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United Makes Plans to Drop 'Baggage Neutrality'
theodp writes "If you need a clue as to how creative ISP execs might get in the absence of network neutrality, look no further than United Airlines CEO Glenn Tilton, who is wowing Wall Street with his willingness to examine new ways to wring money out of the carrier, including making economy passengers pay a fee unless they want their luggage to come last off the plane." Now I think when i was like gold ultimate handjob elite years ago my bags had tags that usually made them come out first, but this seems just kinda crappy. I mean, remember when you got a meal on airplanes? No wonder people hate to fly.
The baggage claim is not a dump truck! You can't just keep dumping stuff on it...
"Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
First, the article saya the CEO of United "wants to pursue everything, from a merger to charging passengers who want their luggage to come first off the plane" (emphasis mine). That's a far cry from the article title which infers it's a done deal.
Deregulation brought about intense competition in airline fares. The flying public wants to get from Point A to Point B as quickly as possible. As a result, the airlines have been under continued pressure to reduce costs to stay competitive. This has resulted in charging for meals and in some cases, even pillows.
ISP's are in a similar boat with respect to intense pressure on keeping prices low. It's only a matter of time before they figure out how to charge additional
fees for "extras". You get what you pay for.
Oh, and you still get "priority" tags on your bags for being an elite frequent flyer. Whether or not your bags come out first though is strictly a matter of chance.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
I do. And I'd rather forget, believe me.
I just flew both American and United this past week. American gave me a mixed bag of sticky dried stuff, and United offered to sell me a "snack box" for the princely sum of five dollars ("Buy-Onboard service", they called it.) Both offered a free soft drink, so I suppose that's something.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Flying sucks because of all the security theater annoyance. I used not to check bags for more than half my trips, but now I have to check a bag every time because I don't feel like going through the annoyance of having my toiletries inspected at the security line. Fuck that shit. I now drive wherever possible.
[ home ]
Then remember what that plastic shit tasted like; on long haul flights I refuse the food. Watching other passengers struggling uncomfortably to stuff this processed pig swill into their mouths is almost as disgusting as the food itself. I mean, even the coffee tastes like shit!
Personally, I'd be happier if they did away with food on flights altogether.
If noone pays, the luggage will come out at the same time - but last. If everyone pays, it will come out at the same time - but first!
FRA: STFU GTFO
the meals on the plane used to be good?... Neither do I.
The airlines all have to be looking at the low cost European carriers, such as RyanAir or EasyJet. I haven't flown EasyJet in a while, but on RyanAir, the ticket covers carriage, everything else, baggage, excess baggage, drinks, priority seating, luggage tags, calls to customer service, etc. etc. are a premium. It's declared up front, and you take the "a la carte" items you wish.
The problem is, that taking one part of this model will not work, you have to take it all - very low cost tickets, fly only one type of plane, open seats, fast airport turn around, and so forth. The leading carriers in the US don't get this, so will nickel and dime without adding service or reducing costs/fares.
This doesn't seem like a neutrality issue to me.
Isn't this closer to a customer just paying for a lower latency connection?
Submitter has never worked in the airline industry before.
You will notice bright orange tags as they come off the converyor belt in baggage claim. Those tags are for GS, 1K, Premier Exec, Premier, *Gold, and *Silver. The idea is that you alert ground crews to the bags belonging to the best customers so that they will offload those first. This is no different from AA, Delta, USAirways, British Airways, Cathay Pacific, Singapore Airlines, and every other airline that flies. All Tilton wants to do is offer this service as an add-on so if you are NOT an elite member and feel it necessary to get your bags off in a hurry (tight transfer in ORD or LHR perhaps) you can purchase that service.
*wacks subby over the head*
It is also a stupid idea. It takes more work to prioritize luggage and sort it according to a set of rules determined by the price of tickets than to put the luggage on randomly in a first come, first served basis. You don't usually have to wait that long anyway. The intelligent objective is to load and unload the plane in as little time as possible. Gate time is expensive.
If they do this, it'll just mean more and more people will try to push the limits of carry-on luggage, rather than pony up for another fee. And we all know how much fun it is to be stuck in the aisle, waiting to get off the plane, while some PHB wrestles a laptop bag and an extra-large "carry-on" from the overhead bin.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
As someone who travels quite regularly for their job, I avoid the airports whenever possible because of this type of crap. These days, if it's under 500 miles each way, I'll drive it. I used to wish for the airlines to all go out of business, hoping that they'd be forced to figure out a business model that was actually profitable, but gave up on that after we (US taxpayers) were forced to bail them out after 9/11. It's a mess with no easy fix in sight, unless someone can magically make all of the airline lobbyists disappear.
Lindsay Blanton
RadioReference.com
... United Airlines CEO Glenn Tilton, who is wowing Wall Street with his willingness to examine new ways to wring money out of the carrier [CC], including making economy passengers pay a fee unless they want their luggage to come last off the plane.Let's think this through for a bit. At first, only a couple of people pay the fee. No biggee, and not much impact. Then someone, whose baggage came off last, notices the "priority tag" or whatever they use to identify the "don't take me off the plane last" tag. So s/he now ponies up for the fee from now on. Repeat for a few iterations. Now, nearly everybody has paid the fee, and they all come off just as before.
EXCEPT when some poor customer has paid the fee, AND his stuff comes off AFTER someone who did NOT. Guaranteed Upset Passenger.
The real kicker: what happens when someone:
Yep, sure sounds like <sarcasm>great customer service</sarcasm> to me. With increasingly ubiquitous video cameras, all it takes is a couple of postings to YouTube, a few blog posts, and then the REAL FUN begins!
They can charge 1st class tickets more by guaranteeing their luggage gets off first thus making their travel more efficient, and they offer the same service to Economy passengers but the price is not included int eh ticket price so you have to pay more..
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2006/04/25/business/20060425_SEATS_GRAPHIC.html
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Way back when, flying was a rare novelty, so it was inherently fun.
Today pretty much everything about it is a hassle, so it's only worth flying when constrained by time, or when other driving just isn't practical. I've done long-haul Greyhound long ago, and to be honest that wasn't so hot, either. I've never traveled by train, just taken tourist-type train rides.
As an aside, the annoyance starts when you book a flight. My wife has checked it out, and for at least one airline, the magic interval is three-weeks-and-a-day. Booking closer than that, the rates are outrageous. That is, except for a flight with an empty seat that is so close in time that you can't even get to the airport. One thing we've realized is that it appears that they accept new bookings right up to flight time, even for full flights. For the prices they charge for a near-in booking, they can bump someone, give them a free flight at the longer-term booking rates, and still make more money on that seat.
Then there's TSA, and the overloaded ATC delays, and the overloaded airports, etc, etc, etc.
Flying is just a way to get from point A to point B when other means won't work out.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Really, there are two issues with this. First, it seems that more people are using carry on anyway. In my experience flying, more carry on reduces the already dreadful flying experience. I see this as a competitive disincentive.
Second, I wonder if the cost of implementing such a plan, which would require marking and sorting bags, would be less than the additional revenue. This is the same question I have for the ISP. Will the costs of all the additional equipment really justify the additional fees such equipment would impose on the end user. Wouldn't it be better, like the airliines, to impose a fixed limit on throughput, and allow users to pay for more?
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Am I the only one who does not miss the meals? They were just a hassle an generally I just skipped them. Geez, have a snack before the flight. I can see it on some trans-Pacific flight, but it was pointless for domestic trips. Jet Blue replaced the meals with satellite TV. and I've been a fan ever since.
Well, people who complain about how awful it is to fly should look into the mirror (and maybe Jimmy Carter for deregulating the airline industry) for the cause. When was the last time you shopped for an airline ticket where the cost was not the main driver in your selection? Even if it is $5 less, most people will select the $5 cheaper carrier.
If you want things to change, support the airlines that are providing higher quality service for a bit more money. For example:
1)Are you supporting the new Economy Plus section offered by some airlines? Usually these are only $100-200 more than a normal economy ticket.
2)Are you trying the new low-cost business-class only airlines? Some are about $1600 round trip to Europe.
You want things to get better stop complaining and put your money where your mouth is and don't support the cheap crappy carriers (I am looking at you Southwest).
While we're at it, how about dropping terrorist neutrality as well? I'd gladly pay a fee to keep Uncle Sam out of my bodily cavities.
Haiku for you!
"If you need a clue as to how creative ISP execs might get in the absence of network neutrality, look no further than United Airlines CEO Glenn Tilton, who is wowing Wall Street with his willingness to examine new ways to wring money out of the carrier, including making economy passengers pay a fee unless they want their luggage to come last off the plane."
Best. Non sequitur. Ever.
We've become such an instant gratification society that people bitch if they have to wait a few minutes longer for their luggage? IT'S JUST LUGGAGE! If you are so concerned about getting to your destination on time that you have to get your luggage quickly, how about, oh, I don't know, booking an earlier flight?
http://twitter.com/OLDTELEGRAM
...will mean that you sedate all passengers before boarding, stuff them into individual containers and load the plane up. No seats needed so passenger density should be able to increase by at least 100-150%. In coach you dont get an individual container of course, you just get a canvas bag.
Now the world has gone to bed, Darkness won't engulf my head, I can see by infra-red, How I hate the night.
Tilton's core of nitwits can't get baggage to arrive on time anyway. If you get a United Priority Tag, it's sure to come off last, if you're lucky to have it come on time at all.
What a compleat and total jerk. First he strips out the pensions in bankruptcy, cuts the United FF program to shreds, stops serving food, has one of the worst flight delay records in the industry, now he wants $$ for your baggage arrival. This is extortion, pure and simple.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Ever since the increase in "security" after 9/11, I have done everything I can to avoid flying unless it's absolutely necessary. I've gotten pretty good at getting through the security gauntlet without an orifice probe -- playing dumb and cheerful seems to be the ticket -- but even then, most planes make the city bus feel like a luxury limo by comparison and airports seem to have been designed by a retired platform game designer. Add to that the bizarre security rituals, like the TSAA guard in New Jersey who banged my shoes against the floor before declaring, "Nope, no bomb in there," and if I can skip traveling, I will, and if I can't skip it, I'll drive. About the only reason I'll board a plane voluntarily now is to vacation abroad, and even then, I have to ask myself if it's worth the extra-special unlubricated scrutiny you get when returning from abroad.
So now my bags are going to be delayed a few minutes? Who gives a shit? That's like being told that in addition to being worked over for an hour by mafia goons, someone will now call you a sissy at the end of your beating.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
Tilton is trying to copy Crandals innovative work during the early days of deregulations. Prior to deregs, United(which was a spin off from boeing) was the leader since they had so many friends in a number of low places. After Carter deregulated the airlines (just before he deregulated the oil companies), Bob Crandel of American Airlines became very aggressive AND innovative. In particular, he moved the major airlines to hub and spoke system. That lowered the over prices to travelers. Another thing he did was spend loads of money on AI programming to figure out who to charge on a route. What they created was the variable pricing that we now see.
OTH, Tilton is now moving the system to a charge for everything. In the end, southwests and even virgin air are going to kill off airlines like them. This will be bad for Denver, as right now, United is one of the larger airlines here, but evolution changes all.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I'm seeing a lot of anger and discussion as to why are airlines *cheapening* the flight and do all of these things like what United does with Economy Plus or Continental and Northwest charging for exit row. So let me bring you into the world of US domestic air travel.
Domestic air travel is one of the five most price elastic products avaliable for purchase today. This means when you go on to Orbitz we all charge practically the same thing. Internal tests in the airlines have proven that a $5 difference in airfare will dry up your demand. So, no people for the most part say they want everything but time again have proven through actions that they will only buy for the most part on price. International flights are a different story.
