> Why don't we just start everyone with all the abilities and all the equipment?
Actually most FPS _already_ did do that for the last 10 years -- although they are slowly moving away from that model and to a pseudo-RPG model. i.e. TF2, COD4, UT, etc. The "problem" was game designers wanted to add diversity to the FPS genre, but frankly this solution has made the game worse. i.e. In the former, it came down to who had the most skill. The latter has shifted the burden to who has played (and ground for items) the most.
This _exact_ same problem happened in traditional sports such as Hockey, Basketball, Football, Racing, etc, where who (or which team/sponsor) has the most money, can afford the better players (or equipment). At least in Hockey, there is a player cap, and team cap, to help combat this problem. The only way to have a "fair" game, is to take the equipment out of the equation -- everyone starts on an equal footing.
The Baja 1000 has an interesting solution, in that they break down the _types_ of wins -- something that no RPG has done that I'm aware. Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baja_1000
It's per folly of game designers to ignore how other disciplines/fields have solved this exact same problem.
> I think the whole level-based paradigm is a flawed (if ubiquitous) way to build an MMORPG
I used to think that too, but
1) I don't see to many other RPGs doing it, aside from UO, and, um, who else?
2) Levels provide a direction / goal for the player (along with virtual power.) Without levels, how do you make the game interesting? It's solvable, but that requires a helluva lot of more work -- its just easier to fall back on what worked in the past.
> Chess is not funner because you can teleport your piece all over the map and make any one of your pieces attack another. Let me know when the world scale of chess leaves the microscopic 8x8 and reaches the macroscopic 1 million by 1 million.
> There's no sense in making a huge world with diverse regions and items, then giving the player the ability to hit any one of them at a whim. 1. Maybe you should go study the masters of this: Casino games _already_ do this, and they make _billions_. Let me know when WoW reaches that level.
2. I am not against environments such as snow, desert, tropical forest. They serve a purpose.
This bullshit of having to wait a week after clearing a raid instance is bad enough, but having to to constantly waste 20 minutes just to simply to get to an instance because I am the first one there when I have _already_ been there, is pure stupidity. And good luck when the 2nd person there to help summon everyone else, bails. And good luck when you try to summon who doesn't meet the "level requirements" for that instance.
> If a player could have started off in a room with a portal to any level in SMB, I never suggested any such thing. If you actually read what I wrote was "Want to travel back to any city you have previously reached. Bam, there.". Having waypoints, or check points, to places you have _already_ been, is a good thing. WoW _already_ does this. I am complaining about the time it takes. I am paying to play with my friends, not sit on my ass because the game forces me to wait for them. This is the problem that WoW tries to solve in a half-baked manner.
> Players have to be bored to enjoy the game. Let me know how many professional games you have worked on, let alone shipped.
> In a game like Majesty, what's the average length of a game? 1-2 hours? You completely miss the point. There is something called "Game Density." Bigger Worlds are NOT better, because the average density of _interesting_ things for the player to do goes down, compared to games played on a single screen. This is what the WoW designers didn't have a fucking clue about when the game first came out, making you travel between the 2 continents and not giving you your mount until level 40! They have done a MUCH better job when they introduced the Blood Elves, but they still don't "get it" about "Dead Time." Paying 2x or 4x the gold cost, for 1/2, or 1/4 flight times is a much needed step in the right direction. Lowering the mount down to 20 is another band-aid solution.
Oh, please. give it up on Bartle already. Bartle thinks that for some "magically" reason you "need" 4 players types. Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds, Spades. Ultima Online, showed that you don't need the Clubs (PvP) _at all_ when Trammel got introduced and the population in mass moved from Felucca. I lost many friends who quit UO for good because of some immature player griefing others.
As the Lead Designer of the PC game Majesty explained to me the technical term is called "Dead Time." If the player is _bored_, you hav _failed_ as a game designer.
Anyone who thinks waiting 20 mins in a MMO getting one from one destination, has never played D&D. D&D has almost _zero_ dead time. Want to travel north? Ok, GM rolls a die, and usually 1 or 2 things happen.
