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IBM Files For Declaratory Judgement In SCO Case
Some Bitch writes "IBM has filed for declaratory judgement in the SCO case. They want the court to declare that "IBM does not infringe, induce the infringement of or contribute to the infringement of any SCO copyright through its Linux activities, including its use, reproduction and improvement of Linux, and that some or all of SCO's purported copyrights in Unix are invalid and unenforceable.". If the judge grants the motion then SCO effectively has no case and the whole thing is over."
spafbnerf notes that "SCO has filed a motion for the patent infringement claim to be split into a separate case." fr0z adds a link to Groklaw's always-excellent coverage.
In sum, I think that Files For Declaratory Judgement is overrated and would recommend against it at this time.
I just wonder what took IBM so long to go for this? Was it matter of timing or did they have to wait for other judgements to clear first?
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
does this mean that we shoudl have IBM lawyers as friends?
Don't Tread on OpenSource
spafbnerf notes that "SCO has filed a motion for the patent infringement claim to be split into a separate case."
But, why?
I mean, if IBM gets the declaratory judgment, it'll wrap this all up.
Splitting off the patent infringement into another lawsuit will just drag this out for another year...
Oh!
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
but wouldn't life be just a little bit too bland without our favorite enemy?
Is it just me or are the SCO lawyers trying to drag this out as long as they possibly can. Talk about the lawyers staying on the payroll a long time. They are great lawyers at keeping on the payroll withough ever actually taking this anywhere.
Evolution or ID?
SCOs motion to Bifurcate in IBM case seemed like bad panick reaction. As put in Groklaw earlier, it looks like they want to separate their case from the most hopeless things by dividing it into two. Now the judge can only guess, whether what IBM is asking, is the most hopeless part. IMO it is.
I'm an attorney in a medium size corporation. We have held off on adopting Linux.
Why, you ask? Well, despite the excellent information provided by groklaw, it is simply unreasonable to assume that SCO's case is completely baseless. These are intelligent, wealthy people, and they did not get that way by filing groundless lawsuits.
While we were planning on adopting Linux as our new development platform, we have not. The uncertain outcome of this lawsuit coupled with very steep discounts offered by Microsoft have pushed us to Windows 2003.
Also, in my perusal of groklaw, I have found that while it provides good information, it is also heavily censored. More than once I have read a compelling "pro-SCO" post that disappears not long after it appears. I can only assume that PJ is deleting them. In short, I don't think groklaw is giving us a very objective view of the situation.
-Cecil
If the judge grants the motion then SCO effectively has no case and the whole thing is over.
Over?? Wow, could this be the end of SCO?
What will we make fun of then? Hardly IBM, since they seem to be rapidly converting themselves into good guys - this story will probably elevate them to the status of demi-godhood.
Well, back to bashing Microsoft then I suppose ...
I hear there's rumors on the Slashdots
SCO is dying :~(
Probably a good time to dump this stock
"If the judge grants the motion then SCO effectively has no case"
Everything from 'If' to 'then' is unneeded.
The whole thing could soon be over? Wow. I mean 2003 could be described as the 'year of the SCO'. A day without SCO news on slashdot is like.... I can barely remember what it was like before.
For IBM's lawyers to get the licensing issues ironed out so they could use the Imperial March while slow-motion walking into the courtroom? Or the schedueling and accomidation issues for a full marching band?
Nor does anyone. If there is a single judge that finds a single Linux user guilty of that bullcrap promoted by SCO, I vote that all the /. community go castrate him!!! (or simply force him to read out loud the whole source code... that could be a good punishment too...)
I mean... are there any "law officials" that actually know some stuff about programming and computers? IBM is just stating the obvious here, they shouldn't even have to do so.
After 3 days without programming, life becomes meaningless
- The Tao of Programming
If the judge grants the motion then SCO effectively has no case and the whole thing is over.
Surely this is never, ever the case? Can't SCO just counter in some way to drag the thing on and on?
I'll catch you next time TORVALDS!!!
Next Up: SCO vs US Government
Go not unto/. for advice, for you will be told both yea and nay (but have nothing to do with the question)
IBM is a decades-old giant in the American business community with a reputation to maintain, and will most assuredly have done their homework before trying to make such a bold move. This stands in contrast to SCO, which has basically bet their whole company on the outcome of these suits, and is thus willing to try just about anything, no matter how desperate, to make their case.
Hmmm... I wonder what color parachute Darl has...
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
I'm most of the way through IBM's pleading of the counterclaims. I have one word:
Wow!
This is so well laid out that even a child of 6 could understand what it is that SCO has been up to these past 12 months. When I read IBM's lawyers' work, I want to jump up and dance with glee at the utter beauty seen within.
When I read the work of SCO's lawyers or any statements made by the buffoons directing them, I want to cry. It seriously makes my head hurt, trying to wrap my brain around the utter bullshit they continue to spout.
IBM has landed a crushing blow to SCO's claims. I predict that over the remainder of this week and through next we will see SCO's stock plummet back to its true value -- less than $1.
