I should point out that I personally do not like nationalism either (as implied by my golbal identity comment), but that does not mean I cannot, when not letting my opinions cloud the issue, see that nations do factually exist.
If you use that definition, you are making a statement about your own politics and the politics of your region.
I am not aware of any usage of the word nation other than the one I use. Please explain how you use it.
I am not making a statement about my politics when I use it. I am making a statement about the identity of the people within the region (i.e.: if most people in Wales would describe themselves as Welsh, Wales is a nation*).
[* As an aside, my personal national identity is global (citizen of the world) as opposed to Eurasian, European, UKonian, British, Welsh, &c]
I am not representing Wales in any political way. I am making a factual statement.
It reinforces the impression that the UK, unfortunately, has a much longer way to go to shed vestiges of nationalism than other members of the EU.
Not at all. In fact, I personally believe we are on of the least nationalistic member states. Part of the reason why there is no strong nationalism in the UK is because it is made up of many different nations (such as the Welsh, and, arguably, say, the Pakistani community) and ethnicities (i.e.: there is no single British ethnic group--although, one could argue tha the Welsh and Scottish are descended mainly from the Britons--but England, at least, is a mix of hundreds of ethnic groups like Vikings, Anglo-Saxons, Jews) as opposed to having a single strong identity.
Also, as people of different nations have joined together into one state and (except republicans in Northern Ireland) they accept this position, it would seem we have learnt to deal with international struggles/diplomacy/politics--something useful in the EU.
Canada has nothing to do with what we discussing. I was countering ad-hominem arguments against me based on what people in my country (UK) used to do with points about the US. Very off-topic anyway.
I accept your points, but they're all against Microsoft Windows (which I don't use if I can help it). I hate to say this, but one thing I can say is that, on the times I've used MacOS, it has also been less stable than even MSW.
Regarding MS, we can give example after example, comparing the two copmany's evilness (but I'm going off-line now), but basically they're as bad as each other--except that Apple's business model is, at least fundametally, potentially worse than MS's because of the better lock-in and proprietary hardware.
You should've replied to the grandparent (post I replied to) not to me--the quote you use was from him. I was making your point that it takes a long time to get from A to B over here.
Firstly.. the EU almost certainly going to have a directive on the patentability of software.
FTR, we already have a very clear anti-A&IP (algorithmic and information (inc. software) patents) directive in force. The reason the anti-A&IP people want another directive is that the pro-A&IP lobby are making excuses like "we're allowed to break that directive because it was a while back; people think differently now". Also, note that allowing A&IPs violates international treaties like TRIPS.
I won't answer that as its mostly just ad hominem FUD.
France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Poland, or the US.
Spain includes several nations. I think Italy might. Germany used to (before the rise of the nation-state) but probably doesn't these days.
Assuming you've ever done history, you have probably heard of the "rise of the nation-state" which occured in Europe (where state/country boundary started to coincide with national boundaries as opposed to being completely arbitary). How does that make any sense in your anti-culture/nationality world view?
Before I answer you, please read the f***ing definition of country, state and nation in a dictionary or encyclopedia--use the links I gave you. You are getting confused between them again.
It's called the United Nations, not the "United Countries".
Short answer: So what? What bearing does that have on your argument that if something isn't mentioned in their list of members, it is not a nation.
Long answer:
They are called the United Nations because their organisation was founded to unite (and build bridges between) different nations. The fact that their members are `countries'--actually, they're states--has nothing to do with this aim.
Analogy: a charity to help people affected by the tsunami doesn't have to only accept donations from or be run by those who had their homes washed away.
In fact, by definition, a non-state nation doesn't have any representation, so who would represent it as a member? Don't believe me; look at what the UN say. A nation has a national identity and culture (and usu. a common language) and a state has someone in charge--it makes perfect sense that the UN would be a collection of states' governments who want to unite nations.
If the UK chooses to call Wales a "principality and a nation" to pacify certain political elements within its domestic political system, that's its own business.
