I'd imagine that cleanup costs are included to the extent that the vendors of the related energy sources are required to pay for such cleanup.
And given the immediate gutting of the environmental laws that came with Bush's second term (already working it's way through Congress, sure to pass and get signed into law) the level of that extent is entirely nil.
What I don't understand is why Green Mountain doesn't offer a energy-co-location plan; of the sort that you pay for the generating capacity you want from their wind farm, and any excess energy that you don't use is sold on the open market to offset the cost of your yearly maintenance fee for your equipment + rent on the wind farm. Seems to me that would cut the cost way down- maybe even undercut the 9.6 cpkwh floor of traditional energy generation.
A better explaination: In the past, people counted ages by months instead of years. Adjust as needed. That would give 83 1/3rd as the age of Methuselah.
The Bible is based on a lunar calendar and filled-hand based counting system; at most Methusaleh lived to be 86 when you take the calculations for that into account.
Worse yet, modern acturial tables show that you've got a 1:500 chance of being struck and killed by a moving vehicle in any given year- which gives a theoretical limit of about half the 1000 year limit given.
Re:There's a preventive vaccine already
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('Twas an interesting discussion; I hope you think likewise).
I do indeed- which is why it always amazes me that the conservatives react to me like bmeztler did yesterday....posting a JE getting mad merely because I had failed to answer a point of his.
Re:There's a preventive vaccine already
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(That said, there's an underlying point which is perhaps what you were getting at -- if no animal engages in sexual activity with intent to reproduce, because of lack of knowledge of said consequence, what makes the bonobo's actions any different? I'd argue that the bonobo's activities are different because the underlying cause (referring not to the intent of the animals, but the "invisible hand" -- evolutionary forces, $DEITY, or what-have-you) behind their behaviour is obviously resulting in said behaviour occuring despite its inability to result in reproduction occurring. This is obviously not literal intent on the part of the individual bonobo, but I'd argue that it's a form of (2nd-level?) "intent" nonetheless.
Ah, but unfortuneately, the same thing that applies AGAINST my arguing from "God told us not to so we shouldn't do it" in the case of sexual activity also applies here- we cannot know the mind of God. Plus- if (as all appearances from evidence that we do know about) it is correct to say that God's method is evolutionary trial and error (from the idea that science is what gives us insight into the mind of God and God's true intentions) what is to prevent the bonobo's actions from being part of the error (and by extension, all of mankind's sexual perversions from being part of the error as well, since they all showed up long after we gained enough intelligence to start messing with evolution of our own species by growing food and letting the weak survive)?
With this long of voting, it's damned hard to call the state before the last hour or so of voting. NOTHING was called in Oregon, not even local races, before the last hour of voting, and even then, close races like Measure 35 were called both ways for a few days afterward. So no- that factor doesn't affect this.
How is pointing out a specific failure of voting machines in Florida offtopic? Flamebait I can see- but offtopic to a discussion of elections in Florida?
Re:There's a preventive vaccine already
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Unless you're arguing that anticipation or expectation are inherently capable of being experienced only by sentient beings (using one of the more restrictive definitions of sentience)?
I'd go even further than sentience- and say that this form of intent (anticipation and expectation of long-term results, after all, most hominids and primates experience gestation periods of MONTHS between sex and the child showing up) requires the specific abilities of time awareness and story telling- without which the cause-effect nature of sex and childbirth is not immediately apparent to anybody.
Close- but I was also thinking more something with a ROM-based operating system, more like This with a bluetooth keyboard addon. Same specs though when it comes to drop, water & dust intrusion, etc.
Re:There's a preventive vaccine already
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Bonobos frequently engage in sexual activity innately incapable of resulting in reproduction -- something which allows presence or lack of "intent" (in at least some sense of the word) to be inferred.
Yeah- but I bet the bonobos don't know that- they just think it's fun and fullfills their instinct. No REAL intent there besides what the bonobo-watchers anthromorphize into the behavior.
He could get This one. IIRC- Behemoth II had Mac, Linux, PC, Solaris boxes, as well as a ham radio, GPS, nifty heads-up water-cooled wearable monitor, cell phone, dockable laptop, batteries, and a lot of solar panels. "Only Too Heavy" indeed.
So far- that's all I've had to do with my 18-month-old entropy generator- once I set the screen saver passwords, he can bang all he wants to on the keyboard and it just goes "beep" after a while. He loves it. Later on, I'll be getting him something small and ruggedized.