Happy happy happy
Joy joy joy
I wonder if SCO have enough power to make this refused and leave this suit as it is (uncertain) so they can profit from it. Everybody knows that this make no sense, it is just a matter of how long SCO will profit from media coverage and letter they send (would call it spam) to forture 500 companies. Long live to free software (as in free speach). I'd like free beer as well.
In the late 1970's Microsoft licensed UNIX source code from AT&T which at the time was not licensing the name UNIX. Therefore Microsoft created the name Xenix. Microsoft did not sell Xenix to end-users but instead licensed the software to software OEMs such as Intel, Tandy, Altos and SCO who then provided a finished version of their own Xenix to the end-users or other customers. SCO introduced its first version of Xenix named SCO Xenix System V for the Intel 8086 and 8088 in 1983. Today SCO Xenix is one of the more commonly used and found versions of Xenix.
Linux was based on Minix. A UnixLite OS designed to run on PCs. However, it was really only a teaching tool. Andrew Tanenbaum repeatedly refused to add the new (legitimate) features the users and even developers asked for. Linus Torvalds set out simply to add functionality to his own version of Minix (the copyright allows use to do so for your own personal use, but you cannot sell or distibute it).
Over time, in adding functionality to Minix, Linus Torvalds found that he had created an entirely new kernel. I was very similar to Minix but used none of the Minix source code. Torvalds had originally called it freax, for "`free' + `freak' + the obligatory `-x'. The operator of the FTP server where Linus' new kernel made its debut didn't like the name and simply called it Linux (Linus + Unix). People seemed to like the name so it stuck.
While SCO certainly looks like a despicable villan, it wasn't all that long ago that I viewed IBM in exactly the same light. So you'll have to excuse me from participating while everyone else chants "go IBM". Let's also not forget Microsoft's position in this affair, supplying the cash so that SCO could wage this legal war.
Wouldn't it be a dream world if all the lawyers spent all their employers' money suing each other and left us alone to produce world class open source software?
It seems to me that open software is the only way to break the enternal circle of despising an abusing software company, waiting until it self-destructs and promptly promoting another one into the same position.
SCOX
I shorted it at 17.96 in early January. I'm a happy camper if IBM wins this.
If I had been born without a conscience I could have been a lawyer instead of a geek. Law suits will never be outsourced. 8^D
Too lazy to create a sig...
While we were planning on adopting Linux as our new development platform, we have not.
So you're a law firm and you were looking at a Linux development platform. Uh, yeah. Right. You dirty little troll.
I'm wearing blue stripes to work tomorrow!!!
I love IBM...
So this declaratory judgement that IBM is not infringing copyright is very tangent to the SCO vs IBM case. But of course, it would give very nice munition against the SCO out-of-court FUD, which is probably why IBM is asking for it. It might also have an impact on SCO vs google etc., I don't understand the issue well enough to judge this.
Also, that IBM is filing for this judgement now doesn't mean that the judge will rule on this next week. AFAI understand, this judgement will just be part of the final ruling on the case.
Here's the typical "the case must have merit because the guys who filed it are smart" argument often given by the trolls on the Yahoo SCOX board. Yes, McBride has gotten wealthy by filing groundless lawsuits. He sued a previous employer that fired him for incompetence. It's called "greenmail", where the respondent would rather settle than face and expensive and costly trial process.
Another troll tactic used in this post is saying there are "compelling" pro-SCO information, without saying what it is. Hey, if there was such great pro-SCO stuff on Groklaw, repeat some of it here!
Troll! Dirty, slimey troll!
nuff said
Once SCO is fucking dead, we can get back to coding and building fun toys, and maybe some useful things too, with the Linux kernel, without this damn fiaSCO hanging over our heads. It would also be nice to see someone persue some sort of criminal investigation against the SCO execs, but I'm not holding my breath.
And even better would be Darl's head on a pike, but I don't think we do that sort of thing anymore, right? :)
disclaimer: no, I don't *really* want to see Mr. McBride dead, call off your snipers you crazy SOBs.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
A victory by IBM on the motion for declaratory judgment would be fantastic, but it wouldn't be the end of this lawsuit. SCO is actually not making any copyright or trade secret claims against IBM as of their most recent amended complaint (which is centered on bizarre contract interpretations); IBM is simply trying to close that avenue down for them to try and use in the future. However, this is a Good Thing for other people, because if granted it will put the kibosh on many of SCO's other claims. If IBM didn't violate any copyrights, how could AutoZone? But it's not time to break out the champagne yet -- especially until the judge actually rules on the thing.
If the judge grants what IBM wants, the case will be over, SCO's stock price will have created much revenue for them, as did the investment by MS, Linux will have had doubt cast upon it needlessly, and there will have been no punishment for Darl.
I wish IBM would fight them in court, win, and countersue for further damages to prove the point.
