I think you will find that your opinion is not supported by case law. I do not have the right to reception, but you (a third party) do not have the right to purposefully disrupt my reception.
I see what you're saying, but I still take issue with your assumption that "passenger does not pull out safety card" = "passenger does not know the information". I don't consult my math book every time I need to do some addition.
And, yes, persons of size have taken the airlines to task on "discrimination", especially in regard to the 2-seat requirement.
However, the fines from the FAA if the FA does not follow certain regulations are very steep. These fines are applied to the FA personally, not just the FA's employer. For example, I happen to witness an altercation between an FA and a passenger, who insisted that her oversized dog carrier was regulation size and that she flies with it twice a week. It was too large and could not go under the seat in front of her without partially obstructing the aisle. The FA, after eventually kicking her off the flight, made a comment to me that he was not going to chance it because if the FAA catches the violation he would be fined $10,000 personally.
If that were true, we would have figured it out by now. Individuals who are highly skilled, and therefore have certain pathways activated frequently, would lose that skill more quickly than their other skills.
> then we "sell" to each other our "stakes" in these > wonders of modern enterpreneurship for, say, > conservatively, 20 million US dollars (or Euros) a > share
Actually, it's pretty clear to me that you missed something. The quote you included from the summary is pretty much exactly what the parent to your comment said. If 75% of that purchase price was for an exclusive advertising deal, then it is pretty faulty logic to assume that 100% of the purchase price was for the 1.6% stake in the company, right? Therefore, only an idiot would extrapolate that to say 100% of the company is worth $15B. That makes no sense.
But, that's what the CNN reporters on the TV next to me are saying!
> If the dot-com boom and embarrassing posting on > slashdot about being worthy a lot of money are > any indication, the owners should start selling their sharesnow
Why do I feel like I missed something really, really good...
So, you're telling me you would prefer to have Joe Sixpack, who didn't realize he couldn't bring his pocket knife through security anymore, sit in the exit row than someone who has flown 150+ segments this year?
These safety briefings are either recorded or read from a script. What benefit does listening to the same exact words have to me as an exit row passenger? To compare the responsibilities of an exit row passenger to the responsibilities of the pilot is pretty ridiculous. The pilot has a checklist because there are a shitload of things to remember. I just have to remember to pull the damn lever if we're all about to die.
And, by the way, I am one of those people who flies 150+ flight segments per year, and I have seen FAs kick people out of the exit row many times for being (a) too young, (b) too old, (c) too fat.
> "Would you like your bag to be handled > extra-carefully? For a small fee we can make sure > your bag doesn't get dropped or run over by a > baggage cart, or maybe show up with the handles > wrenched off. Heh-heh."
Have you checked your baggage before?! I would give my left arm for a service like this!
First, I did not mean "ignorant" in an offensive way, so I apologize if you took it that way. I just meant simply that this is typically not something a customer pays any attention to, so he/she attributes the price fluctuation to something entirely different.
Actually, the fares are for product differentiation. Yes, there is coach, business, and first classes. These are classes of fares. The fares themselves are there to offer the customer options. Are your plans flexible to the point where there is little chance you would have to change your ticket? Well then you can purchase a Q coach fare, the rules of which require a 3 week advance non-refundable purchase and a $200 fee if you need to change anything about the ticket. Do you need to book a flight for two days from now to Chicago, but there is a 30% chance the meeting will be in NYC instead? Then buy a full Y coach fare, the rules of which require only a 30 min advance fully refundable purchase, and can be changed without penalty.
The reason the casual traveler doesn't know about this is (a) they don't ever, ever read the fare rules, and (b) they don't much care, because they are usually in a situation like the Q fare example above, which has the most restrictive rules.
To answer your other question, I found out because I fly a lot and these things matter to me. I have been in the Y example above a number of times and I needed to find a ticket with the appropriate rules. Admittedly, I probably have a better understanding than most people who fly as frequently as I do, and that is because I was interested by this particular pricing model and looked into it casually.