Re:There's a preventive vaccine already
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Ah- that's more a case of personal preference than morals. I hated dating and now that I've had kids, see no point whatsoever in doing it again- even after my spouse's death. I've got better things to do with my time.
Re:There's a preventive vaccine already
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Having kids is ONE purpose of sex. Who says it isn't also supposed to be pleasureable?
Rather, it's pleasurable so that you will want to have kids; and want to stay together for the 18 years it takes to raise those kids. Thus the pleasure is part and parcel of sex being for the purpose of having kids.
Many types of animals have sex without intending to procreate, primates and other mammals primarily.
That's a funny line also- since only human beings have the ability to reason and thus the ability to intend anything at all.
Darwinist Theory or Creationist Theory, whichever one you choose humans have been on the planet a lot longer than millions of years. Its either 100,000 or 6,000. Take your pick.
Funny again- both the nubmers you quote- 100,000 years and 6,000 years- are a lot less than the 2 million given to the first "True human" upright walking fossils.....and you say that it is more. The point however is that your observations only really apply to agriculturalist societies- and not even all of them (I see no point, for instance, in having yet another illogical female in my life)- since agriculture has only been around, at most, for 10,000 years. BTW, that's where the Creationist Theory comes from- they assume that the only true human beings ARE the agriculturalists- and thus they start counting time from the Agricultural Grouping of the Fertile Valley Crescent, which was indeed 6000 years ago. Cain didn't kill Abel out of jealousy- Cain killed Abel so that he could farm the meadows, just as the farmers in Brazil are killing off the natives so that they can farm the jungle today.
Re:There's a preventive vaccine already
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I don't base my beliefs on the Kinsey reports at all. You're the one who brought them up. There are many sources on sexual behaviour other than what Kinsey found out.
And yet- all of them seem equally biased to behavior in certain sub-cultures and avoid even looking at the several centuries before.
The media doesn't force anyone to have sex. Displaying sex and forcing people to have it are two different things. One is entertainment and the other is rape. It is unfortunate you can't differntiate between the two.
One is acutally PEER PRESSURE, and the other is rape. I see no difference between the two.
After that very short period of time
Yeah, the first two million years or so.
it became fashinonable to have a mistress. If you take the entire history of humanity into account there is more total time given to society prefering a virile male than a chaste one.
Actually, no- tribal society has a far longer history than your oppressive agricultural society.
So you and your wife only have sex when you want a child?
That's the purpose of sex.
Never for pleasure?
There are tons of more pleasurable, far more satisfying things to do with our time than sex. But only one way to have kids.
Oregon, as someone mentioned, has done vote by mail for quite a while but when my company was hired to do some work for some Oregon campaigns I found out that the information on who has or has not voted is published daily. The campaigners keep hounding the people who haven't voted yet.
What's downright sad is that many campaigners completely ignore this source of information as well- I kept getting "have you voted yet" calls for a full two weeks AFTER I voted- despite the fact that it wouldn't make a bit of difference and was a waste of my time AND theirs.
Actually, the bigger issue is not "voting for the winner," but voter discouragement when it looks like the candidate you WANT to win is behind. If you think your guy is going to lose anyway, why go out and vote?
Funny, I'd have the opposite reaction "hey he's losing, he NEEDS my vote more than ever".
I don't know what you're talking about. In Florida, only old people vote for George W. Bush.
You forgot also the busy people who voted for Kerry but didn't want to re-enter their vote 9 times.
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Are you 100% sure you are aware of the sexual mores of all of human history before the invention of the pill?
Yes, but it's funny that you go on to make my case for me.
Before the "pill" was invented women didn't have a lot of rights. If they were raped or coereced into having sex no one cared or listened. It was even worse the farther back you go. Men having mistresses is common all throughout history. Its not as if people were chaste beings simply because there was no pill around.
And yet- go far enough back in history you'll find that having a mistress meant having your head cut off. No tribal society put up with these sorts of sexual problems- because doing so was a threat to the survival of the entire tribe.
And that doesn't even touch on all the child molestation that went on before relatively recent laws and customs came about, not that it has stopped completely now either.
Marrying people off at 12 helped that issue- if you go back far enough. But you don't- you're just regurgitating the lies told about sex in school AFTER Kinsey's report.
So whether Kinsey's study was biased or not, most people do NOT desire or have the capability to live a chaste lifestyle.
And yet, if you take the rapists out of it, most do. After all, that's what you're basing all of your beliefs on- a sex report mainly taken from men in prison for rape and child molestation, not reality.
Advocating an unrealistic solution which is really akin to some BDSM related form of self denial isn't the wisest way to go when talking about preventing STDs.