There's a Good Thing that has happened as a result of the SCO saga to date:
the Linux development commmunity is now being a lot more careful about code re-use, attribution, credits, and licensing issues in redistributed packages.
According to the filing as read by me on groklaw, SCO's attempt to impose extra licensing requirements puts them in breach of GPL section 5, which terminates their right to distribute under section 4. (ianal, could have read it completely wrong)
IBM has IP in linux that they have only licensed under GPL. If SCO has no GPL rights, they have no right to distribute the code, and they're therefore infringing IBM's copyright.
Warning: May contain nuts
These are intelligent, wealthy people, and they did not get that way by filing groundless lawsuits.
Assumes facts not in evidence.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
Here's what the [H]'s website says about it:
Work is punishment for failing to procrastinate effectively.
Hahahah!
Ok... So a lawyer with a medium-sized corporation, and obviously isn't up on technology considering this priceless line, "it is simply unreasonable to assume that SCO's case is completely baseless. These are intelligent, wealthy people, and they did not get that way by filing groundless lawsuits."
So a lawyer who's not up on technology, gives a flying fuck enough to come to slashdot and post this, and takes a shot at groklaw while doing so...?
Maybe it's high-time to completely ditch anonymous postings, or maybe mod points just shouldn't be given out so easily.
Folks, unless they include something to give themselves some credibility, DON'T TAKE ANONYMOUSLY POSTINGS SERIOUSLY!!!
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
> "These are intelligent, wealthy people"
so were Enron, et-al.
You say you are an attorney? If my attorney made a decision on pure hearsay, i woudl fire him/her. You did not give us any facts, just the presumption that they must be a fine upstanding company. Well so is IBM, and IBM happens to be MORE than SCO. On that assumption you have decided to ditch Linux, and go for MS? Nice deal you got with them!
Groklaw is a site for us NON-LAWYERS. As an attorney, surely you dont need to go to Groklaw of all places right??? you shoudl be well versed on the facts. In fact you shoudl be CONTRIBUTING to the knowledge on Groklaw, not reading it!
I doubt you are a attorney, just a troll.
Good bye, and nice try.
Have a nice day!
And we have Linux all over the place. Replacing Windows and elderly Unix boxes at an accelerating pace.
We're ignoring SCO. Completely.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
We have held off on adopting Linux...it is simply unreasonable to assume that SCO's case is completely baseless.
I'm sure it's not completely baseless. But, the premise of a flat world isn't completely baseless, either. What I've seen from SCO to prove their point has been rather sketchy. You are entitled to your own opinion and to make business decisions accordingly. And, yes, it would be a shame if cogent, pro-SCO analysis were artificially suppressed. Perhaps you could point out some of those posts.
But here's something to think about for the future.
If your company loses money by delaying a Linux migration primarily because of the SCO suit, you might want to collect together evidence leading to that decision.
Should it ever some to light that the SCO suit were frivilous and possibly motivated by some third party that stood to gain by deliberately supporting a frivilous suit, then your company and others might stand to make up some of the lost revenue for being deliberately misled as part of a broader conspiracy that might not be legal.
If you're an internal counsel for your company, pursuing redress might provide you with plenty of work.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
For those of you who (like me) regularly check groklaw for updates and news, they've got a cut down headlines-only page.
= Headlines
http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page
That page puts less stress on their server, so if you'd like to help reduce their bandwidth costs...
Warning: May contain nuts
They added 9 more copyright infringement items
to the list.
Time to lower the boom!
25 years ago, if you told me that IBM would be the champion of the little guy, I would have told you that you were nuts.
Lawyers bill by the hour ==> More hours means more income!
Grundgesetz * 23. Mai 1949 - 30. November 2007 - http://www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/
Tiny little SCO is about to get raped. This ought to be fun.
Best thing IBM could do is OWN SCO (as settlement for their legal fees), then license Unix for free...
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
Everyone files for declaratory (tell that SOB that he's full of shit!) or summary (we don't need no stinking trial, find me innocent right now!) judgement in civil cases. Judges almost never issue them. While it is emotionally good to see IBM responding in some way, this really doesn't indicate or change anything about the status of the case.
who are those slashdot people? they swept over like Mongol-Tartars.
Folks, this filing is a "Duh" -- not because it's valid, but because any competent attorney will file for a declaratory judgement. After all, the judge might grant it, and there's no harm in trying.
I don't think that they expect the judge to grant the motion, though. IBM would have to show that there's no controversy about SCO holding the copyrights to the UNIX code in question, and that's patently false. SCO claims the copyrights and has documents the appear to show that. Novell has documents which might impose some limitations on the transfer, but it isn't clear that they apply in this case, or that they're valid. SCO has affadavits from the people who signed the original documents which appear to show that they intended to transfer the copyrights in full. That matter is currently under judicial review, and until it's resolved, that controversy prevents a declaratory judgement.
