I did not know that. Fascinating! Question that perhaps you can answer (since my Googling skills apparently can't, at the moment): at that speed, can typical human hearing actually pick up the pause in the booms and distinguish them if you're listening for them?
A sonic boom is only a fixed boom for an individual observer, not a one time crack as the plane exceeds the speed of sound. Sonic booms are caused by shockwaves following along after the moving object. You'll only hear it once (unless you outrun the object and then wait for it to go by again), but it's a sustained shockwave for as long as the plane is flying fast enough.
I've seen this idea posted a lot, but I don't buy it. Microsoft is downplaying the security implications and saying it is more of an IP issue than anything. Apparently, the piece that were leaked won't represent much of a threat even if flaws are found, and Microsoft is saying as much. I would expect that if they thought it were a security issue, they'd toe that line for the very reason you stated. They're not doing that, however, so I doubt that this is their intent.
INFORMATIVE!?!?! You've been modded INFORMATIVE because you don't have any reading comprehension skills!? How do these people get mod points anyway?
was apparently removed from a Linux computer
Would you care to remove your foot from your mouth by explaining how "from" actually means "because of"? The guy could've accidentally ftp'd the damn thing to a public FTP server. Someone may have stolen it locally because he didn't lock his work station. A CORE DUMP COULD'VE BEEN CHECKED INTO A CVS ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MACHINE THAN THE ONE THE CORE DUMP REFERENCES BY THE DIRECTOR BECAUSE HE WAS BEING CARELESS. It is not uncommon for people to check in bizarre shit that doesn't belong in the tree because they're not paying attention.
On top of that, if it really was an FTP flaw, would you care to explain how that's because of running Linux? Oh, I'm sorry, are there no FTP clients on UNIX? On Windows? Funny. I have a DOS FTP client right here.
On top of that, core dump files are SUPPOSED to make forensics trivial. The whole POINT is to provide valid information about the process at the time it crapped out so you can figure out what happened.
It is a POSSIBILITY that a Linux vulnerability exposed the code. Is is not LIKELY and there is no EVIDENCE at this point to even subtly suggest such a thing may be true. Before you go spouting such unbelievably warped bullshit, why don't you try analyzing the facts and firmly grounding yourself in reality first. If you'd done that, you'd realize that nobody knows exactly how it leaked at this point.
Should've clarified - people who want to take someone else's hard work and sell it with their own without giving anything back. In other words, people who want to use GPL'ed code and still keept their own code a secret. I mean, really - if what you're doing is really so super-secret and valuable, you probably don't need to be copying anyone else's code anyway, and investing some money in a few proprietary library licenses is going to be a pretty good investment.
Quick! Give me an answer as to why the juciest targets are almost all running Linux/BSD/Unix but a bunch of crappy Windows machines with no strategic value what-so-ever are the constant victims of widespread, non-spam worms and viruses (I'll give benefit-of-the-doubt to Windows in the case of spam worms because of the need for wide deployment which makes Windows the perfect target)?
Oh, you can't give me an answer? That would be because no matter how hard you try, Windows is a homogenous environment with minimal control given to the system owner, whereas the *nix philosophy of piece-mealing a system means it's difficult to find well-maintained *nix systems that are reasonably similar such that a single exploit would work effectively across all of them. This is something *nix figured out 25 years ago. It's something Microsoft is just beginning to understand and incorporate into things like Win2003.
Oh, and of course there's always the fact that Windows is built on an inherently flawed philosophy of consumer marketability above all other concerns. Translation: If you care about network security, Windows sucks. Deal with it. Stop making unsubstantiated, lame brain excuses that don't even have so much as anecdotal evidence to support them. I'm tired of making excuses for it. Again and again Microsoft has proven that they can't be trusted when security is of any concern at all. If you can't recognize the pattern they developed over the last 15 years for themselves, that's YOUR problem, but don't bring your apologizing attitude over to Linux which has a pretty damn good track record.
I'll bet MY bottom dollar on all of THAT, thank you very much.
How can a site so full of OSS supporters have so many people so ignorant of how software licensing works? Yes, if they were found to be infringing the GPL they COULD GPL the whole kernel, but that would be stupid. They would just pay damages for infringement and remove the GPL code from future releases. This "viral licensing" bullshit is so idiotic, I can't understand how it got started. I blame SCO.
