Let me take this apart for you: Then stop going on and on about it.
You're whining. Let it go.
I spoke up with an example (Me) of a non minority that had a hard time, just as many others did. I did not keep going on about it. I did however respond to other posts.
I'm well aware of that. I never said otherwise, but then when someone tells me I've been lucky to get where I am, I have enough awareness of the randomness of life not to take it as a personal insult to my integrity. I don't need to think I "deserve" anything to recognize my own self-worth, and I certainly don't need to assume that others worse off than I am are only getting what they deserve.
I suppose I'm lucky I was born with the desire and determination to learn. I'm lucky I was born in a country where that opportunity was given to me. After that I'd say it was hard work all the way.
You don't deserve anything. You "earn" whatever others give you because they decide to give it to you because it makes sense for us to build this fiction of a structure with rewards and punishments.
The details can change at any minute, and in all likelihood, they will. Some do the same work you do and get less. Some do less and get more. What does deserve have to do with it? It simply is. The meritocracy not only doesn't exist, no one really wants it to (wouldn't life suck if everything that we had, we deserved?).
Hell, even you don't really believe what you're spouting, because you've already said that some unqualified folks have positions they shouldn't have.
Let's see, it makes sense for us to build this fiction... Umm. It's a very deep seated condition to offer what you can do in exchange for what others can do. I'd say this goes back several thousand years. It's not exactly as if goods for services is a new concept or anything.
If the system changes, I'll adapt. I'll learn how to do whatever is viable. As an example, in anticipation of the possible downfall of society I know how to make candles, I know how to farm, I know how weave baskets, I learned several non-technical skills just on the off chance that our society would suddenly implode. I'm prepared for this at least marginally.
Yes, there are people who manage to get positions they aren't qualified for. Usually they are quickly removed from those positions, of course in the case of most minorities it's illegal to fire them, or you get sued out the ass.
However, I am qualified for my position and endeavoring to remain so. I earn the money I recieve. I pay a very large chunk of it in taxes. I'd say I'm already suporting enough useless crap. How about the gov. gives me back some of my money, then I might be more receptive to the idea of helping out those less fortunate.
Charles "who is sure you 'deserve' the money you're probably earning while you're posting your rants" Isbell
I am getting paid right now, I'm on salary, I work overtime which I don't get paid for. It Balances out. I do all of the work I have lined up, then I have some free time. That's one of my favorite things about this job, it's 90% non-repetitive.
It's only ludicrous because of the "buggy" part. If we're talking about righting wrongs that happened in reality -- rather than your silly example -- we would start by taking land away from white families that got them from land grants which excluded blacks. The economic make-up of America would be a bit different if black families owned significant portions of the west and midwest.
Wrong again. We would start with getting the fuck out of the country and giving it back to the natives. And most of the people in south american and central america would be leaving too, so that the descendants of Aztec and Mayan civilization could have their land back. How far do you want to take it? Get those bloody Normans out of England! Then get the bloody Saxons out too! Give the land back to whoever originally held it. Are we going to revert the stat of land in the world back to what it was around a few hundred BC? People need to stop looking towards the past and look to the future instead. No one is actively opressing black people. We all come out naked and screaming, we all end up cold and dead. Everything that happens in the middle is optional.
Your great grandchildren shouldn't be punished because you did something wrong though.
Also, a lack of car wouldn't stop me from getting to work. A can take a bus, I can take a cab, I can hitch a ride with a neighbor going the same way, I can get someone who works with me to give me a ride in... Gee, there seem to be a whole lot of options that would allow me to recover. And of course I'll appeal to whatever authority is in charge of such things to get my car back. But My great great grandchildren shouldn't be trying to have your great great grandchildren imprisoned because you did something wrong.
I'll assume from the Baltimore Ghetto line that this was directed at me. However I never said anything about anyone being able to build/program from a complete lack of knowledge. That's why you don't see a lot of 4 year old sysadmins.
I can completely agree with this. Voluntary help is a good thing and should be engaged in by everyone who wants to participate. Mandatory help through taxes or any other program is a BAD THING. No one should be forced to help anyone else.