I expect the judge to deline to rule on the motion in the interests of allowing Novell v. SCO to proceed unimpeded. IBM's attorneys have to try, both because they might win, and because if the Novell case goes against SCO, then IBM will have it in the record that they asked for declaratory judgement earlier, and so can forestall some procedural objections from SCO in that case.
Normally, these motions are standard, but I think this one may fly since IBM is waiving the Novell / Old SCO APA claiming that Novell maintains oversight of the whole UNIX business and has told SCO to sit down and shut up. That alone may actually get this motion approved.
Wu-Tang Name: Half-Cut Skeleton Get your own Wu-Na
Even if the SCO's copyrights are ruled invalid, Microsoft still purchased a license from SCO. Considering Darl's claims that SCO owns "millions of lines of code" in the Linux kernel, couldn't Microsoft take this as an arguably legal way to circumvent the GPL, and pillage code from the kernel? If they were confronted about using the GPL'd kernel code in their proprietary products, Microsoft could say that they purchased the license to use the code in good faith, and "didn't know" that SCO didn't own the code. Scary...
When you have a user ID as high as mine it gets a little difficult finding a name not taken ;)
57. ...In its first complaint, SCO principally alleged that IBM had
misappropriated SCO's trade secrets in UNIX System V....
60. ...SCO further persisted in maintaining for nearly a year the unsound claim
that IBM had misappropriated its trade secrets. Yet when pressed to identify a
single trade secret that IBM had allegedly misappropriated, SCO could not, even
after being ordered to do so by the Court. SCO finally (and properly) abandoned
this claim, upon which SCO's entire lawsuit was initially premised, in its
Seconded Amended Complaint.
72. Although its initial complaints against IBM did not include a claim for copyright infringement, SCO stated publicly after it filed suit that IBM had infringed SCO's copyrights, and threatened to sue IBM for copyright infringement with respect to Linux. For example, at its 2003 SCO Forum conference, SCO represented to attendees, including press and financial analysts, that Linux is an unauthorized derivative of UNIX, that IBM had infringed its rights in Linux, and that SCO was entitled to damages and injunctive relief against IBM.
73. At the December 5, 2003 hearing concerning discovery issues, SCO further represented to the Court that SCO would be filing a copyright infringement action against IBM "within the coming few days or no less than a week."
102. Yet despite an Order directing SCO, among other things, to "identify and state with specificity the source code(s) that SCO is claiming form the basis of their action action against IBM" by January 12 2004, SCO failed adequately to do so. In its supplemental responses purportedly submitted in compliance with the Order, SCO still failed to identify a single line of UNIX System V code that IBM allegedly misappropriated or misused.
103. In fact, finally realizing that it could no longer maintain the illusion that IBM had misappropriated its trade secrets, SCO dropped its trade secret claim altogether. SCO continues, however, to press equally meritless contract and other claims against IBM, despite being unwilling to identify the UNIX System V code that IBM allegedly misused in violation of any agreement.
But who would want it?
Don't forget the Chewbacca defense!
"There is no teacher but the enemy."-Mazer Rackham
" I'm an attorney in a medium size corporation. We have held off on adopting Linux."
As a 25 year IT professional and a director at a large corporation, let me assure you that we don't call the lawyers for stuff like this.
Because the lawyers won't answer your question anyway, and they're usually just plain wrong ("The GPL, according to my understanding of the law is only valid in the state of Delaware, or other communist nations")
So they're probably using Linux, but they're not getting you involved because (a) you can't help anyway (b) you'd stop progress (c) your verbal advice is almost certainly wrong.
But on the plus side, you probably drive a nice, safe, comfortable car, have 2.2 kids, and you're a real community asset.
time to run and sell my SCO shares! ;-)
ESR is the obvious choice for Jar Jar here. He has great hopes, and the best of intentions, but he's just a nut.
Companies like this will serve a a basis for assessing damages against it for a false claim.
IBM may have invented..... but Microsoft (and SCO) sure made it popular!
Have a nice day!
I mean...you do contribute code, right? You don't just compile and complain do you?
I have some experience with the type of lawyers IBM hires as litigators in social situations - I was involved as a witness in a product conterfiting suit about ten years ago.
To make me feel at ease, here in Toronto they took me out to dinner (Shopsey's at Yonge and Front) followed by a show at Second City.
Over dinner, the conversation ranged over such fascinating topics as the low percentage of both Canadians and Americans that could name all the judges on the countries supreme court, the need for all engineers to have mandatory training in evidence collection, documenting and testifying, explanation of the correct terms to use in the deposition process, which of the firm's offices were best for aspiring new hires and how much BMWs cost in Canada.
During the show, one of the lawyers actually started taking notes, recording what he thought were inappropriately used registered statements in the show - during the intermission they debated on the differences between Canadian and US law and whether or not the useage would be legal in the US.
At the end of the evening, they were happy that they were able to "sneak in a few minutes" talking about business, as this would allow them to claim the evening expenses as well as the time spent over dinner and the show as billable hours.
All in all, I found it to be a pretty traumatic evening.