Price, Schedule, Frequency in that order is how people buy airfare. The idea now is to shrink the price as much as possible and try to recoup through the difference with ancillary revenue streams. This is why you see such things as purchase of Snacks on Board, charging for pillows, SkyBus and RyanAir charging for everything. People complain about buying a $5 meal on the plane but you can create a better product and for most part people realize they will pay $10 in airport for the same caliber of meal.
Since the industry is so price sensitive it is trying to debundle the product. It costs money to serve meals and when you make as little as $200 on a flight from JFK to LAX TOTAL, you have to find other ways. So what do we do, we try to offer things that people are willing to purchase. Economy Plus 5 additional inches of leg room on most United flights...it makes a big difference when you go cross-country or across the ocean. Purchase an Admirals Club ticket from AA for $35 for the day so you have a place to shower and change because you can't check into your hotel in London until after 4:00 PM but you got there at 10:00 AM.
Programs like giving luggage priority to the customer that flys 1 or 2 times a year is to give customers what they want (a lower flight price), but also for those folks that want something extra a place where they can purchase it.
Sometimes your money vanishes into a CEO's private yacht.
United is a prime example of an unethical company that fails to meet any of it's three primary responsibilities: customer service, job security, and investor return. It does not matter that this "plan" to screw customers is not a fact yet, because United customer service is already the pits. How could it be otherwise when the employees are demoralized by games like this:
One of the "concessions" was the elimination of employee pension plans. Bankruptcy, of course, screwed investors. It's little wonder that United is often mentioned when I hear bad travel stories. Please do not talk to me about regulation to protect such scumbags. The kinds of things United is accused of are crimes that should be punished.
The other half of TANSTAAFL is a free market. Without that, there's no such thing as a fairly priced sandwich lunch. Glenn Tilton is lucky there's air on the other side of most doors.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
You don't get what you pay for, but you're required to pay anyway. As in:
1) You pay for homeowners' insurance only to find that your particular disaster isn't going to be covered. Just ask the people on the Gulf Coast.
2) You pay for a utility, like phone or cable, only to find that when you've got a problem or outage, you're without your service--not for hours, but for days or possibly even weeks. (Ever try to get a rebate from, say, your phone company when they take four days to send out a "technician" to spend twenty minutes fixing your trouble?)
3) You pay ever-increasing costs for your health insurance only to find that a catastrophic illness or accident leaves you in debt for years.
4) You pay for what is termed "unlimited" Internet services only to find that your ISP is cutting you back because they have a different idea of what constitutes "unlimited."
5) You earn your money, but you are required to pay the bank ever-increasing "fees" so that they can use it until you need it. In some cases, you even have to pay to speak with a human being (as opposed to an automated system) to receive an answer to your question.
We're all part of a vast pool of money to be tapped into at will, and the game is to return the bare minimum of value for what we're all willing (or able) to pay. Why should the airlines be any different? An interesting article appeared on CNN a couple of days ago. It seems the "working poor" are having increasing trouble making that paycheck stretch from one payday to the next--and the term "working poor" is now encroaching more and more into the "middle class." The Big Box Marts are starting to notice an impact to their bottom lines.
The airlines will find that fewer and fewer people can afford to fly, so they'll focus on ways to wring more out of the people who can still afford to fly. It's not surprising.
"Here's what's happening. You're starting to drive like your Dad..." - Red Green
Why would anyone care? When I am on the plane, I take my time, and when I get off the plane, I see no reason to rush to the door - the plane isn't going to leave if I don't get up in time. So I cruise along, take my time. So whilst all the people who got off early have been sitting around like idiots waiting for their bags, I've been taking my time - stress free.
Back in the 60's, EVERYBODY got a good meal. Of course, what is not mentioned is that it was the time of regs and the prices were about the same. That is tickets cost 200-300. Today, not a lot, but back then, well, that was a LOT of money.
I had it good WRT that. My father was an airline pilot so we got to fly free. And yes, even in coach the service and meals were good. Free Booze. I tend to think that Midwest airline had the right idea (leather seats; 4 across on a super 80; good service), but I believe that they are gone now.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I love to fly general aviation and military familiarization flights. But I loathe flying commercial these days.
Why?
Security theater: having to take off my shoes and other gear, can't have anything metal in carry-on luggage, severely limited amounts of liquids (I get thirsty easily and it can take a while for the stews to pass around refreshments). I don't feel any safer.
Delays: plane's late getting there to pick you up, takes longer than it should to get luggage and people in place, then you sit on the tarmac for a while because of weather delays at O'Hare or some other far-off airport. But you have to get to the airport early to deal with security theater.
The time we were stuck in the airplane at O'Hare, still attached to the terminal, with a dead APU and no start truck for like 45 minutes. In high heat. Air conditioning needs the APU to run. Bastards didn't even pass out extra drinks.
Airport food is crap and overpriced. Especially at O'Hare.
Other pax who think it's their $DEITY-given right to shove too much crap into the overhead bins and bang on the stew-call button all night on a red-eye flight.
So piddly little stuff like "baggage neutrality" doesn't even enter in to how much I loathe commercial air travel.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
Isn't this going to actually make more work for the airlines, more delays because they have to wait for all the baggage so they can do LIFO loading?
And what's going to happen if you have a multi-leg flight with different carriers? Is the other carrier going to inconvenience itself to help this guy's money-making scheme?
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
In other words, they'll specifically hold your bags back unless you pay for them to be handed over at the same time as those who have been paid for.
So why not skip the "which order" diversion. Set a time limit - two hours perhaps - and have you pay, oh, one dollar per ten minutes you want your bags earlier than that. You want your bags within the first ten minutes after landing you pay 12 dollars. You only got a fiver then the staff will be happy to let your bags stand in a corner for the hour or so you didn't pay.
Could extend this with a same-company service, where, if you're connecting to another flight by the same company you only need to pay that dollar charge, whereas if you're connecting to a competitor the price is five dollars per ten minutes.
And really, why stop there? You want to go to the bathroom in-flight? Make sure you bring change on board. Or perhaps a "seat guarantee" would be nice - the ticket you bought is a lottery one, and depending on how much you pay you get better or worse odds on actually getting on your flight in the concourse seat raffle. A premium charge - say three times list - will guarantee an actual seat in the flight you've paid for.
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
.. something may happen to your luggage.
http://www.rense.com/general79/wdx1.htm
I generally try to be the last person on each flight I take. I take a lot of flights. I generally check a bag.
Trust me, it does not make your luggage come out first. Not even an appreciable fraction of the time.
I can't see this making any difference. You spend so may hours standing in queues being stared at by men with guns[#] looking like they're just itching to use them that all the baggage has been put out looooong before you get to the baggage hall.
But perhaps it makes a difference to USA internal flights? Do you not bother with all those security delays on internal flights then?
[#] Not something Brits are used to, of course, so just seeing a gun is a threat.
Try a Russian airliner... of course you probably feel very good after your body (attached to your legs) arrive at the same destination, but meanwhile the food is very ok.
Support Eachother, Copy Dutch Property!
Just have ppl at airports change identities with other ppl at other airports! No need for planes at all!
FRA: STFU GTFO
Too bad about the seats. I did not mind paying the extra 40 for it, but I do understand it. Where the airlines would be smart to remove a column is on the wide bodies. There, you lose fewer seats in terms of percentage, but will gain a large number of converts. That is more important for hub/spoke systems. Sadly, they prefer to pack the large ones.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
There's a perpetual argument on slashdot that goes like this:
Lin/Win: Macs are more expensive.
Mac: No they are not if you configure them Identically
Lin/Win: okay here's a Dell thats comparable and it costs $100 less
Mac: You are overlooking the value of a system that works. It's only cheaper if your time has no value.
Lin/Win: Well I get to choose with my PC, Mac forces me to pay the mac tax whether I want to or not.
So apparently there's a large number of people, larger than the max zealots, for which saving a dime at the expense of time and frustration is really a consideration. United is catering to that large segment. It's what they want.
What I don't like about this is that it is going to turn into what economists refer to as "driving the good apples out". This is when one is in a price comparison situation where one does does not have enough information ahead of time to discern on the basis of quality. It refers to why there are more bad tasting apples than good tasting ones in the super market, and it's classic application was to the Used Car industry.
So when you go to book a ticket on SABRE then you will see united has the cheap flight. It forces the other players to follow unless they can somehow differentiate their service levels. This is why luxury brands never offer a cheap version. They have to maintain a public image that when you buy the luxury brand that you never ever get a bad apple.
This happens in the cell phone market where players like qwest and verizon advertise the cost without all the fees they lard on it and others advertise the final price (e.g. any pay as you go plan). I'm looking a sunday newspaper and I see qwest is advertising that my internet connection can be just $26/mo (going rate in my rural market is $49). Then the fine print says "with Bundle". And when you add in the bundle you realized they just moved the cost over to another service (3 way calling a value at $10/mo!).
So there problem with parcelling and bundling services is it can distort the market for quality when the buyer has a hard time or lacks the time to find out if it's a bad apple before they buy.
The famed economic analysis's conclusion was not that good apples wind up costing more but that the distortion is so severe that good apples leave the market and are not available.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Yes, I'm sure this will increase the long-term profitability of Mr. Tilton's business enterprise. Imagine the happiness one must feel settling down into an industrial bank of chairs at the gate, knowing that for just a few dollars more per ticket, one has secured the incalculable benefit of a different colored baggage tag. Much like a different-colored credit card or checks with pictures on them, the knowledge that one is, in actual fact, a big shot must be splendid. Why, I'm nearly overcome with joy knowing that for just a few dollars more on my taxes, I've summoned into existence an entire army of highly trained professionals who are ensuring that rather than the coffee I've brewed at home, I am enjoying, while seated in those industrial chairs, only the finest brew, made from beans blessed by a bored TSA agent who languidly waved through a man he's met every day of his job, pushing the same cart of restaurant supplies to the same place. As a happy side-effect, I'm protected from the dangers of e. coli in my juice and cryptosporidium in my water.
This sense of serenity is surely not measurable by such pedestrian metrics as dollars and hours.
High-speed Road Trip (18.000KPH)
I end up doing it a couple times a year, and only because I live on the east coast, and my fiancee is doing her doctorate on the west coast, and it's not an option to drive or take the train when you only have a week or two of vacation time.
Other than that, there's no way I'll get on a plane, unless I have no other option. The cattle market in front of security is the least safe place in an airport. Whenever someone does get around to trying out another suicide bombing in the US, it's going to be in the middle of one of those huge masses of people waiting around to go through security. In our utter stupidity, we've provided a terrorist's dream target, that "security" can't do shit about. I'm sure several of the times I've been pulled to the side and "given special attention" are because I'm probably obviously worried about standing around in the middle of a nice big bullseye.
On any given flight, maybe 5% of the people will pay for this, causing a slowdown for everyone else that one would need sensitive instruments to measure. They're milking the blowhards.
I am the one true god. However, as an atheist, I don't believe in myself. I guess I have a self-esteem problem.
I hate this too
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
This is yet another reason why we need a realistic rail option. Listen up Amtrak, we need cheaper tickets or substantially better service to give us a realistic option for non-air travel. Personally, I'd be more than willing to sacrifice a day or two getting there if the travel was comfortable, the food was good, and there was decent entertainment beyond an in-flight movie. Oh, and please start ALLOWING PETS AGAIN!!! They used to be allowed, so I know you can do it...
The US traveling public who get to keep an artifically low price to travel. Everyone expects to fly $125 one-way, anytime, anyprice.
United is always the most expensive airline and prices are generally high, not low. If ticket prices were taking care of the things they should, this would not be bad but they are not.
The $4 billion new "information system" that will be used to extort money for bagage service that other airlines simply provide, is an example of waste. Other airlines implemented reasonable ticketing when forced by deregulation more than a decade ago. I doubt that it cost them billions of dollars or that real improvements to United's system would either. The difference in costs is a red flag for kickbacks and other corruption that's not serving anyone's interest.
you have it wrong its investor return, customer service, job security.