It may be true that the UK government has political reasons to call it a nation (although they probably haven't IMO). That does not change the fact that it factually is a nation. There's a lot of straw flying around here; don't you think?
status that goes beyond that of subdivisions of other nations
That's correct, it does (unless you are talking of status as meaning representation or government).
That's going to meet with resistance
From whom? Even after Wales just won the Six Nations (rugby tournament) against England, the English called the Welsh lots of names but they never said "you're not a nation and only part of the `UK nation'" because they would then be questioning their own national identity (as well as, for that matter, their right to be in the Six Nations). Find someone who resists it (except you and you clearly haven't used your dictionary yet).
because there is no reason why your political subdivision (with, what, 3 million people?)
There's absolutely loads of straw blowing around. The population size of a nation does not effect its existence, nor does the fact that it is a political subdivision within a country or state.
just because you arbitrarily decided to call your little snippet of the UK a "nation"
It is not just me. Its eveyone else here (which is what makes us a nation). Oh and the international community (e.g.: UN) also agree.
Face it, Wales is just an administrative subdivision of the UK, functionally and socially not much different from a state inside other nations.
Functionally, it is less than a state within another country, because the National Assembly does not have primary legislative power.
Socially, it is more than a non-nation state within a nation because it is a nation with its own social identity.
Anything else you believe is your personal delusions of grandeur.
Quit the ad-hominem arguments and give me a single valid counter-argument. When you've done that, you can try proving the truth of your valid counter-argument.
Also, how can one karma whore these days as pretty much everyone on/. has excellent karma (and its pretty much impossible for it o go back down again) anyway (and there's no way to compare one's karma past excellent)?
I don't care about the karma. I just couldn't resist tacking it on the end (as it is very on-topic) after the start of my post (which likely would have been modded up anyway).
I didn't realised the Indian bill had got through. This is amazing as India was (before this bill was passed) a big hub of software (esp. free software) development and probably leading the way in software freedom and technology generally as a country. Also, I believe the president of India is friendly with RMS.
doing so only magnifies your ignorance. Remember, it helps to know what you are talking about before attempting to talk about it.
I've used (or tried using) Macs many times--in fact, I used one this week briefly. I've looked at how much they cost. I know about the history of Apple and their crusades against freedom (e.g.: recent case with EFF).
They produce an expensive, badly designed (although the design was actually quite good in its early days), proprietary (except Darwin) OS on expensive, badly-designed, proprietary hardware.
Instead of using ad hominem arguments against me, tell me what is wrong with my arguments and conclusions. Try comparing it with GNU/Linux on an Intel/IBM-compatible PC.
Mr. Gates: Now that's what I call a dead patent law. The JURI is no longer out on that patent law...its most definitely deceased.
Commissioner: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!
Mr. Gates: STUNNED?!?
Commissioner: Yeah! 'E was stunned by all the public backlash! Patent laws stun easily, major.
Mr. Gates: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That patent law is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not two years ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following prolonged internal diplomacy.
Commissioner: Well...uhhh...we prefer to do things dead slow and sure like in the EU!
Mr. Gates: Well...the dead bit is most certainly right. Look, why did it fall flat on his back the moment I got home last time? I never had these problems with Congress...
Commissioner:Remarkable patent law, id'nit, squire? Lovely contradictions and those beautiful convoluted sentences!
Mr. Gates: Look, I took the liberty of examining that patent law when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it had got as far as it had in the first place was that no one had actually READ it.
(pause)
Commissioner: Well, o'course they don't! They're not payed enough for that...at least they are, but we pay 'em NOT to read 'em. That's the trick, you see. Trust me...that patent law will fly straight through as an A-item in the fisheries committee...just like...a parrot, sir...you know parrots love a bit of fish...the great thing is, sir, that the ministers and MEPs avoid it like the plague on account of it stinkin' to 'igh 'eaven...
Mr. Gates: Never find how 'igh your damn committee stinks, this patent law wouldn't fly through your committee if you put four million volts through every minister present! 'E's bleedin' demised!
