why do you assume they won't just switch to paid Windows?
"damn it sucks, my windows doesn't work anymore, all this worm stuff on it makes it really fucked up, i can't patch it 'cos, well, its pirated"
"hey man, just try this CD, it's got this great OS on it and it's called Linux, sorry I mean GNU/Linux, and not only are the security updates free, the entire OS is free and legal!"
##next day##
"hey, man, i dunno what the thing is that you gave me, but i dunno how to use it, and they tell me none of my (also-pirated) games work on it, so i'm gonna go to the store now and cough up that money for windows, thanks anyway"
you're rated +4 interesting now, but it looks more like +5 wishful thinking. there's a whole ecology around windows that doesn't go away. unless linux can become in some way a "drop in replacement" of windows (distribs with WINE bundled are headed that way but is not there yet, and MS may yet find a way to stop it), any switchers-to-linux will be negligible.
best of all, winxp's firewall WILL stop most of these worms, so whats most likely gonna happen is these guys are gonna 1. reinstall, 2. live with an unpatched pirated windows but with the firewall on.
someone actually modded you up? sheesh. the point is, your mom didn't, he did.
i've personally had to deal with manually installing the individual patches MS has released for NT4 machines one by one (by one... somewhere in the region of 25-35 patches per machine; MS' advisory on chaining patches without having to reboot after each one is useful but still doesn't help all that much) because MS won't release a proper service pack 7 with all the security updates rolled into it, and if i had to maintain win98se machines, i'd be very happy to run into this.
and as for all the other posters - offhand i'd say i trust him.
once the judgement comes, won't MS have a *fiduciary duty* to their shareholders to claw back the money they've paid out to SCO since, heck, they got nothing for it?
simply pointing out that today Apple doesn't have a very good growth potential.
but your original post certainly gives that impression. well, alright. what apple guys would say re: not very good growth potential is "we don't care".:-)
Later on it was discovered that it was actually possible to boot Mac OS 8 on them (long after they were discontinued). There are also a few RS6000's that can boot Mac OS (like the F50).
This is very interesting. Can you provide more details? My understanding is that there was a requirement for specific Mac ROMs in order to boot MacOS, why did IBM include those ROMs into their RS/6000 machines? Can you provide any URLs with info? I've tried googling but I don't see anything relevant.
For someone who seems to be supporting anti-MS stuff (pro-linux etc.) you seem to think a lot like MS. "Only by being the biggest/most common/dominant am I winning".
You don't have to be the most/largest to "win".
Insofar as Apple etc. can make enough $$ to keep spending on R&D and make what people like etc., they can carry on, and that counts as success.
Insofar as linux hackers can keep developing the system and getting the internal reward of doing something cool/good, linux is a success for them. The fact that it's eating away at MS is secondary.
yeah, definitely, I've got a Solaris x86 box too. But the thing is Solaris is not what you'd call a "commercial desktop OS" would you? It's more a "workstation" thing. You're not going to install it for your grandma to do word processing (Using CDE on it would kill her. I'm hoping you like your Grandma:-). Well OK, there's Gnome too, but it's not as targeted at being simple-to-use as Windows XP Luna or MacOS X Aqua/Metal, is it?)
And - all my posts so far have been aimed at replying to Ceyan's originating post above - the point is also that it's quite clear MS is not-quite-losing in the battle against Sun, no?
Ummmm... errmmmm... that's right, none, not even Apple
isn't that the whole point?
if Apple operated in the x86 sphere, MS would have killed them, through their per-processor licensing deals etc., prevention of multi-boot licensing (have you read about the BeOS experience?).
The PPC usage may/may not have ghetto-ized the Macs, but it also (perversely if you look at it) also keeps Apple alive, because it keeps MS off their turf. MS has no reason to expend the kind of $$ it would take to port their stuff over to PPC (just look how long AMD64 Windows is taking), and they'd never make enough $$ to justify it. So insofar as Apple can keep selling hardware to people, they can live, and MS will allow them to do so (more or less) by keeping MS Office coming.
If Apple had challenged MS head-on by fighting on the x86 turf, they would be dead. In a head-to-head fight in the PC sphere for something that is of importance to the core of MS, nobody can fight MS and expect to live. When the browser threatened the underlying OS, they pulled out all the stops to kill Netscape.