As to whether it is standard across carriers, the answer is yes and no. The fare rule sets available are pretty standard. The actual codes used to identify each of these sets are a bit more variable. M on Continental might be a cheap, highly restricted coach fare, but on Northwest it is one of the higher coach fares. That said, Y is almost always full coach fare, F or A is almost always full first fare, etc.
To your final question, it does not help me find cheaper fares, because sites by default show you the cheapest fare available on each flight (usually). But it is important to understand if the rules of these cheapest fares do not suit you.
Hope that answered your questions. I fully realize this stuff works very differently than the casual traveler believes it does, and it probably sounds overly complicated.
> Fortunately, since you never end up delayed 7 hours > on Southwest -- that only happens with airlines like > United -- this issue doesn't arise.
I suppose there could be some truth to this. Because of how WN restricts where they fly, they could have maintenance reserves at every airport. But there's no way this avoids ALL long maintenance delays where rare parts need to be flown in. And I guess because WN uses all 737s, they could have a few spare jets at each of their airports that they could swap out without incident. Again, though, this will just mitigate the issue, not eliminate it.
That said, if they have a way to avoid weather and air traffic control delays, which account for the majority, then I'd love to know their secret.
> I haven't had a single > 10 minute delay with > Southwest. Never. Not one.
Well then you're lucky, because the numbers don't lie. Here are yesterday's stats:
> 0. Dress properly. Leave the metal and piercings at home; you'll just make your security check worse.
Absolutely. And put keys, etc. in your carry on bag as you're coming up to the front of the security line. But keep your wallet in your pants!
> 1. Travel light. If you're crossing the ocean for two weeks, plan to use a laundry.
Looks like a cool site, and I haven't seen it before. Thanks for passing it along (although it seems to be geared toward the non-business traveler).
> 2. Avoid connections. If at all possible, drive to a hub airport.
I don't know about this. Starting your trip at a hub airport means dealing with big airport security and long treks to your gate. It also means expensive long-term parking which is probably off-site. All this to avoid a connection?
> 3. Planeside check on your outward trip. This ensures the baggage > monkeys don't lose your luggage.
Agree, agree, agree! They will lose your baggage if you fly frequently at all. It is a near certainty!
> 4. Check your heavy baggage on the return trip. Barcode scanners > track everything in a database in Atlanta. Airlines don't > actually lose your luggage, they just misroute it. On the way home > that's a benefit: You don't have to carry your bags to your car! > They'll deliver to your home, eventually.
Well, if they don't lose your bags, then you have to wait 30+ minutes to get your bags. And if you drove to a hub airport, you're gonna have a long ride after that. I don't know about you, but after traveling I just want to get home. I'd rather just carry on and go straight to my car.
> 5. Eat a good breakfast. You're not getting fed on the plane unless > you're crossing an ocean.
This really isn't true. Pick your airline right and have a flight of sufficient length (> 2 hrs or so) during a meal time, and you will get at least a cold meal in coach and a hot meal in first. Specifically, I fly CO twice a week and this is exactly what you get.
>6. Bring your own entertainment -- a book, videogame, etc. Unless > you're crossing the ocean on one of those new 767s with the cool > Linux personal entertainment system, you're going to be on your > own. On most flights, even if they're showing a movie, you won't be > able to see it.
Again, this really isn't true. This totally depends on what equipment you are on. If you care about this, pick your flight carefully so that you are on one of the higher 73x's or any of the 757's on a decent airline.
> 7. Noise-suppression headphones really do work.
Or earplugs. I carry musicians earplugs every time I fly. I don't care about the engine noise (as long as it's a jet -- I do get stuck on prop planes for shorter hops occasionally), but the first time you get stuck on a plane with a crying baby or a barking dog, you will understand.
> 8. Book early, book online, and select an exit-row seat. Legroom > and laptop space will be adequate for a change.
In general this is good advice. However, it is not a hard fast rule. On a CRJ (Delta Connection, some Continental Connection, Northwest Airlink, etc.), the exit row is the worst seat on the plane. No additional legroom and less padding on the seat. On the mainliners with two consecutive exit rows (eg, 73x's), the first exit row does not recline due to the exit row behind it. Also, most airlines will NOT allow you to select the exit row seat at the time of ticketing (unless, perhaps, if you have elite status). You will have to wait until check-in, so that means you want to check-in online as soon as you can, which is usually 24 hrs in advance of your flight.