Commissioner: No no! 'E's just a li'l slow!
Mr. Gates: 'E's not slow! 'E's passed on! This patent law is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! 'E's pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked thebucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PATENT LAW!!
(pause)
Commissioner: Well, I'd better replace it, then. (he takes a quick peek round the back) Sorry squire, I've had a look 'round the back , and uh, we're right out of patent laws.
Mr. Gates: I see. I see, I get the picture.
Commissioner: I got a HIPC initiative. Uhhh...your good...ummm...friend, Mr. Brown had this idea you see but he hasn't got the means...
(pause)
Mr. Gates: (sweetly) Pray, will it take out my competitors?
Commissioner: Nnnnot really.
Mr. Gates: WELL IT'S HARDLY A BLOODY REPLACEMENT, IS IT?!!???!!?
Commissioner: N-no, I guess not. (gets ashamed, looks at his feet)
Mr. Gates: Well.
(pause)
Commissioner: (quietly) You know I thought that uhhh...spread in Teen Beat was rather good...uhhh...D'you.... d'you want to come back to my place?
The BBC article is a bit vague (although perfectly accurate). As Zonk says, this basically means that the Conference of Presidents has ratified the JURI decision to throw out the directive as explained better by the FFII.
However there is a chance that the €C could, nonetheless, defy the Conference of Presidents, but it is very unlikely (and will cause even more backlash and probably eventually get the €C sacked).
I think this probably (you can't be sure of anything in Brussels) means the directive really is as dead as a dodo, so here's my dead patent-law sketch (apologies to Monty Python):
The Cast:
Mr. Gates
A European Commissioner
The Sketch
A `customer' (with brown envelopes and chequebook aready) enters the €C in Brussels.
Mr. Gates: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.
(The commisioner does not respond.)
Mr. Gates: 'Ello, Miss?
Commissioner: What do you mean "miss"?
Mr. Gates: I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!
Commissioner: We're closin' for lunch.
Mr. Gates: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this patent law what I purchased not two years ago from this very office.
Commissioner: Oh yes, the, uh, the computer-implemented inventions one...What's, uh...What's wrong with it?
Mr. Gates: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'E's dead, that's what's wrong with it!
Commissioner: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.
Mr. Gates: Look, matey, I know a dead patent law when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
Commissioner: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable law, idn'it, ay? Beautiful sophistory and ambiguity!
Mr. Gates: The anbiguity don't enter into it. It's stone dead.
Commissioner: Nononono, no, no! 'E's resting!
Mr. Gates: All right then, if he's restin', I'll wake him up!
...
Mr. Gates: You let the European Parliament kill 'im, didn't you!
Commissioner: I never!!
Mr. Gates: Yes, you did!
Commissioner: I never, never did anything...
(Mr. Gates takes patent law out of briefcase and thumps it on the desk. Throws it up in the air and watches it plummet to the floor.)
Flamebait? Oh...sorry, I remember now; I'm not allowed to criticise anyone but Microsoft here am I because its not l33t. (Micr0$h4ft is 500 t074lY €V1L--there, will this get me modded up now.)
Even though Apple is worse from a user freedom point of view. Oh, sorry I'm not allowed to talk about freedom here either, am I, lest I get modded down, called a gnu and a hippie and informed that I don't wash.
Are you saying that Texas is a nation? I really don't know because I've never been there. Although I thought the people there identified with the US a lot (especially since Dubya gained power).
Wrong. England is a seperate area (which some argue is a nation in itself but some argue is a mixture of other nations) from Wales. They are both part of the United Kingdom.
differences between Great Britain and the United Kingdom...
Simple. Great Britain is an island and ex-country which includes the nations of Wales, England and Scotland. The United Kingdom (of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) includes those and Northern Ireland.
Uhh...what's confederation got to do with anything?
[Trains are] supposed to take you to various places you want to go
Actually, I was talking about the roads, but what you said is true with "supposed" being the operative word there.
Um... no. There are about 5 Americans for every Briton.
