" in this day and age- it's not worth it.
My favorite is writing text editors and calculators.
Take your website for example; it looks terrible, is poorly organized and uses HTML that is long out of date.
Maybe to you- but to the people that website is marketed to, it does a lot with very little bandwidth, which *used* to be a key in web design (and damn well still should be).
Add up the facts that you admittedly have poor communication skills and no skills outside of coding "Hello World" applications, what exactly are you expecting?
You're the one who mentioned "Hello world"- currently I'm on contract to ODOT working on a team doing a
Theories from one language indeed can apply to another, but the nuances and awareness of an entire framework and what works "well" versus what "works" are what seperates the wheat from the chaff.
.NET and Java on his resume that he either knows the entire framework OR the subset your company is using. But any good programmer is also good at *learning* or they wouldn't be a good programmer to begin with; so use that to your advantage.
True enough- but that alone offers a gret way to turn chaff into wheat. *Offer training*. Don't just assume because some guy has
10 years of experience and 42 languages is not a paper thin skill set. It's just a highly disrespected one.
OTOH, you are correct in many ways- I don't interview well, I have no skills outside of coding (so while not paper thin, as deep and NARROW as a mineshaft). It doesn't help that most of my languages aquired since college have been in response to immediate on the job need- which limits one's ability to explore a language.
So, I suppose I agree that coders are a dime a dozen if you're looking for an idiot that doesn't even understand the difference between "a == b" and "a.equals(b)", but if you're looking for competent programmers, they're tough to find at any price.
And given the Ask Slashdot that this is in, which do YOU think a guy who's spent the last 20 years doing tech support is going to be? Competent programers- what you're looking for is software engineers. A decent programer in a given language isn't going to know the difference between those two- I do, but hang it up, you're not looking for a mere code monkey.
Actually, if I were you, I'd contact some of the new guilds and unions- and unionize your shop. Anybody smart enough to be your kind of "competent programmer" is probably a bit gun shy by now- or has moved to a much more stable career like truck driving. If you can't treat people like human beings who have lives, and have had a historic cycle of laying people off every 2-6 years, why would anybody smart enough to be a "competent programmer" want to work for you? Give them some REAL guarantees- like 2 years salary banked ahead of time as a bit of a golden parachute that they get if terminated for *any* reason, continuing education oportunities, flex time, and a health care/gym system that allows them to continue coding while walking on the treadmill, and you just *might* be able to attract the PHD's and Master's degree holders that haven't been working in the past 4 years.
Well, considering that nobody learned .NET because it came out just as the .bomb bust came and companies were outsourcing to India like crazy- I'd say what they need to do is look in Bangalore or Hydarabad. Either that- or start offering training again...
Don't. Or at least, not as resume fodder or in an attempt to make a living. Coders are a dime a dozen these days.
However, I agree it could help you in other areas if you understood more- but don't go for it from a business or career standpoint. Pick your favorite form of art: drawing, music, animation. Once you have one of those three, pick your favorite artist: a painter, a composer, an animator. Then pick a language that has strong instructions in that arena, or a library you can take advantage of- graphical primatives (all the better if they use Hexadecimal in some form), sound instructions (polyphonic if you can find it), Sprites or large memory move instructions of some sort that can access video.
Once you've found your art, and your language, I suggest reading Godel, Escher, and Bach, the Eternal Golden Braid along with the reference manual for your language. This will give you mini projects that are very visually or audually responsive. From there, you can move on to Boolean math, game theory, and expert systems. After that, you can get into methodologies, though object oriented design might be a good help from the begining, it isn't the only methodology out there.
But most of all- make it fun for YOU, rather than a chore.
The radio coming out was no problem at all- the theives took care of that for me. But getting access to the wiring behind the radio to find out why none of the power wires actually have power anymore- that's the question. I'll have to remove the whole panel for that- it's a 1999 Ford Escort with the funny round panel that contained the radio and the air conditioning controls.
Doesn't help because I've never read stephenson. My best guess- it's a failed attempt at an insult that makes the insulter look stupid, superficial, and possessing of a rather low IQ. In other words, an idiot.
Still don't understand the usage- unless you're trying to insult me, in which case you're completely failing because of your idiotic useage of the language.
Actually, that's what confused me as to the usage. People don't look like penises to me, and a person using an electronic device of any sort even less so. When was the last time YOUR penis used an IPAQ?
As a complete aside: if you really are a Marxist, you're the first entrepreneurial Marxist I've ever met.
That's because Marxism is just a start- an ideal to reach for. His practical ideas sucked rocks- and probably weren't even possible until VERY recently (Wal*Mart is begining to make use of them, although not for the idealistic reasons he proposed, but rather to make just-in-time manufacturing work across a huge distribution chain).
I'm more of a distributist- both socialism and capitalism work better in SMALL doses anyway.
What about somebody who uses their PDA to work a 2nd job while commuting to be able to pay the bills because their first employer isn't paying them for the commute?
What about the guy who uses his PDA entirely as entertainment- because it's got a much better screen than the IPOD?
What about the guy who uses his PDA to do charity work?
That's just three examples- among many- of uses for a PDA other than what you describe. But what you're really talking about is appearances- note the 2nd word in my handle. I don't accept mere appearances as a reason to buy underpowered hardware when you can get more functionality for the same money.
My IPAQ doesn't weigh a pound- in fact, most IPODs weigh more. But I'm more interested in your use of language. What does "look like a total tool" mean? Can you explain it in terms that somebody from 1950 can read and understand? If not, then I have to dismiss that as mere fad, and only idiots go for fads.
What carpool? I don't drive to work, well, not more than a mile to the light rail station anyway. Walk the rest of the way. TCMP helps on the train- I watch TV on it, recorded the night before with Beyond TV.
Pretty much what I did do when the fuckwit broke into my car and stole the stereo. One of these days, I'm going to have to get a Ford car hardware hacker to show me how to remove the central dash panel so that I can wire it all in correctly and not use batteries and inverters anymore.
My method was just a pair of amplified computer speakers, plugged into an inverter and into the media playing device (which in my case is now the amazingly good "The Core Media Player" running on an IPAQ- does everything the link in the summary does and then some thanks to also having iGuidance, a 2 GB Hitachi CF Format Hard drive, and a bluetooth GPS unit, for a lot less cost). I believe that media player plays OGG, or at least, you can install a codec for it.
I'm in an area of the country where we're moving away from coal and gas fired power plants, towards the significantly cleaner hydro, wind, and nuclear options (there's even talk about redesigning and reopening Trojan as a pebble bed reactor- and bringing *back* the old waste shipped up the river to Hanford, back down the river to Trojan as fuel). But I have a tendency to like true hybrid options not for environmental reasons, but for cost and national security reasons. Right now, 90% of my driving is less than two miles a day- a tank of gas in a true plug-in hybrid would last me a couple of months. Due to fewer working parts (a three or four cylinder generator engine is a hell of a lot simpler than a big V8, and an electric motor is WAY simpler than any gas) TCO money might be saved enough even for me to sign up for my electric company's "Clean Wind" option- paying 2 cents a KWH and $5/month more, but guaranteeing that all the electricity I use goes to pay for more windfarms to cover the generation of that electricity.