You can put it in any order you like. I don't see a benefit for any of those involved. Investors have poor returns when money is wasted, employees are demoralized and customers face poor service. The point of all of this is that a CEO who proposes to screw customers for the benefit of employees, to screw employees for the benefit of investors, and so on and so forth is screwing everyone. When you trust someone who thinks it's OK to screw people, you will find yourself screwed.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Or,
It is like offering customers a chance to save money by not even using checked luggage (which I pay for even though I don't use it).
How is tiers of service price gouging? And why can't I sacrifice decent service for cheaper prices? I do that for everything else.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
I started flying in 1960 when the whole US industry was regulated -- for its own good. There was no hub-and-spoke system. The whole nation was well-covered -- a ticket to Podunk, Iowa didn't cost $1000 simply because it was a low-traffic route. A ticket from A to B cost the same on ANY carrier. Because they couldn't compete on price, they had to compete on service, and the service was damn good. Decent food, bigger seats than now, toys for the kids, free decks of cards, pens, and notepaper for the adults. A single thunderstorm in Chicago didn't screw up the whole nation. Flight attendants weren't horribly overworked on jam-packed flights.
Yeah, it cost a lot more in real dollars. Yeah, not so many people flew in those days (they took the train or the bus, duh). But look what would happen if we implemented it now. The higher prices would drive people back to ground transportation, reducing their carbon footprint. The airlines would have to clean up their acts and start competing on service again. With fewer flights the skies would be safer.
Deregulation brought down prices for anybody flying between major hubs, but drove them through the roof for anything out of the way, and shot the quality of service to hell. Typical short-sighted profit-motive thinking.
I piss off bigots.
I'd far rather take a train than a plane, too. The food's a lot better, the people are a lot nicer and you get a lot more room to stretch and move around.
The airlines complain that they're having a hard time turning a profit. Perhaps they should try actually improving their customer service for a change.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Huh? I call shenangens.
I ride Acela (amtrak's NE corridor service) ALL the time between Boston-NYC-DC. I have NEVER seen bench seating in 8 years of travel. I have never seen bench style seating in any Amtrak car ever...
The cars on Acela are really nice, clean, have plenty of room, and even real electric sockets for laptops.
Cell phone use is not bad. I rarely get someone rude. AND if i don't like cell phone noise there are QUIET CARS available where cell phone use is not allowed.
Amtrak does have frequent problems with staying on schedule
So, with that said, I don't believe you travel Acela .
0. Dress properly. Leave the metal and piercings at home; you'll just make your security check worse.
1. Travel light. If you're crossing the ocean for two weeks, plan to use a laundry.
2. Avoid connections. If at all possible, drive to a hub airport.
3. Planeside check on your outward trip. This ensures the baggage monkeys don't lose your luggage. If you failed to follow tip #1, and you must check your bag, be sure you carry with you the basics for an overnight stay.
4. Check your heavy baggage on the return trip. Barcode scanners track everything in a database in Atlanta. Airlines don't actually lose your luggage, they just misroute it. On the way home that's a benefit: You don't have to carry your bags to your car! They'll deliver to your home, eventually.
5. Eat a good breakfast. You're not getting fed on the plane unless you're crossing an ocean.
6. Bring your own entertainment -- a book, videogame, etc. Unless you're crossing the ocean on one of those new 767s with the cool Linux personal entertainment system, you're going to be on your own. On most flights, even if they're showing a movie, you won't be able to see it.
7. Noise-suppression headphones really do work.
8. Book early, book online, and select an exit-row seat. Legroom and laptop space will be adequate for a change.
Airlines treat their customers like dirt. There's no secret about it. (unless you're a frequent business traveler, in which case your predicament is probably still lousy, but you at least the airlines are nice, and I digress....)
Since it's been the increasing trend for airlines to Nickel-and-dime their customers, charging for every little item possible, it's probably time for them to reevaluate their business model.
A bunch of low-cost carriers across Europe have sprung up, offering bare-bones service at insanely low prices. They get around this by flying to airports outside of metropolitan areas (which can be a boon or a curse depending upon where you need to go!) and more or less pass their costs directly on to their customers. If you want to check-in at the counter, you'll get a small surcharge -- after all, keeping the counter staffed does cost money. Likewise, you're charged a decently reasonable rate for each and every piece of baggage you check. After all, heavy baggage means more fuel, which means increased costs. (On the same note, I find the typical American process of charging obscene fees for being a few pounds over to be absurd. I've had to shuffle items between bags to meet my quots, and avoid paying $75.)
Although they're subject to taxes and fees like everyone else, the pricing of base fares is more often than not clear and upfront, without many complicated "fare rules" attached -- one-way tickets are often no more expensive than round-trips, and there are no strange discount rules involving connections or layovers. There is no "system" to be worked, and it's usually obvious why your ticket costs as much as it does. One of my biggest gripes with traditional airlines is that I have absolutely no idea why my ticket costs twice as much on as wednesday as it does on a tuesday, but only on odd numbered months....
This you-pay-for-what-you-get approach has been extremely popular, and low-cost airlines such as RyanAir and EasyJet are among the most profitable airlines in the industry. Granted, they do have their share of shady business practices, although these days I'm beginning to expect that everywhere.
Likewise, I've noticed that airlines that force to pay for meals often serve better food, because they're being forced to compete with (*gasp*) people packing their own sandwiches.
Although this business model doesn't particularly benefit vacationers and long-distance business travelers very well, it's absolutely fantastic for "commuter flights", or an impromptu visit home to see my family for the weekend.
Back in the US, I used AirTran all the time to travel between New York (LaGuardia) and Newport News, VA. Both are smaller airports, are relatively easy to get to, and usually aren't too crowded (LaGuardia's a bit of an exception here, although they're probably the "least of the three evils" in the NY Metro area). Although they're a bit more "posh" than the low-cost European carriers, I get the distinct impression that they "get it" in terms of where the industry needs to go -- low-cost regional flights without too many frills. Fares are easy to comprehend, and it's not particularly uncommon to get a one-way ticket for around $60 -- considerably less than Amtrak, and only takes you 30-45 minutes on the ground and an hour in the air, as opposed to 15-30 minutes in a train station followed by 8 hours on an excruciatingly slow train that offers even fewer frills than the flight.
All that said, there are a few rules airlines do need to follow. Customers need to be treated like human beings, there should always be someone to talk to in the event of a problem, and certain in-flight amenities should be provided such as complimentary drinks (in light of the liquids ban, and the fact that it's not an expensive service to provide), and blankets/pillows on long-distance overnight flights.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
It was probably a question mandated by the TSA. You know, no pork or vegetarian = terrorist red flag.
Currently paying First, Business, and Mileage Plus Elite members get these orange tags on thier bags so that their luggage is first to come down the belt at baggage claim.
Too bad this rarely happens. I have been United premier Executive for 5 years running and I'd say this actually works 20% of the time (and that is being generous).
A better idea would be to simply reduce the weight and or amount of baggage folks can check and make up the difference in fuel savings.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
That is, they tend to be more careful and lose luggage MUCH less than other airlines. I can even get First Class for a very reasonable price. The flights are on time . The planes are nice, Pilots very safe and the flight is for the most par enjoyable.
Changing flights is not even an issue (short of change fees)
Never had an issue with them.
INSERT INTO comment VALUE('Doh!') WHERE user='you';
I pack my underwear and toiletries, and don't bring a single stitch of clothing, other than what's on my back. I'll stop at the shop and pick up a few USED dress shirts, a few casual shirts, pants, sometimes a suit. Everything's organized, in style and well marked. It takes me far less time to pick up my clothes than it would to pack at home, check my luggage, pick up my luggage, etc.
I leave a credit card imprint for the deposit on the clothes. When I return them, I usually get my full deposit back, less the cleaning and usage fee, which is far less than a typical laundry and dry cleaning bill.
OK, I made this service up, but doesn't it sound like it would appeal to some class of traveler?
You save nothing. If you don't check any bags then you pay exactly the same amount you're paying now. You can pay more to get your bags sooner. Neither paying more for a service you are already getting nor paying the same and not getting the service results in cheaper prices.
Perhaps you have internalized Orwell's dictum: less is more.
We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
-- Anais Nin
It's called "carry on" learn it, live it, love it.
Seriously--lest some idiot thinks I'm trolling: After seeing so many of my more well traveled friends dealing with lost luggage--not to mention having to put on locks rigged so that baggage people can open and paw through your stuff--I take carry on luggage and haven't had a problem stowing it. You don't need half the things you think you do on trips (and restricted to small amount of carry on liquids now saves space.) And if you forgot or need something, unless you're going to 'outer Mongolia', you can usually purchase it at your destination. I haven't lost a bag yet! And I can just grab my bag and head out of the airport instead of hanging out in baggage claim.
If you've never been modded as "flamebait" or "troll," you've never tried to argue a minority viewpoint here!
I thought they were going to talk about 'United Supermarket' and how they were going to force the consumers to use plastic, without the choice of paper or plastic.
Airlines tend to have to poor profitability because they offer an undifferentiated product with many substitutes (driving, WebEx, etc) and compete on price. Previously "innovations" like yield management and overbooking were supposed increase profitability as well. What happens though is that all the competitors adopt the "innovation", the base fare falls and the profitability is unchanged.
Charging for priority luggage delivery does not overcome the basic problem that for most consumers one flight is as good as other and legacy carriers like United are locked into higher cost structures than upstarts like Southwest, Jet Blue or Virgin America.
Traveling by train pretty much rocks... in the more civilized parts of the world that actually HAVE a decent rail system... Japan and Europe especially, have the Shinkansen and Eurostar which are IMHO the best way to travel... EVER.
That half-assed, run and planned by half-wits, sorry excuse for rail "service" that we call Amtrack, OTOH... woe betide the poor fool who's gotten used to Shinkansen or TGV or ICE and tried to rely on amtrack. The whole bloody lot of them should really just be fed into a wood chipper. Then we could just hire the Japanese or Germans to come build a new rail system the right way.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
Something I learned to always get my stuff first.
Last one to get a boarding pass is the first one to get their bags if they are going strait to their destination.
If you have an odd number of plane changes, give them your bags early.
If you have an even number, give your bags as late as possible.
DOS Airlines
Everybody pushes the airplane until it glides, then they jump on and let the plane coast until it hits the ground again, then they push again jump on again, and so on.
Windows Air
The terminal is pretty and colorful, with friendly stewards, easy baggage check and boarding, and a smooth take-off. After about 10 minutes in the air, the plane explodes with no warning whatsoever.
Windows NT Air
Just like Windows Air, but costs more, uses much bigger planes, and takes out all the other aircraft within a 40-mile radius when it explodes.
Mac Airlines
All the stewards, stewardesses, captains, baggage handlers, and ticket agents look the same, act the same, and talk the same. Every time you ask questions about details, you are told you don't need to know, don't want to know, and would you please return to your seat and watch the movie.
Unix Airlines
Each passenger brings a piece of the airplane and a box of tools to the airport. They gather on the tarmac, arguing constantly about what kind of plane they want to build and how to put it together. Eventually, they build several different aircraft, but give them all the same name. Some passengers actually reach their destinations. All passengers believe they got there.
Linux Airlines
Disgruntled employees of all the other OS airlines decide to start their own airline. They build the planes, ticket counters, and pave the runways themselves. They charge a small fee to cover the cost of printing the ticket, but you can also download and print the ticket yourself. When you board the plane, you are given a seat, four bolts, a wrench and a copy of the seat-HOWTO.html. Once settled, the fully adjustable seat is very comfortable, the plane leaves and arrives on time without a single problem, the in-flight meal is wonderful. You try to tell customers of the other airlines about the great trip, but all they can say is, "You had to do what with the seat?"
[Shamelessly stolen from the intertubes.]