Big, important catch. Yes, if you take prop code and mingle GPL code and want to share the code, then the entire code that you mingled goes GPL. This is not a Bad Thing, although bullshit lawyers and empty suits seem to think so. Think about it. If you're taking GPL code and mingling proprietray code, and want to sell it, you can't do that effectively. Good. No reason you should be able to take someone else's code and use it for your own personal benefit if they don't want you to. If you're not selling the code anyway, what's the big deal?
The only people who complain about the GPL are the ones who are whining that they can't take someone else's hard work for nothing and then resell it to satiate their own personal greed. Boo hoo. If you want to sell code, write the fucking code yourself. Imagine that... doing your own work. What a novel idea in an age where so many companies' profits rest on baseless litigation and people all want something for nothing.
Heh, in my experience, not only are the flaws fixed quicker, fewer are found in the major components. You have buggy crap galore in the little leagues, of course, but the major players like the kernel/httpd/postgresql/etc. generally don't seem to have as many problems, have less serious problems, and have their problems fixed quicker.
Should've qualified my Apache fix repsonse - the last 1.3.x fix since I've not moved to 2.x yet and haven't been following it.
Except, if you get owned you can compare a known-clean md5 against the currently stored one. If there's a discrepancy between the 1/15/04 and 1/14/04 md5, and you weren't compromised prior to that (but, let's face it, if you get compromised on a compromised machine, maybe md5 hashes shouldn't be your biggest concern), you can restore the 1/14/04 copy and alert people that all of the copies from your server after that (and any that may have replicated to other servers) are tainted and need to be recovered from your new system. They serve their purpose, even if they aren't the best solution for protecting the downloader.
Seems about right. The compressed Win2k fits on a single CD-ROM. LinKernel + X + GNU Tools + Peripherals == 3 discs at about 1.7 gigs IIRC (it's been awhile since I dl'ed a full distro). Plus, bear in mind, this is the source code. You won't have graphics and sounds files and vid clips and all that tripe in it.
July of 03, I believe, was the last significant one. There was a vulnerability with buffer overflows in mod_somethingorother, IIRC. Sombody else go Google it... I'm too lazy, and I don't have my home e-mail with advisories available ATM.
They're called.md5s. Use them. They exist for a reason. You'd have to have some godawful cooperation between some very mean people to successfully pull off a corruption on widely deployed OSS software AND not throw red flags up among people who have clean versions and clean md5 hashes.
And, what's you're point on stagnant OSS projects? I don't see Microsoft supporting Win3.1 anymore, but there's a lot of people still using that. The difference is that NOBODY can go through it and fix it up or make anything of it. If someone decides to pick up the pieces on an abandoned piece of OSS that shows promise they can do that.
I hate when people do this. You didn't raise any issues that aren't a problem with ALL software, yet you are applying them specifically to OSS. If a server gets owned, it gets owned. It doesn't matter if it's commerical/proprietary, commercial/oss, or whatever. It's owned. Binaries can still be injected with malicious code. They're owned. Give it up. There's no inherent flaw in OSS.
Don't feel bad. A bunch of HS kids snapped a photo of my head in an Applebee's about a month back because my hair was such a mess that it was apparently one of the funniest things they'd ever seen.
If I walked in a Prada, security would probably execute me in the lobby....
What happens when somebody is able to buy info that ties a tag back to your name, address, phone, etc? They know where you've been, what your doing, without you even knowing or giving permission. You don't think that could be abused?
Yea, I know. I've been thinking about getting rid of my e-mail too.
I heard that Giant [the grocery store chain] made more last year selling data about their customers than in profits from items sold in their store.
That's fine. As far as they know I'm one of my dead friends and I'm living on the 3rd floor in a condemned building in the center of the city somewhere. On top of that, I share the card with one of my other friends' entire family.
I should have generated some rather interesting marketing data by now.
I think you need to go back to about 1st grade science classes, my friend. I could step on this plant next to me to kill something that isn't human. And, it's alive even though it doesn't have any brain activity.
On another note, a lot of women regret them later and have bad dreams, suicidal thoughts, etc.
On another note, a lot of people have bad dreams, suicidal thoughts, etc. whether they've decided on an abortion or not.
Ergo, it's just pathetic human laziness and lack of consideration for the consequences of our actions that causes the issue in the first place.
I'm so comforted by the thought that rape victims are just lazy. It eases a great burden on my mind to think that anyone who gets raped is just a "victim" of pathetic human laziness and that they didn't consider the consequences of the rapist's actions.