Often you are better off with the bulkhead seats (for example, the first coach row). Even this, though, is not a hard fast rule. Seatguru is your friend: http://www.seatguru.com/
Your points are interesting, but they don't really apply to airlines. Airlines do not make their money on Joe Sixpack with his one $200 coach fare to Orlando per year. Most airlines make their money on business travelers purchasing inelastic last min fares that require a very specific time schedule.
Good point, but the cost would not outweigh the benefit. This system already exists for first class and elite passengers. You would just now be able to buy into this privilege.
You know, I hear this sort of thing often, as if there is some complicated algorithm behind the scenes on airline sites that screws with the ticket prices based on date. This is not how it works. The airlines allocate a certain number of fares for each flight. The 'U' or 'Q' or 'S' on your ticket identifies your fare. Each fare has its rules. The conventional wisdom about this time-price dependency is actually a consequence of certain fares having a rule where it must be purchased X days in advance. So once X days before the flight passes, those fares are no longer available based on the rules. The ignorant observer believes the price has fluctuated because the price of the lowest price fare has increased; in reality, the lowest price fare has simply changed from a 'Q' fare to an 'S' fare (or whatever), because Q fares can no longer be purchased.
The other force at work is that many people will purchase the lowest fare available. So if 4 'Z' fares are available and Z is the cheapest fare, then after those are gone the lowest fare will be something else (surely with a higher price).
The observation of your wife of a 'magic interval' is based on too small of a sample. The situation is much more complicated than the airlines just picking some random time to have low prices. Surely if the airlines were doing that they'd be losing a lot of money. (That's not to say that on the particular flight between your source and target markets on that particular airline during that particular season, the various variables don't work in such a way to make this time period the most likely to have lower price fare types available.)
Point is, very rarely do airlines alter the price of a fare itself, or even allocate more of a lower fare.
The leading carriers in the US don't want this, because their bread-and-butter customers (business travelers) don't want it. I fly twice a week on the company dime and I have flown Southwest only once. That is no coincidence.
Fly once or twice a year for a vacation? Ok, sure, who cares if you are cramped in a meatwagon with crying babies and a lack of convenience services for frequent flyers.
Fly 150+ flight segments a year as a part of your job? That is a different story, believe me. (Which, btw, is why most companies don't force you to fly budget airlines and many will purchase elite status and/or lounge access for their employees.)
Don't be ridiculous. Security theater? Yes. Annoyance of having your toiletries in a freedom baggie? Not really.
I fly twice a week and would never consider waiting 30 mins for my checked back less of an annoyance than putting my toiletries in a clear bag in my carry on.
To a certain extent there is an influence of LIFO, but it is minor. And of course, unless you are on a direct flight to your destination, then this has pretty much zero impact on whether your bags come out first.
Dude. You are talking about psychology. People here are talking about the math. These are two separate things. Relief from an increase in prices which would come with a new service is exactly the same thing as a discount for the same amount for the absence of that new service. ie,
x+y for priority bag claim x for bag claim randomized amongst non-priority bags
equals
x+y is the new price. oh, by the way, we are introducing a new service for priority bag claim if you want to opt out of this new service, we will give you a discount of -y, which gives you a cost of x+y-y=x
Slashdot Mirror
I think you will find that your opinion is not supported by case law. I do not have the right to reception, but you (a third party) do not have the right to purposefully disrupt my reception.
Let me guess, you met your girlfriend in IRC.
Connection out of jack: owner's negligence
Connection jammed: another's malice
I see what you're saying, but I still take issue with your assumption that "passenger does not pull out safety card" = "passenger does not know the information". I don't consult my math book every time I need to do some addition.
And, yes, persons of size have taken the airlines to task on "discrimination", especially in regard to the 2-seat requirement.