Now they all do it. We just accept it as part of the price of going to see a film at the flicks.
The bags could come out hanging from an overhead conveyor that would automatically jerk your bag away from you the first few times you reach for it. Customers willing to pay for premium service would only have to jump a few times. They'd also get to watch economy class passengers jump a dozen times for theirs. As an added bonus, they could sell tickets to the general public to watch the spectacle. Family fun for all!!!
"Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
The downside of this is that everyone will do what you do, which is cram as much stuff as possible into the overhead bins in order to keep from checking bags. This slows down the security lines and getting on and off the plane.
It does sound like a protection racket, tho. Maybe next will be:
"Would you like your bag to be handled extra-carefully? For a small fee we can make sure your bag doesn't get dropped or run over by a baggage cart, or maybe show up with the handles wrenched off. Heh-heh."
Due to their likelihood of being lost and never be seen again, i stopped checking in luggage years ago, long before i stopped flying commercial flights totally.
What is next, charge extra for a 'guarantee' that YOU reach the proper destination too?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
And that's what it comes down to: competent management and a market that values the product. It isn't rocket science to have good train service, even in a country as large as the U.S. Using technology from 70 years ago one should be able to board a train in New York, sleep in a comfortable sleeper car, and wake up in Chicago 12 hours later (750 miles/12 hours = average speed of 62.5 miles per hour). With current conventional technology the land speed record is slightly more than 350 miles an hour. In twelve hours under a best case scenario that train could travel 4200 miles. It's less than 2500 miles from NY to LA.
Linking the business plans of airline executives to net neutrality is a bit of a stretch.
Deleted
(Rail travel...) It's slow as well as being inconvenient
:-)
Depends on the country.... in Europe the express trains are looking more and more attractive as the barriers to flying increase. Slow? Eurostar (train) London - Paris means getting to check in 20 minutes before the train leaves in central London (Waterloo and soon to be St. Pancras) and nearly 200 mph across to Gard de Nord. Plane means travelling to the outer reaches of the London (45 mins or so) being there an hour before the plane leaves, and flying to Charles De Gaulle 20km outside central Paris and having to find my way in from there. By the time you add in these extra local travel times and waiting at the airport you're looking at very similar travel times. Inconvenient? last time I travelled on plane I had to take my laptop out of my bag and switch it on, take my shoes off, my belt off, not take any liquids through... compared to Eurostar where none of this is required, just the 'old fashioned' putting luggage through the xray machine and walking onto the train with a decent quality hot drink and firing up the laptop.
Across continental Europe the trains travel at higher speeds than cars and deliver you to the centre of the city: many of the stations were built in the 19th century and are really central.
I think trains could be the way forwards: certainly they are a damn sight better than planes (even in the UK where they try their best to mess you around).
USA I think is a different matter, folks there ran down their train system methodically over decades and it will take a long time to turn it round. And as for the poster from the Bahamas, yup, I guess trains will never really be much of a long distance option there
TANSTAAFL might work very well for aged Science Fiction writers, but, alas, not so much in the real world.
Take an example: Say you and your family saved up to go to have an amazing vacation, including staying at a Hilton near a beach. But, when you got there, you found out that you had to pay $20/night extra to have the beds and towels changed, $30/night for air conditioning, $25/night for hot water, $5/night for each key, and $50/night for use of the elevator to go to the 22nd floor. Would you go back?
Airlines and hotels are both businesses that respond greatly to the economy. When times are good, people take planes and stay in hotels -- both for vacations and business. When times are rough, people consider vacationing nearby, or driving, and try to stay with friends and family. Businesses try phone conferences. For example, I work for one of the top 15 companies in the Fortune 500, and for six months there has been a complete freeze on all travel.
So, what are you supposed to do if you are in this kind of business? It is rather obvious: during the good times you squirrel away money for a rainy day fund, and you make your customers as happy as you can. When the bad times hit, you want them to think, "Well, we're low on cash, but we had so much fun two years ago using that airline/hotel/theme park, why don't we splurge. After all, life's short!" During the bad times, you use your rainy day fund, and keep trying to make your customers happy as possible, even with your reduced funds. There are lots of things that make customers happy that don't cost a lot, after all.
US airlines, though, have been run very poorly. Just after 9/11, the airlines were first in line to get government funding. How and why? Because it turns out that most of them were already either asking for government bailouts, or were planning to. Their stated reason was that fuel costs had risen. But, fuel costs are normal business expenses!
One of the real reasons was that during the previous economic high, the airlines had not been either saving money, or making customers happy. People had been forced to zig-zag across the country, having little or no food, unpleasant boarding procedures, and horrible service. So, when the times became bad, not only did the airlines not have any money saved away, but their customers actively hated them.
That's how the real world works in such businesses. TANSTAFL just causes those companies to go bankrupt.
What United Airlines is proposing is just a tiered service. It's as simple as pay more for more service and pay less for less service. They collect more money from people willing to pay more for premium services, and it avoids broad price increases that make air travel unaffordable to more people. It's not any different than first class seating. It's not any different than a broadband customer paying more to get 2 or 4 times the bandwidth. Either way it is the customer of the provider that decides what level of service they are willing to pay for.
The airline equivalent of the internet's net neutrality issue would be the airlines charging your family, friends, and business associates that you are flying to go visit, so that the airline will fly you there faster if they pay up, or delay your flight, or maybe even cancel it, if they do not.
If Verizon charged Google money so that the communications between a Verizon customer and Google would go faster, or even be allowed to go through at all, then that would be the equivalent of United Airlines charging your parents money to let you fly back home for a visit.
Now if Google wanted to pay Verizon the going rates to install leased circuits into every Verizon central office, so that Google would have better connectivity to Verizon customers, I see nothing wrong with that. If Verizon wanted to encourage that by putting together a single service package where they would install such circuits bundled to reach every central office without having to set up service for each individually, that's probably fine, too. This would be paying for some actual service (leased circuits with private routing). It would actually be taking traffic load off the internet exchange points, so it could be a good thing for all, as well.
Net neutrality should be to maintain a fair and equal balance on all legal traffic going through the internet between providers ... between the customers of those providers who pay their providers for a service to reach the cloud (via the various exchange points and through any peering agreements).
If I happen to get service from one of the (many) providers Google connects to, and that point of service happens to be in the same place a major Google data center connects to, sure, I'm going to get better reachability to the Google services running at that data center. That doesn't violate net neutrality.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Well at least two European airlines are doing just that.
Rynair is charging per checked piece of luggage.
(Squw)EasyJet will be (is now?) charging for more than once piece of luggage PER group booking. 4 x bookings = 1 piece of checked luggage. 4 separate bookings = 4 pieces of luggage.
Easyjet used to say boarding in order of check-in. No longer. You can pay a small sum to get boarded first.
Of course, charging extra to use a credit card to pay is outrageous. Given that it must be 99% of bookings are done over the internet or via a telephone operator, with credit card charge.
Lets brainstorm a little here:
- Charge for priority luggage: Check.
- Charge for priority boarding: Check.
- Charge for food and drinks: Check.
- Charge for use of the toilet: Soon.
- Charge for an emergency parachute/lifevest: Would if they could.
- Fresh oxygen: We'll see if that one flies.
- Charge for checking in early or on time: Check.
- Charge for NOT turning up at all: Check.
- Charge for charging charge: Check.
There is only one way this is going.
Q:I was listening to a CD in Grip and it sounded horrible! What's up? A:Perhaps you are listening to country music
They could charge more so less people take advantage of the offer. Then they make more money per person, but less people will buy. Since the total money you make here is the price multiplied by number of people, you can increase one and lower the other by the same proportion and end up with the same value in the end. If you ever notice that the number of people buying your service is too high for it to be effective, increase the price to lower demand so that you can deal with it effectively. I'm sure airline companies know how to do this.
That's good to know. Basically I pick up where your travels end (or vice versa). I ride Amtrak's regular train service (no Acela for us folks to the south) from Washington, DC to Raleigh, NC and back every few weeks. I don't know what it's like in the Northeast, but the route between DC and Raleigh is on tracks owned by CSX that Amtrak pays to use. Consequently they've got one more variable that can work against them. Five or six years ago when I started taking this route, delays were rampant and often hit 2 hours. Almost always it was due to CSX working on the tracks. I'm more the relaxed type though, so that never bothered me much. Besides, being on a train where you can get up any time you want and wander around, go to the cafe car, etc., makes a huge difference. A 2 hour delay on a plane would kill me. Anyway...
Within the past few months, something almost magical seems to have been happening -- the delays have started becoming fewer and shorter. One time this summer I even got to Raleigh 5 minutes early! It seems to be turning out that all those years of delays are finally starting to pay off -- CSX really does seem to have managed to upgrade the quality of their rails on that segment, and as a result, life is getting better for Amtrak and their passengers. Here's hoping this trend is for real and that it continues.
I know there are a lot of Slashdot readers in Northern Virginia, so here's my advice for anyone who needs to visit the Raleigh/Durham/RTP area at some point. If you want to give Amtrak a try, don't bother going into DC (Union Station). Instead, head to the King Street metro station on the Yellow & Blue Metro lines. The Amtrak station is on the other side of the tracks (just cross over via the underpass). Pay for the Business Class upgrade. It's typically an extra $21 and is worth ever dollar. It gets you a larger seat, more leg room, free coffee and soft drinks, and the most important thing of all -- a 120V AC power outlet. It's supposed to be about 5h 30m from the King Street station to Raleigh if everything is running on time. 6h +/- 15m is more common, but as I say, it seems to be getting better. You'll need to research your options at the NC end of things though. I have friends and family in the area, so someone always picks me up, so the best methods to reach a car rental place from the Raleigh (or Cary or Durham) Amtrak station isn't something I've looked into.
I think the best part of taking the train is the interesting people I meet. Just in the past few months I've found myself sitting next to a hot biology grad student from NC State, a psychic (that was an interesting ride!), and a judge from NYC. I don't know why -- maybe it's because all of us are taking a slower form of transit -- but I continue to find that the people I meet on the train are a lot more mellow and just generally interesting than the type of people I meet when I have to fly. It's just all-around less stressful, you know?
Whoever designed level 61 in Frozen Bubble is a sadistic bastard.
Why would I 'reasonably expect' my luggage to be first off the plane?
Most people problems with many things commercial seem to spring from them holding two mutally incompatible beliefs; a) that they should pay as little as possible, and b) that they should be treated and pampered as if they owned the place.
Of course, charging extra to use a credit card to pay is outrageous
It sure is, and it's a breach of every merchant agreement I know of. Talk to your card issuer and let them know what's going on.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
I buy mostly on schedule. I don't know what you mean by frequency since that's an aspect of schedule. I would guess your analysis is mostly valid for tourists. When business flyers chose though I'd think schedule is more important.
I'm a different buyer though. My son visits hometown periodically and is a minor. I have to bite for the "unaccompanied" addon and have to be careful that termination allows for pickup and by the declared parties.
A big problem with schedule buying is connections. 30 minutes between flights in St Louis? Come on! You're almost guaranteed to miss the connection. 3 hours in Chicago? Enough time to get in trouble but too long to be comfortable and too short to do anything interesting really.
Of course we sort by price. Not would be insane. It's loaded though. There's no significant difference between buying a flight tomorrow and 2 weeks from now. Either the seat is available or it is not. Ditto with a Thursday compared to a Saturday. The ticket should actually be cheaper on a Saturday as it's more full and cost per passenger is less.
There's no sense to the purchase. The purchase sites are geared to cost. In frustration we purchase on price. The industry is creating a self-fulfilling prophesy. Domestic air travel is one of the five most price elastic products avaliable for purchase today. It's also complicated and hard, much like buying a car. So many variables. Making it more discreet and harder is not a good idea.