Just a bit of friendly advice.... you either need to start picking your words more carefully to actually say what you think that you are saying, or you just need to not talk altogether. I know you're not really meaning to say such idiotic things, but you keep doing so anyway, presumably because you don't take the time to think about how your're wording your thoughts.
I do not agree that there is not some point where the living lump of senseless flesh ceases to become a mound of organic material and begins being a human being. No capability for thought equates to a non-functional human mind which is, in effect, a vegetable. Once there is discernible brain activity, the being becomes a living human, and abortion becomes an option only for the prevention of serious medical complications.
Of course, you have a few idiots who abuse it and use it as birth control because they really are stupid and careless, but I have a hard time believing they're in the majority. Stupid people tend not to have that kind of money lying around.
So, you're saying that the basic build of the system is so inherently flawed that it takes their developers six months to sort the mess out? So, you're saying that there are far bigger problems with Microsoft's product quality than individual exploits? My GNU/Linux system does thousands of things out of the box. My Windows box has, as it's most complex tool, a calculator. It took them 6 months to fix this CRITICAL flaw. I don't think I've ever waited more than a WEEK to have a fix for ANYTHING in the GNU/Linux system.
And, this helps your argument how? Microsoft's products are so basically flawed that even the developers can't figure out how they work together in a timely fashion. Great. Instills great confidence in me. Thanks for clearing all that up, I sure see how I was wrong now.
You people that insist on bashing *nix users for "faux-superiority" remind me of crazy people that bang their heads agaisnt the wall over and over even though it hurts. I mean, give me a fucking break. I'm not the one staring down the barrel of a vendor that takes 6 months to fix a critical vulnerability or has a standing history of just ignoring such things when possible.
There's no "faux" superiority. There's nothing significant that Windows can do better than Linux in the back office anymore. Only a complete idiot would continue to use Windows systems for any mainstream services. With a few custom exceptions, there's just no room for Windows on a smart admin's server anymore, and Windows on the desktop will drop dead when vendors decide that Linux has reached critical mass and it's time to start porting commercial apps. We know it works. We know it works better than windows. It's not faux superiority. Windows just sucks and now people have a choice not to use it. Get over it. If you're dumb enough to keep exposing data and users through Microsoft's well-known, well-documented, ongoing negligence, that's YOUR problem. However, just because I don't have that problem, don't come getting all pissy with me.
OSS doesn't HAVE to fix it immediately. The community and/or developers DO fix it immediately because, unlike Microsoft, they care about writing good code and having some respect. All Microsoft as an entity gives a crap about is money. It's easier to just stick a fork in the consumer's eye than fix problems, so that's what they do. They don't care what anyone thinks of them for it because they're the status quo which keeps morons who buy a new PC ever 5 weeks buying Microsoft's tired old garbage.
That's the difference - Good OSS projects care about writing good code which is how they get recognized as good OSS projects. Microsoft doesn't care about having any respect, it just wants money.
Re:Bill Gates, Hall of Fame Hacker? (P.S. First Po
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Hackers Hall of Fame
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· Score: 1
Well, I agree that some of the folks on that list leave a lot to be desired. I don't know about the anonymous remailer "hacker" for one or the EFF founder for another. However, people like ESR and RMS - while, perhaps, out of place around the likes of Condor, Cap'n Crunch, and Phiber Optik - definitely exemplify the "good guy" hacker persona as much as the others exemplify the "dark side" of the art.
I don't think I'm convinced ol' Billy Boy belongs on there though. Of course, look at it this way. Without guys like Woz they might not have had trash 80s with BASIC anyway, so maybe if Woz belongs, Bill does too.... I dunno... I still think Bill has been and always will be a marketeer at heart. Maybe he should go on for Soc Eng skills?
Re:Bill Gates, Hall of Fame Hacker? (P.S. First Po
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Hackers Hall of Fame
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· Score: 3, Interesting
I think the issue at hand isn't whether Bill Gates WAS a hacker. Obviously, Bill and friends were at one point even if they aren't now. The point of contention is whether or not his hacking was actually significant enough to warrant putting him in a HOF, or if his significant contribution is actually in the realm of business and that's just getting confused with his hackish start.
I mean, is introducing a ground-up BASIC interpreter that most people don't know about as significant as Condor's "work"? Cool as it may be, I'll bet more people know about Mitnick's exploits than Bill's. Tough call, really.