1. Ok, you're there. Now what? 2. Half way there you get attacked. Now what?
In CRPGs, there needs to be a balance. Ultima Online showed that if any one can recall, then yes, the world does seem small. WoW has shown us that suckers, er gamers, will put up with paying to wait. In Diablo 2, there are check-points (waypoints) that once you reach them, you can instantly travel back to any of the ones you have reached. Guid Wars does this exact same thing. Want to travel back to any city you have previously reached. Bam, there. I would limit the distance warped, or allow mages to _sell_ tiered portal scrolls that allow for greater distances.
So you would rather thaat the perp does that in Real-Life instead of his fantasy world???
Sometimes you have to pick the lesser of the evils, by allowing others theirs, when there is no direct physical harm, no matter how much it goes against your beliefs.
The article doesn't even say how they found them in the first place, but why the hell do people get so bent out of shape what others look at? Its none of mine, or your fucking business.
Don't prosecutors have anything better to do, then pretend to be a nanny to some adult?
It's a _picture_. It's such threat to society that it threatens the heart of civilization! I mean look at all the killing, and raping it does!!! Oh wait, _people_ do those things... -- "One man's fetish is another man's turnoff."
Why doesn't he just find a hobby he likes like music, martial arts, or movies? That way he doesn't have to fake interest - women will spot that in a second anyways.
"I really love this book. It is causing me to rethink a great deal of my own work. I am convinced that The Electric Sky deserves the widest possible readership.... I felt genuine excitement while reading and felt I was delving into a delicious feast of new ideas." - Gerrit L. Verschuur, PhD, University of Manchester. A well-known radio astronomer and writer, presently at the Physics Department, University of Memphis. He is the author of "Interstellar matters : essays on curiosity and astronomical discovery", and "The invisible universe - The Story of Radio Astronomy" as well as many other books and scientific papers.
"You don't have to be an astronomer to enjoy this book. It's an exciting story about how a small group of physicists, engineers and other scientists have challenged the 'establishment' - the 'big science' astronomers who are reluctant to listen to anyone outside their own elite circle." - Lewis E. Franks, PhD, Stanford University, Fellow of the IEEE (1977), Professor Emeritus and Head of the Department of Electrical & Computer Engineering, University of Massachusetts (Retired).
"Gravity was the focus of 20th century astronomy. For the 21st century, it will be electromagnetism and plasmas in addition. This forthcoming scientific revolution is presaged by the rapid pace of discoveries about our own star, the Sun, and its total plasma environment, and discoveries about the nature of the interstellar medium." - Timothy E. Eastman, PhD, Head of Raytheon's space physics and astrophysics groups. He is well known for his work on magnetospheric boundary layers and the initial discovery of the Low Latitude Boundary Layer.
"It is gratifying to see the work of my mentor, Nobel Laureate Hannes Alfvén enumerated with such clarity. I am also pleased to see that Dr. Scott has given general readers such a lucid and understandable summary of my own work." - Anthony L. Peratt, PhD, USC, Fellow of the IEEE (1999), former scientific advisor to the U.S. Department of Energy and member of the Associate Laboratory Directorate of the Los Alamos National Laboratory. He is the author of Physics of the Plasma Universe and numerous published papers.
--
I find a hard time placing faith in any pseudo-religious Science that can't even understand the importance of consciousness by simply ignoring it from their equations.
Oh yeah, forgot about that too. That ironically is one of the things I didn't mind about it. lol. (I usually re-map the 5 & 6 key to be 'q', 'e, 'r', or 'f' in games to minimize finger distance.)
In school, I read every "The Three Investigators" book I could, then Mystery, and Sci-Fi. With the internet I have found music, movies, documentaries, and books on philosophy, religion, meta-physics from all sorts of links, including scribd and torrent searches, that I normally would not of had exposure too.
But the internet is a _meta-library_, as it also provides a commmunity! Whether that be my gaming friends (such as Steam or battle.net), or places as amazon (and its feedback), thinkgeek, rec.games.programmer and eventually news-groups and yahoo-groups amongst/., I can debate, listen, and mull over other people's opinion on just about anything.
To me, the internet is (digital) superset of library.
Yeah this morning I was thinking what distinguishes between indie and non, and amateur and professional.