The craptastic PC my uncle gave me could have been so much scrap metal if I hadn't WANTED to learn about it. No one can force anyone to want to learn something. All we can do is provide an opportunity. Plenty of non-minority people had it hard growing up. Plenty of those people bitch and whine constantly. I don't owe poor white people anything either. No one is trying to impress you with their suffering, but you do need to realize that minorities aren't the only ones that have problems.
As for me not deserving the stuff I worked for, what kind of socialist weirdo are you? How can I not deserve what I work for? I earned it. I performed a valuable serivice and I was compensated fairly for that service. I'd say I deserve what I got.
Umm, he didn't say anything about punishing anyone. but I take it YOU believe we should be rewarding people for their bad decisions?
'Oh, I guess robbing that bank and shooting those 3 tellers was just a bad decision, let's set this poor victim up in a nice townhouse and support him for life'.
The point of the $40,000 is not the absolute number $40,000 (that is simply inflation). The point of the quote is to say that if everyone is fed, clothed, well educated, and living in a decent lifestyle where they aren't forced to work crappy jobs and have financial freedom.... then they won't steal the hubcaps from your 'mobile. The point of the whole thing is to make everyone as free as possible, and instead of doing it through a communist revolution, we can do it through capitalism.
Sooo.... you want us to abolish all of those nasty menial jobs like construction workers and burger flippers so everyone can have a 'good' job. Hmmm... Ok. I'm sure we won't need any more buildings built or ditches dug for the next few years, and by that time we'll have robots to do it for us, oh wait, no that won't work... Who is going to build the manufactoring plant? Who is going to build the components? Where do we find people who are willing to do hands on labor? I guess all of those professors and techs and theorists will just have to pick up shovels and start digging, pouring concrete, etc... Even though they have NO IDEA how to build the thing because they spent the last 20 years specializing in a field. Contrary to what some people would like to believe we DO need manual laborers. And those people are going to be paid less than people who spend 6 years in college and even more time keeping current in their rapidly changing field.
No, my price for living in this society is that I pay taxes and provide a valuable service to the community. I have no obligation to provide anyone else with anything unless I have children. I can choose to give away my money, but I won't. I'll happily educate someone else if they ask me. But I'm not going to search through the baltimore getto every afternoon trying to find the 1 in 1000 kids who won't try to knife me for the 20$ I keep in my wallet.
But i need to state again that I do not favor welfare at all. The parents are esssentially hopeless... we need to give that money to the children, by means of scholarships and computers. They are the ones with the chance to rise above their situations.
Then you personally, the person who believes this should happen, can donate your time and money to it. There is absolutely NO REASON to tax this and take more money from the pockets of hardworking americans who are having a hard enough time making ends meet as it is. I applaud your willingness to make personal sacrifices for others, but I guess I'm just a little too cynical for that. Blame it on my childhood.
So if I steal your car and give it to my daughter, she shouldn't have to give it back, since she didn't steal it herself?
Your analogy is flawed. Nothing I own was ever the property of any minority, what was the property of someone else was purchased legally for a fair some of their choosing.
If you BOUGHT my car and gave it to your daughter she wouldn't have to give it back. BUT, if your great great grandfather stole my great great grandfathers horse and buggy, I'm not going to try to charge your daughter the cost of the horse and buggy. That would be ludicrous.
Bet you'd hate to be a slave, then. Hell yes I would. No one LIKES being a slave, which is why slavery no longer exists in this country. But that doesn't mean we now have a responsibility to GIVE people whos ancestors were slaves a better shot than everyone else. If we are going to start giving out PCs and net access then give one to EVERYBODY. Fair is Fair, right? Of course... I don't LIKE working, but I DO like eatting, and playing Q2 at night, and having season passes to six flags, and a car. So I WORK. And if someone wants to try and enslave me, then they are going to have to walk through a hail of bullets to do it.
Nobody said you personally had to fix it yourself. But anyone with a caring bone in their body would realize that it could just as easily have beem them born into these horrible situations. You didn't deserve to be in the life you're in - the world wasn't set up so you can have your nice white life while the bad people were made black and poor.
FUCK YOU! I WAS born into that kind of situation! My dad beat my mom, we were poor as hell, lived in a little trailer for years and years! I WORK HARD for what I get. I took years reading, researching, and learning everything I could about everything. I can pick any topic and at least know the basics. This isn't because I was born white, it's because I WORKED HARD. The nearest library was over an hour from my house. My school was 45 minutes away. The only thing within walking distance of my house is a STREAM!!