I do happen to be a loyal United customer, but f--- them if they want to charge me a premium to get my baggage off the plane first! Southwest just opened a route to my regular LA/SFO trip, so I'd rather fly with them. The round-trip cost of this ticket, bought far enough in advance, is the same from one airline to the next.
Like the others who've posted here, I also remember when flying on an airplane was fun, something to look forward to, and now it's a tedious hassle, about as fun as a trip to the dentist for a root canal.
I agree with parent. Sure, charge for service. Sure, nickel and dime us if that's the way you want to run your airline. But... I have to wonder if there isn't a market for a new kind of Airline with a motto something like this: "We charge you a bit more because we don't screw you". We serve hot meals on flights over one hour. (Just to be safe, we do so on any flight that's scheduled for 50 minutes or longer). If our planes are delayed by more than 30 minutes, please accept this 50% off coupon as our apology. We'll let you know in advance if you're on some mysterious "no-fly" list because you have the same name as "Bob Smith", noted terrorist, and have to show up at the airport 2 hours early. "Flying can suck. We don't. We'll never be the cheapest way to get around, but we aim to be the best." But maybe I'm dreaming. Maybe we really do want every airline to be the lowest common denominator.
Now I think when i was like gold ultimate handjob elite years ago
Uh, am I the only person who wants to know what the hell the phrase, "When I was like gold ultimate handjob elite" means, or am I just old and behind on the vernacular?
What I would like to see is airlines charge by weight. Weight goes directly to their costs to operate. Imagine having everyone, including their luggage, getting on a giant scale before separating from their luggage and boarding.
A large man with little luggage might end up paying the same as a small woman with a lot of luggage.
I weigh 200 lbs. so I may actually end up paying more, but I'm OK with that.
It might encourage people in the US to start losing weight "on a large scale." (haha)
Interestingly, credit card companies disallow a surcharge for use of a credit card, but allow a "discount for cash." Apparently, they fail to understand the simple truth that surcharge(X) == discount(not(X)).
I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
I can remember fondly the meal I had on one flight.
Uzbekistan Airways from Tashkent to London. (continuing the flight from Delhi)
Excellent Beef Curry and the inflight movie was "Gone with the Wind" (1997)
That was a flight to remember.
Then like Madagascan Airways, Tana to Paris last November. I was the ONLY person in Business Class. Cool.
Shame about the Paris Metro workers who were on Strike. Missed my Eurostar connection to London.
Then on the other hand, Varig, Rio to JFK overnight. Even the water tasted like sh1t.
Life is full of ups and downs.
It seems that traveling in the USA is just a big downer these days. With the Immigration hassles is it a wonder why visitor numbers are down even with the USD= 2GBP? and certain Midwest cops who think that Passports are not valid ID (post 9/11) sigh
Why is it that businesses with poor customer service now seek ways to turn it into a revenue center instead of a cost center?
What sort of greedy bastard do you have to be to look at your "service" and think: "Everybody hates our service... I know! Let's make the service even worse, then charge people if they want us to make even the slightest effort to serve them!"
For an extra $15, our baggage handlers won't rummage through your bags and steal your stuff. Take advantage of our $5 rider covering pervert protection. For $20, we won't let them use your baggage to smuggle drugs into the country.
I think that this is also sometimes called the Wal-Mart effect: cheap junk driving midrange goods out of the market.
That last one was true way back when this was first on the internet (1994?). I've seen OS/2, Windows 3.1, and other versions as well. Now the seat comes pre-installed, and shapeshifts to fit your body. :)
http://pinopsida.com
I have to bite for the "unaccompanied" addon and have to be careful that termination allows for pickup and by the declared parties.
Anybody here remember when it was CHEAPER for kids to fly than adults? Now it is about 25% more expensive for a kid to fly than an adult, at least unaccompanied. An accompanied child, of course, costs the same as an adult.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Yeah, I've not figured that one out yet. Not that I necessarily disagree with charging a differential for card/non-card purchases (3% or so is a fair bit of money for a merchant to have to eat), but it's silly to make one rule and then totally turn it around with another rule.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
It gives me another reason to be a very loyal Jetblue flyer. I love the fact that Jetblue treats all of their customers like people not cattle. Right along with 1st class, there is no 1st class ... everyone gets larger seats. Also, outside of people with disabilities or children, everyone goes through the same (fast) line (through TSA).
I can't believe I see that many people loyal to a carrier that treats its customers based on the size of their wallet. I wonder how many of those people fly 1st class everytime.
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I just had a meal on Continental Friday night. I was shocked. It was the first non-international flight I have had a meal on in 20 years, and I fly a lot. It was only about a 2 hour and 10 minute flight, and it started at 6:30 PM, which made it more shocking. I am used to flying from 10 Am and getting to the layover location at 1:40 or so for the next flight which is at 2:00, and no meal is given on either flight, and because they are running behind my 1 hour layover is reduced to 15 minutes.
Now, international is something else. You're theirs for 6 hours or more, and they don't want you getting pissy, so they constantly shove food in you.
I have traveled domestically in other countries besides the U.S. and it seems that everywhere else in the world, any flight longer than an hour and a half is going to have food. TACA airlines gave me a very nice chicken dish. Now, the plane itself was quite obviously falling apart, but hey, they give you a good last meal.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Some people would claim that busting a union was unethical and unfair.
Others would point out that if the union was 'bustable' then it was asking for unreasonable things. Otherwise the cost of busting the union (including bad publicity) would exceed the savings.
It's all in the weasel words.
In any case you are just flat wrong. In the long term to best serve the stockholders the company must act in an ethical manner.
Fairness is much more subjective. I would say companies should always ethically seek advantage that competitors will call unfair (like Southwest locking in fuel prices with long term deals). Companies should never promote anybody that thinks life is fair. The boardroom is no place for children.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Right?
shareholder value (v) - 1. To reduce the value of a product or service to increase profit. The box was shareholder valued to increase profit 0.2% by reducing its size by 10%.
One garment bag and a laptop case and I'm good for weeks on the road. I'll use hotel cleaning services and buy t-shirts etc if needed. I just don't understand people that travel heavy.
That said I never block the isles getting on or off.
The people your thinking of are the same folks that got early boarding as they are so decrepit. You'd think they would wait for last getting off, but they usually insist on being off in their turn, slowing the rest of the plane to their pace.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I always seem to meet more interesting people when taking public transit up here in the Twin Cities. If I'm waiting for a bus in a shady area (haha... shady areas in the Twin Cities), usually you meet someone interesting. Waiting for the light rail or on the train, always meet someone.
It's great that public transit is getting better up here. Light rail will be connecting Minneapolis and St Paul soon enough, commuter rail will be connecting St Cloud to all this as well. Prices are reasonable--usually $2 to get you anywhere (subtract 50 cents for off peak, add 50 cents if you take an express bus, and only 50 cents if you're only traveling within the downtown zone).
...they'll let you take a hot shower as well.
8 hrs in airports, planes and cramped into a sardine can of a seat or 3 days of slowly chugging along while reclining on a couch watching the world roll by?
Just get one of those rooms with your own shower. You get 3 square meals a day included with the ticket price. Bring the laptop with cellular internet access and plenty of movies/video games for when you're in the dead zones. Throw in a book or two and an intimate friend and it's the only way to travel. Really it's like being able to loaf around for a few days while having someone else cook and make your bed.
I've only been long distances on amtrak with a suite a few times but If I could afford it it's the only way I'd travel. Admittedly it's hard to choke up $2,000+ for a moving hotel room when Continental can provide the same end for $150.
Naughty me, replying to myself. But I just remembered that while eating that first meal on a U.S. domestic flight in 20 years about the newsreels I used to see, back in the '70s about the complexities of running the airport food service kitchens. I wonder how the catering people are doing now that the only food served is pretty much only international.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
You know how many compartment there is in a plane ? 3 (eco, business, first), 5 maybe in some airline (eco + etc...) ? Well do know how many booking class there is ? 26+. All letter of the alphabet used. For example first could be FOA (first foully booked, ID discount, upgraded, etc...) business could be CDIRZ (from full fare to every kind of stuff, including ID's). Eco could be anything like MHSPQWT etc... All those represent different type of fares.
Now combine with how the booking is done (full fare, ID, upgrade/downgrade/FFs, week end fare, internet fare, bid pricing, block space, and I pass many other stuff). The worst case scenario I saw was booking twice the same place at 5 minutes itnerval and getting different fares because somebody canx a res on the same compartment/fare, and the fare optimisation progs had kicked in because the plane was underbooked... The end result is quite a mess, where roughly only a computer today can really look thru. And then there are the various airport tax. Ever tryed to re-issue a ticket with 10 - 16 taxes because the pax goes onto 3 different countries/airport ?
As for ryan air, last time I looked at their price model, they had really cheapo place, but if you look at a plane on a whole, the average price of the place comes roughly the same as a more traditional airlines, and more expansive when you count extra fees, *AND* the way from the ryan-air special hub which is lost in the country side (example: ryan air frankfurt airport is in reality 120 km I think away from frankfurt. FRA on the other hand is about 20/30 km, they got also smacked for false advertising on price).
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
I travel First Class most of the time on United and they put a red tag on my bag so that it will come out first when I reach my destination. Most of the time, my bags are mixed with economy and I don't get any special treatment upon arrival.
As if the airline industry wasn't suffering enough...
To increase business you must provide a service or product that people are willing to pay for. Many people are finding it just as easy (or cheap) to drive to their destinations, or they find that United (among others) simply charge too much for travel...
So, this is just one more nail in the coffin. It won't be long until they go out of business or are bought by Southwest or some other company that still understands "value add" or "customer service"...
--E--
Amtrak is run by politicians. No line can ever be shut down no matter how unprofitable and unused.
Passenger rail has it's niche. Generally where population densities are high (like Europe, Japan and Bostiyorkadephia here in the USA).
Even with airline hassle you'd be nuts to travel from LA to New York by rail unless the trip was the point. Kind of like a cruise ship.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Point zero is out. I love Spinal Tap. Joking, with a little luck I'm gonna die with the stock # of holes in me.
Airlines do lose luggage. Usually because their tag gets lost. Always put identifying information inside.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I call shenanigans.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Have you ever actually *ridden* on a train in Japan? Outside of the major cities, it's pretty rural -- far more rural than anything but the most desolate parts of the American west. And ironically enough, it's actually *easier* to get higher speeds in rural areas, because there are fewer people to annoy, intersections to block, and so on.
Population density has nothing to do with the lack of efficient rail transit in the United States. We simply don't invest in it, because we're too busy subsidizing the air, car and trucking industries.
Let's try not to let fact interfere with our speculation here, OK?
Better just to carry-on if possible.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
The problem is the moves airlines make don't make sense if they wish to stay in buisness.
The problem is that airlines keep going into Reorg (Chpt 11) bankruptcy and not Liquidation (Chpt 7) bankruptcy.
Many of our airline problems would sort themselves out if Reorg bankruptcy was not an option for airlines. With Reorg the airlines have managed/forced to carry decades of deadwood.
If the airlines had to liquidate in bankruptcy, they would sell their assets and get a clean slate (well airline #1 would be dead, but airline #2 would have a clean slate). Sure every airline out there would fail eventually, but what would come back (because something would come back, air travel isn't going away) would be much stronger. Plus the threat of a bankruptcy death penalty would actually force some tough decisions on those involved.
I'd go without the meal period. Unlike most people I have no problem going 8hrs+ without a meal. I do it most everyday because I am so busy with work. In business my margins are also slim, I want to keep them as wide as possible. If that means I ride with the chickens in the back then that's fine. I for one don't need to feel like donald trump while travelling and I can wait the extra few minutes for my luggage to come out just as I do now. Maybe if I exceed a mil for my gross my time will be worth it, but for now I'm always the guy who voluntarily becomes bumped off the flight to wait the extra day and to recieve the $X.XX voucher.
FlyingPizzas.com, for the tasteful hermit
"Maybe we really do want every airline to be the lowest common denominator."
