1. Downloadable ISO: not many will try, just the usual geeks sitting on large pipes. Many HW config to mess with (unsupported, poor hardware) and spoil the Apple plug and play feel. Even if they got it on PC mags (those willing to give up MS ads) how many "unwased" would dare re-part-it-un their "drivers"... naah! Knoppix can handle this pretty well, why not apple? I know I would try Mac if there weren't a huge cost assosiated with trying it.
Middle level users! High end users have already tried it and low level users will use whatever $friend/relative will install them.
The people that understand what OS is, know and want to install applications, have some insight about the inner working of the computer.
They're also the people who are the least welcome to the Linux world at the moment. They are the folk who love the idea of Samba, routing etc but who at the moment lack the technical expertise to use those features. They might have even tried Linux but they've been intimidated away by more complex inner workings of Linux.
For them it's a very real technical problem. I should know, I'm one of them and the only reason there isn't a Linux box in my network is the difficulty of running Linux based servers when you only have Windows experience.
So basically you're advocating Apple to do the masses a favour and close shop, right? Or perhaps give computers out for free? Sorry, but you're unreasonable; athough clearly you're suggesting Apple is unreasonable...;-)
Buy a Mac, try it out, and if you don't like it, Ebay it. Odds are that if you Ebay it within the first 6 months you'll recoup 85-90% of your initial cost. Try that with any Dell...
That's NOT a solution for the great masses. For a few single users? Sure. But not for the great majority of the people, hell, they dont even know what ebay is.
And if worse came to worse, you can install Linux on your mac hardware.
We're speaking about Windows users, they'll most certainly try Linux first and if it is ok they wont try mac... if it's not then it's a loss situation.
Macs are expensive to try. I wouldn't waste 1000$ just to see if I like the OS or not. That's the problem with 'em. Most people aren't going to take the risk that they're not going to like mac and lose 1000$.
For the love of $deity, shouldn't we work on answering the question of the ask slashdot-guy based upon his premisises (free is good.) and not try to to make choices based on ideological ground? He wants free beer, not free speech software. Some people might not like it but if you're saying he should get OSS because you prefer it out of ideological reason you're not trying to help him, you're trying to push your personal agenda.
And apologies to danielsfca2, this post isn't aimed against you but this was the best place for it.
Warning, snippage included CygWin the Linux-like environment for Windows. PuTTY a free SSH client for Windows. VNC remote controll software, NOTE: the location is no longer on the ATT Labs UK site. GNU-EMacs for Windows. I usually install it, but use Vi more. Dev-C++ a free C++ compiler. I use VC++ 6.0, but this is free, and I think it's pretty good.
For a home system? For a developer box? yeah. but for a home system?
But barring that, you deserver +5 Informative for mentioning nethack.
1) Firewall. You will need a good firewall. I've had good experience with Sygate personal firewall. But I'm by no means expert on this.
2) New Browser. Some people are happy with IE but most appreciate the choice. I suggest Opera. As a plus, that'll also include a mail program but I cant comment about that.
3) Audio. Winamp is the winner here, hands down.
4) Video. If you're unhappy with WMP I suggest ZoomPlayer. Remember to download few codec packs too.
5) This isn't really something to buy but I'll say it anyway. Newest service pack/patches. When starting from a clean table they're much easier to install and it's good to start with a patched computer, even if you're too lazy to keep it that way.
Oh and links: www.sygate.com www.opera.com www.winamp. com http://www.inmatrix.com/files/zoomplayer_down load. shtml
Politicians are regular Joe Blow's as well, and until someone comes around and starts preaching responsibility to people who get themselves involved in something as big as the Internet, the only other option is centralizing the network to dumb it down.
They say we should give the responsibility to the end user because politicians can't handle it because "spammers are more technically savvy then politicians". Is it true? Yes. However, I'd say that even politicians are even more tech savvy then Joe Emailer.
This is yet another piece of their tired rhetoric full of holes. Take it with a bucket of salt.
Current Linux tactic of trying to reach both ends and only the ends of the bell curve is foolish because it means a lot of work to gain really small audiences. The day when (kernel) compiling is a doubleclick issue and when all the server programs ship with pretty and clean GUI is the level when the most prospective future Linux users will join. Why? Because there's a huge amount of people out there who'd basically want advanced linux but easier! To them commandline is the ultimate obstacle to Linux migration. I Know my household will lose one Windows installation the day I can get a distro that's geared towards GUI based server management.
