"If they fault, the computer knows why and how and will put the car in limp mode, whereas a cable will just go and let the engine race. We've seen what happens."
EFI systems are more than capable of putting an engine into limp mode without having control of the throttle.
No wait, i'm lying. It wasn't the cable clamp (That would imply no throttle). It was stuck open through my error. I forget why now... Ahhhh yes.. Return spring. It's why the racing regulations called for multiple return springs:)
The criteria for this car were safety, reliability and CanIRunItIntoTheGroundOverMoreThanTenYearsWithoutItCostingAFortuneInRepairs-ability. So we went for a Toyota Corolla on our first car and when we were expecting a child, the Vibe (Toyota Matrix) as the 2nd. Well Vibe is wife's car, Corolla is now mine. The throttle response is not a huge issue, but I am just bothered that they make cars like this at all.
The next purchases will have different criteria:) I will probably get a Jeep as my primary car as I like playing off-road and I am building a lightweight 2 seater sports car as my on-road and track fun car.
Having played with cars all my adult life, experimenting with mixtures, over-lean throttle response etc, I can just tell that this throttle response issue is not mixture/airflow related. It is a mechanical delay introduced by a slow actuator or, as I am starting to gather from some posts above, a programmed in delay for economy.
Been trying to reply to this all morning. First reply I was on the train and didn't get to finish it, 2nd time I navigated away and FF lost the text... 3rd time lucky?
Right... I am under no delusion that the Vibe (I know I said Matrix but it's the same car and more people know the Matrix) is anything other than a shopping appliance. It's not actually my car, it's my wife's. I actually drive her old car - a Corolla (haha). Yeah, just getting settled in a new country so it will take a few years to get back to having a normal, manual, car. I am actually in the planning phase of building a Lotus/Caterham 7 replica from scratch. That will be my fun car that I can actually *drive* in. I will be using a throttle cable (or maybe even a double one for redundancy like in my old race cars).
Thanks for all that assistance you mention, but no thanks. I will stick to doing the driving if you don't mind.
I don't want interference from the system in this manner for TC. There are better methods, like missing a cylinder etc. I drove a Ford Appliance a few weeks back in the UK and with the 'Extra Sensory Perception' on, sporty starts were horrendous. If the TC had a chance to kick in, it shut off the throttle, the revs dropped down to way below where the power lives and you slug up through the revs slowly. With ESP off, you can get away with a little bit of wheel slippage (A certain amount is OK, especially when pulling away while turning and you are OK with the inside wheel having a bit of slippage) and keep in the power, limiting slip by modulating torque to the wheels *yourself* with the accelerator and clutch. Leave it to me please as, frankly, I can do a better job of it than your 'ESP'.
I don't want interference from the system in this manner for downshifts. If I am in the mood for sporty downshifts, I am more than capable of blipping the throttle myself - that is if the throttle response is adequate. Not an issue in our auto Vibe, granted, so the throttle response doesn't actively get in my way. Interestingly, I did not notice a huge amount of throttle lag on the Ford Appliance, so the Vibe must be particularly bad (As an example, I can be on and off the throttle completely, *before* the engine even starts to rev... just... if I'm really quick...).
I don't want interference from the system in this manner for brake override. WTF. If I want to be able to help the back round with a little left foot braking, then that should be up to me, the driver. If I am so incapable at driving that I need a computer to stop me putting my foot on the brake by mistake, then I should probably not be driving.
However, I do see how cars are going with some of the semi-auto boxes in high end sports cars that need to rev match. They need to have electronic throttles to achieve this. I have yet to drive anything modern & 'sporty' but I can't imagine liking not having a clutch pedal for controlled launches, but the paddle gear changes (NOT manumatics!) do sound kind of sexy. Maybe when I do drive something decent, my opinion of electronic throttles will change. But my point is, why have them be so appallingly bad on 'appliance' cars? It doesn't hurt to have a little throttle response. I get the economy angle, but meh.. can you at least give me an option to drive this appliance how I like?
Before this intervention, you could drive any mass produced econobox car just how you liked, but now you are prevented from doing so. I just really hate how the *driving* is being taken out of driving more and more. It is not doing us any favours in the long run, of that I am sure. We will end up as a civilisation that kind of know how to vaguely point these lethal projectiles where they want to go and that is that.