Not really, but it's the end result of going to Travelocity or Expedia, searching for a flight, and then getting the cheapest ticket possible.
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
LOL.
Let me guess, you've never been west of the Mississippi on the ground outside LA or SF?
Saying that population density has nothing to do with the economics of train travel reveals you to be a first class moron who doesn't think for himself before spouting a line. Think about it then post again. Hint: Population density affects passenger numbers. Rail infrastructure is largely a fixed cost per mile. Different fixed costs depending on speed of course, also capital and maintenance costs, all largely based on rail-mile. It's even true for Amtrak though that market is less clear when they lease rail access from freight systems.
The only confounding factor is right of way cost, but then again rights of way were typically secured early (often for freight) or not at all.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I'd pay an extra $20-50 per trip (all passengers) for a truck to pick up my bags at my home/hotel before I leave for the airport, deliver my bags to my destination (hotel/home), and send me confirmation before I leave for the airport. All on a separate baggage freight flight.
That flight could have as many stops, at any time, to optimize the routing. It wouldn't need to pressurize the cabin or serve food. It wouldn't need any crew except to fly the plane. It wouldn't attract terrorists, and everything could be X-rayed or otherwise detected, without any "realtime" hassles.
Then my passenger-only flight could have almost twice as much space for paying passengers. I'd know in advance if my bags were lost, so I could initiate whatever recovery is possible without the crisis of being on the road, and send a replacement bag so there is no crisis at all. My airport time would be a complete walkthru, with at most a single 5 pound carryone that must pass a metal detector and X-ray at walking speed or be confiscated and sent on a later flight.
And those baggage flights could sell any excess space on routes for higher priced package delivery without passengers.
The efficiencies gained would be worth $BILLIONS. The hassles saved would make more people fly, and reduce safety risks.
I wish airlines weren't so completely subsidized and insulated from risks of losses. Then someone with actual power to do this right might consider this plan.
--
make install -not war
Oh, I remember when that happened... and it still does. Just not in most American airliners. If you're ever in India, take a flight with Jet Airways, Air Sahara or Kingfisher. The level of service is astonishing. The 45 minute flight on Jet from Bombay to Ahmedabad comes with a full meal. No matter what time of night or day they fly. And when I say full meal, it could definitely be compared to the quality of food one would get at an Indian restaurant in Europe or the States: only semi-authentic, but still quite tasty. The memory of it makes me drool even now.
Same with me on Lufthansa.
United is just being stupid - and the managers are showing how clueless they are about their organization.
Powerless too - they simply cannot make this happen.
If they were offering a discount for not using checked luggage, I might buy your argument, and it's possible they will do so, but I highly doubt it. It could also be argued that by only raising prices for people who want to get their luggage in a timely manner, they are actually giving a discount to the other customers by not increasing their prices to adjust for inflation, but if any business I used tried to pull that, I'd drop them like a baby.
I find this argument a little hard to believe. Do you really do this? Service is about the only thing I'll pay extra for. I shop at Kroger, and pay a little more, because the employees are nicer, and the checkout is generally faster. On the airlines I feel like that's a rather extreme argument. The only service they have is poor, and you're willing to pay less to get an even lower level of service? Like, "Fly anywhere for $100, but your luggage will be lost, you'll have to wait all night in the airport to actually get on a plane, after that you'll have to wait on the runway for 7 hours, and the flight attendants all have gas."
I'm lucky enough to have been able to stop giving my business to the airlines years ago, so either way...
Almost all airlines charge a little more for better comfort/service. First/business/premier class does exactly that. Unfortunately, most of us can't afford it...
The problem isn't the people who don't check bags. Its the people who don't follow the rules.
Under this new proposal, the agents will most certainly be even more restrictive about what is and is not allowed as carry-on, since each checked bag means more money. Under current rules, there's really no incentive for the airline to make you check a bag instead of carrying it.
If anything I'd expect this to improve the situation; anyone trying to exploit the system by carrying on too much stuff will be denied back at the ticket counter (where the money happens), before they even have a chance to slow down the security checks.
blog
You also need to take into consideration the location of the airports you are flying in and out of. If you happen to live somewhere that has only a smaller airport (hence not a hub for anyone), you will end up with at least 1 connection. Connection flights almost never feed you anything better than a 1 ounce bag of pretzels. And if your destination is then less than 1,000 miles from the hub, you probably won't get food on that leg, either.
I moved from a metropolitan area of over 2 million residents to an area with less than 500,000. I don't even remember the last time I saw a 747 land at the local "international" airport.
On a tangent, does anyone know how an airport qualifies as "international"? Our local "international" airport hasn't had a direct flight to or from anywhere outside the continental US in a very long time - even Canada. I can drive to several large Canadian cities from our city in less than half the time it takes to fly there, due to connections and routing nonsense.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Put a bright-orange ID tag on your bag that looks as similar to the special-handling tags. Chances are that nobody will look twice at it and see that it's not the real deal.
Just "gittin-r-done," day after day.
Last time I took a short flight (London to Dublin) I was delighted that I didn't get a meal. Airline meals are awful, usually unneccesary for a flight shorter than 3 hours, and add a fixed per-passenger cost to a flight which will reduce their ability to lower their minimum ticket prices.
There's probably some FAA regulations, but basically, it has to have customs services.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
I'd definitely drop an extra $50 or so for that kind of deal.
It's a bad experience all around. It's spreading. And getting worse.
I quit flying after 9/11, because I got really tired of dealing with the security area hassles; the puffed up corporate security reps hanging around the ticket counter; having to get there 2-3 hours early, but their profiling would trigger on anything earlier than 2 hours; missing connectors and small computer accessories after the security checks; small items missing from luggage upon arrival and one latch always being unlatched on every bag; they undo the beaded ties on athletic bags and throw them away.
F$ck 'em. After swearing off, saying "Well, one more time" and getting pi$$ed on, I've been driving since 2003.
I'm also cutting cable TV. There's nothing but 200 channels of the most pitiful pathos, propoganda, and relentless advertising there, now.
I don't buy CDs anymore -- nothing being sold but overpriced crap. Same with movies. When Hollywood does an epic flick equal in scale to The Ten Commandents and featuring a Burning Bush, I'll think about buying a ticket. As long as admission doesn't require and a$$-smear and several token child sacrifices.
Even football is starting to look as scripted as All-Star Wrestling. (I hope someone's going to hell for that one.)
Whenever I go from DC to Atlanta, I try to do it by overnight train (with a room). I get dinner and breakfast on
the train, lots of space, and I get into northside Atlanta about 8:30 AM. There is no better way to get there
early in the morning.
I have long thought that Amtrak should have "businessmen's hotels" for overnight trips
between Atlanta and DC, New York and Chicago, etc., with lounges, WiFi access, etc.
Either that, or go to the TGV type train and do it in 2 hours.
That's what I suspected. But then when you have an "international" airport that never has any international arrivals, they drop their customs services. Why then does the airport still carry the "international" title?
I see that wikipedia says that the international designations for airports come from the "International Civil Aviation Organization". So maybe someone forgot to implement a mechanism to revoke it? The airport I am talking about hasn't even seen a plane carrying more than 169 passengers land here on purpose in years...
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
"while some PHB wrestles a laptop bag and an extra-large "carry-on" from the overhead bin."
No, it's the older people and women who (in general) do this. And then expect everyone around them to help them.
Now, you want to be a great guy and help, but you realize that "Ellen Executive" is simply being a jerk and expecting everyone around them to avoid waiting at the baggage pick-up. So my help is limited to older people without regard to gender. If 30 year old "Suzy Supervisor" can't lift the bags, then she should have checked it.
They might not have full-time on-site customs, but if someone files an international flight plan to or from that airport there's probably a mechanism for customs to show up. Whereas you try to file an international flight plan to or from a non-international airport, the FAA will refuse to let you fly.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
Never knew how they allocated exit-row seats, but now Northwest charges for them, either in terms of a cash surcharge or in terms flyer points or one of those "Elite" or "Gold" memberships.
One thing about exit-row seats is that each of the big exits are "manned" by a flight attendant -- that is what they are there for and anything else they do like get you a pillow or not get you anything to eat in this day and age is incidental. The exit row seats are unique in that they are "manned" by whatever passenger is seated there -- in other words, your safety depends on the conscientiousness of a fellow passenger rather than on an airline employee who at least has had some kind of training.
Mind you, this exit row thing is a kind of loophole to the safety rules that allows airlines to place revenue seats next to some exits instead of rear-facing jump seat with a flight attendant sitting there. The gummint was OK with this until a few years back that they started to "have issues" with it and issued those rules that the airline had to ask if you, as a customer, thought you were physically fit enough to lift a 40 pound exit door, and the airlines began this lameoid thing of "asking" customers if they wanted to be moved from the exit row -- apparently there are all of these 90-lb 90-year-old grannies who can lift 40 pounds from an awkward angle because no one ever volunteers to leave such a seat.
AvWeek had a discussion about passengers and exit rows, and the time it was suggested to qualify certain frequent flyers by having them demonstrate that they could operate and lift the plug doors and giving those passengers preferrential exit row seating. The current system, at least on Northwest, is that the exit row is a perk that you can pay for, never mind if you are the kind of jerk who never pays any attention to the safety demonstration or has never looked at a seat card.
Part of the thing is that 1) airlines have a "don't scare the passengers" approach to airline safety, and 2) most passengers believe that they are French toast in any kind of accident and that the safety info is pointless, and many if not most passengers make a demonstration out of pointedly not paying any attention to the safety drills.
My own personal perspective is twofold. One is that I lived in Chicago when the 727 jet was new, and pilots transitioning from prop planes lacking the high power-off sink rate of the 727 with all of the droops and flaps down were crumping 727's with alarming regularity. The Chicago Tribune told of one accident in Chicago where after one of these crumped landings, only two people got out, people seated next to exits with the presence of mind to operate them, and the rest of the people died from smoke and not from any other injuries. Secondly, I hold a private pilot certificate and have been indoctrinated in the ways of procedures and checklists. Unlike many other conveyances, airline passengers play an active role in the safe conduct of their flights. Can't be bothered to pay attention to the safety announcements and look at the seat card because you have flown the fourth leg of a trip and have flown hundreds of times? Gee, I guess the pilots can't be bothered with checklists because they have flown thousands of times and must know all of the settings by rote not, don't they?
So you got fat slobs with frequent-flier privileges who could care less about paying attention to the fact that they are in an exit row and have a role to play in an emergency, and you have the rest of us steerage passengers on the Titanic told we are last in line at the life boats.
I fly to South Africa from Europe once a year. I almost always fly Emirates. It's really out of the way and adds on much longer hours, but Emriates:
Has absolutely amazing staff. Friendly, professional, speak the languages of source and destination country, take their time with difficult passengers.
Has comfortable, cheap economy seats, with video entertainments systems in each seat back - that work.
Provides free drinks and fantastic meals. The best I've ever had on any airline.
The major hub, Dubai, is a large, roomy, comfortable airport with every and any convenience. It has friendly, professional staff. The queues are managable.
They do not treat their customers like criminals (USA take note), while providing excellent security.
They are the cheapest airline to fly the route.
They are not alone in this quality service. Singapore Airlines is just as good, if not better, and other new Arabian Gulf Carriers like Air Qatar and Al Etihad are also competing at this level.
United Airlines is going to lose any business they have on the routes these other airlines fly if they treat their passengers badly and charge them for things that have been normal part of service... on buses!
I like how you assumed it was a "her".
Instead of trying to revitalize the ongoing maintenance costs of an aging fleet, find more valuable / lucrative routes to run, or create value through virtual private jet ownership collectives, he's chasing perhaps 1% of the cost of a ticket while being a PITFA to the customer.