I find it really amazing that people that are supposedly literate computer users find Linux difficult. Geez... My mom who is 78 started using RedHat Linux when she was 74 with RedHat 6.2. I have since upgraded her system to RedHat 9. She never used a computer before and after a total of 2 hrs training she has few if any problems since then.
People here that say they 'Just can't get the GUIs to work' must either be lame or lying about it. IF my mom can do it, then what excuse do you have? geez.......
Problem is that Linux is ready for the both ends of the bell curve but they ignore the middle ground where the majority is. Yes if you're a programming wizard and an administrator extradordinaire you'll master Linux in no time. If you don't ever do anything more complex then write email you're there. If you like to try new software, maybe run a few servers but are too timid to visit the difficult land of commandline? No Way In Hell.
I think it's interesting that there is what appears to be a "core" part of the Fedora team focused on artwork.
This, alone, is an excellent move by RedHat to compete with Microsoft in a space they clearly lead the market - desktop UI.
As the Fedora site says, "Making things look pretty is the name of the game."
Unfortunately what needs improvement is the GUIs of the programs, not the desktop itself. Even the best desktop is no use if 2/3 of programs have awful GUI or are commandline only.
Okay, the Slashdot crowd is probably quite a bit more tech-savvy than our old pal Bubba, clicking away at every link that arrives in his inbox and updating his software only when he buys a new machine with it.
But I'm not sure penalizing Bubba is the right answer. Maybe Bubba is ignorant; on the other hand, he might have a legitimate mental handicap. How much responsibility should someone with Alzheimer's disease or a learning disability carry? What about someone who's simply too old or too young to grasp security issues? Where should the line be drawn, and how could we charge according to ability? And how much would it cost to administer such a program?
Even better, should we really create a law that ~95% of people cant obey, for reasons that they do not agree on?
What we need to do is be developing newer, fresher ideas which keep microsoft on their toes - if we do that then at least MS has to keep coming up with the goods. My point is that a line of copies doesn't work - the average user doesn't care about the inside workings - they want results. I'll take the handheld game market as an example - How many gameboy clones have we seen come and disappear, doomed to sit in the back pages of children's catalogs? What we need as I have said too many times in this post is something new. There is more than one way to do it and until OSs capitalises on that and jumps into that niche, there is little hope of removing MS's stranglehold on the market.
May I suggest an even more radical solution? Market research! Get a large group of windows users, give them a Linux desktop and tell them to complain and make requests! Linux was made great not because it was made by programmers for programmers but because it was made by USERS for USERS. How about leaving behind the old notion that only code matters and let the current userbase show the way and help developement? Of course some will disagree with this but I claim that a good opinion about UI or insight about possible uses for programs are as important as code.
Seriously, it seems that RIAA and OSS have one thing in common. Both make a whatever product they want to create and then blame the users for lack of interest.
Um, why do it at the DNS level? How about the next version of Mozilla includes a domain name correction? Type ahead does this to some degree, but a dictionary based system should work ok for many sites that aren't in browser history.
www.eexample.com
I'm sorry dave, you can't go there * Redirects to www.example.com *
I dont want to have to think whether the www.address.com is the DNS version or the version of my ISP is paid to serve or the version my browser gives...
I don't want them filtering anything for me thank you. I can take care of myself. Next thing they'll be stripping attachments off of email and blocking content. Let internet Darwinism take it's course, only the strong will survive,a nd when all these people get tired of the insecure crap that windows is, maybe, just maybe they'll vote with their dollars to not support MS anymore.
The problem with giving people what they want is that they might not want the same thing as you. People might very well think that familiarity is more important then security.
Then you (as well as your employers) are very short sighted. I could well be using those ports. Many software programs that dynamically allocate ports likely will use some ports you block, and users applications will just fail "randomly". And, of course, your tech support people will deny all knowledge of it. Or, in the case of well known ports such as port 135 mentioned in the original posting, I've actually used port 135 to share entire windows directory structures across the Internet (between a system in Indiana and one in North Carolina). It was slick and very handy, although too few understand how cleanly (and safely) this can be set up and made to work. How can slashdot readers really advocate ISPs blocking the utility of the service we buy because some people who also buy it are too lazy to learn to use it properly?
