"Secondly, while I certainly agree that whatever you put into that form ends up going into their database as well, I'd like to pose a stupid question: how ELSE are they going to identify the person requesting the data?"
OK Sparky, I'll tell you. Start by allowing the user to enter any given piece. Search. If multiple results, inform user they must provide further info. Repeat.
In this manner, the user is in control of how much they feel comfortable giving just to see what info this particular entity "already" possesses?
Not at all the point. Explain why I should verify their database for them explicitly so they can shove directed advertising my way. I *know* they don't have accurate info on me because I've seen what "they" have from other sources. Why should I improve their blipvert serving?
And if you're amongst that "almost", you should fill out their database why? I avoided it for precisely the reason the GP stated. It they *don't* already have it, I'm not giving it willingly.
Cities happened because that's where people congregated to make stuff, essentially. That is no longer the case or even necessary and people now want the open space our species grew up in. The only thing perverse about a city is that it *is* a hive and people don't like living in hives.
Oh, and the people that want to force others to live in hives.
"its not a happy conclusion, but 50 years ago russia 'did science'"
They did so much science that they never figured out how to get to the moon, one of their objectives. Their "science" was also much more closely related to an M80 than ours was. I'd say we did it better.
You forgot "then the system is abandoned for something else". That's what is happening right now. Massive online courses are forcing college to rethink and adjust, it's lower school's turn now with private and charter competition.
Our education system was for having an educated electorate - not for free training for Wal-Mart and McDonald's.
That mentality has to change and we need to basically tell American business that if they want trained workers, THEY need to do it themselves and stop passing their costs onto the public.
What *exactly* are you talking about? Learning to read, math, typing? What is it exactly that big business snuck in? Showing up on time? Classess? What?
"... have the nerve to put the blame on the average citizen when THEY have the power to change things."
So you and all the other ACs exhorting people to "step up and change the system" is really just bullshit propoganda on your parts because you already know that big scary business is what really controls things?
"If I just stop shopping there, they won't even know they've lost a customer, let alone know why so they can improve it."
Your logical fallacy is presuming the schools don't know what's wrong. They do, they've been told many times. The bureaucracy does not want to change.
Since the rest of your argument depends from this presumption, you might want to rework it.
If you do not understand the importance of keeping your children out of a cauldron of people who do not care, I can only assume you have no children.
"...it's to give specific, targeted, constructive feedback on what is wrong."
Everyone knows that's a step and anyone acting like it hasn't already been done is being disingenuous at best. There have been *huge* litanies about the things that are wrong with public schools. Those reasons are known and have been pointed out to those running the system many times.
It doesn't work because a school is not like a business. A business wants to improve because customers CAN leave. Schools have no incentive to make things better if the parents CAN'T leave because schools are essentially paid by head count. So, naturally they want to disallow migration.
Now, what to do when you DO do all those things and the schools still crumble into disfunctionality?
Great, don't count lines. Measure quality of output. Measure accuracy in meeting objectives.
But, those are measurements too, aren't they?
Are you seriously suggesting that a working environment exert no effort in determining of its workers are actually worth their salaries?
Test scores are not for competition, they're to inform the parent of the child's progress. That some people see them that way in no way negates their worth.
"Why not make the schools funded by states instead of cities?"
Because typically, rural school districts are run better than urban districts might be a good reason. The worst districts are in cities.,
If instead you had posited that we make cities apply their money evenly across the board AND apply strict spending oversight AND re-institute reform schooling to handle the kids who only want to tear down everything, I might agree with you.
States are indeed real, theiy're a specific kind of collective. You're just saying (and I agree) that they are not homogenous collectives.
"One example would be private schools that are affordable and do not set unrealistic entry standards to intentionally keep out what the management perceive as unsavoury segments of society. "
That's called public school. If you don't want to attend and will be disruptive, a private school is not the place for you. It's usually in the charter and agreement you sign along with all the other parents. You realize precluding the non-cooperative is precluding the unsavory, correct?
If you're under the impression that private schools are viewing race as unsavory, you need to read some statistics on enrollment and do some economic pondering. A tuition from a cooperative student is a tuition in the bank and parents of all races would prefer their kids' education not be disrupted by those who would do so.
As for altruism, it is used for just as much evil and incompetence by organizations of all stripes as any other motivation. Motivations and results are two ends of the pole and you cannot tell from motivation what the results will be.
Well, some tiny percentage of us on SlashDot have interfaced with the opposite sex and had chlldren. Therefore, to those of us with exo-basement life experience, it is of interest when the **Managing Editor** of Slates' Double X sees fit to libel private schooling parents.
She effectively owns a forum and now we are expressing our push back in ours.
Given the known circumstances (ie: public schools are *known* for money misuse), it's a better assumption than it looks like on the surface. True, the assumption they *won't* misuse the money is a little honey-flavored, but one frequently views the unknown optimistically when the known is so grim.
"Lots" is such a scary, unsupported "number", isn't it?
Slashdot Mirror
"Secondly, while I certainly agree that whatever you put into that form ends up going into their database as well, I'd like to pose a stupid question: how ELSE are they going to identify the person requesting the data?"
OK Sparky, I'll tell you. Start by allowing the user to enter any given piece. Search. If multiple results, inform user they must provide further info. Repeat.
In this manner, the user is in control of how much they feel comfortable giving just to see what info this particular entity "already" possesses?