No wonder the airlines are in trouble. I distinctly remember being on a United flight when they charged 5 dollars for food. I happened to be starving, and THEY happened to run out of food by the time they got to me. So now in an attempt to get 5 more dollars out of a 300 dollar ticket, they've really, really annoyed a customer. If I'm going to starve and have an awful time, I'd only pay 200 dollars for a ticket.
Meanwhile, British Airways had a lovely meal, lots of room, and plenty of space to sleep. I'd gladly pay 350 for the same flight on them.
It seems like the carriers are by and large going for razor thin benefits at the cost of pissing off more customers. Do what you do well, and you should be profitable. If you're not, stop stepping on your income stream to chase ghost tenths of a percent.
The ______ Agenda
This whole idea is based on the customer actually receiving their bags! I don't know about the rest of you but my last two flights included my baggage being lost and then the next flight they tore the crap out of the bag and are sending me a new one to replace it! So what happens to lost luggage if you pay even more to get it first? airlines suck.
So what happens if you make up your own tags that look like the airline ones?
I took Amtrak once a week between Roseville, California and Oakland, California for about a year.
This is about 100 miles.
It took longer than the shortest drive time in a car. I think the longest it was late was about 45 minutes. But when you drive, your time is lost. You can't read a newspaper or a book.
You can't break out a laptop and do some work. You had better not be enjoying an alcoholic beverage while you are driving your car.
I used some of the time on the train to study for certification exams.
I have been working in Southern California lately and took Amtrak between Oceanside and Burbank.
The only thing bad about that train was that it was standing room only. I got a seat, but some people didn't.
For that trip, taking the train was more pleasant than driving across the greater Los Angeles area.
I have lived in California since 1973 and I am amazed at how much passenger rail has grown here
in the land of the car. Metrolink in all over greater Los Angeles.
The thing I like about the train versus flying is that you don't have to show up 2 hours early at the airport. You don't have to go through security and worry about what you have packed
in your bags. You can show up at the last minute and buy a ticket before walking on board.
Oh just try buying a ticket and walking on a train that goes between major cities in Europe.
You need reservations for that kind of trip on a European train.
Once, I was flying United to Sacramento with a stop in San Francisco. The flight into San Francisco was late and I could not get a seat on any of the remaining flights that day. United said they could get me on a flight the next morning.
I responded that I could get home in 3 hours by train and got a refund for the final portion of
my trip. With the money, I rode the subway to Oakland, took the Amtrak to Sacramento,
then took a cab to the Sacramento airport where my car was parked.
To me, occasional bad experiences on the train compare favorably to "road rage" incidents driving
on the highway.
YMMV.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -- Albert Einstein
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Coincidentally, I flew United from San Francisco to Boston just today. My bag always seems to come off the plane last anyway - this is no change for me.
And you know what? The time difference between the first bag and the last bag is about a whopping 8 to 10 minutes. Anyone who's so stressed out about getting their bags that 8 to 10 minutes makes a difference really needs to re-examine their priorities...
Don't underestimate the power of The Source
Story summary misses the point. Then commentary by submitter mentions the point but still manages to miss it!
Listen, you can have your bags come out first one of two ways:
1) pay a crapload more money for first class
2) travel a crapload of miles per year to earn status which will get you upgrades to first and/or priority baggage claim even when stuck in coach
This is the case not only on United, but also many other airlines. I am platinum on Continental and if I were dumb enough to check my bags, they would come out first on the claim belt.
United's great offense is suggesting a third option, which is paying a few bucks to get this privilege on a particular flight, when you normally would not have it. United already does similar things with "premium" coach seats (e.g. exit row) and their "economy plus" product.
Typical slashdot spin to prompt a lot of bitching in ensuing discussion. Nothing to see here.
That's because of the spin of the summary. In fact, the way it should have been said was: you can pay for priority baggage claim. The spin of the summary makes it sounds like United employees will put your bag at the end unless you pay them $$$$$... and they may also hurt your family.
/. spin.
Don't buy into the
I skimmed the posts, but didn't find anything which described very well why this isn't equivalent to the net neutrality argument.
The reason it's not equivalent, is because ISPs already do this with Internet access and nobody minds. With Internet access, you pay more if you want faster access. No matter what you pay, you can still access any site you want. In this case, you can still get your baggage delivered as well as anybody else, and at the same speed as any other sites you go to, but you pay extra for better speed overall. And honestly, I don't care if you pay more to get your luggage first and less to get it last, as long as my luggage gets there.
There's two major possibilities for how a lack of net neutrality can be abused: either the ISPs cut businesses and customers off from using parts of the Internet entirely, or they basically start charging with a la carte prices, so how much you pay for the speed of your connection depends on which parts of the Internet you use.
Keeping that in mind, here's two similes that would work:
Dropping net neutrality is like the airport refusing to deliver baggage to poor countries if you're flying coach.
-or-
Dropping net neutrality is like the airport charging extra to get your baggage on time after they open your baggage and find you're got frilly underwear.
The details are trivial and useless; The reasons, as always, purely human ones.
Oh, sure, they put those tags on the bags, but it makes no difference as to when the bags come out. I flew just two days ago on Northwest Airlines with 1st Class priority tags, and one of my bags was LITERALLY the last bag out. The LAST one. The other was a few bags before that.
One thing you can do for fun is when you're waiting for the baggage claim belt to start up, and it finally does, note how many of the first bags to come out are priority tagged. It won't be any greater than if the bags came out in random order, because, well, they're coming out in random order.
paintball
It really doesn't much matter. It's as Homer Simpson says: "Marge, no one flies commercial except losers and terrorists!".
Problem is, normal-speed trains are already very expensive, and not terribly convenient in some ways.
I have traveled from Washington, DC, to New York and also to Boston. The Boston trip was overnight, and it was rather fun to take the overnight sleeper. You end up in downtown Boston in the morning. The NY trips also drop you off at a convenient place in Manhatten. Problems are:
1. You don't get reserved seats, leading to a cattle rush at the New York end in particular. A few minutes before departure, they announce what gate the train is at (presumably to give everyone a running chance). Bah. Unless you get an Accela train, which is slightly faster and significantly more expensive, in which case you still don't get reserved seats but you do get a waiting room with seats while you await the stampede.
2. They are pretty expensive. I'd say the trains are always more expensive than coach class flights, based on my random datapoints. You are essentially paying for the convenience of city-center-to-city-center transport and no baggage check-in, etc, which does make the trip faster. If you actually are going to the city center.
All that being said, I'm not sure that paying an extra buck or two to move my bags to the head of the queue is all that offensive of an idea. For those of us who travel extensively for work (hence my status), I think it'd be worth it to us so we could get going that much faster out of the airport.
Oh well, off to bed, since I'm on a 0615 departure out of ORD...lovely.
So, after reading this, I pick up the latest copy of the Economist. There's a full page ad for NetJets and the Boeing Business Jet (really a 737 variant), with a picture of Bill Gates and Warren Buffett. sitting in one of the things.
Then there's a two page ad for Emirates Suite Service. Emirates is offering "private suites" on an Airbus 340. New York to Dubai for only $10,558.87, one way. Meals included.
Air travel is better than ever!
Charging extra for CC purchases (and even more for Amex/Diners) is pretty common practice in Australia. I wish the banks would do something about it but since a CC is not legal tender I guess the merchant can charge whatever extra they want to cover their charges from the banks. Well, thats how I understand it only because thats how it works :/ IANAL.
Who cares if my luggage comes out last? In fact, wouldn't it be kind of nice to not have to look at every piece of baggae that comes down the tube from the very start, to have the first few minutes to go to the bathroom or check out how to get to the rental counter?
In reality of course, such an action would be terrible for United because (a) it would make even more econmy passengers try to cram everything and the kitchen sink into a carryon, and (b) it would be horrible to actually sort luggage to deliver it in the way they claim they want to. It would cost them a lot of time and personell just do to that sorting, I would think more than they would get per 1st class or economy passenger for the service.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Every time I try and transit through the US, my bags get "lost" in transit. They show up 24 hours later with all the zippers in my toilet bag and gadget bags undone. I'd be happy to pay a buck or two just to have my bags show up on the same flight I do and maybe have things searched a bit more gently...
My $0.05 (AUD - we don't have pennies any more)
My father evaluated strips in the Pacific rim for most of his FAA career, so I'll put in my two cents. They (used to?) have some FAA inspections to do, including landing by instruments. The size didn't matter, because most of the place my dad looked into were tiny islands like Guam, Bali, and the Marshall Islands.
When I lived on Maui, there were TWO gates, and that was international. 747s landed all the time, though.
Put identity in the browser.
Recently, I had the pleasure to fly from the US (PDX) to Europe on Lufthansa. Except for being in the middle 4 seats on an A340, it was a great flight. The free Warsteiner beer was good enough, too.
Contrast to United flight back from Amsterdam to Chicago... Maybe it was the particular flight, but it kind of sucked. At least back in cattle class, the flight attendants were going through the motions. Either they hated each other, had been working for too long, or were all having PMS. Not like I fly much, but there was not a lot of warm and fuzzies being emitted from the attendants. Economy Plus though was worth it for me (5' 10"). Odd how a couple of more inches of leg room make an 8 hr flight slightly more bearable.
Too bad, really.
Oh, and I suppose I should mention there was no fucking way I was going to pay $5.00 for a cheap-ass domestic beer.
If United is supposed to be one of the flagship US international carriers, then the Star Alliance has joined with the wrong member.
And, well, I should add that on a $1000 round-trip ticket, no fucking way am I paying for a box lunch, either.
United is heading in the wrong direction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Entity_(South_Park)
Lufhtansa is Waaayyyy ahead of other US carriers in Service.
Flying into and out of USA i always prefer Lufthansa:
Once they lost my baggage when i landed at MAA airport.
They immediately apologized paid me $100 over the counter and traced the baggage to being stranded in Boston itself.
Their staff delivered it to me 3 days days at my home later with an official letter of apology.
Second time, i had the misfortune of my I-94(exit INS doc) not being removed by Lufthansa employee when he checked my passport. (probably because i was the first to check-in).
I noticed it in MAA and emailed Lufthansa.
I was surprised to find a letter waiting for me at my home with an apology signed by Country Head and also officially stating for INR purposes i had flown out from BOS to MAA on that specific date.
(now i wonder if INS would let me back in States on the strength of this letter...)
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
I have flown quite a bit. About half of the times, there was some problem with my baggage. Either I had to wait a lot for baggage, or it was searched and left in a sloppy state, or it was simply lost.
Can they do an even worse job if I don't pay them? Only if they incinerate our baggage, or something like that. This sounds like Mafia extortion to me.
Seems these days it's unreasonable to expect it to arrive at all.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Highly recommend it. It exists in Europe and Japan, and it's great. You travel from city center to city center, so there's no additional time/cost of taking a taxi or other conveyance way out into the farm fields. Second, security is not insane. Third, you get to see the country you're travelling through. Fourth, et al, you can get up and walk around, go to the dining car, bar, observation car, etc.
/. article about reformulating jet fuel) and U.S. airports are already at capacity with delays growing dramatically.
But the additional reasons are that jet travel is adding greatly to global warming (see other
So building out a high-speed regional rail system with dedicated track a la the TGV in France or Shinkansen in Japan would take a lot of load off the air system. You would still need to fly coast-to-coast, but New York to Chicago by rail would give you a comparable travel time when you factor in the additional time for check-in and baggage claim and travel to/from the airport.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
Been Frequent Flier Elite for the past 4 years with Continental, my luggage gets tagged "Priority" and still it arrives last (not necessarily the airline fault). So if I fly United (already Known for their crappy service, like most US airlines anyway, Southwest being the exception) does my luggage get there the next day?
European airlines are healthy even with Easyjet, Ryanair and a tons of others charging just 1 euro each way and US airlines are squeezing the dime out of passengers and they never seem to have enough, always complaining they're losing millions. Then again, this is the country where everything is overcharged way too much and, thank you Mr. Reagan, Bush Sr. Bush Money, I mean... Junior, corporations will soon have life or death say about citizens' lives.