Slashdot Mirror
I did not know that. Fascinating! Question that perhaps you can answer (since my Googling skills apparently can't, at the moment): at that speed, can typical human hearing actually pick up the pause in the booms and distinguish them if you're listening for them?
A sonic boom is only a fixed boom for an individual observer, not a one time crack as the plane exceeds the speed of sound. Sonic booms are caused by shockwaves following along after the moving object. You'll only hear it once (unless you outrun the object and then wait for it to go by again), but it's a sustained shockwave for as long as the plane is flying fast enough.
I've seen this idea posted a lot, but I don't buy it. Microsoft is downplaying the security implications and saying it is more of an IP issue than anything. Apparently, the piece that were leaked won't represent much of a threat even if flaws are found, and Microsoft is saying as much. I would expect that if they thought it were a security issue, they'd toe that line for the very reason you stated. They're not doing that, however, so I doubt that this is their intent.
INFORMATIVE!?!?! You've been modded INFORMATIVE because you don't have any reading comprehension skills!? How do these people get mod points anyway?
was apparently removed from a Linux computer
Would you care to remove your foot from your mouth by explaining how "from" actually means "because of"? The guy could've accidentally ftp'd the damn thing to a public FTP server. Someone may have stolen it locally because he didn't lock his work station. A CORE DUMP COULD'VE BEEN CHECKED INTO A CVS ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MACHINE THAN THE ONE THE CORE DUMP REFERENCES BY THE DIRECTOR BECAUSE HE WAS BEING CARELESS. It is not uncommon for people to check in bizarre shit that doesn't belong in the tree because they're not paying attention.
On top of that, if it really was an FTP flaw, would you care to explain how that's because of running Linux? Oh, I'm sorry, are there no FTP clients on UNIX? On Windows? Funny. I have a DOS FTP client right here.
On top of that, core dump files are SUPPOSED to make forensics trivial. The whole POINT is to provide valid information about the process at the time it crapped out so you can figure out what happened.
It is a POSSIBILITY that a Linux vulnerability exposed the code. Is is not LIKELY and there is no EVIDENCE at this point to even subtly suggest such a thing may be true. Before you go spouting such unbelievably warped bullshit, why don't you try analyzing the facts and firmly grounding yourself in reality first. If you'd done that, you'd realize that nobody knows exactly how it leaked at this point.
Unbelievable...
Should've clarified - people who want to take someone else's hard work and sell it with their own without giving anything back. In other words, people who want to use GPL'ed code and still keept their own code a secret. I mean, really - if what you're doing is really so super-secret and valuable, you probably don't need to be copying anyone else's code anyway, and investing some money in a few proprietary library licenses is going to be a pretty good investment.
Yay for ignorance! Alive and well on Slashdot!
Quick! Give me an answer as to why the juciest targets are almost all running Linux/BSD/Unix but a bunch of crappy Windows machines with no strategic value what-so-ever are the constant victims of widespread, non-spam worms and viruses (I'll give benefit-of-the-doubt to Windows in the case of spam worms because of the need for wide deployment which makes Windows the perfect target)?
Oh, you can't give me an answer? That would be because no matter how hard you try, Windows is a homogenous environment with minimal control given to the system owner, whereas the *nix philosophy of piece-mealing a system means it's difficult to find well-maintained *nix systems that are reasonably similar such that a single exploit would work effectively across all of them. This is something *nix figured out 25 years ago. It's something Microsoft is just beginning to understand and incorporate into things like Win2003.
Oh, and of course there's always the fact that Windows is built on an inherently flawed philosophy of consumer marketability above all other concerns. Translation: If you care about network security, Windows sucks. Deal with it. Stop making unsubstantiated, lame brain excuses that don't even have so much as anecdotal evidence to support them. I'm tired of making excuses for it. Again and again Microsoft has proven that they can't be trusted when security is of any concern at all. If you can't recognize the pattern they developed over the last 15 years for themselves, that's YOUR problem, but don't bring your apologizing attitude over to Linux which has a pretty damn good track record.
I'll bet MY bottom dollar on all of THAT, thank you very much.
Windows kernel gets the kernel GPL'd
How can a site so full of OSS supporters have so many people so ignorant of how software licensing works? Yes, if they were found to be infringing the GPL they COULD GPL the whole kernel, but that would be stupid. They would just pay damages for infringement and remove the GPL code from future releases. This "viral licensing" bullshit is so idiotic, I can't understand how it got started. I blame SCO.
if you redistribute it.