I borrowed books from my teachers, I read dictionaries and encyclopedias at school. I read my math book, my english book, and once a month I'd get to go to the library and get a few books.
I got a computer because my uncle got into the tech field and gave one to me for christmas. It was worth aout 100$ then, a 8088 system. Within 3 months I had one of the largest BBSs in north east Georgia.
So I say again, FUCK YOU. I don't 'deserve' anything except what I worked for.
And by pampering, i do not mean welfare... i mean going out of our way to see to it that black children receive scholarships (not the parents, they will never be able to get out of it) and computers. We need to give them the chance that they really do not have now.
Would that be at the expense of other people who might have EARNED a place at college? There isn't exactly an unlimited amount of space at most campuses. So for every undeserving person you force into school you are taking an opportunity away from someone who might have been trying very very hard to get a scholarship to that school.
Ummm, my family lived in an 8x24 travel trailer for several years after I was born, before moving into a slightly larger trailer. I was born white and poor. My father had some serious issues that caused him to get very paranoid and beat my mom and trash the house. Who owes me? Where's my stuff? Why isn't anyone offering me hand outs? I had a hard life! Yeah, whatever, whiny little bastards. You wanna give them cash you go right ahead. When one of them ASKS me to teach them something I will, and not a second sooner.
SO go fucking educate them. Geez. Why don't you personally get your ass out there and talk to them? It seems like you have some kind of interest in making sure these kids have the role models they need, so go be one.
Most respectfully, Bull Shit. I do not owe any minority anywhere in this country ANYTHING. My great great great great grandfather owned a huge ass plantation and a bunch of slaves. I went to high school with some of those slaves descendants. I don't owe those people anything. I haven't done anything to them. If you feel that you owe restitution to a large chunk of societ you feel free to hand over every penny you want. But I work hard for what I have and no one else is taking it away from me.
And tell me again how this is my responsibility? I just fail to see the reasoning which leads to the inevitable conclusion that *I* should be the one to go fix this. I personally don't give a shit whether some inner city kid ends up working 70 hours a week at McJob to fuel his crack habit. BFD, just means I get a hot cheese burger when I have to work late. The conditions of the poor black community just means that only the very best and brightest blacks get into the business. You'll almost never find a black sysadmin that doesn't know what he's talking about. On the other hand our white MCSE Webmaster doesn't know shit about Exchange and barely more about NT than I do. And I almost never touch NT. What we really need to do is make it harder for stupid white people to get jobs.
Kintanon PS, I'm as white as can be, and southern to boot.
Re:something to consider
on
Wearable PCs
·
· Score: 1
Umm, you at least need the visual component of the wearable comp, and something to use as an input device. Heh, and you should probably have a 300 disc CD changer hooked up to your home box, otherwise you might be stuck on the subway with the wrong CD in at home.
Screw this hour and a half crap!! They made Titanic (One of the shittiest movies I've ever seen, but a GREAT make out film!) 3 hours long! They can make Ender's Game 3 hours long! Every one of us would pay to see it, probably twice!
Xenocide was tolerable, and I haven't read Children. But Ender's Game was/is by far the best book in that series. The rest of them just seemed to lack something. Ender's Game could have stood on its own.
That was my thought EXACTLY, Anakin kid just isn't Dark enough to play Ender. Ender was a 6 yr old that acted like he had the life experience of a 60 year old. He had that great cynical, desperate, raw, something that made him great. Anakinlet just doesn't cut it.
No one is saying Abe has mad skillz or whatever the hell you want to call them. All of us for the most part have the same degree of talent. BUT, he was able to creatively apply his talent to become well known and presumabely well paid, with a minimum of effort. It's all about Creative Usage of Skills. Not just posession of skills.
Kintanon, who used his Elite Social Skillz to land a sweet job doing Tech support.
Ahem, Take a look at the social demographics of Canada. Now take a look at the social Demographics of the USA. We have a much larger and more diverse population. We have many more opportunities for disagreement between parties for one reason or another. Of course there is going to be violence.
Slashdot Mirror
Let me take this apart for you:
Then stop going on and on about it.
You're whining. Let it go.
I spoke up with an example (Me) of a non minority that had a hard time, just as many others did. I did not keep going on about it. I did however respond to other posts.