At no time did I get the feeling that these people were normal human beings. On a personal level, they can't function with normal human beings. On a professional level, they are more than competent and although they will bleed you dry.
But, if they are working for you, I'm sure they'll devote more than 100% of their waking hours to your case. So, I guess looking at it from this dimension, they are excellent friends to have.
myke
Mimetics Inc. Twitter
...the word "effectively".
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Not much of a stretch of the imagination to get there.
After his defeat will Mcbride remember he was once a jedi and kill the Empror Gates?
if it weren't for those meddling kids and their penguin.
If IBM try to turn against the free/open source community then this court filing would turn into a weapon against them. IBM are saying to the judge, "we're 100% behind Linux and the GPL". It would be very hard for them to now turn against the free/open source movement.
Not at all. The GPL is a license to distribute copyrighted works but this isn't a paper-rock-scissors thing.
I may write code today to which I hold the copyright and may chose to distribute the code under the GPL. However, that doesn't mean that the code is then unencumbered by a patent held by someone else.
If, in the future, FOSS significantly threatens IBM's revenue stream then it may indeed be in their best interests to use their patent portfolio to quash competing products, irrespective of the validity of, or their continued recognition of, the GPL.
Trusted by cats.
There is more to this story than even the average computer guru knows. Most MSCE's don't even understand these things.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
When, not if, when SCO loses it's case against IBM and finally stops flailing around then linux (and all free software) will have moved into attack positions. How many pointy-haired bosses and small business owners watched those IBM commercials during the superbowl and began to think "if IBM is doing it ..." and how many decision makers are looking at companies moving to free alternatives and saving money like AutoZone? It doesn't matter where linux came from or whether it's just a toy OS, large and small companies alike are using it successfully and they are saving money. This is reality. Right now it's just a small pebble at the top of a snow-capped mountain, picking up a bit of snow and rolling forward. Gaining momentum.
It's not about linux or copyrights. It's about information. Computer code (even the OS) is just information, it's not a product. To make it a product you must artificially control distribution. Information cannot be controlled.
For linux and free software to win, they only need to be allowed to play. If SCO wins this case they will put a major roadblock in the way of allowing the use of free software. But if SCO loses, then free software has it's foot in the door and momentum is already pressing hard to push the masses past the doorframe.
Free software, if allowed to grow, will change the business landscape. It will do what the DOJ could not, turn Microsoft into a services company. When free software becomes a major part of the business world and open source programmers are being paid to contribute their service of information to the industry, Microsoft will have no choice but to change (if they want to continue to compete). They will be forced to write software that interacts with free alternatives and more and more people will realize they have a choice in what OS their computer runs. Many may still want to run Windows for the same reason many choose AOL as an ISP, convenience. Having everything in front of you with simple wizards explaining all of it is a convenient service that many will pay for. But only if Microsoft can stay ahead of the alternative, only if they can provide some service that is not found in other software, only if they can compete with others on a level field.
Maybe one day we can look back at this case and say "this is where we turned the corner, this is where we toppled the greed of those who want to hoard information for their own benefit, this is where the river started flowing, a river where anyone can cup their hands and take a drink."
you're all figments of my deranged imagination
There have been SCO supporters saying that a Utah jury would be likely to support a home team David, being "bullied" by Goliath IBM.
This isn't neccessarily reasonable. Utah is home to a _lot_ of high tech people. IBM, Novell, EBay, CA, and dozens of other big names in tech have significant workforce in Utah. The local papers may paint a pro-SCO picture, but the reality on the ground is a little different. If the newspaper reporters bothered to peek into their own server rooms, they would find a bunch of Utah geeks cheering against SCO.
I read through the motion and, although IANAL, I thought it was well reasoned and really layed out everything the way it is, especially SCO's hypocrisy. It was also kind of cool to see the term "fear, uncertainty, and doubt" used several times. (They did spell it out, suggesting that they didn't think the judge would know what FUD means).
SCO has admitted no trade secrets were misappropriated; they dropped that claim, and cannot resurrect it now. Standing alone, the loony-tune derivative works theory will fall flat with a bang, and the "we terminated their AIX license" claim is multiply invalid. So they have NO case against IBM.
IBM, OTOH, has an airtight GPL violation case against SCO, even if SCO hasn't put GPL'ed code into proprietary products (a likely event which IBM should now be in a position to know about from discovery). THAT puts SCO out of business if IBM so desires; no SCOSource program, no OpenLinux distro, no Linux Kernel Personalities, probably no UnixWare at all. And IBM has no motivation to be merciful.
"My strength is as the strength of ten men, for I am wired to the eyeballs on espresso."
He piles up the regular SCO employees and investors underneath him to make a nice soft landing he can walk away from.
What IBM did was to restrict their mainframe operating system code so that it could not be licensed for use on non-IBM hardware. Eventually this was thrown out allowing vendors to build IBM compatibles. In the case of Linux, and the open source movement, IBM is well locked in now.