Neither is trying to force everybody to have sex through the media and use of birth control that isn't 100% effective at preventing STDs. But you do it anyway. Why?
You should also clarify your definition of chastity. To most folks it means not having any sex at all but since you are married what it means is you only have sex with your wife.
I use the real definition, not some made up one. The real definition is using sex for procreation only- something my wife and I have agreed on (it's helped by the fact that we also co-sleep; hard to have sex when the 18-month-old is still in the family bed).
Re:great ....but there still a long road ahead
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Depravation by being a fat chick or a geek, is more where I was coming from.
Those too are choices on what is more important; knowledge or instant gratification- so I don't see why that makes a difference.
Re:great ....but there still a long road ahead
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Riiight... and as we all know, no married person has ever got AIDS from an infected partner.
Not when they married a partner who was equally inexperienced in sex, drugs, unsafe transfusions, etc. HIV is not atmospherically transmitted.
See the thing is, not only do you have to have "will power over biological functions," you also have to have a trustworthy partner. And maybe you do, maybe you don't, but you can never know for absolute certain.
I can know for morally certain- because I bothered to do background checks and blood tests *before* we got married. This stuff isn't entirely unknowable.
And wow, your claim to feel "sorry" side-by-side with your cavalier dismissal of the problem (not to mention the finger-pointing at the parents) ought to be a big help to those afflicted with a deadly disease! Thanks for the insight!
It's meant to help the people that they would otherwise infect. Unlike most human beings, I don't pretend that I can change the past, only the future. Those people are already dead- so let them die, they're less than 2% of the population anyway. Don't mistreat them- Cuba has the best idea on this isolating them from the general population and treating them like any other person otherwise.
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"Uncommon" is a social term, not a statistical term, so I'd say the second. But actually- since Kinsey's data is highly biased towards men in jail for rape and lonely rich housewives, ignoring most of the rest of society, there simply isn't any good data available on this topic at all.
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Odd, isn't it, that it only became uncommon *after* invention of the pill? It's been proven that Kinsey's study was highly biased, after all, despite the fact that it made everybody feel like they were all prudes.
Re:There's a preventive vaccine already
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Condoms prevent the spread of AIDS through rape, intravenous drug use, and blood transfusion how, exactly?
But the truth is- if you abstain from rape, intravenous drug use, unchecked blood transfusions and sex, there's only one other way to get HIV- by having a mother who didn't abstain from these items.
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I'd imagine that cleanup costs are included to the extent that the vendors of the related energy sources are required to pay for such cleanup.
And given the immediate gutting of the environmental laws that came with Bush's second term (already working it's way through Congress, sure to pass and get signed into law) the level of that extent is entirely nil.
What I don't understand is why Green Mountain doesn't offer a energy-co-location plan; of the sort that you pay for the generating capacity you want from their wind farm, and any excess energy that you don't use is sold on the open market to offset the cost of your yearly maintenance fee for your equipment + rent on the wind farm. Seems to me that would cut the cost way down- maybe even undercut the 9.6 cpkwh floor of traditional energy generation.
A better explaination: In the past, people counted ages by months instead of years. Adjust as needed. That would give 83 1/3rd as the age of Methuselah.
The Bible is based on a lunar calendar and filled-hand based counting system; at most Methusaleh lived to be 86 when you take the calculations for that into account.
Worse yet, modern acturial tables show that you've got a 1:500 chance of being struck and killed by a moving vehicle in any given year- which gives a theoretical limit of about half the 1000 year limit given.
('Twas an interesting discussion; I hope you think likewise).
I do indeed- which is why it always amazes me that the conservatives react to me like bmeztler did yesterday....posting a JE getting mad merely because I had failed to answer a point of his.
(That said, there's an underlying point which is perhaps what you were getting at -- if no animal engages in sexual activity with intent to reproduce, because of lack of knowledge of said consequence, what makes the bonobo's actions any different? I'd argue that the bonobo's activities are different because the underlying cause (referring not to the intent of the animals, but the "invisible hand" -- evolutionary forces, $DEITY, or what-have-you) behind their behaviour is obviously resulting in said behaviour occuring despite its inability to result in reproduction occurring. This is obviously not literal intent on the part of the individual bonobo, but I'd argue that it's a form of (2nd-level?) "intent" nonetheless.