I'm well aware of that. I never said otherwise, but then when someone tells me I've been lucky to get where I am, I have enough awareness of the randomness of life not to take it as a personal insult to my integrity. I don't need to think I "deserve" anything to recognize my own self-worth, and I certainly don't need to assume that others worse off than I am are only getting what they deserve.
I suppose I'm lucky I was born with the desire and determination to learn. I'm lucky I was born in a country where that opportunity was given to me. After that I'd say it was hard work all the way.
You don't deserve anything. You "earn" whatever others give you because they decide to give it to you because it makes sense for us to build this fiction of a structure with rewards and punishments.
The details can change at any minute, and in all likelihood, they will. Some do the same work you do and get less. Some do less and get more. What does deserve have to do with it? It simply is. The meritocracy not only doesn't exist, no one really wants it to (wouldn't life suck if everything that we had, we deserved?).
Hell, even you don't really believe what you're spouting, because you've already said that some unqualified folks have positions they shouldn't have.
Let's see, it makes sense for us to build this fiction... Umm. It's a very deep seated condition to offer what you can do in exchange for what others can do. I'd say this goes back several thousand years. It's not exactly as if goods for services is a new concept or anything.
If the system changes, I'll adapt. I'll learn how to do whatever is viable. As an example, in anticipation of the possible downfall of society I know how to make candles, I know how to farm, I know how weave baskets, I learned several non-technical skills just on the off chance that our society would suddenly implode. I'm prepared for this at least marginally.
Yes, there are people who manage to get positions they aren't qualified for. Usually they are quickly removed from those positions, of course in the case of most minorities it's illegal to fire them, or you get sued out the ass.
However, I am qualified for my position and endeavoring to remain so. I earn the money I recieve. I pay a very large chunk of it in taxes. I'd say I'm already suporting enough useless crap. How about the gov. gives me back some of my money, then I might be more receptive to the idea of helping out those less fortunate.
Charles "who is sure you 'deserve' the money you're probably earning while you're posting your rants" Isbell
I am getting paid right now, I'm on salary, I work overtime which I don't get paid for. It Balances out. I do all of the work I have lined up, then I have some free time. That's one of my favorite things about this job, it's 90% non-repetitive.
Kintanon
It's only ludicrous because of the "buggy" part. If we're talking about righting wrongs that happened in reality -- rather than your silly example -- we would start by taking land away from white families that got them from land grants which excluded blacks. The economic make-up of America would be a bit different if black families owned significant portions of the west and midwest.
Wrong again. We would start with getting the fuck out of the country and giving it back to the natives. And most of the people in south american and central america would be leaving too, so that the descendants of Aztec and Mayan civilization could have their land back. How far do you want to take it? Get those bloody Normans out of England! Then get the bloody Saxons out too! Give the land back to whoever originally held it. Are we going to revert the stat of land in the world back to what it was around a few hundred BC? People need to stop looking towards the past and look to the future instead. No one is actively opressing black people. We all come out naked and screaming, we all end up cold and dead. Everything that happens in the middle is optional.
Kintanon
Your great grandchildren shouldn't be punished because you did something wrong though.
Also, a lack of car wouldn't stop me from getting to work. A can take a bus, I can take a cab, I can hitch a ride with a neighbor going the same way, I can get someone who works with me to give me a ride in... Gee, there seem to be a whole lot of options that would allow me to recover.
And of course I'll appeal to whatever authority is in charge of such things to get my car back. But My great great grandchildren shouldn't be trying to have your great great grandchildren imprisoned because you did something wrong.
Kintanon
I'll assume from the Baltimore Ghetto line that this was directed at me. However I never said anything about anyone being able to build/program from a complete lack of knowledge. That's why you don't see a lot of 4 year old sysadmins.
Kintanon
I can completely agree with this. Voluntary help is a good thing and should be engaged in by everyone who wants to participate. Mandatory help through taxes or any other program is a BAD THING.
No one should be forced to help anyone else.
Kintanon
The craptastic PC my uncle gave me could have been so much scrap metal if I hadn't WANTED to learn about it. No one can force anyone to want to learn something. All we can do is provide an opportunity. Plenty of non-minority people had it hard growing up. Plenty of those people bitch and whine constantly. I don't owe poor white people anything either. No one is trying to impress you with their suffering, but you do need to realize that minorities aren't the only ones that have problems.