US 2000 census: 281,421,906
UK 2001 census: 58,789,194
which by my reckoning is 4.8 times, so I stand corrected (sorry). As you were only a few of us orginally, you guys must have been...uhh...multiplying a lot more since you left...LOL.
We can fairly easily determine what a nation is by looking at international bodies like the UN.
The word, "nation" is not mentioned on the linked page. Indeed, elsewhere, the UN clearly shows that they understand the difference between a nation, a state and a country (which you clearly don't), and they also recognise the importance of nations.
And there, the Welsh are not represented by themselves, they are represented through the UK.
Full marks. That is because Wales is not a seperate country--a point I had actually already made in the thread you are replying to if you'd bothered looking.
illusions of independence you want to harbor
I don't. Like most people in Wales, I am not in favour of us being an independent state...heck, even Plaid Cymru are not.
Wales is no more a "nation" than Texas is.
No Texas is a state (but probably not a nation) within the country of the US. Wales is a principality and a nation (now with its own legislative National Assembly thanks to the UK gov.) within the country of the UK. Bug difference. Are you by any chance in the US (going by your lack of knowledge of geography)?
Please refer to the entry for the word, nation, in your nearest dictionary and stop bothering me. Or if you don't have one of those, look at the entries for country, nation and state on Wikipedia.
The article described Sellafield as being in "Northwestern England". I'm glad to hear that the/. editors and submitters don't RTFA either. Actually, I do RTFA--they're usually more informative than the comments and even the stories (especially the stories actually)--but I'm wierd.
If I tell USans I'm Welsh, they think I'm joking. If I tell them that means I'm from Wales they say "LOL..haha...very funny...they're fish aren't they...no...that isn't a place". Then I have to explain to them that Wales is a nation, whales are mammals, and plaice are fish. They'll learn one day.
Slashdot Mirror
I should point out that I personally do not like nationalism either (as implied by my golbal identity comment), but that does not mean I cannot, when not letting my opinions cloud the issue, see that nations do factually exist.
I am not making a statement about my politics when I use it. I am making a statement about the identity of the people within the region (i.e.: if most people in Wales would describe themselves as Welsh, Wales is a nation*).
[* As an aside, my personal national identity is global (citizen of the world) as opposed to Eurasian, European, UKonian, British, Welsh, &c]
I am not representing Wales in any political way. I am making a factual statement.
Not at all. In fact, I personally believe we are on of the least nationalistic member states. Part of the reason why there is no strong nationalism in the UK is because it is made up of many different nations (such as the Welsh, and, arguably, say, the Pakistani community) and ethnicities (i.e.: there is no single British ethnic group--although, one could argue tha the Welsh and Scottish are descended mainly from the Britons--but England, at least, is a mix of hundreds of ethnic groups like Vikings, Anglo-Saxons, Jews) as opposed to having a single strong identity.Also, as people of different nations have joined together into one state and (except republicans in Northern Ireland) they accept this position, it would seem we have learnt to deal with international struggles/diplomacy/politics--something useful in the EU.
Canada has nothing to do with what we discussing. I was countering ad-hominem arguments against me based on what people in my country (UK) used to do with points about the US. Very off-topic anyway.
Regarding MS, we can give example after example, comparing the two copmany's evilness (but I'm going off-line now), but basically they're as bad as each other--except that Apple's business model is, at least fundametally, potentially worse than MS's because of the better lock-in and proprietary hardware.
You should've replied to the grandparent (post I replied to) not to me--the quote you use was from him. I was making your point that it takes a long time to get from A to B over here.
Assuming you've ever done history, you have probably heard of the "rise of the nation-state" which occured in Europe (where state/country boundary started to coincide with national boundaries as opposed to being completely arbitary). How does that make any sense in your anti-culture/nationality world view?
Long answer: They are called the United Nations because their organisation was founded to unite (and build bridges between) different nations. The fact that their members are `countries'--actually, they're states--has nothing to do with this aim.
Analogy: a charity to help people affected by the tsunami doesn't have to only accept donations from or be run by those who had their homes washed away.