You're talking about "hey, look, what other architectures with a commercial desktop OS" blah - nobody, of course. That is the whole point.
Linux is NOT a commercial desktop OS. That is the sole reason why Linux is able to engage MS at all. Try talking to a VC firm to ask for funding in order to build an OS to challenge MS.
The reason why - and you can look up Linus Torvalds statements, since I get the feeling you count as a linux fanboy you ought to know how to find them - linux has come so far and will continue to do so, is that the (majority, if not 100%) of the hackers working on it are doing it for the fun of it, not because there's going to be some massive $$$ payoff in the end. Linus also made some statement (I can't recall it verbatim but this should be close) which encapsulates it - Linux is going to defeat MS not as part of its "founding plan", it's just an inevitable side effect. In a deep and fundamental sense Linux is about *technical* "cool"-ness, not about making money, not about "commercial", not about $ at all.
You're all huffed up about how "oh Apple isn't fighting Microsoft" or "Apple isn't fighting Microsoft successfully". Well, (1) nobody on the PC sphere fights Microsoft successfully, with the exception of Quicken (but then Quicken doesn't operate with something that is "life or death" for MS and MS doesn't fight by Marquis of Queensberry rules), and (2) Apple isn't about "fighting MS". Apple is about - beyond keeping the shareholders happy - "doing cool stuff". Not "doing cool stuff on x86". The Apple-vs-MS conflict is not about "MS must die because MS is MS" but because "MS is NOT COOL".
Yes, definitely, look at how well those other x86 OS vendors are doing even in a field dominated by Microsoft! Like, you know, like... hrm. Who else makes a commercial desktop OS on x86 and is still alive?
BeOS found out the hard way what happens when you try to fight on MS' turf. If you are going to live on the x86 sphere as an OS vendor you are either very niche/specialised (i.e. NOT "commercial consumer desktop vendor" a la Apple, Be, IBM-OS/2 et al), or you are fucked.
what i wanted to say (which was why i replied in this thread) is that its obviously to HPs advantage to align with the leader now (and in exchange, have to offer wider iTunes distribution) than to invest who knows how much money churning out yet another MP3 player (the field is getting very crowded actually. don't forget the chinese manufacturers popping up, and the multi-function phones-and-mp3-players on the way, with the new super-small HDDs).
HP got burned many times before with "create our new product lines" (think "Jornada", with their colour bit-depth cockups and product recalls). much much safer this way.
and, best of all, this is a dell tactic - invest no R&D money and just slap your logo on someone else's product !
actually it seems to be that the real "trigger" for this is Dell's release of their MP3 player.
"the enemy of my enemy is my friend"
although some Mac people (what with Steve Jobs putting up the picture of Micheal Dell with the bulls-eye on his forehead at a Macworld a few years back) think that Dell is Apple's enemy, it doesnt by far compare to the war being fought between HP and Dell.
HP obviously found it better (and I agree) to align with the leader (in an ironic twist, since usually its Dell who is ahead).
This whole announcement isn't about "HP and Apple", it's about "HP vs Dell"
Slashdot Mirror
they shoulda waited until MS announced a reward for it first!
They at all times exist at the whim of the citizens, at least in the United States.
not any more, or haven't you noticed who's in the white house?
The people who pirate software are those who donot want to pay. They WILL move to Linux.
i believe this poster, and therefore i believe you're wrong
If the pirates switch
why do you assume they won't just switch to paid Windows?
"damn it sucks, my windows doesn't work anymore, all this worm stuff on it makes it really fucked up, i can't patch it 'cos, well, its pirated"
"hey man, just try this CD, it's got this great OS on it and it's called Linux, sorry I mean GNU/Linux, and not only are the security updates free, the entire OS is free and legal!"
##next day##
"hey, man, i dunno what the thing is that you gave me, but i dunno how to use it, and they tell me none of my (also-pirated) games work on it, so i'm gonna go to the store now and cough up that money for windows, thanks anyway"
you're rated +4 interesting now, but it looks more like +5 wishful thinking. there's a whole ecology around windows that doesn't go away. unless linux can become in some way a "drop in replacement" of windows (distribs with WINE bundled are headed that way but is not there yet, and MS may yet find a way to stop it), any switchers-to-linux will be negligible.
best of all, winxp's firewall WILL stop most of these worms, so whats most likely gonna happen is these guys are gonna 1. reinstall, 2. live with an unpatched pirated windows but with the firewall on.