However, the fines from the FAA if the FA does not follow certain regulations are very steep. These fines are applied to the FA personally, not just the FA's employer. For example, I happen to witness an altercation between an FA and a passenger, who insisted that her oversized dog carrier was regulation size and that she flies with it twice a week. It was too large and could not go under the seat in front of her without partially obstructing the aisle. The FA, after eventually kicking her off the flight, made a comment to me that he was not going to chance it because if the FAA catches the violation he would be fined $10,000 personally.
(Why anyone would want to be an FA is beyond me.)
If that were true, we would have figured it out by now. Individuals who are highly skilled, and therefore have certain pathways activated frequently, would lose that skill more quickly than their other skills.
> then we "sell" to each other our "stakes" in these
> wonders of modern enterpreneurship for, say,
> conservatively, 20 million US dollars (or Euros) a
> share
Hmmm. I'll pick.... 20m Euros. Thanks.
Actually, it's pretty clear to me that you missed something. The quote you included from the summary is pretty much exactly what the parent to your comment said. If 75% of that purchase price was for an exclusive advertising deal, then it is pretty faulty logic to assume that 100% of the purchase price was for the 1.6% stake in the company, right? Therefore, only an idiot would extrapolate that to say 100% of the company is worth $15B. That makes no sense.
But, that's what the CNN reporters on the TV next to me are saying!
> If the dot-com boom and embarrassing posting on
> slashdot about being worthy a lot of money are
> any indication, the owners should start selling their sharesnow
Why do I feel like I missed something really, really good...
Anyone got a link?
Um... no. Perhaps you should stay awake during your next Business 101 class???
Actually those are pesos.
So, you're telling me you would prefer to have Joe Sixpack, who didn't realize he couldn't bring his pocket knife through security anymore, sit in the exit row than someone who has flown 150+ segments this year?
These safety briefings are either recorded or read from a script. What benefit does listening to the same exact words have to me as an exit row passenger? To compare the responsibilities of an exit row passenger to the responsibilities of the pilot is pretty ridiculous. The pilot has a checklist because there are a shitload of things to remember. I just have to remember to pull the damn lever if we're all about to die.
And, by the way, I am one of those people who flies 150+ flight segments per year, and I have seen FAs kick people out of the exit row many times for being (a) too young, (b) too old, (c) too fat.
Did you pick Cincinnati because Delta reminds you of a dirty old shirt?
> "Would you like your bag to be handled
> extra-carefully? For a small fee we can make sure
> your bag doesn't get dropped or run over by a
> baggage cart, or maybe show up with the handles
> wrenched off. Heh-heh."
Have you checked your baggage before?! I would give my left arm for a service like this!
First, I did not mean "ignorant" in an offensive way, so I apologize if you took it that way. I just meant simply that this is typically not something a customer pays any attention to, so he/she attributes the price fluctuation to something entirely different.
Actually, the fares are for product differentiation. Yes, there is coach, business, and first classes. These are classes of fares. The fares themselves are there to offer the customer options. Are your plans flexible to the point where there is little chance you would have to change your ticket? Well then you can purchase a Q coach fare, the rules of which require a 3 week advance non-refundable purchase and a $200 fee if you need to change anything about the ticket. Do you need to book a flight for two days from now to Chicago, but there is a 30% chance the meeting will be in NYC instead? Then buy a full Y coach fare, the rules of which require only a 30 min advance fully refundable purchase, and can be changed without penalty.
The reason the casual traveler doesn't know about this is (a) they don't ever, ever read the fare rules, and (b) they don't much care, because they are usually in a situation like the Q fare example above, which has the most restrictive rules.
To answer your other question, I found out because I fly a lot and these things matter to me. I have been in the Y example above a number of times and I needed to find a ticket with the appropriate rules. Admittedly, I probably have a better understanding than most people who fly as frequently as I do, and that is because I was interested by this particular pricing model and looked into it casually.
As to whether it is standard across carriers, the answer is yes and no. The fare rule sets available are pretty standard. The actual codes used to identify each of these sets are a bit more variable. M on Continental might be a cheap, highly restricted coach fare, but on Northwest it is one of the higher coach fares. That said, Y is almost always full coach fare, F or A is almost always full first fare, etc.