In fact, by definition, a non-state nation doesn't have any representation, so who would represent it as a member? Don't believe me; look at what the UN say. A nation has a national identity and culture (and usu. a common language) and a state has someone in charge--it makes perfect sense that the UN would be a collection of states' governments who want to unite nations.
It may be true that the UK government has political reasons to call it a nation (although they probably haven't IMO). That does not change the fact that it factually is a nation. There's a lot of straw flying around here; don't you think? That's correct, it does (unless you are talking of status as meaning representation or government). From whom? Even after Wales just won the Six Nations (rugby tournament) against England, the English called the Welsh lots of names but they never said "you're not a nation and only part of the `UK nation'" because they would then be questioning their own national identity (as well as, for that matter, their right to be in the Six Nations). Find someone who resists it (except you and you clearly haven't used your dictionary yet). There's absolutely loads of straw blowing around. The population size of a nation does not effect its existence, nor does the fact that it is a political subdivision within a country or state. It is not just me. Its eveyone else here (which is what makes us a nation). Oh and the international community (e.g.: UN) also agree. Functionally, it is less than a state within another country, because the National Assembly does not have primary legislative power.Socially, it is more than a non-nation state within a nation because it is a nation with its own social identity.
Quit the ad-hominem arguments and give me a single valid counter-argument. When you've done that, you can try proving the truth of your valid counter-argument.Also, how can one karma whore these days as pretty much everyone on /. has excellent karma (and its pretty much impossible for it o go back down again) anyway (and there's no way to compare one's karma past excellent)?
I don't care about the karma. I just couldn't resist tacking it on the end (as it is very on-topic) after the start of my post (which likely would have been modded up anyway).
Very true.
I didn't realised the Indian bill had got through. This is amazing as India was (before this bill was passed) a big hub of software (esp. free software) development and probably leading the way in software freedom and technology generally as a country. Also, I believe the president of India is friendly with RMS.
They produce an expensive, badly designed (although the design was actually quite good in its early days), proprietary (except Darwin) OS on expensive, badly-designed, proprietary hardware.
Instead of using ad hominem arguments against me, tell me what is wrong with my arguments and conclusions. Try comparing it with GNU/Linux on an Intel/IBM-compatible PC.
The Sketch (contd...)
Mr. Gates: Now that's what I call a dead patent law. The JURI is no longer out on that patent law...its most definitely deceased.
Commissioner: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!
Mr. Gates: STUNNED?!?
Commissioner: Yeah! 'E was stunned by all the public backlash! Patent laws stun easily, major.
Mr. Gates: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That patent law is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not two years ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following prolonged internal diplomacy.
Commissioner: Well...uhhh...we prefer to do things dead slow and sure like in the EU!
Mr. Gates: Well...the dead bit is most certainly right. Look, why did it fall flat on his back the moment I got home last time? I never had these problems with Congress...
Commissioner:Remarkable patent law, id'nit, squire? Lovely contradictions and those beautiful convoluted sentences!
Mr. Gates: Look, I took the liberty of examining that patent law when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it had got as far as it had in the first place was that no one had actually READ it.
(pause)
Commissioner: Well, o'course they don't! They're not payed enough for that...at least they are, but we pay 'em NOT to read 'em. That's the trick, you see. Trust me...that patent law will fly straight through as an A-item in the fisheries committee...just like...a parrot, sir...you know parrots love a bit of fish...the great thing is, sir, that the ministers and MEPs avoid it like the plague on account of it stinkin' to 'igh 'eaven...
Mr. Gates: Never find how 'igh your damn committee stinks, this patent law wouldn't fly through your committee if you put four million volts through every minister present! 'E's bleedin' demised!
Commissioner: No no! 'E's just a li'l slow!
Mr. Gates: 'E's not slow! 'E's passed on! This patent law is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! 'E's pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked thebucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PATENT LAW!!