One of these days Microsoft is going to get nailed by a "innocent third party" law suit
This isn't +5 interesting, this is +5 wishful thinking.
someone actually modded you up? sheesh. the point is, your mom didn't, he did.
i've personally had to deal with manually installing the individual patches MS has released for NT4 machines one by one (by one... somewhere in the region of 25-35 patches per machine; MS' advisory on chaining patches without having to reboot after each one is useful but still doesn't help all that much) because MS won't release a proper service pack 7 with all the security updates rolled into it, and if i had to maintain win98se machines, i'd be very happy to run into this.
and as for all the other posters - offhand i'd say i trust him.
once the judgement comes, won't MS have a *fiduciary duty* to their shareholders to claw back the money they've paid out to SCO since, heck, they got nothing for it?
Holy shit... this is TRULY kickass
as in 'this is the Viper, don't look so hard at the paint' or some such junk
sounds more like this kind of thing was put in to increase SALES than to improve security
the kind of owner that would buy that kind of thing is the kind of owner who would be excited by "this is... the Viperrrrr..."
Spark
Erm. were you composing this on MS word or something with a spelling autocorrect that doesn't recognise SPARC?
I wouldn't dream of making my Grandma use it. ;)
:-)
:-)
:-(
haha, ok, i guess you DO love your grandma then
I wonder what McNealey makes his parents use
Which is more than we can say about Be.
crying shame, indeed...
simply pointing out that today Apple doesn't have a very good growth potential.
:-)
but your original post certainly gives that impression. well, alright. what apple guys would say re: not very good growth potential is "we don't care".
Later on it was discovered that it was actually possible to boot Mac OS 8 on them (long after they were discontinued). There are also a few RS6000's that can boot Mac OS (like the F50).
This is very interesting. Can you provide more details? My understanding is that there was a requirement for specific Mac ROMs in order to boot MacOS, why did IBM include those ROMs into their RS/6000 machines? Can you provide any URLs with info? I've tried googling but I don't see anything relevant.
For someone who seems to be supporting anti-MS stuff (pro-linux etc.) you seem to think a lot like MS. "Only by being the biggest/most common/dominant am I winning".
You don't have to be the most/largest to "win".
Insofar as Apple etc. can make enough $$ to keep spending on R&D and make what people like etc., they can carry on, and that counts as success.
Insofar as linux hackers can keep developing the system and getting the internal reward of doing something cool/good, linux is a success for them. The fact that it's eating away at MS is secondary.
Hi,
:-). Well OK, there's Gnome too, but it's not as targeted at being simple-to-use as Windows XP Luna or MacOS X Aqua/Metal, is it?)
yeah, definitely, I've got a Solaris x86 box too. But the thing is Solaris is not what you'd call a "commercial desktop OS" would you? It's more a "workstation" thing. You're not going to install it for your grandma to do word processing (Using CDE on it would kill her. I'm hoping you like your Grandma
And - all my posts so far have been aimed at replying to Ceyan's originating post above - the point is also that it's quite clear MS is not-quite-losing in the battle against Sun, no?
Ummmm... errmmmm... that's right, none, not even Apple
isn't that the whole point?
if Apple operated in the x86 sphere, MS would have killed them, through their per-processor licensing deals etc., prevention of multi-boot licensing (have you read about the BeOS experience?).
The PPC usage may/may not have ghetto-ized the Macs, but it also (perversely if you look at it) also keeps Apple alive, because it keeps MS off their turf. MS has no reason to expend the kind of $$ it would take to port their stuff over to PPC (just look how long AMD64 Windows is taking), and they'd never make enough $$ to justify it. So insofar as Apple can keep selling hardware to people, they can live, and MS will allow them to do so (more or less) by keeping MS Office coming.
If Apple had challenged MS head-on by fighting on the x86 turf, they would be dead. In a head-to-head fight in the PC sphere for something that is of importance to the core of MS, nobody can fight MS and expect to live. When the browser threatened the underlying OS, they pulled out all the stops to kill Netscape.