Before I would of argued, Amateur = Indie, Professional=Non-Indie, but you have a certain point. I'd say that yours is a little better of a definition, but it is still a little loose.
The reason I say its not exactly correct either is because with your definition most professional game developers are NOT indie either! UNLESS they self-publish as Most publishers will tell you what you need to change. So itt looks like we have 2 orthogonal axises. Job and Control.
(Control Game Direction)
Indie
^
| (2nd job) Amateur <--+--> Professional (Primary Job)
|
v
Non-Indie
(Don't control Game Direction)
-- WoW (TM) is the McDonalds (TM) of MMOs. Quantity != Quality.
-- Michaelangel007
> Programmers are a dime a dozen. That ain't nothing but ten-cent coding.
Oh please. Ideas are dime a dozen too. Your great idea means jack shit if it isn't implemented.
_Great_ Programmers, and _Great_ Designers, are much, much rarer.
I'm not sure how many years of game programming you have (sounds like you don't have much), but you are ignoring important pieces of game development:
* An architect who is illiterate of the materials used to build the building, will spec something that can't be built. Designers tend to ignore run-time costs because they don't understand the technical reasons why you can't implement their "grand idea." Good AI is not computational cheap.
* Often times, design "hand waves" how systems will work, because they can't be bothered with the actual nitty-gritty details. The devil is in the (implementation) details.
* More and more game designers are doing programming via scripting. Designers for the most part, are clueless about writing _good_ code (due to inexperience), and heaven help the programmer who has to debug their scripts. In the ideal world a designer would work _together_ with a programmer so that BOTH may learn each other's craft.
> the implementation can be farmed off to any body shop.
Uhm, no.
Some things look great on paper, but in practice, are bad ideas.
Sometimes a great execution, will make an OK idea, be good !
I would seriously consider learning more about design and programming before spouting off.
> The Wii is probably somewhat more powerful than the original Xbox.
Uhm, no. Having worked on the Wii, The GX (GPU) is _not_ as powerful as a GeForce 3.5. (The XBox's GPU was about half way between a GeForce 3 and GeForce 4.) The is more like a GeForce 2.5. It has half a pixel shader. Translation: Very limited, and takes specific planning to work around it.
> And yes, I do think SNES graphics were better than PS1 graphics. Good 2D > primitive 3D.
Agreed. Most people don't seem to understand that is a hell of a lot easier to make art look good from only 1 angle, then from 360 directions. (Due to _baked_ in lighting / shadows.)
> that I tend to feel the graphics do suck on, are the 2600 and PS1 generations.
Agreed. Not having a Z-buffer and having to manually sort polys is total suckage on the PSX aka PS1 for the public.
Personally, I don't even see why there is even talk about new "next-gen" -- the US economy is still in the toilet, and I don't see too many people rushing out to buy the current "next-gen" consoles. The only thing I _do_ see, is that now is probably the time to start developing next gen consoles, given a 2 - 3 year lead time.
Slashdot Mirror
As a Game Programmer I completely _disagree_.
Designers are more and more being asked to do more Scripting. i.e. LUA, etc.
--
WoW (TM) is the McDonalds (TM) of MMORPGs
> Why don't we just start everyone with all the abilities and all the equipment?
Actually most FPS _already_ did do that for the last 10 years -- although they are slowly moving away from that model and to a pseudo-RPG model. i.e. TF2, COD4, UT, etc. The "problem" was game designers wanted to add diversity to the FPS genre, but frankly this solution has made the game worse. i.e. In the former, it came down to who had the most skill. The latter has shifted the burden to who has played (and ground for items) the most.
This _exact_ same problem happened in traditional sports such as Hockey, Basketball, Football, Racing, etc, where who (or which team/sponsor) has the most money, can afford the better players (or equipment). At least in Hockey, there is a player cap, and team cap, to help combat this problem. The only way to have a "fair" game, is to take the equipment out of the equation -- everyone starts on an equal footing.
The Baja 1000 has an interesting solution, in that they break down the _types_ of wins -- something that no RPG has done that I'm aware. Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baja_1000
It's per folly of game designers to ignore how other disciplines/fields have solved this exact same problem.