(pause)
Commissioner: Well, I'd better replace it, then. (he takes a quick peek round the back) Sorry squire, I've had a look 'round the back , and uh, we're right out of patent laws.
Mr. Gates: I see. I see, I get the picture.
Commissioner: I got a HIPC initiative. Uhhh...your good...ummm...friend, Mr. Brown had this idea you see but he hasn't got the means...
(pause)
Mr. Gates: (sweetly) Pray, will it take out my competitors?
Commissioner: Nnnnot really.
Mr. Gates: WELL IT'S HARDLY A BLOODY REPLACEMENT, IS IT?!!???!!?
Commissioner: N-no, I guess not. (gets ashamed, looks at his feet)
Mr. Gates: Well.
(pause)
Commissioner: (quietly) You know I thought that uhhh...spread in Teen Beat was rather good...uhhh...D'you.... d'you want to come back to my place?
Mr. Gates: (looks around) Yeah, all right, sure.
Copyright
The original dead parrot sketch was written by Graham Chapman, et. al. for Monty Python's Flying Circus and is © 1989 Pantheon Books/Random House, Inc. My modification of it is co
However there is a chance that the €C could, nonetheless, defy the Conference of Presidents, but it is very unlikely (and will cause even more backlash and probably eventually get the €C sacked).
Also see details of the MEPs press conference and info. about the recent FFII demo by the €C HQ in Brussels which no doubt helped.
I think this probably (you can't be sure of anything in Brussels) means the directive really is as dead as a dodo, so here's my dead patent-law sketch (apologies to Monty Python):
The Cast:
- Mr. Gates
- A European Commissioner
The SketchA `customer' (with brown envelopes and chequebook aready) enters the €C in Brussels.
Mr. Gates: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.
(The commisioner does not respond.)
Mr. Gates: 'Ello, Miss?
Commissioner: What do you mean "miss"?
Mr. Gates: I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!
Commissioner: We're closin' for lunch.
Mr. Gates: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this patent law what I purchased not two years ago from this very office.
Commissioner: Oh yes, the, uh, the computer-implemented inventions one...What's, uh...What's wrong with it?
Mr. Gates: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'E's dead, that's what's wrong with it!
Commissioner: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.
Mr. Gates: Look, matey, I know a dead patent law when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
Commissioner: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable law, idn'it, ay? Beautiful sophistory and ambiguity!
Mr. Gates: The anbiguity don't enter into it. It's stone dead.
Commissioner: Nononono, no, no! 'E's resting!
Mr. Gates: All right then, if he's restin', I'll wake him up!
...
Mr. Gates: You let the European Parliament kill 'im, didn't you!
Commissioner: I never!!
Mr. Gates: Yes, you did!
Commissioner: I never, never did anything...
(Mr. Gates takes patent law out of briefcase and thumps it on the desk. Throws it up in the air and watches it plummet to the floor.)
contd...(due to limit on post size)
Even though Apple is worse from a user freedom point of view. Oh, sorry I'm not allowed to talk about freedom here either, am I, lest I get modded down, called a gnu and a hippie and informed that I don't wash.
Thanks.
Are you saying that Texas is a nation? I really don't know because I've never been there. Although I thought the people there identified with the US a lot (especially since Dubya gained power).
No. Wales is a nation and a principality, but not a country or a state (even though it has its own legislative National Assembly). See my aunt post.
- US 2000 census: 281,421,906
- UK 2001 census: 58,789,194
which by my reckoning is 4.8 times, so I stand corrected (sorry). As you were only a few of us orginally, you guys must have been...uhh...multiplying a lot more since you left...LOL.Please refer to the entry for the word, nation, in your nearest dictionary and stop bothering me. Or if you don't have one of those, look at the entries for country, nation and state on Wikipedia.
That too. But primarily a nation.
If I tell USans I'm Welsh, they think I'm joking. If I tell them that means I'm from Wales they say "LOL..haha...very funny...they're fish aren't they...no...that isn't a place". Then I have to explain to them that Wales is a nation, whales are mammals, and plaice are fish. They'll learn one day.