To your final question, it does not help me find cheaper fares, because sites by default show you the cheapest fare available on each flight (usually). But it is important to understand if the rules of these cheapest fares do not suit you.
Hope that answered your questions. I fully realize this stuff works very differently than the casual traveler believes it does, and it probably sounds overly complicated.
> Fortunately, since you never end up delayed 7 hours
> on Southwest -- that only happens with airlines like
> United -- this issue doesn't arise.
I suppose there could be some truth to this. Because of how WN restricts where they fly, they could have maintenance reserves at every airport. But there's no way this avoids ALL long maintenance delays where rare parts need to be flown in. And I guess because WN uses all 737s, they could have a few spare jets at each of their airports that they could swap out without incident. Again, though, this will just mitigate the issue, not eliminate it.
That said, if they have a way to avoid weather and air traffic control delays, which account for the majority, then I'd love to know their secret.
> I haven't had a single > 10 minute delay with
> Southwest. Never. Not one.
Well then you're lucky, because the numbers don't lie. Here are yesterday's stats:
Airline: WN
Scheduled: 3375
Tracked: 3373
Departed: 3341
Canceled: 14
15-30m Delay: 511
30-45m Delay: 245
45+m Delay: 225
On time: 71%
Compare that to yesterday for UA, since you mentioned them specifically:
Airline: UA
Scheduled: 1584
Tracked: 1579
Departed: 1546
Canceled: 26
15-30m Delay:157
30-45m Delay: 83
45+m Delay:166
On time: 74%
> 0. Dress properly. Leave the metal and piercings at home; you'll just make your security check worse.
Absolutely. And put keys, etc. in your carry on bag as you're coming up to the front of the security line. But keep your wallet in your pants!
> 1. Travel light. If you're crossing the ocean for two weeks, plan to use a laundry.
Looks like a cool site, and I haven't seen it before. Thanks for passing it along (although it seems to be geared toward the non-business traveler).
> 2. Avoid connections. If at all possible, drive to a hub airport.
I don't know about this. Starting your trip at a hub airport means dealing with big airport security and long treks to your gate. It also means expensive long-term parking which is probably off-site. All this to avoid a connection?
> 3. Planeside check on your outward trip. This ensures the baggage
> monkeys don't lose your luggage.
Agree, agree, agree! They will lose your baggage if you fly frequently at all. It is a near certainty!
> 4. Check your heavy baggage on the return trip. Barcode scanners
> track everything in a database in Atlanta. Airlines don't
> actually lose your luggage, they just misroute it. On the way home
> that's a benefit: You don't have to carry your bags to your car!
> They'll deliver to your home, eventually.
Well, if they don't lose your bags, then you have to wait 30+ minutes to get your bags. And if you drove to a hub airport, you're gonna have a long ride after that. I don't know about you, but after traveling I just want to get home. I'd rather just carry on and go straight to my car.
> 5. Eat a good breakfast. You're not getting fed on the plane unless
> you're crossing an ocean.
This really isn't true. Pick your airline right and have a flight of sufficient length (> 2 hrs or so) during a meal time, and you will get at least a cold meal in coach and a hot meal in first. Specifically, I fly CO twice a week and this is exactly what you get.
>6. Bring your own entertainment -- a book, videogame, etc. Unless
> you're crossing the ocean on one of those new 767s with the cool
> Linux personal entertainment system, you're going to be on your
> own. On most flights, even if they're showing a movie, you won't be
> able to see it.
Again, this really isn't true. This totally depends on what equipment you are on. If you care about this, pick your flight carefully so that you are on one of the higher 73x's or any of the 757's on a decent airline.
> 7. Noise-suppression headphones really do work.
Or earplugs. I carry musicians earplugs every time I fly. I don't care about the engine noise (as long as it's a jet -- I do get stuck on prop planes for shorter hops occasionally), but the first time you get stuck on a plane with a crying baby or a barking dog, you will understand.
> 8. Book early, book online, and select an exit-row seat. Legroom
> and laptop space will be adequate for a change.