You're talking about "hey, look, what other architectures with a commercial desktop OS" blah - nobody, of course. That is the whole point.
Linux is NOT a commercial desktop OS. That is the sole reason why Linux is able to engage MS at all. Try talking to a VC firm to ask for funding in order to build an OS to challenge MS.
The reason why - and you can look up Linus Torvalds statements, since I get the feeling you count as a linux fanboy you ought to know how to find them - linux has come so far and will continue to do so, is that the (majority, if not 100%) of the hackers working on it are doing it for the fun of it, not because there's going to be some massive $$$ payoff in the end. Linus also made some statement (I can't recall it verbatim but this should be close) which encapsulates it - Linux is going to defeat MS not as part of its "founding plan", it's just an inevitable side effect. In a deep and fundamental sense Linux is about *technical* "cool"-ness, not about making money, not about "commercial", not about $ at all.
You're all huffed up about how "oh Apple isn't fighting Microsoft" or "Apple isn't fighting Microsoft successfully". Well, (1) nobody on the PC sphere fights Microsoft successfully, with the exception of Quicken (but then Quicken doesn't operate with something that is "life or death" for MS and MS doesn't fight by Marquis of Queensberry rules), and (2) Apple isn't about "fighting MS". Apple is about - beyond keeping the shareholders happy - "doing cool stuff". Not "doing cool stuff on x86". The Apple-vs-MS conflict is not about "MS must die because MS is MS" but because "MS is NOT COOL".
it's your own dumbass fault
i see, obviously you are the kind of person who's never had something break on you through no action on your own.
and that's a fucked up analogy as pointed out.
insightful my ass
Yes, definitely, look at how well those other x86 OS vendors are doing even in a field dominated by Microsoft! Like, you know, like... hrm. Who else makes a commercial desktop OS on x86 and is still alive?
BeOS found out the hard way what happens when you try to fight on MS' turf. If you are going to live on the x86 sphere as an OS vendor you are either very niche/specialised (i.e. NOT "commercial consumer desktop vendor" a la Apple, Be, IBM-OS/2 et al), or you are fucked.
ha, yeah... on a "user interface/ease of use" perspective, Knoppix is NOTHING like Debian
i dont understand why people keep treating knoppix like it is ONLY a cdrom/livecd distro. whats wrong with running knx-hdinstall?
yes, but this is MICROSOFT we are talking about. if they were to do those things, they probably ARE doing it for those reasons! :)
is to curb piracy
i had thought it was to stop linux.
he could be talking about a powerbook or an ibook, you know. the 12" models are definitely stack-of-paper sized.
drats, hit submit too quick
what i wanted to say (which was why i replied in this thread) is that its obviously to HPs advantage to align with the leader now (and in exchange, have to offer wider iTunes distribution) than to invest who knows how much money churning out yet another MP3 player (the field is getting very crowded actually. don't forget the chinese manufacturers popping up, and the multi-function phones-and-mp3-players on the way, with the new super-small HDDs).
HP got burned many times before with "create our new product lines" (think "Jornada", with their colour bit-depth cockups and product recalls). much much safer this way.
and, best of all, this is a dell tactic - invest no R&D money and just slap your logo on someone else's product !
actually it seems to be that the real "trigger" for this is Dell's release of their MP3 player.
"the enemy of my enemy is my friend"
although some Mac people (what with Steve Jobs putting up the picture of Micheal Dell with the bulls-eye on his forehead at a Macworld a few years back) think that Dell is Apple's enemy, it doesnt by far compare to the war being fought between HP and Dell.
HP obviously found it better (and I agree) to align with the leader (in an ironic twist, since usually its Dell who is ahead).
This whole announcement isn't about "HP and Apple", it's about "HP vs Dell"
With it, they could launch a nuclear first strike on Pakistan and cripple their nuclear capabilities.
they could equally likely launch a nuclear first strike, fail to cripple pakistani nukes because of bad intel, and thereafter trigger WWIII
The Indians and Chinese will accept higher risk
i think the indians and chinese are as capable of incompetence and boneheadedness as we are.
it is just a matter of their stage of development.
give them enough time and their brilliant engineers and scientists will be just as under the thumb of PHBs and lawyers as ours are.