See my journal, I write things there
That doesn't make sense to me; if anybody was hoping for a settlement due to costs involved it would have been SCO.
IBM is using it's staff lawyers, they get paid if they are in court, or they get paid if they're standing arround the water-cooler talking football; any real costs of the case are trivial like filing, and copying fees. SCO on the other hand hired external lawyers, who are paid with cash, wallpaper(sco stock) and probably a percent of the proceeds in addition to expenses which are around what $300-$600 per hour per lawyer. If anybody was going to use expenses as an inducement to settle it would hae been IBM!
SCO should be like the small dog lying on it's back, with it's belly exposed trying not to piss itself to bad while hoping the big dog doesn't rip their belly open.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
I have never made code _contributions_ to the Linux kernel, but I have certainly made my own modifications, just none worth anyone's time but my own.
I contribute to other OSS projects, money, code, bug reports, etc.
So piss off, fucking AC...
I have never heard of a corporate legal department using or requiring a "development platform"
He didn't say he needed the development platform for the legal deparment. His "we" is speaking for the corporation, not the legal department. Presumably, Gizmos Inc, needing a new development platform for the next generation of gismos, asked their legal department for an opinion on the whole problem. If you have a legal department, it would be foolish not to use it.
And, being a lawyer, he gave the answer of maximum caution. Potential legal trouble from adopting Windows: Zero. Potential legal trouble from adopting Linux: possible, if unlikely: but very expensive if it occurs. On a cash basis, pay something for Mindows now is safer than risk company-busting lawsuit from a victorious SCO later. Management hate risk - they have enough they have to handle, without taking on avoisable risk. And on a technical basis... when did lawyers ever worry about technical problems? Let the geeks suffer.
Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
A more likely and far *better* outcome would be if UNIX was declared to be public domain.
Remember that UNIX was created before the berne convention, and before the Berne convention things were *only* copyright if you included copyright notices. The UNIX source code had no such notices, and therefore was not copyrighted. If the code isn't copyrighted, then it's public domain.
If the code is public domain, then it's impossible to sue over copyright infringement or license violations.
Fucking hilarious. Good work, mods.
Is it just me, or can anybody see a April Fool's joke on the way about this?! ;-)
Seriously, I would be very glad for all this mess to be finally over. Though I'm going to miss the fun times. Ah yes, opening up my browser and heading over to /. & Groklaw to see what outrageous claims SCO were making that day.
A woodchuck would chuck all the wood it could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood.
The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
Since when did The Smoking Gun get involved in this case?
Oh wait, you mean THE SCO GROUP.
Well why don't you just say "SCO" like every other human on the planet?
You are not special.
IBM has finally started directing the case into those areas that they are strong in and SCO is weak in (facts) and out of those areas that SCO is strong in and IBM is weak in (baseless allegations and conjcture). As such, it seems very likely that they are about to (1) demonstrate themselves plowing over the SCO lawyers and (2) win.
The question I suppose would be asking is, whether this is a small thing or a small thing that the entire case turns out to hinge on, what happens to public perceptions once IBM starts winning?
SCO has been able to provide the illusion they are the lead in this even as IBM has taken them apart during the discovery phase. The media has more or less bought this. Once IBM starts leading, and IBM starts determining the path things will take in the courtroom, will the media notice? Will they see SCO's loss as the first of a number of losses? Will they just overlook the declaratory judgement, or will they note the declaratory judgement disproves quite a number of SCO's public claims, and start looking at ? Will their attitude change at all? Will their stock price change once the people who have been buying realize, oh hey, it's possible SCO might lose after all-- and, since their entire business right now is litigation, that would leave... oh wait...
Of course this probably won't instantly kill SCO's case. But if somehow it sets off a stock "correction", it might well instantly kill SCO. It isn't likely. But it's a nice dream.
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Go look at the /bin/clear shellscript on Solaris. It's one line of code and 50 lines of copyright notices. You can be sure that System V UNIX is not in the public domain.
Do you really think Sun/HP/IBM/SGI are stupid enough to pay hundreds of millions of dollars for something they could have had for free?
Now if IBM were really serious, they would have simultaneously moved for summary judgment on this claim. In such a move, they would argue that there are no genuine issues of fact left to be resolved and that they are entitled to the relief they seek as a matter of law. This would squarely put SCO between the proverbial rock and hard place by requiring them to come forward with some credible evidence establishing that IBM isn't entitled to the declaratory judgment they seek - at least not without a trial on the issue.
"Best thing IBM could do is OWN SCO (as settlement for their legal fees), then license Unix for free..."
By own SCO, do you mean IBM ought to by them out?
Wouldn't that be giving SCO what it wants?
(money)
For once I am cheering for a big corporation...
Lawyers have some use afterall !
Sock it to em - IBM !
SCOX is at $8.40/share
tick.. tick.. tick..
From an article today on Businessweek
Do you think the soldiers of yore were "normal" people? They knew how to fight against their enemies, but often when there was peace, they started up wars again because it was the only thing they knew how to do. There are many similarities in their behavior to the behavior of lawyers now.