Big, important catch. Yes, if you take prop code and mingle GPL code and want to share the code, then the entire code that you mingled goes GPL. This is not a Bad Thing, although bullshit lawyers and empty suits seem to think so. Think about it. If you're taking GPL code and mingling proprietray code, and want to sell it, you can't do that effectively. Good. No reason you should be able to take someone else's code and use it for your own personal benefit if they don't want you to. If you're not selling the code anyway, what's the big deal?
The only people who complain about the GPL are the ones who are whining that they can't take someone else's hard work for nothing and then resell it to satiate their own personal greed. Boo hoo. If you want to sell code, write the fucking code yourself. Imagine that... doing your own work. What a novel idea in an age where so many companies' profits rest on baseless litigation and people all want something for nothing.
Heh, in my experience, not only are the flaws fixed quicker, fewer are found in the major components. You have buggy crap galore in the little leagues, of course, but the major players like the kernel/httpd/postgresql/etc. generally don't seem to have as many problems, have less serious problems, and have their problems fixed quicker.
Should've qualified my Apache fix repsonse - the last 1.3.x fix since I've not moved to 2.x yet and haven't been following it.
Except, if you get owned you can compare a known-clean md5 against the currently stored one. If there's a discrepancy between the 1/15/04 and 1/14/04 md5, and you weren't compromised prior to that (but, let's face it, if you get compromised on a compromised machine, maybe md5 hashes shouldn't be your biggest concern), you can restore the 1/14/04 copy and alert people that all of the copies from your server after that (and any that may have replicated to other servers) are tainted and need to be recovered from your new system. They serve their purpose, even if they aren't the best solution for protecting the downloader.
Seems about right. The compressed Win2k fits on a single CD-ROM. LinKernel + X + GNU Tools + Peripherals == 3 discs at about 1.7 gigs IIRC (it's been awhile since I dl'ed a full distro). Plus, bear in mind, this is the source code. You won't have graphics and sounds files and vid clips and all that tripe in it.
July of 03, I believe, was the last significant one. There was a vulnerability with buffer overflows in mod_somethingorother, IIRC. Sombody else go Google it... I'm too lazy, and I don't have my home e-mail with advisories available ATM.
They're called .md5s. Use them. They exist for a reason. You'd have to have some godawful cooperation between some very mean people to successfully pull off a corruption on widely deployed OSS software AND not throw red flags up among people who have clean versions and clean md5 hashes.
And, what's you're point on stagnant OSS projects? I don't see Microsoft supporting Win3.1 anymore, but there's a lot of people still using that. The difference is that NOBODY can go through it and fix it up or make anything of it. If someone decides to pick up the pieces on an abandoned piece of OSS that shows promise they can do that.
I hate when people do this. You didn't raise any issues that aren't a problem with ALL software, yet you are applying them specifically to OSS. If a server gets owned, it gets owned. It doesn't matter if it's commerical/proprietary, commercial/oss, or whatever. It's owned. Binaries can still be injected with malicious code. They're owned. Give it up. There's no inherent flaw in OSS.
Don't feel bad. A bunch of HS kids snapped a photo of my head in an Applebee's about a month back because my hair was such a mess that it was apparently one of the funniest things they'd ever seen.
If I walked in a Prada, security would probably execute me in the lobby....
What happens when somebody is able to buy info that ties a tag back to your name, address, phone, etc? They know where you've been, what your doing, without you even knowing or giving permission. You don't think that could be abused?
Yea, I know. I've been thinking about getting rid of my e-mail too.
I heard that Giant [the grocery store chain] made more last year selling data about their customers than in profits from items sold in their store.
That's fine. As far as they know I'm one of my dead friends and I'm living on the 3rd floor in a condemned building in the center of the city somewhere. On top of that, I share the card with one of my other friends' entire family.
I should have generated some rather interesting marketing data by now.
I think you need to go back to about 1st grade science classes, my friend. I could step on this plant next to me to kill something that isn't human. And, it's alive even though it doesn't have any brain activity.
Ahhhhh.... public education at work...
On another note, a lot of women regret them later and have bad dreams, suicidal thoughts, etc.
On another note, a lot of people have bad dreams, suicidal thoughts, etc. whether they've decided on an abortion or not.
Ergo, it's just pathetic human laziness and lack of consideration for the consequences of our actions that causes the issue in the first place.