Ah, but unfortuneately, the same thing that applies AGAINST my arguing from "God told us not to so we shouldn't do it" in the case of sexual activity also applies here- we cannot know the mind of God. Plus- if (as all appearances from evidence that we do know about) it is correct to say that God's method is evolutionary trial and error (from the idea that science is what gives us insight into the mind of God and God's true intentions) what is to prevent the bonobo's actions from being part of the error (and by extension, all of mankind's sexual perversions from being part of the error as well, since they all showed up long after we gained enough intelligence to start messing with evolution of our own species by growing food and letting the weak survive)?
With this long of voting, it's damned hard to call the state before the last hour or so of voting. NOTHING was called in Oregon, not even local races, before the last hour of voting, and even then, close races like Measure 35 were called both ways for a few days afterward. So no- that factor doesn't affect this.
How is pointing out a specific failure of voting machines in Florida offtopic? Flamebait I can see- but offtopic to a discussion of elections in Florida?
Unless you're arguing that anticipation or expectation are inherently capable of being experienced only by sentient beings (using one of the more restrictive definitions of sentience)?
I'd go even further than sentience- and say that this form of intent (anticipation and expectation of long-term results, after all, most hominids and primates experience gestation periods of MONTHS between sex and the child showing up) requires the specific abilities of time awareness and story telling- without which the cause-effect nature of sex and childbirth is not immediately apparent to anybody.
Close- but I was also thinking more something with a ROM-based operating system, more like This with a bluetooth keyboard addon. Same specs though when it comes to drop, water & dust intrusion, etc.
Bonobos frequently engage in sexual activity innately incapable of resulting in reproduction -- something which allows presence or lack of "intent" (in at least some sense of the word) to be inferred.
Yeah- but I bet the bonobos don't know that- they just think it's fun and fullfills their instinct. No REAL intent there besides what the bonobo-watchers anthromorphize into the behavior.
He could get This one. IIRC- Behemoth II had Mac, Linux, PC, Solaris boxes, as well as a ham radio, GPS, nifty heads-up water-cooled wearable monitor, cell phone, dockable laptop, batteries, and a lot of solar panels. "Only Too Heavy" indeed.
So far- that's all I've had to do with my 18-month-old entropy generator- once I set the screen saver passwords, he can bang all he wants to on the keyboard and it just goes "beep" after a while. He loves it. Later on, I'll be getting him something small and ruggedized.
Ah- that's more a case of personal preference than morals. I hated dating and now that I've had kids, see no point whatsoever in doing it again- even after my spouse's death. I've got better things to do with my time.
Having kids is ONE purpose of sex. Who says it isn't also supposed to be pleasureable?
Rather, it's pleasurable so that you will want to have kids; and want to stay together for the 18 years it takes to raise those kids. Thus the pleasure is part and parcel of sex being for the purpose of having kids.
Many types of animals have sex without intending to procreate, primates and other mammals primarily.
That's a funny line also- since only human beings have the ability to reason and thus the ability to intend anything at all.
Darwinist Theory or Creationist Theory, whichever one you choose humans have been on the planet a lot longer than millions of years. Its either 100,000 or 6,000. Take your pick.
Funny again- both the nubmers you quote- 100,000 years and 6,000 years- are a lot less than the 2 million given to the first "True human" upright walking fossils.....and you say that it is more. The point however is that your observations only really apply to agriculturalist societies- and not even all of them (I see no point, for instance, in having yet another illogical female in my life)- since agriculture has only been around, at most, for 10,000 years. BTW, that's where the Creationist Theory comes from- they assume that the only true human beings ARE the agriculturalists- and thus they start counting time from the Agricultural Grouping of the Fertile Valley Crescent, which was indeed 6000 years ago. Cain didn't kill Abel out of jealousy- Cain killed Abel so that he could farm the meadows, just as the farmers in Brazil are killing off the natives so that they can farm the jungle today.
I don't base my beliefs on the Kinsey reports at all. You're the one who brought them up. There are many sources on sexual behaviour other than what Kinsey found out.
And yet- all of them seem equally biased to behavior in certain sub-cultures and avoid even looking at the several centuries before.
The media doesn't force anyone to have sex. Displaying sex and forcing people to have it are two different things. One is entertainment and the other is rape. It is unfortunate you can't differntiate between the two.
One is acutally PEER PRESSURE, and the other is rape. I see no difference between the two.
After that very short period of time
Yeah, the first two million years or so.
it became fashinonable to have a mistress. If you take the entire history of humanity into account there is more total time given to society prefering a virile male than a chaste one.
Actually, no- tribal society has a far longer history than your oppressive agricultural society.
So you and your wife only have sex when you want a child?