And how can you demand people to learn computer security if you think it's excessive to require you to opt-out from the isp firewall?
Teaching them grep and stuff couldn't hurt. It'd be more useful than two-column proofs, which NOONE ever uses.
That just proves that maybe we shouldn't teach them two-column proofs. There are countless things out there that would be good for a kid to know but we must prioritize and I see no reason to put *nix knowledge to a high place on that ladder.
How long does it take to teach someone how to use e-mail, once they know how to use the hardware and the operating system? Oh, five minutes maybe. Word processing? Thirty minutes. Keyboard and mouse? Gee, mice are designed to be EASY to use and keyboards -- well, keyboards are pretty standard and nothing new, having been used on typewriters for over a hundred years. And I never said to cut back on English or mathematics (except maybe, now come to think of it, to get rid of the stuff from math that's even more useless than you claim Unix usership to be, i.e. two-column proofs). Rather, I said that the basics of Unix should be taught. If all people can use is Windows, the first time they run into a Mac (probably in college, but maybe later) they'll crap their pants. Heaven forbid they actually encounter a Linux box.
Yes, i think that everything joe average must know about computers can be taught in a handful of hours.
And to have hours to teach unix you must either increase total amount of hours or not teach something else.
And most people will never see Unix box in their lives. remember that not everyone goes to college.
Sure, I have nothing against showing how to start OOo in Linux or in Mac or how to check email using multiple clients. But you cannot really say those are the core business of Unix.
It seems to me you're saying that we should teach kids how to use grep and other *nix tools and I do not see any reason to do it when vast majority would get much greater advantage from learning something else.
Slashdot Mirror
It really bothers me when the government tries to legislate morality.
Murder is wr... no wait, that'd be legislating morality. Can you tell us how you'd create laws that have no basis on morality?
1. Downloadable ISO: not many will try, just the usual geeks sitting on large pipes. Many HW config to mess with (unsupported, poor hardware) and spoil the Apple plug and play feel. Even if they got it on PC mags (those willing to give up MS ads) how many "unwased" would dare re-part-it-un their "drivers"... naah! Knoppix can handle this pretty well, why not apple? I know I would try Mac if there weren't a huge cost assosiated with trying it.
Who are the most likely to try Linux atm?
Middle level users! High end users have already tried it and low level users will use whatever $friend/relative will install them.
The people that understand what OS is, know and want to install applications, have some insight about the inner working of the computer.
They're also the people who are the least welcome to the Linux world at the moment. They are the folk who love the idea of Samba, routing etc but who at the moment lack the technical expertise to use those features. They might have even tried Linux but they've been intimidated away by more complex inner workings of Linux.
For them it's a very real technical problem. I should know, I'm one of them and the only reason there isn't a Linux box in my network is the difficulty of running Linux based servers when you only have Windows experience.
So basically you're advocating Apple to do the masses a favour and close shop, right? Or perhaps give computers out for free? Sorry, but you're unreasonable; athough clearly you're suggesting Apple is unreasonable... ;-)
How about a free demo version of OS X for x86?
Buy a Mac, try it out, and if you don't like it, Ebay it. Odds are that if you Ebay it within the first 6 months you'll recoup 85-90% of your initial cost. Try that with any Dell...
That's NOT a solution for the great masses. For a few single users? Sure. But not for the great majority of the people, hell, they dont even know what ebay is.
And if worse came to worse, you can install Linux on your mac hardware.
We're speaking about Windows users, they'll most certainly try Linux first and if it is ok they wont try mac... if it's not then it's a loss situation.
Macs are expensive to try. I wouldn't waste 1000$ just to see if I like the OS or not. That's the problem with 'em. Most people aren't going to take the risk that they're not going to like mac and lose 1000$.
Just me to forget most important part of computing. Communication! mIRC(win), KVirc(linux), BitchX(linux), Trillian(win), Jabber.
l lian.cc
mIRC and KVirc are both quite good IRC-clients. Warning, might cause addiction on teenagers and lonely housewives.
Linkage:
www.mirc.com
www.jabber.org
www.tri
www.kvirc.net
www.bitchx.org
For the love of $deity, shouldn't we work on answering the question of the ask slashdot-guy based upon his premisises (free is good.) and not try to to make choices based on ideological ground? He wants free beer, not free speech software. Some people might not like it but if you're saying he should get OSS because you prefer it out of ideological reason you're not trying to help him, you're trying to push your personal agenda.