I'm so comforted by the thought that rape victims are just lazy. It eases a great burden on my mind to think that anyone who gets raped is just a "victim" of pathetic human laziness and that they didn't consider the consequences of the rapist's actions.
Just a bit of friendly advice.... you either need to start picking your words more carefully to actually say what you think that you are saying, or you just need to not talk altogether. I know you're not really meaning to say such idiotic things, but you keep doing so anyway, presumably because you don't take the time to think about how your're wording your thoughts.
I do not agree that there is not some point where the living lump of senseless flesh ceases to become a mound of organic material and begins being a human being. No capability for thought equates to a non-functional human mind which is, in effect, a vegetable. Once there is discernible brain activity, the being becomes a living human, and abortion becomes an option only for the prevention of serious medical complications.
Of course, you have a few idiots who abuse it and use it as birth control because they really are stupid and careless, but I have a hard time believing they're in the majority. Stupid people tend not to have that kind of money lying around.
So, you're saying that the basic build of the system is so inherently flawed that it takes their developers six months to sort the mess out? So, you're saying that there are far bigger problems with Microsoft's product quality than individual exploits? My GNU/Linux system does thousands of things out of the box. My Windows box has, as it's most complex tool, a calculator. It took them 6 months to fix this CRITICAL flaw. I don't think I've ever waited more than a WEEK to have a fix for ANYTHING in the GNU/Linux system.
And, this helps your argument how? Microsoft's products are so basically flawed that even the developers can't figure out how they work together in a timely fashion. Great. Instills great confidence in me. Thanks for clearing all that up, I sure see how I was wrong now.
Slashdot uses Perl, you insensitive clod! :-P
You people that insist on bashing *nix users for "faux-superiority" remind me of crazy people that bang their heads agaisnt the wall over and over even though it hurts. I mean, give me a fucking break. I'm not the one staring down the barrel of a vendor that takes 6 months to fix a critical vulnerability or has a standing history of just ignoring such things when possible.
There's no "faux" superiority. There's nothing significant that Windows can do better than Linux in the back office anymore. Only a complete idiot would continue to use Windows systems for any mainstream services. With a few custom exceptions, there's just no room for Windows on a smart admin's server anymore, and Windows on the desktop will drop dead when vendors decide that Linux has reached critical mass and it's time to start porting commercial apps. We know it works. We know it works better than windows. It's not faux superiority. Windows just sucks and now people have a choice not to use it. Get over it. If you're dumb enough to keep exposing data and users through Microsoft's well-known, well-documented, ongoing negligence, that's YOUR problem. However, just because I don't have that problem, don't come getting all pissy with me.
Yea, the stupidity of basing the executable potential of a file in the filesystem on three letters at the end of it's name.
OSS doesn't HAVE to fix it immediately. The community and/or developers DO fix it immediately because, unlike Microsoft, they care about writing good code and having some respect. All Microsoft as an entity gives a crap about is money. It's easier to just stick a fork in the consumer's eye than fix problems, so that's what they do. They don't care what anyone thinks of them for it because they're the status quo which keeps morons who buy a new PC ever 5 weeks buying Microsoft's tired old garbage.
That's the difference - Good OSS projects care about writing good code which is how they get recognized as good OSS projects. Microsoft doesn't care about having any respect, it just wants money.
Well, I agree that some of the folks on that list leave a lot to be desired. I don't know about the anonymous remailer "hacker" for one or the EFF founder for another. However, people like ESR and RMS - while, perhaps, out of place around the likes of Condor, Cap'n Crunch, and Phiber Optik - definitely exemplify the "good guy" hacker persona as much as the others exemplify the "dark side" of the art.
I don't think I'm convinced ol' Billy Boy belongs on there though. Of course, look at it this way. Without guys like Woz they might not have had trash 80s with BASIC anyway, so maybe if Woz belongs, Bill does too.... I dunno... I still think Bill has been and always will be a marketeer at heart. Maybe he should go on for Soc Eng skills?
I think the issue at hand isn't whether Bill Gates WAS a hacker. Obviously, Bill and friends were at one point even if they aren't now. The point of contention is whether or not his hacking was actually significant enough to warrant putting him in a HOF, or if his significant contribution is actually in the realm of business and that's just getting confused with his hackish start.
I mean, is introducing a ground-up BASIC interpreter that most people don't know about as significant as Condor's "work"? Cool as it may be, I'll bet more people know about Mitnick's exploits than Bill's. Tough call, really.