I much prefer the court system to resorting to violence to resolve disputes. Imagine IBM and SCO duking it out with private armies.
Powerful friends are good to have, but it's always good to remember that powerful friends have other friends as well... Who may not like you so much.
http://quote.money.cnn.com/quote/quote?symbols=S COX>=1dy
Today is the first blow of many that will take SCO's stock back to the penny-stock pink sheet.
"Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was a suspect."- Steven Wright
If it's a pure contract case, it only affects IBM and SCO. Third parties aren't involved. The general Linux community issue goes away.
And if it's a pure contract case, it can't cost IBM more than any actual damages SCO suffered. SCO's sales are tiny and have been for years. That puts a lid on potential damages.
So if IBM wins on the copyright issue, it's effectively over.
What's the point of an inside joke if you tell everyone what it's about?
/. mods won't surrender their 1337ness that easily...
No no, the little
That's what this case is actually all about. SCOX was practically a penny-stock when this started. Darl had no idea how to get them out of that hole by innovating, so litigation gave the stockholders the stock bounce they needed and demanded.
Now, the stock is dropping again. A buddy of mine (who is a broker) told me that the bubble will burst at about $4.50. At that poing, the drop to under a dollar will be very fast. Once that happens, these cases will go away because SCO will either have to hold it's remaining money to find another way out (wow! you mean innovate and try some R & D?!?) or follow this rabbit into insolvency very quickly.
Once the stocks hit >$4, Darl's "strategy" will be considered a failure, and SCO will fire him and seek another company to buy them (for virtually nothing) or stagger on as a dying company maintaining a shrinking customer base of legacy-UNIX systems.
"Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was a suspect."- Steven Wright
Your mother.
just like the golden shower he'll be treated to when this is all sorted out.
It reminds me of my last job interview: this guy asked me "Please tell us at least two Microsoft utilities you'd use for testing network connectivity?" Later I found out that he was looking for Ping and Traceroute commands. Funny but true. Hard to believe but there are clueless Windoze people out there who don't know any better...
They die so well...
I think i speak for us all when i say "W00T!"
This is a troll. Mod accordingly.
Implying that people have stopped coding on Linux because of this "fiaSCO" is trolling in itself. The only people this really bothers is the advocate crowd (ie, you), it hasn't affected the developers (ie, not you). -- Not the same AC
Look at IBM. I don't think they'd act unless they were sure that the rope wouldn't break. And since SCO is banking on appearances, and doesn't seem by word or deed or research to have argument one that will win in court, I'd bet the rope will "hold". Of course, "once lawyers get involved the only sure thing is that lawyers will make money."
Nope. I mean they should use the courts to punish SCO so badly that their only option would be to give IBM all of their shares as penalty.
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
If you mean the Utah locals of the predominant religion, then I agree. I work in Mesa, AZ, which is also of that same religious persuasion predominately, and I've noticed a large catering toward members of the religion in particular compared to those who don't share the same set of spiritual beliefs. So, if this is all handled in Utah court then SCO/Caldera might try to pull "we're all one big happy family and IBM is hurting a part of the family" type bullshit argument, and worse yet, in the right area it would work. Hopefully this will not be allowed.
SCO effectively has no case and the whole thing is over.
Then what will we talk about. Perhaps IBM's counter suit against SCO for all the damage they have caused.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
The NT lineage kernels owe their design to VMS, not Unix. This was largely a consequence of Microsoft hiring Dave Cutler, one of VMS's architects.
... and, yes, Microsoft has indeed scrupulously obeyed the terms of the GPL, in case you were wondering.)
There are commandline tools in most windows versions (e.g. ftp, ping, etc) that DO have a definite BSD lineage, but it doesn't go very deep. Superficial similarities do not deeper borrowing make.
Microsoft's justification (not, I think, their real primary reason) for licensing was actually the rather misnamed Windows services for Unix.
(Which, by the way, consists in large part of GPLed software
DNA just wants to be free...
Odd, I got my name on the first try...
I was living in Honolulu, Hawaii and involved in a very cool polyamory group there called Pali Paths. Didn't really date this lady, we were more just friends who occasionally had sex, but I did hang out with her. Nicest person you ever met: sweet, funny, and little bit geeky, even seemed a little shy.
;-) and I read the whole thing, it was only seven pages.
She was a business lawyer, worked for the city. She said she liked that because she was really always fighting bad guys, and she could let her claws out without feeling bad. She showed me one of her briefs once (don't start
I remembered the case, from the media's point of view, the other guy was a bastard who was screwing over orphans or something like that. She tied his balls in a knot and handed them to him on a platter. Used his own arguments against him, proved he was screwed if they were valid or not. You should have seen her eyes light up as she described arguing this case. I could suddenly see the shark in her, and I was frightened. She was very good, and it was obvious she could be ruthless in court. I'm sure the world is a better place because she decided to fight for the (mostly) good guys.