As for me not deserving the stuff I worked for, what kind of socialist weirdo are you? How can I not deserve what I work for? I earned it. I performed a valuable serivice and I was compensated fairly for that service. I'd say I deserve what I got.
Kintanon
Umm, he didn't say anything about punishing anyone. but I take it YOU believe we should be rewarding people for their bad decisions?
'Oh, I guess robbing that bank and shooting those 3 tellers was just a bad decision, let's set this poor victim up in a nice townhouse and support him for life'.
Kintanon
The point of the $40,000 is not the absolute number $40,000 (that is simply inflation). The point of the quote is to say that if everyone is fed, clothed, well educated, and living in a decent lifestyle where they aren't forced to work crappy jobs and have financial freedom.... then they won't steal the hubcaps from your 'mobile. The point of the whole thing is to make everyone as free as possible, and instead of doing it through a communist revolution, we can do it through capitalism.
Sooo.... you want us to abolish all of those nasty menial jobs like construction workers and burger flippers so everyone can have a 'good' job.
Hmmm... Ok. I'm sure we won't need any more buildings built or ditches dug for the next few years, and by that time we'll have robots to do it for us, oh wait, no that won't work... Who is going to build the manufactoring plant? Who is going to build the components? Where do we find people who are willing to do hands on labor? I guess all of those professors and techs and theorists will just have to pick up shovels and start digging, pouring concrete, etc... Even though they have NO IDEA how to build the thing because they spent the last 20 years specializing in a field. Contrary to what some people would like to believe we DO need manual laborers. And those people are going to be paid less than people who spend 6 years in college and even more time keeping current in their rapidly changing field.
Kintanon
No, my price for living in this society is that I pay taxes and provide a valuable service to the community. I have no obligation to provide anyone else with anything unless I have children. I can choose to give away my money, but I won't. I'll happily educate someone else if they ask me. But I'm not going to search through the baltimore getto every afternoon trying to find the 1 in 1000 kids who won't try to knife me for the 20$ I keep in my wallet.
Kintanon
But i need to state again that I do not favor welfare at all. The parents are esssentially hopeless... we need to give that money to the children, by means of scholarships and computers. They are the ones with the chance to rise above their situations.
Then you personally, the person who believes this should happen, can donate your time and money to it. There is absolutely NO REASON to tax this and take more money from the pockets of hardworking americans who are having a hard enough time making ends meet as it is. I applaud your willingness to make personal sacrifices for others, but I guess I'm just a little too cynical for that. Blame it on my childhood.
Kintanon
So if I steal your car and give it to my daughter, she shouldn't have to give it back, since she didn't steal it herself?
Your analogy is flawed. Nothing I own was ever the property of any minority, what was the property of someone else was purchased legally for a fair some of their choosing.
If you BOUGHT my car and gave it to your daughter she wouldn't have to give it back.
BUT, if your great great grandfather stole my great great grandfathers horse and buggy, I'm not going to try to charge your daughter the cost of the horse and buggy. That would be ludicrous.
Bet you'd hate to be a slave, then.
Hell yes I would. No one LIKES being a slave, which is why slavery no longer exists in this country. But that doesn't mean we now have a responsibility to GIVE people whos ancestors were slaves a better shot than everyone else. If we are going to start giving out PCs and net access then give one to EVERYBODY. Fair is Fair, right?
Of course... I don't LIKE working, but I DO like eatting, and playing Q2 at night, and having season passes to six flags, and a car. So I WORK.
And if someone wants to try and enslave me, then they are going to have to walk through a hail of bullets to do it.
Kintanon
Nobody said you personally had to fix it yourself. But anyone with a caring bone in their body would realize that it could just as easily have beem them born into these horrible situations. You didn't deserve to be in the life you're in - the world wasn't set up so you can have your nice white life while the bad people were made black and poor.
FUCK YOU! I WAS born into that kind of situation!
My dad beat my mom, we were poor as hell, lived in a little trailer for years and years!
I WORK HARD for what I get. I took years reading, researching, and learning everything I could about everything. I can pick any topic and at least know the basics. This isn't because I was born white, it's because I WORKED HARD. The nearest library was over an hour from my house. My school was 45 minutes away. The only thing within walking distance of my house is a STREAM!!