And apologies to danielsfca2, this post isn't aimed against you but this was the best place for it.
Warning, snippage included
CygWin the Linux-like environment for Windows.
PuTTY a free SSH client for Windows.
VNC remote controll software, NOTE: the location is no longer on the ATT Labs UK site.
GNU-EMacs for Windows. I usually install it, but use Vi more.
Dev-C++ a free C++ compiler. I use VC++ 6.0, but this is free, and I think it's pretty good.
For a home system? For a developer box? yeah. but for a home system?
But barring that, you deserver +5 Informative for mentioning nethack.
1) Firewall. You will need a good firewall. I've had good experience with Sygate personal firewall. But I'm by no means expert on this.
. comn load. shtml
2) New Browser. Some people are happy with IE but most appreciate the choice. I suggest Opera. As a plus, that'll also include a mail program but I cant comment about that.
3) Audio. Winamp is the winner here, hands down.
4) Video. If you're unhappy with WMP I suggest ZoomPlayer. Remember to download few codec packs too.
5) This isn't really something to buy but I'll say it anyway. Newest service pack/patches. When starting from a clean table they're much easier to install and it's good to start with a patched computer, even if you're too lazy to keep it that way.
Oh and links:
www.sygate.com
www.opera.com
www.winamp
http://www.inmatrix.com/files/zoomplayer_dow
Those should get you started.
Politicians are regular Joe Blow's as well, and until someone comes around and starts preaching responsibility to people who get themselves involved in something as big as the Internet, the only other option is centralizing the network to dumb it down.
And guess which option are they going to choose?
Yet another piece of libertarian propaganda.
They say we should give the responsibility to the end user because politicians can't handle it because "spammers are more technically savvy then politicians". Is it true? Yes. However, I'd say that even politicians are even more tech savvy then Joe Emailer.
This is yet another piece of their tired rhetoric full of holes. Take it with a bucket of salt.
Perhaps it's a time for Ask Slashdot: Why aren't you switching to Linux?
Excellent chance to see what Linux is lacking and perhaps maybe even show few people that Linux has the options they think it lacks!
I couldn't agree more!
Current Linux tactic of trying to reach both ends and only the ends of the bell curve is foolish because it means a lot of work to gain really small audiences. The day when (kernel) compiling is a doubleclick issue and when all the server programs ship with pretty and clean GUI is the level when the most prospective future Linux users will join. Why? Because there's a huge amount of people out there who'd basically want advanced linux but easier! To them commandline is the ultimate obstacle to Linux migration. I Know my household will lose one Windows installation the day I can get a distro that's geared towards GUI based server management.
Is Intel pushing MS Windows now?
Intel > procs and chipsets > DRM > MS Windows
Propably not. They're just trying to prevent the dragon chip from becoming de facto standard for that marketplace.
I find it really amazing that people that are supposedly literate computer users find Linux difficult. Geez... My mom who is 78 started using RedHat Linux when she was 74 with RedHat 6.2. I have since upgraded her system to RedHat 9. She never used a computer before and after a total of 2 hrs training she has few if any problems since then.
People here that say they 'Just can't get the GUIs to work' must either be lame or lying about it. IF my mom can do it, then what excuse do you have?
geez.......
Problem is that Linux is ready for the both ends of the bell curve but they ignore the middle ground where the majority is. Yes if you're a programming wizard and an administrator extradordinaire you'll master Linux in no time. If you don't ever do anything more complex then write email you're there. If you like to try new software, maybe run a few servers but are too timid to visit the difficult land of commandline? No Way In Hell.
I think it's interesting that there is what appears to be a "core" part of the Fedora team focused on artwork.
This, alone, is an excellent move by RedHat to compete with Microsoft in a space they clearly lead the market - desktop UI.
As the Fedora site says, "Making things look pretty is the name of the game."
Unfortunately what needs improvement is the GUIs of the programs, not the desktop itself. Even the best desktop is no use if 2/3 of programs have awful GUI or are commandline only.
Okay, the Slashdot crowd is probably quite a bit more tech-savvy than our old pal Bubba, clicking away at every link that arrives in his inbox and updating his software only when he buys a new machine with it.