I say mostly because Honolulu, and really all of Hawaii is an old boy's club. The government there is at least as corrupt as most.
I had some other lawyer friends there. They were activist types, one was fighting for fair water use rights, the other was in the Hawaiian Native Sovereignty movement. They were good, dedicated people, but they didn't have that shark mentality about them. Just remember that not all lawyers are bad people.
God only knows what this has to do with SCO, just thought I'd throw out my own bit of personal experience with lawyers. I guess it does sound like IBM is doing what she did, tying the SCO lawyers' balls in a knot, so to speak, and proving that their arguments are utterly without merit.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
just call them psuedoSCO. Clarifies a lot of issues.
The case had absolutely nothing to do with orphans, it was just (in my mind) equivalent to that. I put it like that so as to not give away my friend's identity by mentioning a notable case. I don't think she wants it publicly known she is in a polyamory group. She deliberately comes off as an 'Ice Bitch' in public.
Which also goes to show, guys: that 'Ice Bitch' you know may be a little less icy than you think...
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
In your SCO-is-Vader cosmology, who's Jar Jar Binks?
David Boies is Jar Jar Binks.
It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
I nominate Jon Katz as our Jar Jar. And Eric Raymond as Han Solo. Is there anyone involved in Open Source who isn't pasty white who could be Lando Calrissian?
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Once this ends, are there any hopes for SCO to redeem themselves? I mean, there's potential for them to actually contribute. Granted, there's now this factor of trust, and whether the Linux dev community will consider them indian givers.
This sig no verb.
Perhaps Darl managed to dump his options and just doesn't care any more.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Gates is the Emperor manipulating everything in the back ground and when McBride(Vader) is beaten and humiliated, maybe he will turn on the emperor, taking the emperor down with him.
oh yeah, ballmer is jaba the hut
Waiting this long might have also helped to consolidate IBMs position in Linux land. A lot of Linux companies got badly hurt, but IBM has the reserves to wait it out. By delaying things a lot of IBMs competition gets wiped out or at least roughed up somewhat.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
SCO convention right after defcon
A blog about stuff.
They both dance, don't they?
Something makes me think that Deep Blue might be planning IBM's legal strategy...
I keep hearing all this talk about how smart IBM's lawyers are. I happen to think SCO's lawyers are pretty smart too. We've heard about how much money SCO's been spending so far. Whether or not SCO wins or not, if the longer SCO lawyers can drag this thing out the more money they make.
More evidence for Ellison being Jar-Jar: Ellison's hobby is sailing, and Jar-Jar is from underwater...
I think this is 100% correct. They do believe that they are doing a good, moral and original job. This justifies them in lieing, cheating and stealing because the end justifies the means, and they are the good guys. Just like Bush and the current administration, in their quest for Total World Domination.....
And they completed the death star while they distraced everyone with these lawsuits.
They'll get "liberated" on short notice. Be sure to have lots of popcorn and beer ready cause it'll be a spectacle. News flash: International terrorist and leader of the notorious SCO organization Darl McBride is being flushed out from his hiding hole in southern Utah by operation Smolthering Earth.
There seems to nothing new here. Groklaw:
UPDATE: I have been reading the document itself now, and there isn't anything new on the GPL front. They asked for a declaratory judgment regarding the GPL in their earlier counterclaims. IBM is challenging SCO's copyrights. That seems to mean that they are defining this as a true copyright fight, not a contract dispute, something SCO has avoided so far. SCO will have to prove they own these copyrights now, no matter what the judge rules on SCO's Motion to Remand in the Novell matter. And they will have to show the code they claim is infringing and prove they hold copyright ownership of that code and that the copyrights they hold relate to the allegedly infringing code. Considering that they have publicly admitted that they don't own the copyrights to the allegedly infringing code, it will be interesting to see how they answer this. (emphasis added)
1st - Windows NT has *always* had a Posix compliant kernal. Many Unix command line apps can be recompiled and run just fine. A Posix compliancy was specified by IBM when M$ was working on OS/2 and they "borrowed" many of these features for their own product they were secretly developing - or have y'all forgot the big IBM/Windows battles of yore?
2nd - Microsoft had a product called XENIX which SCO originally distributed meaning that Microsoft had a license for Unix before SCO even had a product! I'm unsure of the fate of XENIX.
3rd - hope this isn't too blunt or incendiary for you but to say that Windows 95 and NT were very Unix like makes me wonder how much Unix you've been exposed to. Hint - the GUI is just the paint job.
4th - I'd like to point out that at the time of NT 3.51 there was already a capable version of Linux that had X installed. It was a PITA to configure the dotclock frequencies and stuff - that's why most of us opted for the Trident video cards as it was in the "standard" xconfiguration. So there was in fact alternatives to SCO and XENIX and all the other Unix variants out there. At that time though it was at a "hobbyist" level and considered incapable of commercial reliability (though I had one running on a 386 for a year and half that was never rebooted).
Regards,
BubbaJonBoy