Ahh i'll be happy when I get my 7 done, I guess:)
The Bose system uses linear electromagnetic motors.
It's easy with a throttle cable. It's called throttle control. It's part of driving. People these days seem to want the car to do all the driving for them.
Yeah, I remember them. When you tap the accelerator, the engine revs in time, with no delay due to slow actuators on the low-mid range end of the market. Our Toyota Matrix pisses me off with this delay. How someone designed this and deemed it acceptable, I do not know.
Friends tell me that their cars (higher end cars) do not have a delay, but without trying it for myself, I can only give them the benefit of the doubt. Give me a throttle cable ANY DAY.
Oh and on topic. Didn't Bose (yes, the speaker people) already do this before?
Off topic, but has slashdot put lots of dropdown list boxes in the article summaries today as some kind of joke? Or is something fubarred on my firefox?
I haven't read many articles yet so haven't seen anything about it. Sure I will soon...
I guess also that nanny driving in her 1.0 micra is also doing less damage than if she was driving the same in her oversized SUV. Weight of the vehicle would have to be a factor in the billing. Maybe different classes of vehicle sizes have different g-force tax rate scales.
Scrap miles tax and petrol tax. Install g-meters on all cars (A simple module with no speed calibration or fancy GPS needed) and have a g-force tax. Nanny driving down the road in her 1.0 Micra is doing farrrr less damage in 10 miles than I do in $AnyCar when I have my foot to the floor, corner hard and brake late.
Slashdot Mirror
It entirely could be for all I know. Having only had an auto for the last few years (It's painful, so painful), I cannot say.
Like my slow appliance Corolla shitbox, for example.
As fast as any car with a throttle cable. It's all I ask.
A simple cable would have meant that problem never arose! :)
"If they fault, the computer knows why and how and will put the car in limp mode, whereas a cable will just go and let the engine race. We've seen what happens."
EFI systems are more than capable of putting an engine into limp mode without having control of the throttle.
No wait, i'm lying. It wasn't the cable clamp (That would imply no throttle). It was stuck open through my error. I forget why now... Ahhhh yes.. Return spring. It's why the racing regulations called for multiple return springs :)
The criteria for this car were safety, reliability and CanIRunItIntoTheGroundOverMoreThanTenYearsWithoutItCostingAFortuneInRepairs-ability. So we went for a Toyota Corolla on our first car and when we were expecting a child, the Vibe (Toyota Matrix) as the 2nd. Well Vibe is wife's car, Corolla is now mine. The throttle response is not a huge issue, but I am just bothered that they make cars like this at all.
The next purchases will have different criteria :) I will probably get a Jeep as my primary car as I like playing off-road and I am building a lightweight 2 seater sports car as my on-road and track fun car.
Having played with cars all my adult life, experimenting with mixtures, over-lean throttle response etc, I can just tell that this throttle response issue is not mixture/airflow related. It is a mechanical delay introduced by a slow actuator or, as I am starting to gather from some posts above, a programmed in delay for economy.
I had it once, on a racecar. I think I forgot to tighten the cable clamp after doing some work on the car. Oops.
Not the cable's fault though. If carefully maintained, a cable is very reliable.
What I don't know is how reliable the mechanism is on the electronic throttle actuator. How do I know that it won't get jammed WOT?
Been trying to reply to this all morning. First reply I was on the train and didn't get to finish it, 2nd time I navigated away and FF lost the text... 3rd time lucky?
Right... I am under no delusion that the Vibe (I know I said Matrix but it's the same car and more people know the Matrix) is anything other than a shopping appliance. It's not actually my car, it's my wife's. I actually drive her old car - a Corolla (haha). Yeah, just getting settled in a new country so it will take a few years to get back to having a normal, manual, car. I am actually in the planning phase of building a Lotus/Caterham 7 replica from scratch. That will be my fun car that I can actually *drive* in. I will be using a throttle cable (or maybe even a double one for redundancy like in my old race cars).
Thanks for all that assistance you mention, but no thanks. I will stick to doing the driving if you don't mind.