But I'm not sure penalizing Bubba is the right answer. Maybe Bubba is ignorant; on the other hand, he might have a legitimate mental handicap. How much responsibility should someone with Alzheimer's disease or a learning disability carry? What about someone who's simply too old or too young to grasp security issues? Where should the line be drawn, and how could we charge according to ability? And how much would it cost to administer such a program?
Even better, should we really create a law that ~95% of people cant obey, for reasons that they do not agree on?
What we need to do is be developing newer, fresher ideas which keep microsoft on their toes - if we do that then at least MS has to keep coming up with the goods. My point is that a line of copies doesn't work - the average user doesn't care about the inside workings - they want results. I'll take the handheld game market as an example - How many gameboy clones have we seen come and disappear, doomed to sit in the back pages of children's catalogs? What we need as I have said too many times in this post is something new. There is more than one way to do it and until OSs capitalises on that and jumps into that niche, there is little hope of removing MS's stranglehold on the market.
May I suggest an even more radical solution? Market research! Get a large group of windows users, give them a Linux desktop and tell them to complain and make requests! Linux was made great not because it was made by programmers for programmers but because it was made by USERS for USERS. How about leaving behind the old notion that only code matters and let the current userbase show the way and help developement? Of course some will disagree with this but I claim that a good opinion about UI or insight about possible uses for programs are as important as code.
Seriously, it seems that RIAA and OSS have one thing in common. Both make a whatever product they want to create and then blame the users for lack of interest.
Um, why do it at the DNS level? How about the next version of Mozilla includes a domain name correction? Type ahead does this to some degree, but a dictionary based system should work ok for many sites that aren't in browser history.
www.eexample.com
I'm sorry dave, you can't go there * Redirects to www.example.com *
I dont want to have to think whether the www.address.com is the DNS version or the version of my ISP is paid to serve or the version my browser gives...
I don't want them filtering anything for me thank you. I can take care of myself. Next thing they'll be stripping attachments off of email and blocking content. Let internet Darwinism take it's course, only the strong will survive,a nd when all these people get tired of the insecure crap that windows is, maybe, just maybe they'll vote with their dollars to not support MS anymore.
The problem with giving people what they want is that they might not want the same thing as you. People might very well think that familiarity is more important then security.
Then you (as well as your employers) are very short sighted. I could well be using those ports. Many software programs that dynamically allocate ports likely will use some ports you block, and users applications will just fail "randomly". And, of course, your tech support people will deny all knowledge of it. Or, in the case of well known ports such as port 135 mentioned in the original posting, I've actually used port 135 to share entire windows directory structures across the Internet (between a system in Indiana and one in North Carolina). It was slick and very handy, although too few understand how cleanly (and safely) this can be set up and made to work. How can slashdot readers really advocate ISPs blocking the utility of the service we buy because some people who also buy it are too lazy to learn to use it properly?
And how can you demand people to learn computer security if you think it's excessive to require you to opt-out from the isp firewall?
Teaching them grep and stuff couldn't hurt. It'd be more useful than two-column proofs, which NOONE ever uses.
That just proves that maybe we shouldn't teach them two-column proofs. There are countless things out there that would be good for a kid to know but we must prioritize and I see no reason to put *nix knowledge to a high place on that ladder.
How long does it take to teach someone how to use e-mail, once they know how to use the hardware and the operating system? Oh, five minutes maybe. Word processing? Thirty minutes. Keyboard and mouse? Gee, mice are designed to be EASY to use and keyboards -- well, keyboards are pretty standard and nothing new, having been used on typewriters for over a hundred years. And I never said to cut back on English or mathematics (except maybe, now come to think of it, to get rid of the stuff from math that's even more useless than you claim Unix usership to be, i.e. two-column proofs). Rather, I said that the basics of Unix should be taught. If all people can use is Windows, the first time they run into a Mac (probably in college, but maybe later) they'll crap their pants. Heaven forbid they actually encounter a Linux box.
Yes, i think that everything joe average must know about computers can be taught in a handful of hours.
And to have hours to teach unix you must either increase total amount of hours or not teach something else.
And most people will never see Unix box in their lives. remember that not everyone goes to college.
Sure, I have nothing against showing how to start OOo in Linux or in Mac or how to check email using multiple clients. But you cannot really say those are the core business of Unix.
It seems to me you're saying that we should teach kids how to use grep and other *nix tools and I do not see any reason to do it when vast majority would get much greater advantage from learning something else.