That's the purpose of sex.
Never for pleasure?
There are tons of more pleasurable, far more satisfying things to do with our time than sex. But only one way to have kids.
Oregon, as someone mentioned, has done vote by mail for quite a while but when my company was hired to do some work for some Oregon campaigns I found out that the information on who has or has not voted is published daily. The campaigners keep hounding the people who haven't voted yet.
What's downright sad is that many campaigners completely ignore this source of information as well- I kept getting "have you voted yet" calls for a full two weeks AFTER I voted- despite the fact that it wouldn't make a bit of difference and was a waste of my time AND theirs.
Actually, the bigger issue is not "voting for the winner," but voter discouragement when it looks like the candidate you WANT to win is behind. If you think your guy is going to lose anyway, why go out and vote?
Funny, I'd have the opposite reaction "hey he's losing, he NEEDS my vote more than ever".
I don't know what you're talking about. In Florida, only old people vote for George W. Bush.
You forgot also the busy people who voted for Kerry but didn't want to re-enter their vote 9 times.
Are you 100% sure you are aware of the sexual mores of all of human history before the invention of the pill?
Yes, but it's funny that you go on to make my case for me.
Before the "pill" was invented women didn't have a lot of rights. If they were raped or coereced into having sex no one cared or listened. It was even worse the farther back you go. Men having mistresses is common all throughout history. Its not as if people were chaste beings simply because there was no pill around.
And yet- go far enough back in history you'll find that having a mistress meant having your head cut off. No tribal society put up with these sorts of sexual problems- because doing so was a threat to the survival of the entire tribe.
And that doesn't even touch on all the child molestation that went on before relatively recent laws and customs came about, not that it has stopped completely now either.
Marrying people off at 12 helped that issue- if you go back far enough. But you don't- you're just regurgitating the lies told about sex in school AFTER Kinsey's report.
So whether Kinsey's study was biased or not, most people do NOT desire or have the capability to live a chaste lifestyle.
And yet, if you take the rapists out of it, most do. After all, that's what you're basing all of your beliefs on- a sex report mainly taken from men in prison for rape and child molestation, not reality.
Advocating an unrealistic solution which is really akin to some BDSM related form of self denial isn't the wisest way to go when talking about preventing STDs.
Neither is trying to force everybody to have sex through the media and use of birth control that isn't 100% effective at preventing STDs. But you do it anyway. Why?
You should also clarify your definition of chastity. To most folks it means not having any sex at all but since you are married what it means is you only have sex with your wife.
I use the real definition, not some made up one. The real definition is using sex for procreation only- something my wife and I have agreed on (it's helped by the fact that we also co-sleep; hard to have sex when the 18-month-old is still in the family bed).
Depravation by being a fat chick or a geek, is more where I was coming from.
Those too are choices on what is more important; knowledge or instant gratification- so I don't see why that makes a difference.
Riiight ... and as we all know, no married person has ever got AIDS from an infected partner.
Not when they married a partner who was equally inexperienced in sex, drugs, unsafe transfusions, etc. HIV is not atmospherically transmitted.
See the thing is, not only do you have to have "will power over biological functions," you also have to have a trustworthy partner. And maybe you do, maybe you don't, but you can never know for absolute certain.
I can know for morally certain- because I bothered to do background checks and blood tests *before* we got married. This stuff isn't entirely unknowable.
And wow, your claim to feel "sorry" side-by-side with your cavalier dismissal of the problem (not to mention the finger-pointing at the parents) ought to be a big help to those afflicted with a deadly disease! Thanks for the insight!
It's meant to help the people that they would otherwise infect. Unlike most human beings, I don't pretend that I can change the past, only the future. Those people are already dead- so let them die, they're less than 2% of the population anyway. Don't mistreat them- Cuba has the best idea on this isolating them from the general population and treating them like any other person otherwise.
"Uncommon" is a social term, not a statistical term, so I'd say the second. But actually- since Kinsey's data is highly biased towards men in jail for rape and lonely rich housewives, ignoring most of the rest of society, there simply isn't any good data available on this topic at all.
Odd, isn't it, that it only became uncommon *after* invention of the pill? It's been proven that Kinsey's study was highly biased, after all, despite the fact that it made everybody feel like they were all prudes.
Condoms prevent the spread of AIDS through rape, intravenous drug use, and blood transfusion how, exactly?
But the truth is- if you abstain from rape, intravenous drug use, unchecked blood transfusions and sex, there's only one other way to get HIV- by having a mother who didn't abstain from these items.