Not at all the point. Explain why I should verify their database for them explicitly so they can shove directed advertising my way. I *know* they don't have accurate info on me because I've seen what "they" have from other sources. Why should I improve their blipvert serving?
If any site asks you things of that nature, *always* deny. Screw the veracity of their stored data.
And if you're amongst that "almost", you should fill out their database why? I avoided it for precisely the reason the GP stated. It they *don't* already have it, I'm not giving it willingly.
Cities happened because that's where people congregated to make stuff, essentially. That is no longer the case or even necessary and people now want the open space our species grew up in. The only thing perverse about a city is that it *is* a hive and people don't like living in hives.
Oh, and the people that want to force others to live in hives.
As you are not a fan of satire.
"its not a happy conclusion, but 50 years ago russia 'did science'"
They did so much science that they never figured out how to get to the moon, one of their objectives. Their "science" was also much more closely related to an M80 than ours was. I'd say we did it better.
They blew the holy shit out of a butt load of cosmonauts though, didn't they? Their space program makes our shuttle explosion look like a tire leak.
Oh, they'd be in the home now, they'd just be less advanced and the OSs sould be FAR more geek oriented. That's a bad thing, by the way.
Ethics.
Yes, actually you do when said elected official proceeds to set things up for a permanent residency.
You forgot "then the system is abandoned for something else". That's what is happening right now. Massive online courses are forcing college to rethink and adjust, it's lower school's turn now with private and charter competition.
Competition - it's what's good for ya. .
Abbreviated for accuracy: "You don't need a post graduate degree to succeed."
What *exactly* are you talking about? Learning to read, math, typing? What is it exactly that big business snuck in? Showing up on time? Classess? What?
"... have the nerve to put the blame on the average citizen when THEY have the power to change things."
So you and all the other ACs exhorting people to "step up and change the system" is really just bullshit propoganda on your parts because you already know that big scary business is what really controls things?
Explain the conundrum.
"If I just stop shopping there, they won't even know they've lost a customer, let alone know why so they can improve it."
Your logical fallacy is presuming the schools don't know what's wrong. They do, they've been told many times. The bureaucracy does not want to change.
Since the rest of your argument depends from this presumption, you might want to rework it.
If you do not understand the importance of keeping your children out of a cauldron of people who do not care, I can only assume you have no children.
Only because private schools exist is it not a monopoly. I can always divest myself of my shares in an enterprise, by the way.
"...it's to give specific, targeted, constructive feedback on what is wrong."
Everyone knows that's a step and anyone acting like it hasn't already been done is being disingenuous at best. There have been *huge* litanies about the things that are wrong with public schools. Those reasons are known and have been pointed out to those running the system many times.
It doesn't work because a school is not like a business. A business wants to improve because customers CAN leave. Schools have no incentive to make things better if the parents CAN'T leave because schools are essentially paid by head count. So, naturally they want to disallow migration.
Now, what to do when you DO do all those things and the schools still crumble into disfunctionality?
Says the AC with no children or experience in the matter, only undergraduate social studies courses.
The world does not work as you would wish to paint it, Sparky.
He knows that. Tests are used to determine the grades and to provide backup for the decision.
Great, don't count lines. Measure quality of output. Measure accuracy in meeting objectives.
But, those are measurements too, aren't they?
Are you seriously suggesting that a working environment exert no effort in determining of its workers are actually worth their salaries?
Test scores are not for competition, they're to inform the parent of the child's progress. That some people see them that way in no way negates their worth.
"But not allowing parents to flee to private schools would increase the quality of public schools."
More importantly, by not allowing parents to flee a bad situation, you institute slavery.
"Why not make the schools funded by states instead of cities?"
Because typically, rural school districts are run better than urban districts might be a good reason. The worst districts are in cities.,
If instead you had posited that we make cities apply their money evenly across the board AND apply strict spending oversight AND re-institute reform schooling to handle the kids who only want to tear down everything, I might agree with you.
States are indeed real, theiy're a specific kind of collective. You're just saying (and I agree) that they are not homogenous collectives.
"One example would be private schools that are affordable and do not set unrealistic entry standards to intentionally keep out what the management perceive as unsavoury segments of society. "
That's called public school. If you don't want to attend and will be disruptive, a private school is not the place for you. It's usually in the charter and agreement you sign along with all the other parents. You realize precluding the non-cooperative is precluding the unsavory, correct?
If you're under the impression that private schools are viewing race as unsavory, you need to read some statistics on enrollment and do some economic pondering. A tuition from a cooperative student is a tuition in the bank and parents of all races would prefer their kids' education not be disrupted by those who would do so.
As for altruism, it is used for just as much evil and incompetence by organizations of all stripes as any other motivation. Motivations and results are two ends of the pole and you cannot tell from motivation what the results will be.
Well, some tiny percentage of us on SlashDot have interfaced with the opposite sex and had chlldren. Therefore, to those of us with exo-basement life experience, it is of interest when the **Managing Editor** of Slates' Double X sees fit to libel private schooling parents.
She effectively owns a forum and now we are expressing our push back in ours.
Given the known circumstances (ie: public schools are *known* for money misuse), it's a better assumption than it looks like on the surface. True, the assumption they *won't* misuse the money is a little honey-flavored, but one frequently views the unknown optimistically when the known is so grim.
"Lots" is such a scary, unsupported "number", isn't it?