I borrowed books from my teachers, I read dictionaries and encyclopedias at school. I read my math book, my english book, and once a month I'd get to go to the library and get a few books.
I got a computer because my uncle got into the tech field and gave one to me for christmas. It was worth aout 100$ then, a 8088 system. Within 3 months I had one of the largest BBSs in north east Georgia.
So I say again, FUCK YOU. I don't 'deserve' anything except what I worked for.
Kintanon
And by pampering, i do not mean welfare... i mean going out of our way to see to it that black children receive scholarships (not the parents, they will never be able to get out of it) and computers. We need to give them the chance that they really do not have now.
Would that be at the expense of other people who might have EARNED a place at college? There isn't exactly an unlimited amount of space at most campuses. So for every undeserving person you force into school you are taking an opportunity away from someone who might have been trying very very hard to get a scholarship to that school.
Kintanon
Ummm, my family lived in an 8x24 travel trailer for several years after I was born, before moving into a slightly larger trailer. I was born white and poor. My father had some serious issues that caused him to get very paranoid and beat my mom and trash the house. Who owes me? Where's my stuff? Why isn't anyone offering me hand outs? I had a hard life! Yeah, whatever, whiny little bastards. You wanna give them cash you go right ahead. When one of them ASKS me to teach them something I will, and not a second sooner.
Kintanon
SO go fucking educate them. Geez. Why don't you personally get your ass out there and talk to them? It seems like you have some kind of interest in making sure these kids have the role models they need, so go be one.
Kintanon
Most respectfully, Bull Shit.
I do not owe any minority anywhere in this country ANYTHING. My great great great great grandfather owned a huge ass plantation and a bunch of slaves. I went to high school with some of those slaves descendants. I don't owe those people anything. I haven't done anything to them.
If you feel that you owe restitution to a large chunk of societ you feel free to hand over every penny you want. But I work hard for what I have and no one else is taking it away from me.
Kintanon
And tell me again how this is my responsibility?
I just fail to see the reasoning which leads to the inevitable conclusion that *I* should be the one to go fix this. I personally don't give a shit whether some inner city kid ends up working 70 hours a week at McJob to fuel his crack habit. BFD, just means I get a hot cheese burger when I have to work late.
The conditions of the poor black community just means that only the very best and brightest blacks get into the business. You'll almost never find a black sysadmin that doesn't know what he's talking about. On the other hand our white MCSE Webmaster doesn't know shit about Exchange and barely more about NT than I do. And I almost never touch NT. What we really need to do is make it harder for stupid white people to get jobs.
Kintanon
PS, I'm as white as can be, and southern to boot.
Ahem,
Damn Straight.
Kintanon
Umm, you at least need the visual component of the wearable comp, and something to use as an input device.
Heh, and you should probably have a 300 disc CD changer hooked up to your home box, otherwise you might be stuck on the subway with the wrong CD in at home.
Kintanon
Learning to eat with a what?
Screw this hour and a half crap!!
They made Titanic (One of the shittiest movies I've ever seen, but a GREAT make out film!) 3 hours long! They can make Ender's Game 3 hours long! Every one of us would pay to see it, probably twice!
Kintanon
Xenocide was tolerable, and I haven't read Children. But Ender's Game was/is by far the best book in that series. The rest of them just seemed to lack something. Ender's Game could have stood on its own.
Kintanon
That was my thought EXACTLY, Anakin kid just isn't Dark enough to play Ender. Ender was a 6 yr old that acted like he had the life experience of a 60 year old. He had that great cynical, desperate, raw, something that made him great. Anakinlet just doesn't cut it.
Kintanon
Ok, I'm going to clarify this for everyone:
No one is saying Abe has mad skillz or whatever the hell you want to call them. All of us for the most part have the same degree of talent. BUT, he was able to creatively apply his talent to become well known and presumabely well paid, with a minimum of effort. It's all about Creative Usage of Skills. Not just posession of skills.
Kintanon, who used his Elite Social Skillz to land a sweet job doing Tech support.
Ahem, Take a look at the social demographics of Canada. Now take a look at the social Demographics of the USA.
We have a much larger and more diverse population.
We have many more opportunities for disagreement between parties for one reason or another.
Of course there is going to be violence.
Kintanon