--
WoW (TM) is the McDonalds (TM) of MMORPGs.
> I think the whole level-based paradigm is a flawed (if ubiquitous) way to build an MMORPG
I used to think that too, but
1) I don't see to many other RPGs doing it, aside from UO, and, um, who else?
2) Levels provide a direction / goal for the player (along with virtual power.) Without levels, how do you make the game interesting? It's solvable, but that requires a helluva lot of more work -- its just easier to fall back on what worked in the past.
--
WoW (TM) is the McDonalds of MMORPGs. (TM)
Gee, wonder why Guild Wars PvP characters start at level 20 (the max).
And to a _Casino_ developer, the technical _term_ is BILLIONS _of_ DOLLARS.
Who do you think understands psychology better - computer role playing game designers or the casinos?
--
WoW (TM) is the McDonalds (TM) of MMORPGs.
> Chess is not funner because you can teleport your piece all over the map and make any one of your pieces attack another.
Let me know when the world scale of chess leaves the microscopic 8x8 and reaches the macroscopic 1 million by 1 million.
> There's no sense in making a huge world with diverse regions and items, then giving the player the ability to hit any one of them at a whim.
1. Maybe you should go study the masters of this: Casino games _already_ do this, and they make _billions_. Let me know when WoW reaches that level.
2. I am not against environments such as snow, desert, tropical forest. They serve a purpose.
This bullshit of having to wait a week after clearing a raid instance is bad enough, but having to to constantly waste 20 minutes just to simply to get to an instance because I am the first one there when I have _already_ been there, is pure stupidity. And good luck when the 2nd person there to help summon everyone else, bails. And good luck when you try to summon who doesn't meet the "level requirements" for that instance.
> If a player could have started off in a room with a portal to any level in SMB,
I never suggested any such thing. If you actually read what I wrote was "Want to travel back to any city you have previously reached. Bam, there.". Having waypoints, or check points, to places you have _already_ been, is a good thing. WoW _already_ does this. I am complaining about the time it takes. I am paying to play with my friends, not sit on my ass because the game forces me to wait for them. This is the problem that WoW tries to solve in a half-baked manner.
Why do you think Star Wars Galaxies has this ??
> Players have to be bored to enjoy the game.
Let me know how many professional games you have worked on, let alone shipped.
> In a game like Majesty, what's the average length of a game? 1-2 hours?
You completely miss the point. There is something called "Game Density." Bigger Worlds are NOT better, because the average density of _interesting_ things for the player to do goes down, compared to games played on a single screen. This is what the WoW designers didn't have a fucking clue about when the game first came out, making you travel between the 2 continents and not giving you your mount until level 40! They have done a MUCH better job when they introduced the Blood Elves, but they still don't "get it" about "Dead Time." Paying 2x or 4x the gold cost, for 1/2, or 1/4 flight times is a much needed step in the right direction. Lowering the mount down to 20 is another band-aid solution.
--
Wow (TM) is the McDonalds (TM) of MMORPGs.
Oh, please. give it up on Bartle already. Bartle thinks that for some "magically" reason you "need" 4 players types. Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds, Spades. Ultima Online, showed that you don't need the Clubs (PvP) _at all_ when Trammel got introduced and the population in mass moved from Felucca. I lost many friends who quit UO for good because of some immature player griefing others.
Why would you pay to wait???
As the Lead Designer of the PC game Majesty explained to me the technical term is called "Dead Time." If the player is _bored_, you hav _failed_ as a game designer.
Anyone who thinks waiting 20 mins in a MMO getting one from one destination, has never played D&D. D&D has almost _zero_ dead time. Want to travel north? Ok, GM rolls a die, and usually 1 or 2 things happen.
1. Ok, you're there. Now what?
2. Half way there you get attacked. Now what?
In CRPGs, there needs to be a balance. Ultima Online showed that if any one can recall, then yes, the world does seem small. WoW has shown us that suckers, er gamers, will put up with paying to wait. In Diablo 2, there are check-points (waypoints) that once you reach them, you can instantly travel back to any of the ones you have reached. Guid Wars does this exact same thing. Want to travel back to any city you have previously reached. Bam, there. I would limit the distance warped, or allow mages to _sell_ tiered portal scrolls that allow for greater distances.