An airliner will use that $200 in a tiny amount of time (a minute, a few miutes?) on fuel alone, meaning that if the plane stays in a holding pattern for 5 minutes or has to wait for half an hour to take off, the plane is already deeply into the red. Given that both circumstances, waiting on the tarmac with engines running for a take off slot or flying in a circle in a holding pattern are very common occurrences, it is hard to see how airlines can ever make anything on any flight. My guess is that, as is typical, airlines make a big noise about how little they make based on an absolute worst case.
Pure and simple marketing that is proven effective. See also the $XX.99 phenomenon, shiny packaging, etc. It was at one point common practice for a store to charge you more to use a credit card in order to cover their increased costs. Card companies figured out they get a lot more business this way.
SIG: HUP
Carry-on.
I can't remember the last time I've checked luggage. I fly several times a year between work and visiting the family (I live 1,000 miles from 'home'). Been doing this for eight years now. Since moving away to college, and then to work, I have not checked luggage. I go places for 1-3 weeks at a time, with a laptop and text books, no problem. Pack light, pack carefully, keep your luggage on your person.
But this situation is more like a lottery than an increased level of service. Buying a first class ticket will guarantee you a seat in first class and (on United) early boarding. Buying a luggage upgrade will put you in the pile with all the other people that bought a luggage upgrade. What's our recourse if our bags get lost, delayed, or aren't taken off the cart before the regular bags? Can I demand a refund? I wish they'd apply this logic to all their services, just to see how stupid it is. Give us $5 before you get on, and you get a chance to get a box mean. Give us $1, and you may get headphones that work. Swipe your credit card, and the SkyPhone may work. Think about the ads! "I won the right to fly where I wanted to!"
I'm also surprised that no one has mentioned the change in United's overweight baggage policy from a couple years ago. It used to be 80 pounds, like the rest of the industry. Now it's 50. I can pack a large rolling bag that pushes that new limit.
Planning to be moderated ± 1: Bad Pun.
I frequently visit a city about 300 miles away on business every few weeks. As an added bonus, the trip is from the US to Canada and back. Air Canada charges a fortune (especially on short notice). The last time I flew, the 300 mile trip took 9 hours, which is why it was the last time I flew. I can cover that mileage by car in about 6 hours. Under ideal conditions, the air trip is somewhat faster, but conditions are seldom ideal anymore. Customs at the airport can be a tedious exercise. Car rental is just one more thing that takes time and can be done wrong. Crossing the border by car is immensely faster, which is unusual when you consider each driver is bringing much more across than an air traveller -- yet the customs people move things right along.
Even on purely domestic flights, the story remains the same. I was flying back from London, arriving at JFK, with a commuter flight to cover the last 120 miles to get me to my home airport. Six hour delay on the tarmac, held as a pseudo-hostage on the plane. In theory, the flight could have saved an hour vs. driving. In reality, it was 4 hours longer. Never again.
(Flamewar about how goto is sometimes cleaner in 5...4...3)
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Yet _another_ reason why I refuse to fly anymore.
Thanks!
Why oh why do we not have transcontinental high speed train service in the USA??? Have you ever traveled through LAX during the holiday season? Our current situation is comparable to having only one pipe for High Speed Internet access. We need more options. We need to quit bailing out the automotive industry and start subsidizing our rail network.
if they are going to charge you unless you get your luggage last-
you ought to get $ back for flight delays- fair is fair right? our time for their time-
considering the abysmal regularity of on-time flights I don't think that they would go for it-
This reminds me of when my family was flying out of Zanzibar. The baggage people claimed not to have time to search all of our luggage before the flight, but for a $5/bag processing fee (payable in cash to the conveyor belt attendant), we could ensure that they got it done on time.
Maybe whenever I miss Africa in the future, I'll just need to take a local flight to get the same feeling.
This is the same airline, after all, that has jammed coach/economy seats closer together than ever before, and charges extra for "premium economy", which is the same cramped spacing that used to be just plain economy. I was subjected to this on flights to/from Denver this past May (with inconsiderate carnies in the row in front of us), and the experience was the last straw for United in my book - I won't fly them again. Another poster mentioned America West. I flew them once - never again. The interior was *dirty* and a number of the panels with the lights, air, and presumably O2 masks weren't fastened and were hanging at odd angles. They played a goofy game with my "meal" too. As for meals, I'm happy to see them go, as the rate of airlines providing the requested meal had decreased to maybe 20%.
> "including making economy passengers pay a fee unless they want
> their luggage to come last off the plane."
I wonder how Wall Street will react to him being CEO of United after people start thinking, as of today, "Hey, I'm not buying United tickets anymore...just in case."
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Now, they do this.
This is just another reason I will no longer fly Untied Airlines. After this, what few miles I have left can just go to charity, and I'm flying Alaska or Southwest from here.
This sig no verb.
You from Portland by any chance?
1. Moving away from the extremely fat smelly guy guarantee.
2. Sitting in the "Baby Free" flight.
3. Super Model Mini Skirt stewardesses.
4. Gold Standard Hand Jobs
5. Mile High club voucher.
6. Oxygen Masks and Flotation devices.
7. A seat.
8. Pilots.
Only in your fantasies.
Hell, even if you did have an airline where no one brought carry-on bags, it'd still be miserable and cramped just because of the tiny seats.
What this country (USA) really needs is a high-speed rail network, so that people can travel between cities on fast trains. If they could get the speeds to 250 mph (typical for fast trains in other countries), the time for trips would only be twice as long as for air travel, and actually less when you take into account how much time is wasted standing in line at airport security checkpoints. However, the vastly increased comfort would so much make up for it that people would happily buy train tickets instead of airline tickets. Plus, the costs should be much cheaper than for air travel.
>>You don't get what you pay for... if you shop poorly that is and expect the world... companies are in the business of selling; if you have inferior coverage or poor service, it is because you CHOSE those options. one should also not expect to be treated like a king while paying the fees of a peasant. you want king like service, you need to shell out king like dollars. you can't expect to pay %24.99 a month for DSL and then get a team of people making $40 a hour using million dollar equipment at your beck in call 24/7/365 even if the verizon commercial says you do. an insurance company will sell you a policy to cover ANYTHING, you just have to pay for it; they are in the business of selling policies afterall. who here doesn't avoid their insurance agent because they are always trying to suggest additional coverages - the ones you find out you should have listened to him about when the hurricane of the century takes away your home. if you can't afford the insurance that you think you need on an item, then you can't afford the item and shouldn't have bought it in the first place; there is no excuse. no one on a T-1 line ever complained about getting throttled. you want T-1 service, buy it. those of us paying 25 bux a month for 'unlimited' service are getting a fantastic deal as we are wringing the value out of all those grandmas who use as much bandwidth in a year that we use downloading one file. we are fortunate that it is more difficult to market and sell metered service, otherwise we'd be paying the big time dollars. if you want your phone working now, you can pay for such service... do you think Oprah waits 2 weeks for a phone technician? even better, do what people who say they must have full time utility service do, they purchase backup systems. it is a known truth that services fail, have a backup and you'll do just fine. don't like how the airlines handle your flight? well if it is important enough to you, buy or rent a private jet. you'll soon realize the extraordinary value your getting for a $150 airline ticket. health care costs are ever increasing because your life and health are important, they should be expensive. costs also continue to rise because most people treat their bodies like a Superfund site and hence the cost of cleanup is astronomical when they finally acknowledge and deal with the problem. people have ever increasing problems paying bills because they are lousey financial planners and managers. americans in generally vastly overconsume and overborrow for consumables that no one forces them to purchase, so they CHOOSE to end up in this predicament. don't want to be poor? don't spend more than you got, very simple math involved....
'cHANCE favors the prepared mind' Louis Pasteur
You know, this afternoon I got a hastily-sent email from some close colleagues who were preparing to abandon their home and business to the fire in San Diego. One of these days something equally bad will happen to you. When it does, you're going to think back on just how inane your post really is. The really sad part about it is that you've swallowed, whole, the concept of "value" that the robber-barons want to foist on you. You're to be pitied.
"Here's what's happening. You're starting to drive like your Dad..." - Red Green
I think you may have found the first worthwhile application for RFID.
Somebody call Starkist!!
> "Would you like your bag to be handled
> extra-carefully? For a small fee we can make sure
> your bag doesn't get dropped or run over by a
> baggage cart, or maybe show up with the handles
> wrenched off. Heh-heh."
Have you checked your baggage before?! I would give my left arm for a service like this!
Until that time, there were straight jets such as the 707 and DC-8 (I guess you could also include the British Comet, but that was even earlier yet but more limited in its usage), and you were basically talking about very long-range planes operated out of major international airports (JFK, O'Hare, Heathrow, Frankfurt) with very long runways.
The 727 essentially created widespread domestic jet travel, not just between New York and Chicago but to Grand Rapids, Michigan or Madison, Wisconsin and such. It had fan jets that improved fuel economy on the shorter hops and gave it something more than that agonizing rate of climb of the early straight turbojets, it had "air stairs" in the back to board passengers at airports with rudimentary facilities, and it had rear engines, which allowed the entire wing to open up into a massive high-lift system. I remember riding on 707-320's (the turbofan 707), and the 707 lacked the leading edge droops and slats, and it had a relatively smaller amount flaps that had to be extended so far down that you could watch them flutter during short final.
I had talked to some flight instructors about 727's and jets and general, which seemed to come in way nose high compared to the kind of approaches one did in a propeller GA craft. When I was taking lessons, these guys were all trying to qualify for flight engineer jobs on 727's to get on the airline captain career path. I was told there was a procedure for landing (yes landing, not taking off) a 727 on one engine. I expressed surprise at this and then was told that a 727 landed at a pretty high percentage of takeoff power -- they make the final approach "on the back side of the power curve" pretty much "hanging on the engines."
Come to think of it, part of the 727 flying experience was that just as you were about to land, you would watch the wing come apart into droops, slats, and flaps, and you would hear the engines rev up that always reminded me of the sound of my mom's old GE vacuum cleaner.
Anyway, the 727 has a reputation of a very high rate of descent with all the flaps cranked out without engine power to counteract its rather draggy high lift system. I have watched other planes, 737's especially, and none come in with as nose high an attitude on landing approach with quite as much cranking up of the engines. I can imagine that someone with propliner experience could have problems in the 727, especially in the early days before the instructors also developed experience on what to warn pilots about, and I am thinking they must of crumped more than one 727 (i.e. not a crash, but landed hard enough to break something).
uuggghhh
the problem with america....
we are all such victims - boo-hoo.
nothing is our responsibility - boo-hoo!
the big white man is out there trying to hold us back - boo-hoo!
so and so is too rich and they don't deserve it - boo-hoo!
every business is just out to rape us - boo-hoo!
i don't change my tune just to fit my newfound situation; another sad american trait
why does something bad need to happen to me to appreciate being financially responsible or making sound choices?
i hardly see how running from a fire, a well known danger in southern california by the way, has anything to do with this. i would say anyone experiencing a fire should be thankful an insurance company offered them a policy, i know i have been very grateful to have a few thousand in policy fees replaces tens of thousands of dollars in personal property. i guess someone forgot to tell my insurance company they are evil and are suppose to screw me sideways at every opportunity.
it is a simple reality that your socialist ideas don't work and make everything more miserable if not eventually collapse. you have to pay for value, pay that funds salaries and materials and drives innovation amongst other things.
i do wish the world was a utopian shang-ra-la like the next bloke, but i grew up and learned to start living a responsible existence; it is better for me and better for you too.
'cHANCE favors the prepared mind' Louis Pasteur
For chrissake, this thread is now four days old. It's growing a beard. Go find another ancient thread to pontificate on.