In general this is good advice. However, it is not a hard fast rule. On a CRJ (Delta Connection, some Continental Connection, Northwest Airlink, etc.), the exit row is the worst seat on the plane. No additional legroom and less padding on the seat. On the mainliners with two consecutive exit rows (eg, 73x's), the first exit row does not recline due to the exit row behind it. Also, most airlines will NOT allow you to select the exit row seat at the time of ticketing (unless, perhaps, if you have elite status). You will have to wait until check-in, so that means you want to check-in online as soon as you can, which is usually 24 hrs in advance of your flight.
Often you are better off with the bulkhead seats (for example, the first coach row). Even this, though, is not a hard fast rule. Seatguru is your friend: http://www.seatguru.com/
Your points are interesting, but they don't really apply to airlines. Airlines do not make their money on Joe Sixpack with his one $200 coach fare to Orlando per year. Most airlines make their money on business travelers purchasing inelastic last min fares that require a very specific time schedule.
When does CO charge for an exit row?! I fly them twice a week and they definitely don't do this.
Good point, but the cost would not outweigh the benefit. This system already exists for first class and elite passengers. You would just now be able to buy into this privilege.
You know, I hear this sort of thing often, as if there is some complicated algorithm behind the scenes on airline sites that screws with the ticket prices based on date. This is not how it works. The airlines allocate a certain number of fares for each flight. The 'U' or 'Q' or 'S' on your ticket identifies your fare. Each fare has its rules. The conventional wisdom about this time-price dependency is actually a consequence of certain fares having a rule where it must be purchased X days in advance. So once X days before the flight passes, those fares are no longer available based on the rules. The ignorant observer believes the price has fluctuated because the price of the lowest price fare has increased; in reality, the lowest price fare has simply changed from a 'Q' fare to an 'S' fare (or whatever), because Q fares can no longer be purchased.
The other force at work is that many people will purchase the lowest fare available. So if 4 'Z' fares are available and Z is the cheapest fare, then after those are gone the lowest fare will be something else (surely with a higher price).
The observation of your wife of a 'magic interval' is based on too small of a sample. The situation is much more complicated than the airlines just picking some random time to have low prices. Surely if the airlines were doing that they'd be losing a lot of money. (That's not to say that on the particular flight between your source and target markets on that particular airline during that particular season, the various variables don't work in such a way to make this time period the most likely to have lower price fare types available.)
Point is, very rarely do airlines alter the price of a fare itself, or even allocate more of a lower fare.
The leading carriers in the US don't want this, because their bread-and-butter customers (business travelers) don't want it. I fly twice a week on the company dime and I have flown Southwest only once. That is no coincidence.
Fly once or twice a year for a vacation? Ok, sure, who cares if you are cramped in a meatwagon with crying babies and a lack of convenience services for frequent flyers.
Fly 150+ flight segments a year as a part of your job? That is a different story, believe me. (Which, btw, is why most companies don't force you to fly budget airlines and many will purchase elite status and/or lounge access for their employees.)
Don't be ridiculous. Security theater? Yes. Annoyance of having your toiletries in a freedom baggie? Not really.
I fly twice a week and would never consider waiting 30 mins for my checked back less of an annoyance than putting my toiletries in a clear bag in my carry on.
If you really care about snacks, then fly DL. If you really care about meals, fly CO first class.
Point is, the choice exists, so I don't see why you would complain about choosing an airline that doesn't have those services.
To a certain extent there is an influence of LIFO, but it is minor. And of course, unless you are on a direct flight to your destination, then this has pretty much zero impact on whether your bags come out first.
Dude. You are talking about psychology. People here are talking about the math. These are two separate things. Relief from an increase in prices which would come with a new service is exactly the same thing as a discount for the same amount for the absence of that new service. ie,
x+y for priority bag claim
x for bag claim randomized amongst non-priority bags
equals
x+y is the new price. oh, by the way, we are introducing a new service for priority bag claim
if you want to opt out of this new service, we will give you a discount of -y, which gives you a cost of x+y-y=x