So you would rather thaat the perp does that in Real-Life instead of his fantasy world???
Sometimes you have to pick the lesser of the evils, by allowing others theirs, when there is no direct physical harm, no matter how much it goes against your beliefs.
Thoughts are not illegal, only _actions_.
The article doesn't even say how they found them in the first place, but why the hell do people get so bent out of shape what others look at? Its none of mine, or your fucking business.
Don't prosecutors have anything better to do, then pretend to be a nanny to some adult?
It's a _picture_. It's such threat to society that it threatens the heart of civilization! I mean look at all the killing, and raping it does!!! Oh wait, _people_ do those things...
--
"One man's fetish is another man's turnoff."
Why doesn't he just find a hobby he likes like music, martial arts, or movies? That way he doesn't have to fake interest - women will spot that in a second anyways.
Maybe you can explain why these PhD's are so gullible for "buying" into a "currently unacceptable theory":
http://members.cox.net/dascott3/Endorsements.htm
"I really love this book. It is causing me to rethink a great deal of my own work. I am convinced that The Electric Sky deserves the widest possible readership.... I felt genuine excitement while reading and felt I was delving into a delicious feast of new ideas."
- Gerrit L. Verschuur, PhD, University of Manchester. A well-known radio astronomer and writer, presently at the Physics Department, University of Memphis. He is the author of "Interstellar matters : essays on curiosity and astronomical discovery", and "The invisible universe - The Story of Radio Astronomy" as well as many other books and scientific papers.
"You don't have to be an astronomer to enjoy this book. It's an exciting story about how a small group of physicists, engineers and other scientists have challenged the 'establishment' - the 'big science' astronomers who are reluctant to listen to anyone outside their own elite circle."
- Lewis E. Franks, PhD, Stanford University, Fellow of the IEEE (1977), Professor Emeritus and Head of the Department of Electrical & Computer Engineering, University of Massachusetts (Retired).
"Gravity was the focus of 20th century astronomy. For the 21st century, it will be electromagnetism and plasmas in addition. This forthcoming scientific revolution is presaged by the rapid pace of discoveries about our own star, the Sun, and its total plasma environment, and discoveries about the nature of the interstellar medium."
- Timothy E. Eastman, PhD, Head of Raytheon's space physics and astrophysics groups. He is well known for his work on magnetospheric boundary layers and the initial discovery of the Low Latitude Boundary Layer.
"It is gratifying to see the work of my mentor, Nobel Laureate Hannes Alfvén enumerated with such clarity. I am also pleased to see that Dr. Scott has given general readers such a lucid and understandable summary of my own work."
- Anthony L. Peratt, PhD, USC, Fellow of the IEEE (1999), former scientific advisor to the U.S. Department of Energy and member of the Associate Laboratory Directorate of the Los Alamos National Laboratory. He is the author of Physics of the Plasma Universe and numerous published papers.
--
I find a hard time placing faith in any pseudo-religious Science that can't even understand the importance of consciousness by simply ignoring it from their equations.
Ah cool - that looks like it has some promise!
I still don't understand how MS can screw up something like the Microsoft Natural Keyboard Elite by
a) changing from big size keys to tiny keys, and
b) changing the topology from the classic inverted T shape to a diamond shape.
Don't they ever ask people (gamers) who actually _use_ these things??
> Notice how the 6 is on the wrong side?
Oh yeah, forgot about that too. That ironically is one of the things I didn't mind about it. lol. (I usually re-map the 5 & 6 key to be 'q', 'e, 'r', or 'f' in games to minimize finger distance.)
Close, but won't do. :-(
I use 'y' in FPS/CTF style games as for "yell alll" (and 'T' for 'talk team')
Totally.
In school, I read every "The Three Investigators" book I could, then Mystery, and Sci-Fi. With the internet I have found music, movies, documentaries, and books on philosophy, religion, meta-physics from all sorts of links, including scribd and torrent searches, that I normally would not of had exposure too.