I don't want interference from the system in this manner for TC. There are better methods, like missing a cylinder etc. I drove a Ford Appliance a few weeks back in the UK and with the 'Extra Sensory Perception' on, sporty starts were horrendous. If the TC had a chance to kick in, it shut off the throttle, the revs dropped down to way below where the power lives and you slug up through the revs slowly. With ESP off, you can get away with a little bit of wheel slippage (A certain amount is OK, especially when pulling away while turning and you are OK with the inside wheel having a bit of slippage) and keep in the power, limiting slip by modulating torque to the wheels *yourself* with the accelerator and clutch. Leave it to me please as, frankly, I can do a better job of it than your 'ESP'.
I don't want interference from the system in this manner for downshifts. If I am in the mood for sporty downshifts, I am more than capable of blipping the throttle myself - that is if the throttle response is adequate. Not an issue in our auto Vibe, granted, so the throttle response doesn't actively get in my way. Interestingly, I did not notice a huge amount of throttle lag on the Ford Appliance, so the Vibe must be particularly bad (As an example, I can be on and off the throttle completely, *before* the engine even starts to rev... just... if I'm really quick...).
I don't want interference from the system in this manner for brake override. WTF. If I want to be able to help the back round with a little left foot braking, then that should be up to me, the driver. If I am so incapable at driving that I need a computer to stop me putting my foot on the brake by mistake, then I should probably not be driving.
However, I do see how cars are going with some of the semi-auto boxes in high end sports cars that need to rev match. They need to have electronic throttles to achieve this. I have yet to drive anything modern & 'sporty' but I can't imagine liking not having a clutch pedal for controlled launches, but the paddle gear changes (NOT manumatics!) do sound kind of sexy. Maybe when I do drive something decent, my opinion of electronic throttles will change. But my point is, why have them be so appallingly bad on 'appliance' cars? It doesn't hurt to have a little throttle response. I get the economy angle, but meh.. can you at least give me an option to drive this appliance how I like?
Before this intervention, you could drive any mass produced econobox car just how you liked, but now you are prevented from doing so. I just really hate how the *driving* is being taken out of driving more and more. It is not doing us any favours in the long run, of that I am sure. We will end up as a civilisation that kind of know how to vaguely point these lethal projectiles where they want to go and that is that.
Ahh i'll be happy when I get my 7 done, I guess :)
The Bose system uses linear electromagnetic motors.
It's easy with a throttle cable. It's called throttle control. It's part of driving. People these days seem to want the car to do all the driving for them.
+1 PosterIsADriver
Mechanical throttle cables?
Yeah, I remember them. When you tap the accelerator, the engine revs in time, with no delay due to slow actuators on the low-mid range end of the market. Our Toyota Matrix pisses me off with this delay. How someone designed this and deemed it acceptable, I do not know.
Friends tell me that their cars (higher end cars) do not have a delay, but without trying it for myself, I can only give them the benefit of the doubt. Give me a throttle cable ANY DAY.
Oh and on topic. Didn't Bose (yes, the speaker people) already do this before?
Tom...
I fear you missed my point.
I think he should do the Model T first as there will be less waste.
Well on mine (some time in the 80's?) I know I wrote an analogue clock program for it. It's not a game, right.
You didn't watch the video then? He clearly states that you can use it in your CD-ROM drive.
Ahh nevermind. I should have scrolled down... "SlashTweaks Let YOU Micro-Edit Slashdot" *sigh* :)
Off topic, but has slashdot put lots of dropdown list boxes in the article summaries today as some kind of joke? Or is something fubarred on my firefox?
I haven't read many articles yet so haven't seen anything about it. Sure I will soon...
Not to mention all of the many uses for fire that could be marketed. I mean for one, do people want fire that can be fitted nasally?
Is it 2000 again?
I'm in Canada and it's like too many spoons when all you need is a knife. Eh.
I guess also that nanny driving in her 1.0 micra is also doing less damage than if she was driving the same in her oversized SUV. Weight of the vehicle would have to be a factor in the billing. Maybe different classes of vehicle sizes have different g-force tax rate scales.
Scrap miles tax and petrol tax. Install g-meters on all cars (A simple module with no speed calibration or fancy GPS needed) and have a g-force tax. Nanny driving down the road in her 1.0 Micra is doing farrrr less damage in 10 miles than I do in $AnyCar when I have my foot to the floor, corner hard and brake late.
Stacker!