But the internet is a _meta-library_, as it also provides a commmunity! Whether that be my gaming friends (such as Steam or battle.net), or places as amazon (and its feedback), thinkgeek, rec.games.programmer and eventually news-groups and yahoo-groups amongst /., I can debate, listen, and mull over other people's opinion on just about anything.
To me, the internet is (digital) superset of library.
Yeah this morning I was thinking what distinguishes between indie and non, and amateur and professional.
Before I would of argued, Amateur = Indie, Professional=Non-Indie, but you have a certain point. I'd say that yours is a little better of a definition, but it is still a little loose.
The reason I say its not exactly correct either is because with your definition most professional game developers are NOT indie either! UNLESS they self-publish as Most publishers will tell you what you need to change. So itt looks like we have 2 orthogonal axises. Job and Control.
--
WoW (TM) is the McDonalds (TM) of MMOs. Quantity != Quality.
-- Michaelangel007
> Programmers are a dime a dozen. That ain't nothing but ten-cent coding.
Oh please. Ideas are dime a dozen too. Your great idea means jack shit if it isn't implemented.
_Great_ Programmers, and _Great_ Designers, are much, much rarer.
I'm not sure how many years of game programming you have (sounds like you don't have much), but you are ignoring important pieces of game development:
* An architect who is illiterate of the materials used to build the building, will spec something that can't be built. Designers tend to ignore run-time costs because they don't understand the technical reasons why you can't implement their "grand idea." Good AI is not computational cheap.
* Often times, design "hand waves" how systems will work, because they can't be bothered with the actual nitty-gritty details. The devil is in the (implementation) details.
* More and more game designers are doing programming via scripting. Designers for the most part, are clueless about writing _good_ code (due to inexperience), and heaven help the programmer who has to debug their scripts. In the ideal world a designer would work _together_ with a programmer so that BOTH may learn each other's craft.
> the implementation can be farmed off to any body shop.
Uhm, no.
Some things look great on paper, but in practice, are bad ideas.
Sometimes a great execution, will make an OK idea, be good !
I would seriously consider learning more about design and programming before spouting off.
Nor is it even comp.sci. The definition is really simple:
If your paying job is NOT game development, then you ARE an indie if you do game development on the side.
If your day job IS developing games, then you're NOT an indie (you are a professional!)
Who publishers your game doesn't change your status of how you got the game made.
I can already go to the library, or even the radio to listen to free music but I guess it is a small step in the right direction.
It only took them how many years after iTunes and Amazon mp3 was out?
> In terms of both convenience and value, our new music service will be superior to anything that's available online today
Bwuahaha. Let me know when I can download .FLACs
Exactly. And companies wonder why micro-trans won't take off here in the Western World.
In a digital world there is no reason why it should cost more then $0.01.
> The Wii is probably somewhat more powerful than the original Xbox.
Uhm, no. Having worked on the Wii, The GX (GPU) is _not_ as powerful as a GeForce 3.5. (The XBox's GPU was about half way between a GeForce 3 and GeForce 4.) The is more like a GeForce 2.5. It has half a pixel shader. Translation: Very limited, and takes specific planning to work around it.
> And yes, I do think SNES graphics were better than PS1 graphics. Good 2D > primitive 3D.
Agreed. Most people don't seem to understand that is a hell of a lot easier to make art look good from only 1 angle, then from 360 directions. (Due to _baked_ in lighting / shadows.)
> that I tend to feel the graphics do suck on, are the 2600 and PS1 generations.
Agreed. Not having a Z-buffer and having to manually sort polys is total suckage on the PSX aka PS1 for the public.
Personally, I don't even see why there is even talk about new "next-gen" -- the US economy is still in the toilet, and I don't see too many people rushing out to buy the current "next-gen" consoles. The only thing I _do_ see, is that now is probably the time to start developing next gen consoles, given a 2 - 3 year lead time.
You know, I've tried switching Caps/Ctrl around and I just can't get used to it. I use Caps/Shift/Ctrl in almost all my games.
I just wish the OS would _natively_ support DISABLING the toggling of UPPERCASE, and just treat caps like any other key.
What, no Duct Tape suggestion? :-)
*ducks*
(Electrical Tape is actually a good idea)